Advisors for Change: Boosting business by giving workers a stake in the future

[Music] Welcome to you both. It's great to have a chance to talk to you. It's been a a bit of time since I was in Zoom calls with you all as we were kind of going through the work, but I'm wondering if first you could just tell me your name and your role at the company Advisors for Change. Maybe Amy, can we start with you? >> Sure. My name is Amy Mcperson and I am the CEO of Adviserss for Change. >> I am Crystal Thompson. I am the senior software solutions advisor here at Advisors for Change. >> Amy, I'm wondering if you could tell us more about Adviserss for Change and how the organization got started. >> Sure. Advisors for Change is currently a fully virtual uh organization that works exclusively with nonprofit organizations, helping them with their financial management. Um we do all kinds of uh support for mostly community-based nonprofits uh helping them uh really build their own capacity for financial management. So we really see ourselves as um escalators for their uh for their growth and um I started AFC in 2006 and by myself just knowing that there were not enough accountants in the world and there are definitely not enough accountants who are focused on helping those small nonprofit organizations. So my goal was to help as many nonprofits as I could help to grow their accounting function and uh I did that alone for the first 10 years of AFC before we grew um and started adding more team members and it's been great to grow to now we're 19 folks and we're helping hundreds of organizations a year. >> Oh that's awesome. Crystal, I'm wondering if you I'm going to put you on the spot here with the question, but I'm wondering if you could tell me what about the work at Advisors for Change really kind of keeps you there, animates you. >> Yeah. Um that's a great question, David. Thanks. I think um the main thing that kind of gets me out of bed and into the virtual office um really is the work that we knowing that the work that we do is going to help that these organizations that start with such great valuedriven missions being able to have less focus on the detailed work that you don't get into these kind of businesses wanting to do but know that it's a part of it. Um, but we get to, you know, alleviate some of that so they get to put a lot more focus into doing and completing their missions and while knowing that they're financially sustained. >> Yeah, that's super helpful. Um, as somebody who started a couple nonprofits, I I totally hear you on that and and know the value of the work you all do. Um, Amy, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit about how you first heard about employee ownership and what drew you to this movement of employee ownership and maybe you can kind of talk a little bit about what the journey was like for you in that regard. >> Yeah, thanks David. I um didn't know anything about worker own co-ops. I had heard the term ESOP. I vaguely knew what it was and I'm in accounting so I think a lot of people, you know, might be surprised that I really didn't know. But I um had always worked in nonprofits. I had never worked for a for-profit till. So I started my own business. So I was used to a business model that's run by a board that has a governance structure that shares leadership and management responsibilities that thinks about internal controls and and division of labor. And I'd never I was never super comfortable with the notion of owning a business as the sole owner. So, we've always at AFC worked in a collaborative fashion or more collaborative than a lot of small businesses just because that's that's the water I always swam in. But in 2021, I got serious about what's my exit strategy? What's my future look like? We were up to 15 or 16 people and I was like, this is 15 or 16 families that depend on AFC to be here and you know, what am I doing to make sure that everyone's going to be okay? um no matter what my choices are for my life. And so we made a goal in 2021, me and the leadership team to figure out some way to share ownership of the company. And we literally that's was the goal was set figure out a way to share ownership because we didn't know. We were lucky to have a member of our team who had worked at a co-op before and she had a friend who uh worked at a organization that supported worker own co-op. So I met with him, got some recommendations and got connected to project equity um and never looked back. And we did go through the assessment process to determine which would be the right form of of uh employee ownership for us. And really with with your help and your colleagues help, we came to the worker own cooperative was the most obvious for us because of its parallels with the governance structure and how nonprofits work that it was really a natural fit for us. Well, that's awesome. Yeah. So, you alluded to some of the work that we did together. Um, here at Project Equity, we have kind of three key programs. The first two that you experienced at first were our feasibility work where what we do is we work with a business and a business owner usually to identify if it's a viable business for employee ownership. We're trying to understand kind of the debt capacity analysis, what type of loan payments the business could take on and if it's a good fit for employee ownership and what form of employee ownership. Then what we do is we move into the transition work and that's when I had the chance to work with you all. And that's where we move a business from ownership by maybe one or a couple folks into broad-based employee ownership. Can you tell me what that process was like going through the process of converting your business that you own to being owned by the employee base? >> Well, initially it was scary, right? Because I was the unknown and I didn't know and I was really grateful for the support of Project Equity. We had before we hooked up with with for the feasibility study, we had realized like we needed we did some homework and uh worked to build our profitability, work to kind of build a stronger balance sheet and reserves to kind of make sure the company would be ready for it. So, we were thrilled when we did the feasibility study and and it was determined we could move forward because we were afraid we might have to wait another year or two, but we were really grateful for that help and support. And from that point forward like we we knew that we would have project equity support and that made it all feel possible. So we set an ambitious goal to convert the year after the feasibility study and you know again with your help and uh and really the work of the set of employees who formed our transition team we really accomplished an enormous amount. So any fears I have had going into the process were were really uh diminished by the fact that a we you all gave us a roadmap to get there and b we formed a committee of incredibly capable, talented, engaged, smart people who work at AFC who really came together to do an enormous amount of work to make it possible. So, credit to Crystal and the other members of that team that um it I did a lot of work last year, but it was everybody working in parallel but not together with Project Equity holding us together that that really made it possible. >> Yeah, it was such a teamwork approach from you all and then us partnering with you. Um Crystal, I'm wondering before we kind of get into like what it was like the conversion process to employee ownership. I'm wondering if I can take you back to a moment in time when Amy, your boss at the time, presented the idea of becoming employee owned business. What was that like for you? What came to mind? Just if you could kind of paint a picture for us what that experience was like. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, as Amy mentioned, that idea kind of was presented to the team end of 2021. um beginning of 2022. I started with the company at the end of 2021. So um for me it was just a whirlwind of excitement along with confusion and uncertainty. um because we were stepping into a space where kind of none of us really knew what was to be expected but we knew what the ex what the you know what the outcome we wanted the desired outcome was and what it could be. Um I would say I'm had been with the company not too long but it was pretty easy to feel faith and trusting what was happening. Um, everybody on our team really believed that whatever decisions Amy and our um, executive team came to were full of, you know, conscious thought and taking everybody into consideration. There was no hesitation in accepting this was the going to be the right way for us. Um but then it also kind of put a little pressure on us to you know myself and feeling like okay well what does that kind of look like for me if now I'm being presented an opportunity that um could potentially be you know something life-changing for my both myself and my family. So um given that opportunity and responsibility we didn't take lightly and that's why I kind of decided to join the transition team to help guide that. Yeah, it's interesting you talked about the potential impact for you and your family. That that's fun to hear because somebody that's why I do this work is the belief that this can really broadening the ownership structures can really impact folks. And it's fun to hear that that was part of your kind of hope the beginning. Um I wonder if you could both speak to what it was like working with an outside partner like Project Equity on this process or on this journey towards employee ownership. Well, for one, I would say you all Project Equity really made it I I hate to say the word easy, but it truly did feel like an easy process because of the amount of guidance and wisdom so you so freely offered at every meeting. We were never felt like we had um to worry or think about anything because we knew we could always just ask and we were able to trust the information that was given to us. Um it was relayed with such grace that and we feel that you really helped kind of meet us in one of our pillars is which is meeting people where they are. And we really felt that you guys were um that Project Equity really was great and kind of meeting us where we wanted to be and knowing that we had a very ambitious timeline. um that it took some time to, you know, develop that mutual trust that we were, you know, committed to each other. And we really think that, you know, a part of all of our skep aside of any skepticism or you made it a really safe space to be able to freely ask questions, come with any um a very mutual space to have any of those conversations that may have been a little bit more difficult to come to a consensus on. I think Eve, you were had an invaluable ad of just wisdom and experience that allowed us to be able to consider multiple different sides of things in a space that we've never been before. >> Yeah, I I completely echo what Crystal said. I'm a little jealous that I wasn't part of the transition team because I think they got an amazing experience. But from my perspective where um our work was probably a little more pedestrian and we didn't get to be as ambitious uh because it was more about like what what's what's going to stop happening here as opposed to what's the future look like. I still I there's no way to have done it without your support because it really took kind of that honest broker in the middle to help answer the questions. And I think the thing we really we benefited from all the resources, all the reading, all the clear materials. I think I'm with Crystal. It wasn't easy, but it was super clear. You were very, you had a nice process laid out. You said, "Here's the six stages." I'm like, "Great. We'll do six stages, one a month." And you're like, "Oh, I don't know." But, you know, we were like, "We're going to do it." So, you know, but it was clear. And if it wasn't clear, we there's no way we would have been able to do it as quickly. And I feel like the um that that really playing that role as the person who'd seen it before, the person who could say, "Oh, here's how another group has done it. Here's three different ways that other people have done it." Really gave us the confidence that we could uh you know that we could chart our own path and yet be true to the principles and really understand like how to how to be an effective cooperative. And I'll I'll say ironically like we do that a lot for our partners. I'm on a lot of calls with nonprofits and I'm like, "Oh, well, I've seen it done three ways, you know, three different ways. Here's here's what works and doesn't work about each and I understand the value of that advice." And there aren't so many people in this cooperative space who have as deep knowledge and experience as you specifically and project equity in general. So, we really really benefited from your expertise. >> Well, it was a joy for us too. Um, you know, one of the things I guess kind of using your framing there, Amy, we have worked with a lot of businesses. I've done this process with a lot of folks and there's often times a surprise, you know, and part of our role at Project Equity is to try to make a clear path, try to deal with or plan for all the potential surprises, but there's still going to be surprises. So, I'm just wondering if you could both speak to any surprises that came up along the journey, both good or bad. Um, are were there any kind of moments where you're like, "H" or, "Wow, didn't expect that." Crystal, maybe I I can looks like you might have an idea there. >> Yeah. Um, I will say that one one good surprise that came up was just the innate sense of people ready to step up into kind of that ownership space and have their voice considered and really lean into the fact that we were creating a space that was supposed to be um reliant on everyone stepping up. And we were a little as the transition team you you get a little unsure of whether or not um as any kind of elected official if you can say you kind of at one point you have to kind of question am I really being the voice of the people and I feel that um one of the best things where everyone's really in having their voice heard so that we could confidently make those decisions knowing that our team spoke up and and made their made their choices and their preferences clear. Um, one challenging surprise I'd say is understanding and learning the complexity of just like the governance structure. Um, you guys project equity really offered a lot of materials and thought into teaching the governance structure. So I will say that it was one thing that we probably took the most time in and offer the most kind of self-dedication time to be able to step up and make sure that we were all coming from a space of making decisions on the same level of understanding. And I think um while it was having things like the workbook um having set uh proposals into how to make decisions um again as Amy mentioned having um other employee owned cooperatives and being able to have one-on-one conversations with them as well as all of the different examples laid out for us again instilled that confidence to make those decisions regardless of that that challenge and how complex it I'm happy to say no no no negative surprises. Um but to me the biggest surprise was how effective the transition team was and again I was got a little jealous like they have these great meetings and these great conversations and they developed a whole consensus uh development process that we are now using organizationwide in our new formation. And um really that was the biggest surprise to me was not that I should have been surprised, but I just didn't I didn't know how that was going to play out. I didn't know if it would get contentious. I didn't I I expected there might be some, you know, tough moments of disagreement between the transition team as the buyer and me as the seller. And that's an odd dynamic that we were, you know, ready to chart, but you know, also could be very fraught. And we didn't we didn't end up having that. And again, I think it's because we did so much homework with you, each side, getting real clarity before we came together for those uh negotiation conversations. And so, yeah, so pleasant surprises only for me. >> That's great. So, one of the things that was uh I think speaks to the intentionality that I experienced with you all is you were very intentional and how you made the public announcement about becoming employee owned. And one of the things that you all did is you had an event and you recorded it and then you put this video together and it was one of the things in my work that brought me some of the most joy that I've had. And I'm wondering if you could explain that experience of what you all did as a group to kind of symbolize to kind of highlight this new moment you were moving into. >> I have goosebumps just taking myself back to that moment. And um credit to Crystal and the team and really Crystal individually for taking the lead on helping to craft that moment because we once a year get together. We're fully virtual, but once a year we have an in-person retreat that we take seriously also to spend time together, to bond, to have a chance to get to know each other as more than just boxes on the screen. and we made a we really really wanted to be through the the co-op process before we got to our in-person event because it only happens once a year. So, we did want to have a moment to mark the the successful completion of the transition team's work uh during that event last year. So, we saved it for the well, I'll say at the very first the very first thing we did at the very first meeting of that event was we gave everybody uh backpacks with the new cooperative logo on it to really say like we're doing this folks like this is not we are no longer sitting here talking about what are we maybe maybe we're turning this corner and we're going to do it and there were uh there were some legal things to complete and all of that but we so we we didn't meet our goal of having an actual legal document to sign at that event. But we invented a document uh to sign at that event. We held that for our final dinner. And I will say we had dinner three nights. We were in a rented house and every night the the energy at the dining table where we all ate together was like would ramp up another 20 or 30% every night. So by the time it was last night, the excitement was just palpable. So, we were already in a setting where uh people were just really talking to each other in ways that maybe they didn't before and they there were just like was a a buzz in the room that was a lot for 19 people to have generated and then that culminated in uh Crystal reading uh basically a commitment declaration and giving people an opportunity to sign their commitment to see us through to the conversion to a cooperative. And it really was an incredibly special moment and we have an amazing partner that works with us that does come to our events to take pictures cuz again it's so rare that we're together. So it was great we captured that and during that event she also interviewed people one-on-one to get their like real time impressions of what it felt like to celebrate that moment. Amy, I can only imagine that seeing the legacy of what you had built being transitioned into something that's going to continue to go on must have been amazing. Um, Crystal, I'm wondering for you on the other side of that, can you tell me what that experience was like there at the table when you were crafting this commitment statement and when you were signing? What was that experience like? was a moment of confirmation almost like a moment of affirmation that >> the work that we were doing and the time that we were putting in really, you know, that visual of everyone here is going to be affected by what's about to happen. And throughout the whole transition, our committee really, we had our own little what would Amy do kind of was our our as she mentioned, you know, building our consensus. That was the main pillar of our consensus bill. You know, anything disagreements that we have was really down to what would Amy do because we knew the biggest part of our job was going to be maintaining the culture that was already here. we didn't have the um extra pressure of you know trying to recreate something or fix something that's broken. everything that we have we knew was just how can we put into legal words into the legal terms um what this culture really is and how it can be sustained and each of us really owned that space of it's not about what we would want individually it's about what is best for the collective because that's what Amy would do and that's exactly how our team is built on. I think we're very um we're very uh tuned into the space that AFC was created, the foundation that AFC was created on. And that's because of the transparency, the space that we get to openly speak to one another about discrepancies, to have our voices heard. they less they really don't turn into discrepancies when you give people an opportunity to say those things upfront and those are the kind of things that we wanted to be sure were captured and so in that moment it was a culmination of the the marathon that Amy started and 19 years ago um it was a moment in just a it was a mile marker honestly of um a space where you're handing off the baton but you're you know she's still running with us which helped a lot in that as well. So knowing that we were stepping into a space that those signatures weren't the one thing I want to note is that we didn't tell people that this was going to happen. So, we didn't have membership agreements yet as as Amy mentioned, we weren't um legally solidified, but it was a moment of faith and um the anticipation what Amy would be the first signer and we would invite people to sign without pressure and every person got up and signed and then consecutively after membership actually opened and we were solidified, every person signed up for membership. So, I just got goosebumps in that moment. >> I know. >> Everyone trusted the process and now we're co-owners and it's amazing. >> Oh, that's awesome. Um, so that was kind of a symbol of that moment of converting the business to employee ownership. Um, you know, I work with a lot of business owners. I I talk with people all the time about this and I got to be honest, most people have assumptions about what a worker co-op is and that part of a worker co-op is that everybody gets together to make every decision and that's not how it is. That's not how you all function. You guys are folks that care about the bottom line, right? You really wanted to make sure this was an efficient process and that you want to continue to grow the business because that's how you'll all profit and that's how you all benefit. And part of that is having a business model that's agile and able to make decisions. And so part of what I find a lot of folks don't understand about worker co-ops is that you can still have and like you all have a very traditional leadership structure. There is a CEO right now that is empowered to make operational decisions. But yet on top of that is there's this board of directors that gives kind of that ownership that highle governance perspective and voice and not everybody that is on staff is on the board of directors. It's a group of folks that are on that on the board of directors. Crystal I'm wondering if you could tell me what it's like on a in a sense almost putting that hat on of governance cuz you are on the board of directors. Can you tell me what that experience has been like moving from being an employee to now representing the employees on this governance body to look at like highle strategic decisions and things like that? What's that process been like for you? >> It's been new. Um that's the biggest word to kind of sum it up. Being in the inaugural board is really an space of learning and unlearning. I think um it's as soon as you we've stepped into a space again we've had the luxury of having our CEO come over and be a part of not only the board but continuing in that space but with Amy there we know that our job is to really learn what's already there and how we can continue to build it efficiently and having the collective voice involved in those different decisions and so it's been um really a challenge of just being able to know what's going to take priority. I think our biggest thing is we're we are all invested into the future of the business. And so I think often times we can get into a space of what's the future going to be like and so it's it's really nice to be a part of those conversations to be able to have a note of what the future is like um in real time rather than you know in a normal um business where are you waiting for things to be reported out and you you know only what management tells you. We have a great space of transparency. So zooming out of like my day-to-day operational tasks lens and kind of speaking from the voice of the collective made me made myself kind of grow into how can I be more valuable to the team you using my space on the board and project equity gave us you know being in Thrive we get some additional resources and one-on- ones and learning modules that help with that, especially when we just had our um first general assembly. We do have two a year. So we did have our first one last month which went wonderfully and we were able to have that you know able to modify our working plan with Thrive to be able to have that general assembly module earlier than anticipated so we can accommodate for that which really kind of helped from the board perspective having the knowledge to make those decisions and feeling again with the confidence to make those decisions of making the agenda what we're going to talk about what membership needs to learn all of those things, you know, with the guidance of Project Equity, help the board really go into that. >> That's great. Yeah. So, Crystal, you're referring to our third program that we offer, which is Thrive, which is really the way I kind of think of it is it's day one work. Day one meaning the day you convert and you become an employee owned business. We believe that it's really important that you have somebody to walk alongside you just as it was important to have somebody that's kind of can give you some options, give you examples of things they've seen. That's what we do in Thrive. That's a two-year program where we're working with you all to help you live into that new reality. Um, so thanks for flagging that. It's always fun to hear that something's useful. Amy, I I want to pivot over to you. What has it been like for you seeing this business you started 19 years ago? because you saw a need in the industry for nonprofits to have support and you said this is a need I can fill and I want to fill it and you created this amazing organization Advisors for Change. What's it been like seeing it now being owned by employees? >> It is so much better than I thought it was going to be. Like it is amazing. It is. We had a board meeting yesterday and marked the fact that we were, you know, just past our halfway of our first year and um and we're doing it like we're feeling the momentum. We have uh developed so much and Crystal's being modest. She's played a huge role in driving the board forward. She like jumps in. It's like, "Hey, maybe we need a she like I got it. Here it is. I got you." So we have a anonymous feedback form for all members so that that goes straight to the board chair. So if anybody has any issue organizationwide, they already have a mechanism to uh to make their comment. If they want to get something on the board agenda, they have a mechanism for that. So we really there's there's so much we've already put in place to really walk our talk and open up open up the leadership. And it is so gratifying to feel I feel so free that I know this group has the ball if something I'm I'm getting old, right? If something happens to me, which I hope doesn't happen, but if something happens to me or whatever point in my life I I make a choice to retire or change, you know, what I'm doing as I as my kids are getting older and and my husband and I are thinking about the next phase of our life. It is so great to know that this amazing group of people, they have the ball. I totally trust them with it and I'm happy to stick around and give advice and do the work that I love to do. It's allowed me to do more more work directly with organizations again because I'm I'm freed up from from uh some of that management responsibility. But it's really been an amazing process and it's great to watch the emerging leaders really be able to lead and not just talk about leadership. And we we talk a lot about leadership. People lead clients. Crystal leads these complex implementations and her day-to-day work. I don't get to see that every day, but I get to see Crystal as a leader on the board. I even folks who aren't serving on the board, they found opportunities through committees or through other work to find their voice and uh and be leaders within the organization as well. So, we're good about sharing that. So, there's not, you know, there's not just now a couple of us that are leaders. There's really leadership opportunities for everybody, you know, in this model. And it's so incredibly gratifying. >> That's awesome. You know, one of the things I'm reflecting on here is I in doing this work, I've come to recognize there are usually three key stakeholders that I've kind of got in my mind as I'm working on a project. And those stakeholders are the selling owner, the future owner, and the business, the future business. And I feel that in our conversation, we've already kind of touched on you, Amy, as the selling owner and kind of what that experience was like for you, the benefits you've experienced about legacy and all of these types of things. Crystal, you've been able to talk about the hopes, the excitement of stepping in as a future owner. Now, you are an owner. So, there's another stakeholder here we haven't talked about, and I think we've alluded to it, and I'm going to I'd love for you both to reflect on this question, and maybe if anything comes to mind here. How has the business itself benefited from employee ownership or where do you see the potential benefits as the business? And I know that you both you understand spreadsheets, you understand the bottom line and so that's kind of what I'm getting to. What do you all think is going to be the impact of this for the business? >> Yeah, I think that as an employeeowned cooperative now, we kind of show up in our space differently. when we come to work each day now, we have an additional hat to put on as our owner hat. And I feel like people are taking that very seriously and being taking the opportunities to have their voices heard and lean into that shared governance structure which is allowing us to have more confidence in the work that we're doing with our partners. And throughout the whole transition, we've always been told by, you know, Amy to the best thing we can do is to maintain doing the good work that we're doing and we would be able to see that benefit. But now I it's really a general feeling of we're going to do that and more and people are being more collaborative, more involved in making different committees and having opportunities to co, you know, cooperate and network and learn each other even more because we're in really investing into our internal controls and into our leadership. And that strength and leadership will only make our business grow. And we are already seeing that with referrals coming in and um you know the difference in our projected financials to where we are. So I think that it's it's truly building us. It's not just operating off of one person's vision anymore. You really feel that it's like a collective building for our company. >> That's awesome. Amy, how about you? How have you seen or do you see the potential for the business to improve or be impacted by employee ownership? >> So many things to say and I try and pick the best ones. One is when we made our announcement, the organizations we work with, we're universally excited. like it really speaks to the folks that we work with that they understand they if once they understand the model they really appreciate um that they're working with a coll a collaborative group of people and that where we're walking our talk right and so by being a co-op and saying yeah whoever you get on our team they're a part owner in this business and that really speaks to a lot of the organizations we work with and has been also given us a competitive advantage in some of the um RFPs we've done to get new work. So, we still are exclusively working with nonprofits, but we've toyed with the idea of maybe also helping cooperatives. Uh we need to learn a little bit more about it ourselves from an accounting perspective. But, uh we definitely in our space, the nonprofits we work with are often very attracted to this business model as opposed to the more traditional. So, that's made a that's made a difference. And I we just did our midyear financials and for so this is for the first six months of our first year. We set our goal to be what we had set out in our five-year planning as part of the financial modeling that we had done with project equity. And I'm happy to say that our forecast as of the middle of the year is completely on track and is expected to exceed uh that first year plan. And the thing that's most striking to me is our growth over the last five or six years has counted on adding one to three new employees per year. And because of the cooperative change and we thought it might be, you know, we were we didn't want to bring somebody in in the middle of the process. Um we haven't added a new staff person since May of last year. And so now we're six months into this year and we our revenue is up. I don't know the percentage. I'm an accountant. I should know. that our revenue is dramatically up without adding more uh capacity from a by hiring more employees. It's up because people are invested and engaged and we're able we've been focused this year on efficiency. So yes, AI maybe has a little little role in that, but mostly it's people fi people working hard to find ways to be more efficient because they understand the impact on the bottom line uh and how that helps all of us. So, which isn't to say people weren't previously trying to be efficient. It's just as Crystal said, the mood is a little bit different. The when someone sees that opportunity, they know they can speak up and step into that opportunity as opposed to being like, "Oh, well, Amy might not like this opportunity, so I'll just keep keep it to myself." So, I, you know, I love the dynamic where everybody feels empowered. We've worked hard to build a culture of empowerment, but this again, we're now really walking the talk. It's not just, you know, it doesn't feel like lip service if it ever did. Hopefully, it didn't, but now it definitely isn't because everybody's invested in it. And I'll say one other thing, which is Crystal's right, our number one messaging to people as they were like, I don't know what it means to be an owner. We've said the number one thing you can do to help this business is do your work the best you possibly can do because our business is built on referrals. So, you do good work. They're, you know, they tell you people and so on and so on. So, it's really really um we we pride ourselves on being a high quality service delivery. We are responsive accountants. We're collaborative. We have a collaborative approach. We're kind of an anti-ac accountant accounting firm. And so, we really having people take pride in their work and know that they've got that two layers that they're doing it as the owner and they're doing it as the employee and the colleague. Three layers. It's really great. I mean it's really made a difference in our bottom line and I think it's going to continue to uh have have a positive effect uh financially and the conversations we've been sharing financials with the organization with everybody with on the team for the last five years. But Crystal's right, like now it's much more comfortable to get into the granularity and here's our average price per per client and here's, you know, how we're generating revenue and here's where we're choosing to spend money and get feedback on that. It's it's a different level of interest when everybody knows it's their money on the table uh that we're talking about. >> Oh, this is wonderful. It has been so amazing to be able to hear both of your experiences on this journey. Um, you know, I've worked with a lot of businesses. I continue to, but I don't always get the chance to have this kind of a conversation in retrospect where I'm kind of hearing what employee ownership is showing up like for you all. And what I I guess I'd like just to wrap here and say like it is so clear to me that Amy, you had a vision that you moved forward on that vision. You took some risks. You took some steps. you pulled folks alongside and you lived into that vision of employee ownership and then it invited folks like you Crystal to come alongside to also step up to become on member of the transition team to be on the board of directors and and what I'm hearing from you all is that this goal of really finding a successful approach to transitioning a business that can benefit all three stakeholders the selling owner the future owners and the future business have really happened and it's really materializing and this has been just a a gift for me to hear from both of you about this experience and you know we're going to keep talking. We're in Thrive together. I'm sure I'll be talking with you all as uh we continue to go down this road together. But thanks for your time today. This has been really wonderful. >> No, thank you for the gift of of your support. I I really we wouldn't be anywhere without Project Equity and we really benefited from again working with you directly. It's been a great journey and we're we're the the enthusiasm for our future as we now embark on a collaborative strategic planning process that we've never done before is really really exciting. So, we've got a lot to look forward to. >> Oh, that's fun. >> All right. Well, hey, thank you both. >> Thank you, Crystal. >> Thank you so much, David.