All It Takes Is One Mistake

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week in our final taping of the Year Paul Jay and William discussed the impact 2020 has had on their businesses and on themselves William talks about the positive side of getting back to a startup mentality it's definitely been a silver lining in the middle of a very dark cloud he says Paul talks about trying to offer his employees a good place to work for as long as he can I can give them probably another 10 years he says and then beyond that I don't know what will happen and Jay talks about the cash management mistake he made heading into the crisis that could have been fatal if I wouldn't have gotten the PPP money he tells us I don't know even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will if nothing else let owners know they are not alone in facing these challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which you can subscribe to at 21h hats.com and where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes when we resume taping in January we're going to be more intentional about soliciting and responding to your feedback we want your comments your suggestions your questions and they can be about your own business or about Karen's Paul's Jay's Williams Dana's Laura's or even mine 21 hats send them to me at L Feldman 21h hats.com or you can simply reply to your morning report email this week's lineup features Paul DS who is founder and CEO of Paul Downs cabinet makers which is based outside of Philadelphia and makes custom conference tables J gold whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home and William Vander bloomen who is CEO of Vander blooman Search Group recruiting firm based in Houston that works with churches and other faith-based organizations the episode is titled all it takes is one [Music] mistake welcome Paul Jay William to our last podcast taping of the year and and uh what a year it's been I thought we'd take a look back with three questions I want to ask each of you uh one's about positives you're taking from this year ones about strategies you might be changing as a result of this year and and ones about how all of this has uh affected you personally uh but let's start with looking for Silver Linings um William let me start with you early on I there was a time I think in March or April where you joined our podcast directly from a a a zoom layoff that you had conducted um which you went on to describe to us uh I got to imagine that was one of the low points for your year happily in in recent weeks you've told us that year uh things have picked up and you're expecting a very busy year uh next year can you give us a sense of uh what positives you're taking away from this you know Lauren I am uh hopelessly optimistic so I probably dysfunctionally look for the positives for us as a company as we hit the 12 and a half year mark or wherever we are we you know we're we're not built for high growth we we don't do investors we don't do uh debt it's just we move at the speed of cash and that is nice but it can lead to you know high growth requires severe agility right and if you get into steady growth which I'll take all day long I think our agility can get stifled if we're not careful so the pandemic actually forced us to live out our core value of of ever increasing agility and man that day I will not forget and I don't want to repeat it but after those layoffs and restructuring everybody had to kind of pitch in all the things that happened it felt like we were startup again all the things that happened as a startup where everybody kind of has a job description of other duties as necessary everybody had to just learn as we go uh down to shifting our Focus to since nobody was hiring in March and April we had to learn what to do and there's no search to do and so we sered people helping them get their PPP loans we set up leadership resources for reopening churches and schools and and it just forced us back into startup mode which had a benefit of reminding me of my need for agility and and also also the company as well don't want to live there forever but it's definitely been a silver lining in the middle of a very dark cloud Paul when you joined the podcast uh you were told us you were expecting your sales to collapse happily that didn't happen uh but you've also told us several times recently that you still think the the worst might be ahead and you're being very careful going forward what what positives if any can you take from this year probably the the biggest surprise posi surprise for me as a as a business owner was that the government sprang into action in March with the PPP program and basically did the right thing and executed on it and saved all the squabbling about it till after the benefit had been handed out like I never thought I would see that from the United States government um at a company level our sales did not utterly collapse although they have definitely staggered uh I think that the biggest positive is that the way I ran my company before this crisis has served me well throughout it I didn't have to change direction as a leader or do anything different with our company culture in order to get people to be committed to uh doing a good job I mean my my thing has always to been to be extremely honest with my people about what I see coming ahead whether it's it's good or bad so that they're they're never surprised and that has worked out very well Jay how about you what have you got you know what I'm glad Paul reminded me of the PPP money because I wouldn't have thought of it it absolutely was a game Cher because I got through the year and um we I haven't I haven't lost any people and our customers have been supportive in coming in and you know they say trying times test men's Soul well tests the company soul and I I'm extremely appreciative and feel good that we got through this and I really and people have certainly had anxiety and fear and and angst but we managed to get through the year okay and without the PPP money got tell you probably a very different story um but it's it's we got through it and we're looking forward to a decent next year but I have to add on another you said what's Silver Lining from this whole experience my business isn't the only thing I'm p about I'm also passionate about helping ENT entrepreneurship and I'm an entrepreneur junkie and I have to say that 15 years ago I was on the front cover of Inc magazine because of the small Giants book and I met an editor who was really engaged in small business and was really interested in it and wanted to help and that editor left there and went to the New York Times and I went with him and I had a great fiveyear run with him and I'm couldn't be more happy to say in that over the last 15 years he and I been trying to figure out how to get out there to more people and this year that editor Lauren Feldman owns 21 hats and that is the greatest benefit of 2020 I can think of so he here to you Lauren that we finally have a platform that we're going out there and for all of you listening if you've gotten anything out of this I would encourage you to send this to your friends and help that's all I can say I can't take anymore very nice of you thank you I'm dead serious people are going to assume I put you up to that no I didn't warn you who was coming because you know you're my colleague it might still get cut I'll have to listen to it and think about it well you're my co-conspirator and you're my friend and I couldn't be if I have to look at what happened this year that is the most significant thing that's that's the most significant thing Lauren Feldman is now the owner of 21 hats I'll second that I think you you've put together a great group of business owners and they provide a a set of perspectives that were not seeing in the ordinary media so congratulations Lauren that's nice of you to say I have to tell you you know I switched platforms for the the 21 hats morning report and as a result I have some new tools and I've been able to reach out to some of the people who get the report and who listen to the podcast and I've had a bunch of conversations over the last two weeks with some of those people and uh I got to tell you guys you you don't know how many many fans you have around the country who have been listening to every single one of these episodes and hanging on your Journeys and rooting for you all right moving on the next thing I wanted to ask you about is whether anything that has happened this year has caused you to to rethink the way you run your business to change strategy um Paul how about you I probably have more reasons to change strategy than than the rest of the group but um no uh I I've decided that I'm I'm living and dying with the conference table business and I do worry that it's a sign of of a uh inflexibility settling on my middle-aged mind but I just don't have a the desire to completely switch Direction and try to do something different at this point I I think that we'll be okay even if it's going to be a rough year coming up well a change in strategy doesn't have to be uh you know complete let me ask you about something specific thing because we we talked early on when you joined we talked a lot about your marketing and you told us some really intriguing things including the fact that you had stopped uh your pay-per-click advertising and that your traffic didn't go and your sales didn't go down so you just pocketed the money that you'd been the considerable amount of money that you'd been spending on that that um has your marketing strategy evolved since then when we had that conversation in terms of paperclick not much or or any other aspect well probably the the the one thing that we're putting some effort into that that may not be obvious is to get a GSA contract because we get so many orders from government buyers now and often we could you know we could make more sales if we could get through the Contracting process so I am putting significant resources into that uh which involves basically hiring Consultants to shepher our application through the process Paul jargon relief jargon relief tell everyone what GSA stands for everyone doesn't know okay GSA General Services Administration this is basically a way to get your products onto an easy to buy list for federal purchasers uh we do a lot of business with the Department of Defense and and basically all of the federal government and there's two paths by which a say a military unit can make a purchase one is easy if the product's on a GSA contract and the other one's more difficult if it's not and we've made a lot of sales the difficult path and I want to get on the easy path how hard is it to get on the list we're going to find out there are there's a relatively Arcane set of procedures and as my understanding is it's all going to boil down to our application is going to be set in front of a particular person in a federal agency to evaluate it and that person has to like what they see and uh so I don't know talk very price very price competitive yes well yes you have to be price competitive but here's one of the things Furniture is sold in such a strange way the pricing of it and I don't want to go into it but let's just say it's a way that that makes no sense but it's what everybody does so we have used a different way of pricing our work for as long as I've been in business because you would never come up with the way it's actually done by everybody else if you just sat down to give somebody a price well it's not just that it's Furniture though Paul right it's that it's custom furniture yeah that makes it more complex too because in generally the GSA doesn't like the IDE of custom things going on a contract so we had to kind of wash the custom out of our offering and uh yeah let's not go down that road this will take an hour to explain it and I'm not even sure what whether I got it right so okay um although I I love talking about pricing it's always interesting oh well you and I can have a have a nice long chat about about how Furniture is priced and uh it'll blow your mind William how about you have you actually change strategy as a result of what's happened this year we haven't changed pricing um and you know it's funny I've been waiting for 20 years I've been putting together the same Haggard old Christmas tree limb by Limb and because in Houston you don't get a real tree it just costs too much and finally this year there was a Black Friday sale where there was a real discount like everybody cut their prices this year we didn't so uh that's one thing we did not change a couple things we did change and I would I'm reminded by my colleagues here the PPP not only helped us just as a loan but it it almost doubled maybe even tripled our database because we helped so many organizations Paul you say didn't think the federal government ever do anything like that totally agree so um what that taught me was I've learned that that we need to be very strategic about something I'm calling the very top of the funnel which means things that we do that that might never show up on our software tracking system um you know PPP loans things that that just get people familiar with us without ever asking for anything and uh so we're we're much more intentional about that then during the Slowdown while we were living on the PPP money we were able to launch a couple things that we've not had time to launch in the past so we have a couple new service lines that are that are ancillary to search but they're very very helpful to our clients and frankly tend to be marketing efforts for us that are self-funding explain that uh well instead of spending a quar million dollars a year on sponsorships for this that or the other uh we run compensation reports for people we could charge more money we don't so we have a very thin margin on it but man people love us for that and end up coming back to us for a search so it's it's a it's a s rather than a a business line that's going to keep margins that make sense as a business on its own it's it's like no this isn't going to make us a lot of money but it's going to do some good and it's going to win friends and it will lead to more business let me ask you about one other thing you talked about earlier in the year William which is uh I think you took advantage of the uh the lull uh to shift Direction a little bit and add to your offerings and not just focus on executive Search but also to uh set up a way to help your clients with hiring lower level employees you in fact I think you started uh an entirely different uh company uh to handle those searches how did that work out for you so far so good um people are happy with the service um we set modest goals not knowing what to expect uh because who can predict what hiring is going to look like this year particularly in nonprofits and um we've outperformed all of those goals maybe we're bad at goal setting but uh you know it's a small offering that I think we'll grow in time and uh rather than just sit on our hands or moan our our people actually built something new that I think will last do you think it'll grow to represent a significant portion of your business going forward well I don't know what significant means but you know will it end up being uh 10 to 20% of the Top Line yeah yeah easily that's significant yeah Jay how about you have you changed strategies in any way this year I would say it made me refocus on I've learned there's five gauges on our dashboard or there should be obviously profits won't of them and too many of these younger companies I read about seem to forget about that uh growth if you're into it for sure growth um calculated risk um I've just you know I've realized I don't really want to take a whole lot more risk I don't need to with business is big enough um I'm leaving the biggest one for last uh Happy are you happy um I'm very happy things are like I'm happy with my employees I'm happy with my whole mission the last one I kind of always kept Ane I am but I didn't pay enough attention and it's the cash gauge and the cash gauge got messed up this year because I I kind of knew this but I didn't know it well enough you know I have a building I've talked about it before it's completely got no no mortgage on it it's worth good money and I figured well that's my dry powder as they say and that was a stupid mistake on my part having a building that's paid off is dry powder that's got basically it's it's got a keg that's nailed shut I have now talked to seven Banks and looking to get a very low leverage mortgage and um I believe I'll be pulling it off soon but when things go bad the banks hide under the table and the the they get more points for not losing money than for getting new business so I should have simply taken out a mortgage a couple years ago and left the money sitting somewhere and I'm paying the now luckily I got through the year fine and I'm actually in good shape for cash right now so I'm fine but I have never had money in the bank and I've always had credit and I am now it's absolutely change my strategy now of I'm GNA make sure one of the one of the the the traps of being an entrepreneur or even just for your own personal finances is thinking that if you pay off a mortgage you're going to hear wonderful music and life is grand and when you're in business paying off a mortgage might not be the smartest thing to do in my case it certainly wasn't and I've now recognized I got to pay more attention to the cash thing because at the end of the day businesses go broke because they run out of cash and so I I believe I'm about to pull this off I'm going to get a mortgage put the ca put the cash somewhere not spend it which is new for me but I'm not going to spend it I'm just going to leave it sitting there and that's a huge that's a huge change for me after 42 years I've never done that and uh that one little error of mine had I not gotten the PPP money frankly could have been the end ofy um and uh that's how business works all it takes is one mistake and that could have been a that could have been a fatal mistake do you really believe that absolutely if I wouldn't have gotten the PPP money I I don't know it would have been extremely difficult um I'm not saying for sure I would have gone broke but it would have I can tell you you know you were there you were in you were in the the cockpit when when the when the storm started April 30th I had some real oh oh man I've got I'm I was leveraged up on everything and I had no idea what was coming and uh I'm happy to report I'm in good shape now but it didn't have to go that way who knew that people would still be framing pictures during uh shutdown you know during this sit who knew that people would be buying furniture who knew as I recall at the beginning of the year you told us that you felt you'd made a mistake in not paying close enough attention to how much inventory uh framing inventory that your people were buying and you were way overloaded and I guess that you were you were probably low on cash at that point and heavy on sure that's why yeah that's exactly why I used up my credit lines I had a ton of inventory we buy from Italy and Spain and we were really heavy in inventory the irony is that turned out to be an asset because no one can get stuff from Italy and Spain now because they've had their shut down so the guy that's got inventory so that's part of why I'm doing well this year so I've been able to work my inventory down that's partially why I've got cash now I've worked my inventory down but so the problem really wasn't that I had too much inventory the problem is I hit too much inventory and I used up all my cash if I had cash having too much inventory isn't such a terrible thing you can always work it down but yes it absolutely ended up being an asset so what's your inventory strategy going forward going to be you know what I'm going to I'm putting more controls in place I'm going to manage it tighter but really it's the other end of it I'm going to make sure I got enough cash that it doesn't matter as much and that's what I'm working on I don't mind having a bad inventory turnover the problem is I've had a horrendous inventory turnover so I'm trying to go from horrendous to bad and bad will be okay what's a bad inventory turnover if I could get to an inventory turnover of two times a year the accountant people would say oh that's not enough you should get it to three okay I'm not selling commodities that I can quick order the whole idea of my business you know what my youngest son is getting involved in the business now and he's looking at the numbers Dad can't we just order in smaller quantities no that's the whole reason why we're successful we order from unique great suppliers overseas and that's why we have unique cool interesting products if I order the same thing that everyone else can get from a warehouse in wherever in three days I'll be selling the same thing everyone else sells so it's kind of part of my whole it's part of my whole business model we' got to sit on some and I have a big huge Warehouse that I bought for cheap we can easily Warehouse it and as a result like I said if I can get it to a two-time turnover I'm okay with that the accountants would say oh no you got to get it to three and the answer is no I really don't have to get it to three interest is cheap I've got a warehouse it's okay all right my last question for the three of you um and this one's personal this has been a remark Lauren Lauren just for just for reference sake what have you asked us it's not personal I asked Jay about his inventory that's not personal oh that is personal okay I stand corrected all right you're right William this one's really personal um and this year has been really something um I don't I don't think we as a country have even begun to process what we've been through and are still going through I mean in terms of deaths we're now experiencing the the equivalent of a 911 every day uh I saw a tweet the other day that listed I think the T 10 deadliest days in American history and several of them were historical events that we all know like 911 or Pearl Harbor but interspersed among those 10 were like Monday Tuesday and Wednesday uh it's it's this is the worst Public Health crisis in the history of the country and it comes with a devastating economic crisis that you guys know all too well uh I am getting to a question here um to some extent this question was INSP ired by something Williams said last week when he talked about why he expects lots of employee turnover uh in 2021 uh one thing he cited is that people have kind of looked death in the eye and are now questioning some of their assumptions about what they do and why they do it so that's the question I want to ask each of you uh has this year of anxiety and uncertainty and disease affected your view of what you do every day um William you got me thinking about this how about you I saw the same meme because I think the deadliest day so far is still the storm and galvon right here in our backyard in 1900 yeah so I I I'm growing this is a horrible pandemic in fact my very best friend in the world other than my wife is has just come off a ventilator finally and not in one of the high he's diabetic so I guess that's a coor bidity but but he's 55 he's you know not so I I don't want to minimize what people are going through it's been in my life so I I understand and I can't imagine losing a family member especially an untimely death so please hear all those caveats having said that I I'm getting a little weary of the word unprecedented Lauren I this is just not unprecedented uh the plague wiped out one out of every three people in Europe I mean that's a whole different calculus frankly when we came over here we wiped out about that percentage of the Native Americans that were here that's a whole different math and you know I've got church clients some on the fringes they're like we're being persecuted you can't get no you're not you're not being burned at a stake you're not being like I I think you ask the personal question how has this impacted me personally it's woken me up to just how fortunate and prosperous my life has been that shame on me for feeling like you know an eternal victim in the middle of a really bad year but nothing like what a lot of people have been through in the history of the world and so I I guess it's brought it spurred in me a more intentional effort to start every day with gratitude and uh I think when you were my editor at Forbes Lauren the most popular thing I ever wrote was how successful people start their day and and if you go study any faith any non-faith any successful people start their day with an a a ritual of thankfulness and I had to recover that and uh I had to kind of kick myself in the rear for feeling down about a a time where you know we've just been really really fortunate uh now the flip side of that I will say I know we've got listeners of all kinds of faiths I I happen to be Christian and we're moving toward Christmas as we uh record this I I did my morning run this morning it was speed workor right and so I'm wearing my airpods and I should be listening to like Rocky 3 or or some motivational like really cool pump you up song and instead I found myself listening to handle's Messiah and running really fast wait is he a fighter to handle Messiah exactly Rocky exactly oh Rocky six all right I just didn't see that one well it's not on the top of the motivational list like it threw Spotify off they don't know what to suggest for me now so you know but but the pandemic has pointed me back to my root you know like the the how and it's different for different people I get that so so whatever your faith perspective maybe this is a year where it's pointed you back to your source and how you see things going after you're here um it has for me and that's sort of taken the pressure off of me watching the Dow every 5 seconds or seeing what our sales numbers are Paul how about you how has this hit you I'm not sure I can I can top that honestly I think that it hasn't it hasn't changed me all that much and a lot of it has to do with the my particular personal circumstances that allowed me to just skate by a lot of the troubles other people uh were experiencing and I think in particular not having Young kids in the house is is just like just changes the whole equation that everybody I know who's got children and is trying to struggle with schooling and what to do with them then the situation is intruding in their daily life in a way that just didn't happen for me and uh um I've always had that perspective that that uh we could be so much worse off on any given day I mean the the electricity never went out and the financial systems functioned and you know we we saw we saw a j you saw actual riding in the streets but I didn't see anywhere I was and uh so I got to say that that I'm not all that changed it hasn't been forced on me so there you have it maybe I'm just a shallow guy but uh I've been able to slide by without having to to Really confront any changes in my person life fair enough Jay you spent a couple weeks in your basement um and and you tested positive for covid happily uh you were asymptomatic and you're fine did that have an impact on you yeah I made friends with a couple of rats in the basement and that'll be a lifelong relationship um I had absolutely no symptoms whatsoever but I certainly knew that could change and I had to deal with yikes what if I die tomorrow and I certainly you know it's 64 it's certainly like it does I I think I've done a good job of planning and I've got life insurance and blah blah blah but I I've came to realize that the insurance thing will take care of my family but you know what I don't want to hang this responsibility on myself or any other entrepreneur but uh it would be best if I could keep the company running if I drop dead and uh it be best for the employees be best for the customers so while I don't want to hang that responsibility on myself I'm going to do my damnedest to make that happen so my Revelation explain what you mean by that when you say you don't want to you're you're saying that you don't feel as though it is your responsibility to keep the company running Beyond you but that if you could do it you you would like to be able to do it yeah I want to be very clear with this I think as entrepreneurs we have enough responsibility our entire careers if you can call it a career and I'm not going to I'm not going to go and tell I'm not going to preach to people that oh no you have a responsibility to have a succession plan I don't think so I don't think that entrepreneurs I think it's a good thing I think it is a responsible thing I think it is a great thing but I just don't think that it's fair and I hate using that word but I have to it's fair to entrepreneurs to tell them that you've taken on all this responsibility your whole career and that now you have to make sure when you're dead you still have to take it on so I don't think that everyone has to have a succession plan I think it's a good thing I think it's a responsible thing but I think and we think we should I think we should try but um in my case I wasn't trying hard enough and now I realize that one of my kids is interested and old enough now and is a good number cruncher and I'm going to be involving him in the business more and have him be able to understand the inner working of the company that that if God forbid I drop dead tomorrow that that will be easier to transition and they'll have a good shot of keeping the company running and I I was kind of working on it but like I said not hard enough and if that one wouldn't work I I would have to think of another I I would try to think of another solution because this isn't anywhere near as simple as people think it is for those people that aren't in business well Jay want I'll just give you some of the quick responses I'm sure why why don't you hire someone bring them in a CEO and do what tell them oh you'll really be the CEO when I decide to retire that could be uh five years from now two years from now or 30 years from now I mean that's just not a reason who's going to take that job and I'm not ready I don't want to retire so that's a problem um oh Jay why don't you take one of your employees and uh you know groom them and um I don't know that that the people that are doing an excellent job running their part of the business have the education the mindset the desire the whatever to be the CEO of a company that's gotten to be a decent size so this is simple there's a reason why only 30% of businesses get to the second generation there's lots of reasons for that um one of them is sometimes businesses just run out of steam they I watched it with my father's Dime Store I don't think I'm in that situation um but you know over a 30 40 year period things do change and some companies are no longer you know as viable as they were when they started so it's very complicated and I'm working on it how are you working on it what have you taken actual steps yes he is going to my youngest son who's now 31 he's been out there he's done well with with real estate he's going to to be working here three days a week and still do some real estate and I'm going to very methodically and deliberately train him on every piece of the business does he know this yeah yeah yeah no he's totally into it and ready for it and anxious to do it and wants to do it if he if he said no I really don't want to deal with it okay I'd have to to come up with a different plan but that is my plan for the moment and it's uh uh I and I think it's a good plan we've talked about some of this before William we know you have plans for everything uh Paul I'm curious do you feel as though you have a responsibility to see that your business goes on Beyond you no I don't I uh I think about this a lot because I think at the root of it is a desire to take care of the employees and uh that's a big motivator for me every day um that you know like I sort of achieved all my personal goals in business I'm not filthy rich but I'm comfortable enough and uh and but I want I want my people to have a good place to work and the question is can I actually guarantee that in any way and uh I just don't think I can I just honestly don't think I can I can give them probably another 10 years and then beyond that I don't know what'll happen maybe I sell the company but then it's a different boss maybe maybe I don't sell the company and it shuts down and the question really comes down to if I gave people 20 plus years of of working in a good place and making a decent dollar and having good colleagues and doing good work was wasn't that good enough you know like there's always going to be a point when you're when you're going to lose control and you just can't control everything and I think uh a lot of entrepreneurs don't want to think about that because the lack of control implied in that could creep back to any point I mean they're just Control Freaks and I I like to control things but there's things you can't control and that's sort of how I think about it William we do know you you have those uh you know break glass when necessary plans uh for anything and everything do you feel you have a responsibility to see that the business continues Beyond you I think my responsibility is to make sure that the business doesn't rise and fall on my existence so if the business goes away fine but not because well William wasn't here and we can't get by without William all right if the business continues if I have a one of the nine million children I have wants to take it over and they do a good job with it then that's fine too uh if if it you know I I I'm not as I don't want to be the lid of our business put it that way I don't want to be the lid so there should be some plan that this could continue I mean we may get disrupted one day I maybe we aren't necessary forever I'm fine with that too I just don't want to be the reason the place has to close dear I say I think we're all on the same page interesting coming from different directions but kind of getting to the same place yeah but it's a healthy I just think entrepreneurs have enough we have enough responsibilities our whole working lives I don't think we need to carry it into death I think there's one other thing too which is that it's easy to believe that the employees you know are going to be harmed somehow if the company doesn't go on I think employees people are just more resilient than than we think they are and uh if they're not working here they're all good people they'll find something all right my thanks to Paul DS Jay G and William Vander blumen thanks for putting up with my personal questions thank you for sharing a very interesting year with me and and with our listeners thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess tharon founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman at21 hats.com see you next time [Music]