Are You Ready to Sell Your Business?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week Paul DS J gos and William Vander blumen assess the damage of a stressful year we start the conversation talking about the impact the year has had on their businesses are they worth less today than they were in January then we discuss whether the three owners have had enough would they be ready to sell their businesses if a generous offer were to come along that Prospect Jay says would likely cause him to do some soul searching but he imagines he would consider such an offer skeptically it seems to be a well accepted fact he tells us that people who sell their business 85 90% of them end up regretting it we also discuss as we head into budget season whether Paul J and William are planning to give their employees raises this year plus this week's morning report news quiz even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will if nothing else let owners know they are not alone in facing these challenges this week's 21 hats podcast lineup features Paul DS who is founder and CEO of Paul DS cabinet makers which is based outside of Philadelphia and makes custom conference tables Jay goz whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason Holm and William Vander bluman who is CEO of Vander bluman Search Group a recruiting firm based in Houston that works with churches and other faith-based organizations this episode is titled are you ready to sell your business [Music] we all know this has been a a turbulent year with the pandemic the economic crisis the election it's been a lot of stress on you on your businesses I'd like to start today by asking what impact do you think all of this has had on the value of your businesses how do you think your valuation your business valuation today would compare with your valuation in say January Paul do you want take a crack at it I think you could look at it two ways one being just a very straight EA calculation based on the profitability of the company this year as opposed to last year and assuming that for small manufacturing the it's going to be the value is going to be about three times the earnings then it went down by about a million bucks and uh and then there's the longer term question which is doing what I do is the market for the product going to be the same as it would have been without covid and I think it just remains to be seen too complex uh a set of equations about whether we Outlast our competitors as opposed to whether the demand for the product shifts in some way I just I couldn't tell you so I won't answer longer term when we first started talking to you in uh in June you were concerned about whether people were going to keep buying conference tables you seem a little bit more confident now is that right well we've had about a million bucks in sales since that conversation so some people are buying conference tables good to hear the ones who are seem to be as enthusiastic about the concept of meeting as as they ever were and uh so um yeah I mean now I have more information but I don't feel like I have enough to make a solid prediction as to what will happen next Jay how about you do you think this year has had an impact on the value of your business if I had some Metric to do it I would say yeah because just judging with my bank situation at the moment they look at retailers like like like we got leprosy or something I mean it's it's just remarkable and my business has been fine um the numbers I I'm actually doing just fine now but if I was to go stick it on the market I I just think that people read all these stories about his retail debt and that stuff and it's probably had an effect on things I'm confident I could get three different appraisals and they'd all be different because this is what I've been dealing with since the day I started my business there's nothing anything my framing business is 20 times the size of the average frame shop in America there is no metric for that um the furniture store unique a little unique and that I do a lot of web stuff I I don't think there would be any way of of coming coming up with a convincing number that somebody could prove oh yeah this is what it's worth in the market because I'm not sure it's worth anything in the market I've also concluded I could have a going out of business sale for six months and probably raise as much money as I would selling it so it's convoluted and I don't care William how about you do you think this year's had an impact on the value of your business um yes and no I think if I'm an investor looking at us well first of all I'm I'm less inclined to sell the business than ever um um because I I think that uh we we sort of won the Battle of the firstest if that's a battle if that makes sense you know within our little vertical of faith-based Industry we were the first executive Search firm and we won the Battle of the firstest and I think the the pandemic I don't wish business closure on anybody but it's happening to the few other people that try and do what we do and now we're going to I'm hoping and believing survive the battle of the lastest and and when this is all over however long that takes uh we'll be the only one standing in the middle of a market that's going to have more churn than ever like there's going to be a giant Musical Chairs game across every industry once this is over but particularly in in our vertical so if I if I were inclined to sell right now I would think I'm an investor that can get something cheaper than I need to pay for it but it's going to turn into a really good investment within 12 months um but as the guy that owns it that's just not not my play that probably didn't answer your question I I would say the raw value of the thing if I were looking to sell it would have been better to sell in January or February than today but ask me again in 12 months and it'll be better than ever so as as a way of kind of assessing the impact this crazy year has had on uh on each of you I want to ask a slightly different kind of question if someone were to offer you twice what your business is worth in cash would you take it how about you Paul uh I think the answer is is for me yeah and the reason would be that twice what my business is worth would be enough for me at my age which is 58 to sort of Coast into retirement early and um if I actually encountered someone who was willing to overpay for my business in cash um I think that's that's sort of a a miracle scenario so don't I wouldn't pass it up um the flip side would be you know like why wouldn't you do that and uh if the business wasn't worth enough for me to comfortably walk away and try to find something new then that would be a different answer or if I felt that the primary satisfaction of my life was coming to this particular business and these particular people every day and being boss of my own little kingdom and then the alternative of that is I sit alone in a room with my millions of dollars you know then maybe I wouldn't but uh I'm pretty confident that I could find a way to uh be satisfied and to take my skills to some other situation and help a new group of people so I probably would take that deal does that have anything to do with the stress of this past year no um I think the most surprising thing of 2020 to me has been that uh considering the the arrival of disaster after disaster I have not personally felt very stressed by it because it's never reached a level uh that compares to other stressful moments in my business life and what that you know to put it very simply never came close to running out of cash and that pretty much exactly my stress level how much money I have in the bank Jay how about you somebody offered you twice what your business is worth you know for me and this all very much parallels what Paul just said in many levels the first question is do I need the money would it change my life any and the answer is no I wouldn't have a nicer car I wouldn't have a nicer house I wouldn't travel more it wouldn't it wouldn't affect my life dayto day which gets to the second question of do I like going to work every day absolutely absolutely I talk to I have a few friends that have retired now and when I go out to lunch or dinner with them I I want to poke pencils in my eyes when I hear about oh I went to the senior center and I it's like oh really that's great and then and then it usually rolls into their prostate and I have no interest in in hanging out with a bunch of guys uh uh playing cards or whatever people which I'm not criticizing I have no interest in doing that I like going to work every day um third thing is I my kids my I think my kids have interest in it think I'm work I'm flushing that one out um I wouldn't feel great about my employee situation I'm not saying I wouldn't do it for this reason I would never criticize somebody for selling their business but I'd be leaving my employees hanging which I would rather not if I could and lastly you know there could be a situation where you might have a business that you think oh I'm going to get swallowed up by Amazon or I can't stay competitive and I don't feel that way at all I still feel I can be competitive so for all five of those reasons I have Absol no interest in selling out now if someone came and offer me some stupid number like stupid number like two three times would that would I have to do some soul searching yeah but I I and I don't know what I do but boy um you I've gone to seminars and stuff and this seems to be a well accepted fact that people that sell their business 80 85 90% of them regret it after they sell it I don't think I would do it but if somebody offered me a ton of money that would be quite a dilemma um but that's not going to happen so I don't lose any sleep over it William how about you probably not uh first of all you say twice what it's worth I mean what's it worth you know what is that number um you know I whatever you think it's worth well then let's make up giant numbers um you know for me Lauren I I think I I've been a Serial entrepreneur my whole life all the way back to 9 years old and being a paper boy that bought out the routes around me so I could redraw the districts there's a part of me that says if the right it would have to be the right buyer too I mean it's my name that's attached to the thing and and my whole reason for doing this company is for a cause and not not that's the primary driver not giant payday um so a lot of a lot of things would have to align but the but the flip side is I'm 50 which I hope means I've got a lot of life left and I'm I'm watching so many entrepreneurs fall prey to the idea of hey I caught lightning in a bottle once I can do it again so the number like if the cause were right and I believed in the people and I thought they could secure the work and make and take care of my staff I I would then also have to have a number that's big enough that I'm not going to have to work again because I'm not going to fool myself into thinking I can just go start another thing and it'll be another great idea I I've seen too many people believe that and and then end up oh my gosh what am I going to do for income for the rest of my life $12 million William William Robert Half calls and says you know we're looking to expand we already do this for a living or or some other firm that does that does what you do and this is a great Niche we love what you've done uh we treat our employees well we want to give you $12 million no that's easy W 12 million really I was thinking two million I'd be pretty happy wow okay William do you have any you said it would have to be enough money that you wouldn't have to do anything else if you didn't have to do anything else what Would You Do Well I Pro probably start some kind of nonprofit work I'd probably open some kind of coaching for the people I've placed over the last 12 years you know I'm getting old enough now that I've made enough mistakes that I can tell people what not to do and and a lot of the younger guys we placed are looking for kind of a higher level Executive coaching and uh they trust me so I'd probably do something like that I I don't know what about start a podcast everybody wants to start a podcast that seems to be their rage these days you think I've got a couple of those so that's you know I I don't know Lauren it wouldn't be sit still I just want to know that my family and that's not just Adrian and me it's I've got seven kids they're going to start having kids I'd love to be able to I'm a Believer uh that you know if you do really well you should be able to help care for your children and their children and uh I want to I want to be able to do that and $12 million isn't enough to do that well depends on what care for means I give a lot of money away Jay yeah 50 million 50 million oh God 50 it's not an auction yes it is that's kind of the point it's absolutely an auction there is a well not right here listen I I'll say this you know what's the line of not everything's on sale but everything's for sale I mean other than my wife and children there is probably a number where it makes sense and then I could go do great benevolent work and not charge anybody a nickel and have enough for yeah of course there's a number and I know what that number is I mean my financial planner and I are pretty clear on it but but it's probably not right now have any of you ever paid to have a valuation of your business I have what prompted why did you do it and how long ago was it um it was two three years ago and my business at the time had three stockholders my father my brother and myself and I owned about half and then the other two split the other half and my father was reaching an age when uh he was starting to to decline and I was anticipating needing a bank loans and uh I didn't really want to have him involved in trying to negotiate lines of credit or having to be a co-signer and just doing any kind of paperwork and uh so I bought his shares out and uh in order to do that I needed to have some valuation of the business as it happens there's a guy in my vistage group whose business is producing small business valuations for SBA Loans and he had a whole process set up and I was just like well I'll pay you whatever it was 600 bucks and put me through your process is that all it was $600 yeah because he's he's got it very much down to a science and um and it was I was looking for a low number at that point uh because I I'm I'm buying stock as opposed to selling so you know we put the numbers through his formulas and it came up with a relatively low low number cuz the business wasn't making any money we lost a quar million bucks in the preceding two years so it wasn't worth much how did your brother feel about the whole thing well I will say that that my father and my brother have been the ideal partners for the last 25 years which is that they're utterly unconcerned with how I run the business and if I feel like something is a good idea they're like go for it and mostly because neither of them uh have any Reliance on on my business business to support themselves and frankly to them the the amounts of money are pretty much a drop in the bucket so so that's easy but I wanted to be uh you know that's not everybody's situation but that's my situation there you have it just to be clear from what I know if you go hire an accounting firm or someone to do that from what I understand there add a zero to that I think I think an appraisal done is like 5 10 grand not I I don't think that that's the typical I don't think $600 is the typical price yeah I it may have been 900 but keeping in mind that this is a guy who does this for banks and it's it's it's like it's not automated but it's not yeah it's not intense Discovery I've read a lot of stories I've probably edited a few stories that suggest that business owners should periodically get evaluation Ju Just the way you get a physical that it's it's a good idea to know what your business is worth even if you have no intention of selling it uh in part CU it may turn up some issues that that you should deal with it doesn't sound like any of you um necessarily have followed that advice William have you thought about it at all you know I have a a golf buddy who does this store a living and uh back oh I don't know when we first looked at buying a couple of other search firms and we did buy one we went through the exercise and he just kind said hey let me just do this for you uh so I think Jay's right on the cost but uh we I got the friends and family discount and didn't have to deal with it um but the the valuation Jay's right it is with evid I mean sometimes it's Topline and maybe it's Topline times two but I think in our industry it's evida times a multiple and what changes is what is that multiple I mean there were some pretty crazy multiples right before the p pmic going on in the search World um you know 7 89X and uh you know that that that's not there anymore but it's just a very cyclical thing I've been to enough seminars to know and you know I'm I'm add I can barely sit through an hour long I have to tell you I went to W I paid attention for the whole hour because it was interesting and one of the things that they all say is the bigger your business to better the multiple you get to a $10 million 1520 million business you're e your mult on the EB but is going to be greater because there's more potential there so there is a science to it and Jay what what I understand and again I'm a recovering preacher right I have a religion and Philosophy degree and a master Divinity so what do I know right but I also hear it's not just the size of the uh company but it's it's a couple things one how much is the company driven by the personalities that are there and two how much is the revenue of company driven by repeatable technology and Technology multiples go up into the 20s and 30s I mean it's ridiculous and then if it's personality driven you got to have these four Partners here it doesn't work well those valuations go way down fast and then there's also do you have two big customers that make up 50% of your business that all you have to do is lose the One customer and the thing goes in the toilet so right our biggest our biggest customer is a little less than 1% of our annual revenue yeah I I would guess that Williams business is actually quite well posed for a good multiple because not only do you have a diverse group of customers but you also have that very strong plan for how to operate the business when you go and that succession plan and I think that people who are looking to buy a business are going to be looking for systems in place so that they can so that it will run without the founder I will say I have a pretty good friend who does quite a bit of merger and acquisition here in Houston and I talked to him about this a number years ago cuz he was encouraging me to I said I don't want to sell I don't want to sell I don't want to sell he said well you just need to be ready to sell I said what do you mean he said you'd be you'd be shocked the overwhelming majority of companies that think they're ready to sell don't have their accounting and their books in order make sure you're keeping and he showed me the standards but like keep your accounting and books in really good shape because that's where if you ever get to where you have to sell because of health or you want to sell or somebody comes along you you're going to you're going to make yourself much more attractive by having your financials in in very very good shape you know that's interesting because let me tell you from the front line here I've been paying to get a review from my accounting firm my 30-year-old kid started to get a little involved with the finances and he goes dad you realize that you're paying $25,000 for a review no I didn't realize that so I looked into it and the bank um I got the bank to back off of that they don't need it so I say to my accountant why am I my accountant of 22 years why am I paying $25,000 a year for review well you know it's good if you want to sell your company well I'm not selling my company it's certainly good for him though $25,000 a year but wait that was a review but not EV valuation right just a review they had send two guys into to sit in the office for for four days doing whatever and they've never found anything Sub in all the years keep in mind part of this is I have a CFO he's a CPA they never found anything that was that needed to be adjusted but they don't mind charging $25,000 a year extra and like you know what so what what were they telling you in that review were they just telling you everything was everything's okay yeah looks good looks good great $25,000 you know you do that for 10 years you just bought yourself a a condo in uh wherever you want it I mean you know that's a lot of money so I guess part of my point is it's really good for the professionals to run around telling everyone oh it's a good idea to do this oh yeah do this over here I have a phrase conscience uh uh Commerce over conscience sometimes the quote unquote professionals don't mind selling you a couple of extra bells and whistles that maybe you just don't need so it's Food For Thought don't don't you feel good that you you bought your accountant and a condo in wherever he was yeah right that's kind of the point no I really don't that's that's kind of my point you know and he takes me out to the country club once a year for their big event and that all you can eat and it's like I don't need that nonsense and let me tell you the interesting part of this for me at least having my kid come into the business to look at this you know what good for him he just saved me $25,000 a year and he's the one that goes dad do you really need to go to the country that whole old school thinking and when I hear about golfing buddies William to your point golfing buddies country clubs going to the basketball game this whole world of the professionals taking you out and whining and dining you what's it costing you I don't really need to be friends with accountant my I really don't I don't need to be friends with my insurance guy I want to get a good price I want to be serviced properly that whole world of getting whined and DED so that you no longer chop around for services is really good for them frankly well I'm not a member of a country club um not you but is your accountant or your lawyer a member of a country club if you ever you'd like you'd like my accountant she comes in and talks at me at about 350 words a minute for 20 minutes great she's in New York she's in New York Philadelphia but it cost me 2500 Buck bucks a year and uh I have a bookkeeper who does the basic things and uh it's very No Nonsense and I I don't think she's a member of a country club either so do you feel you have enough eyes on your finances keeping track of where you stand I mean I have both my eyes on my finances pretty much all all hours of all day so still sign every check and I know where every penny is and I project out payments and cash flow and all that yeah I'm not worried about it William do you have a CFO um no you had to think about it well what's your highest no no what's your well because it's a title I'm sure what's the What's the title of your head accounting person a controller I mean you have a Director of Finance okay which begs the question and what's the difference between a Director of Finance and a CFO right I mean which I I'm I don't know I mean and I have an accounting degree but they don't teach any of that stuff um I I think the the the thing that I missed for a long time that we've got now titles aside is uh the ability to forecast cash you know and that's not just a statement of cash or or read the p&l but like we we have a pretty lumpy business I mean we sell a rather large widget and we're not selling a bajillion of anything that's $10 and so how do you predict lumpiness and and um software has helped a lot and our director of finances outstanding so I I don't know what you talk your Director of Finance have a an accounting background uhhuh yes CPA yes okay so and I'm not baiting you I really don't know this in your mind do you have a difference between a Director of Finance and a CFO because I don't um you know this is just my perception but my perception would be a CFO is over an actual finance department which has many people in it and we don't have that and I'm learning Jay I learned this the hard way when we started the company this is so funny and there were just four of us we just started handing out titles like well I'll be the CEO and you be the COO and you be the CFO you know that sounds all fun but then people uh the business outgrows their ability and and you've got a problem and and the other thing that my co has uh done a good job of bringing to pass at our company in the last two years is you know don't just hand out High titles give people a path of progession so they'll stick around yeah because when you do the CEO and CEO and CFO you end up with an uh oh and we've all had not just that it's not just that Jay but it's it's like you know if you're a director well maybe one day you could be an EVP and then maybe after that you could move to a SE like there is a path of career progression in front of our people not just I get the biggest title because what's the difference so here's the Dilemma of the week inflation cost of living increases now come out at about 1.4 depending on who you look at but there nobody's a two and no one's a one let's just say it's 1.4 you're doing a plan for next year you're trying to figure out your salaries you given your all your salari employees a one and a half perc increase or are you thinking oh it's been a brutal year um I think I'm G to go 2% or oh it's been a brutal year I think I'm gonna go 1% I mean where's anyone's thought on it why are you why are you assuming you're giving anybody an increase at all because because I believe you need to with cost of living uh I don't do it that way I mean I I try to give money when we have money and uh the the state of the business is independent of this of the of the cost of living increase that the government defines I mean how real is that anyway I it's probably fairly close meaning if you paid someone 50 Grand last year they're taking a one and a half percent hit this year just by doing nothing they just because things cost a little bit more I mean things don't do go up with inflation well just out of curiosity if you're buying health insurance for your people and it goes up 12% for you next year um what do you do with that that's an excellent point which is that's why this podcast is so valuable because you're a real life business owner that is an excellent point of what I'm dealing with and as a result I'm probably going to go to 2% because I'm going to eat a little bit of it but they're going to eat a lot of it and and a lot of of my employees are at the point like most of them aren't like rolling and D they're making their 44 Grand a year and they're going to have a hard time paying their bills and so the the health insurance thing is an issue so I'm gonna give them a little more raise and I'm probably going to raise my price a little bit because the health insurance thing's out of control yeah I mean to me the a lot of times we end up eating costs that uh prevent us from just handing out more cash to the to the employees and the critical thing is is making sure they understand uh how the business spends money what it spends money on what we can control what we can't and how that relates to their success and I I spent a ton of time uh keeping everybody up to date on all of the spending we do so when something like that happens I could say okay well you know that's going to be another 25,000 bucks next year that we got to cover somehow and uh I don't you know I'm not sure we're going to get the sales so what are we going to do about it and that that puts the question of oh am I guaranteed to raise that that uh is a partial answer to that that if we got nothing better to do with the money sure I'm happy to give it to people but if we're required to spend it on something that's out of everybody's control then no it's just not there you're not guaranteed a raise if you want to be guaranteed a raise go work for J William have you thought about raises for for next year we're in the middle of doing budget right now and so what side of this are you on my side or Paul side does everyone get a raise at least at least bare minimum cost of living raise you know I don't know what the cost of living in Houston looks like because it is GEOS specific it's not just any one spot arguably Houston's a more palatable place to live than Chicago land economically you guys have had some issues that drive costs up at least in the iies that we've been doing for our comp studies so I don't know I'll see what my coo brings and we'll have you have you traditionally given a cost of living increase every year when there is cost of living increase so you're thinking it's a possibility that Houston did not have a cost of living increase we haven't had one in years it went down last year wow wow that's shocking and we watch that stuff we watch this stuff like Hawks like one of our verticals is compensation studies so I mean like we have real algorithms real stuff that we use to uh determine those sort of things and cost of living in Houston just has not gone up I I don't know what next year's indicators are I'll I'll review it sometime the next couple weeks and we'll make a decision but yeah if people are incurring more cost just because life costs more I try and help with that but I kind of agree with both of you if I don't have the revenue then I don't have the revenue Lauren what kind of cost of living increase are you giving yourself this year Welcome to the Real World Lord because I think I speak for all three of us when I say we really think you deserve a raise you're doing it yeah I'm I'm doubling my salary excellent that's what we want triple it probably yeah I could okay so the main thing I wanted to assess today by asking the these questions was to what extent if any uh the three of you were feeling burned out and happily uh none of you are looking for the exit door um and that's uh after the year we've had that's that's a a happy thing well you know that whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger there is a certain amount of energy at least for me and I think I'm speaking for all three of us you survive something like this you're start you know you get you feel good about it like hey I look around at my people like we're all in it together and we've stuck together and we're getting the jobs done and the customers are happy and like I'm kind of emboldened more does Jay speak for the three of you for the for all of you no I don't think the trouble's really arrived yet I think it it could easily get much much worse and uh um as long as I'm not actually under duress I don't torture myself and pretend that I am and we're just not but we could be I just don't have no idea where we're going to be six months from now H I'm still in delusion so I'm going to stay there for the moment yeah ignorance is bliss and I want to be Bliss for a few moments it's worked so far this year it has worked you guys may think you're you're off the hook and I'm about to let you go but I got one more thing for you which is I've prepared a morning report news quiz for you to see if you're paying attention to what's going on out there outside your own businesses first question this company kind of beat Amazon to e-commerce its website went up in 1996 when Amazon was just a bookstore by 2000 it had $80 million in Revenue what was the company Sky Mall that's right Paul question number two a recent study found that the 99 cice pricing trick where you try to make something seem cheaper by ending the price in 9 it's also known as the left digigit bias which I'd never heard before the study indicated that it works in one particular situation but not in another anybody know what those two situations are it doesn't work when you're golfing you can't scream 3.99 you still have to scream four am I right no you're not good though it's good all right nobody uh I'm just trying to remember I think it works when you're when you're shopping and it doesn't work when you're not shopping well that's that's sort of it it works when you are looking at prices side by side uh if you're looking at a price uh independently without comparison to any other similar products uh it doesn't have an impact I would argue it's a sophistication thing when you look at rail Florence pants you expect them to be $90 not $89.99 and when you go to Walmart for toothpaste you expect it to be 297 so I think it depends on whether you're you're in a you know discount kind of product question number three according to a recent study if a restaurant can improve its Yelp review by one star it will boost its Revenue but by what percent 18% anybody else I don't know no idea that's aggressive Jay uh the right answer is between five and % which is significant anyway well let me tell you I thought about it after I blurted it out I was wrong that's because some people simply don't look at Yelp I mean so my guess is it would help people that looked at the Yelp a lot more but the fact is a lot of people just don't look at yel so it's not going to have any effect on them so that's why my number is twice as high question number four this week we highlighted a story about finding a final resting place for inspiration imagination and fantasy what was the story referring to entrepreneurship I don't know William you're awful quiet you haven't been reading the morning report have you I read it but uh I'm not recalling that one inspiration imagination and fantasy are all Carnival Cruise ships and they are being stripped down off the coast of turkey and to be sold for scraps I was I was waiting on someone to mention the election somehow with that combination yeah I thought we agreed to not talk about the elections question number five is about the election but not the presidential election la Lo perhaps in the uh election day confusion was one bit of news that is of should be of particular interest to business owners one city managed to pass the nation's first CEO tax San Francisco yeah I heard that one I read that that's the right answer which will tax companies that pay their CEOs more than a hundred times what their media employees are paid the question was what city you got it it's San Francisco any any thoughts on that one guys yeah it's also known as get the hell out of my town act once again my thanks to Paul DS Jay gz and William Vander bluman appreciate your time thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess tharan founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman 21h hats.com see you next time [Music]