Can I Go Dig a Hole?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week Liz picarazzi Jennifer Karen and Sarah seagull talk about whether they ever wish they could go back to their corporate lives for Liz there was a period during the early days of Co for Jennifer it was when she made the transition from a Consulting business to an employee business these days none of them can imagine going back although Sarah did have a rough week recently when she lost two clients it's just the way of the world she tells us when businesses are looking to cut costs it's outside agencies that go first but when it's two of your largest clients in the span of a week it's like really can I go dig a hole put myself in it and just stay there forever what she's actually doing as we discuss is figuring out some new ways to attract more clients we also discuss whether everyone needs a business plan and whether the three owners ever wonder if someone else would do a better job running their business businesses even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations brought to you by our principal sponsor the great game of business will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report whichi magazine named the best newsletter for business owners and which you can subscribe to for free at 21h hats.com we can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Jennifer Karen who is CEO of s SP Expos and events and events management business based near Baltimore Maryland Liz picarazzi who's CEO of City bin which is based in Brooklyn New York and makes trash enclosures and package bins and Sarah seagull who's founder and CEO of seagull Communications a public relations firm based in San Francisco the episode is titled can I go dig a hole welcome Jennifer Liz Sarah it's great to have you all here the three of you have much in common including the fact that you've all been very generous about sharing the ups and downs of your Journeys here on this podcast which leads me to the question I'd like to start with today you know none of you had to start a business and I'm just curious especially when you're struggling with something do you ever regret it do you ever think about going back to your corporate careers or doing something else how about you Liz so it's interesting that you asked because I used to work at an American Express and yesterday I was at an event at a restaurant in the same complex as American Express and I was very um I was really reminiscing about my times there and the people that I met and how when I went to happy hours you know with all my AMX colleagues it was mostly all corporate types but then I was there with a group of entrepreneur women there were around 12 of us and I talked last night about how I got a lot out of corporate but one of the most important things I got was I understood how much friction there is in getting anything done and for an entrepreneur you're looking for traction and when you encounter friction you're going to try to find 10 ways to get through or to get around it or get above it the impression that for me with like a corporate company it's not just AMX thing is that there's a lot of friction in getting anything done so if you're you know doing an 8 hour day and you're in meetings for six of those which often happen with me um it's really hard to get things done and it's very um agitating for an entrepreneur you know so for me I always kind of felt like a black sheep there I felt like everybody else knew how the hierarchy worked and kind of how politics worked um and I don't mean that in a negative way I understand in corporations why there is hierarchy I really actually do but I just I I couldn't play that game I wasn't very good at it I liked to do things that I'm good at and I ultimately felt like I needed to do something that was more creative as it turns out with me I had business plan written for my first business before I left AMX um and I was affected by the layoffs and do the recession and so I ended up leaving but having that business plan in my back pocket and being able to start the business right away and that's a story for another day what that transition was like but um you know and in terms of where I have regretted it you know in the beginning of the pandemic when I had laid off all my employees and didn't know if PPP was really happening and had a warehouse full of inventory that I had just brought over and was paying tons to how that I you know I think you know what if I was in corporate I definitely would not have this problem and and I just had to have hope that we got through it and we did and I feel like the government was incredibly generous with small businesses I definitely would not have survived had I not gotten that PPP so I guess if if things had gone really South then I probably would want to have a corporate job right now Jennifer how about you I think I definitely did um between years five through eight when I started the company in 2009 it was really supposed to be started as a Consulting ter not as a business because I love what I do I have a definite vision of how associations can optimize their events and love it love every aspect of it and in the beginning it was just me working by myself so more of a consultancy than a business I was totally fine but when I got to the point of creating the business hiring staff doing more complicated accounting getting more things to build the structure I didn't like it and I really regretted it and I thought why did I do this I could have worked for consulting firm I could have worked for an association this is stupid this is taking up all my time my kids were little I hate it hate it hate it I pushed through it how long did that last three years but what I should have done is earlier on embraced that if I was going to run a business I should have sought outside help at that moment instead I languished in misery for a couple years and and if IID said okay this is now not a consulting firm I've decided to be a business here's the different options for resources there's books there's podcasts there's CEO advisory groups out there there's free things from the state years later I got some amazing courses through um Maryland's uh Small Business Development Corporation that were free go to that I should have done that instantly to help me design my way I had a vision but I was very lost on the business side once I got through it I was fine then I I love it I would never go back I absolutely adore it now but um if you fall into starting a business without thinking that it's a business and you get lost find the outside resources that's what helped me get out of that stage what was it that you most needed to do differently during that difficult period stop thinking I had to know everything right you had to I should have gotten like I didn't understand accounting and I should have hired um a part-time accountant to set up QuickBooks Online for me much sooner than I did I couldn't I knew how to do the work but I didn't know how to um hire an employee I could have gotten some help to say this is how you hire your first employee this is what you do with them and then how to delegate work of in sort of management because now you're not in the phase of just doing the work you need to manage someone else's work if I had gotten help on those two things that would have helped me to the next level because I I love sales I that was easy to me and you know what I should have done I should have read eth a lot sooner I love that book favorite book of business of all time and I should have read that day one Sarah you've shared with us you've had multiple previous careers or incarnations do you ever miss them well all no they're all in Communications so the the consistency of my career is like I've been in the communication industry for a really long time and so whether or not it's as a reporter on one side of the fence or the person talking to a reporter it's still Communications I was just thinking back I had I had uh drinks with an old colleague of mine from Cafe Press which was a print on demand company that was pretty big at the time that got absorbed by another larger entity and you know I the people that I work with there like we're still all in contact we follow each other and and communicate with each other on a regular basis because the one thing that we liked about having that that time period was the creativity that we were afforded and always kind of kept on our toes as really fast pace and it was really nice having that comfort that um someone else was paying the bills and I didn't have to worry about that because that can be suffocating sometimes for me um as a business owner like where I'm so focused on you know generating new business or you know expanding the business or this and that that I forget about the creative side of what we do and why we do it so um I'm actually working with my team to do this pretty large creative project um that I will divulge at some point soon that just it it's not for a client it it's for us to kind of get our juices is Flowing you know and and and really kind of share the creativity that we have because you know when you work in PR a lot of the times you're like you you'll give a client you know 15 Amazing Ideas and then they they generally go for what's safe and so we have this like laundry list of really awesome ideas that never get picked up but sometimes you just got to do them yourself um I just want to point out one thing is I love that Liz had a business plan before she started her business I still don't have a business plan I'm like working on it slowly but I still haven't been able to figure out kind of what my end goal is because I don't really have an end goal I just you know I like what I do but like is it a monetary goal probably not is it you know an accolades goal probably not so or is it like how big are we probably not so I can't really figure I haven't been able to like really kind of figure out what that is but in terms of going back to like a a corporate um environment I don't think I could because I don't think I'm employable I think that Jay said that on a podcast once or in conversation but I I don't think I'm employable he said you were an employable well somebody said like they said it about themselves and I was like you know what I'm not employable like I don't like marching to the beat of somebody else's drum I can I am always looking for how can we do things better how can we change things how can we move ahead and and a lot of bigger entities aren't um built that way they they don't want to test drive new ideas so I would phrase it a little bit differently I think you're probably quite employable but you might not be a great employee which is probably true of everybody on this podcast yeah I I just I I I'm never satisfied with kind of what's being done and I always want to make something different and and do something um inspired um and you know there are a lot of companies out there that that don't need to do that because they have a great product that is a commodity but that that people not they're a brand name and I just don't think I would fit well into that environment anymore I'm actually hearing Sarah that you kind of want to maximize creativity oh I do I've kind of put myself in a little bit of a funk because I've been so focused on business we had two of our largest clients um we're wrapping up with them at the end of this month because Financial bandwidth on their side like literally both of them are like we love you guys we're going to come back but we need to like take a break and and get our ducks in a row and you know get more funding or or do what what they need to do to make really good use of us but like we love them like we think they're great we think that what they do is really interesting and awesome and we're so excited when we get media hits and opportunities for them so when they leave I you know I I try not to but I take it personally cuz like I feel like I failed the team and then I'm like like spend so much time okay how am I going to make the the numbers work what do we have new business in the pipeline like and then I focus all my energy on that and I forget about the creat the creative side that got me into this business and so I'm really trying to step back and go you know what if if we do what's we're good at and we show the world how creative we are specifically in the video realm people will come come to us and and uh and so um I'm investing a little bit of of money into like starting to create that that video content like we already edit video for clients and and do all of that but like original content is kind of what we we want to focus on for the next you know the next while Sarah one of the things that um that helped me get out of my I don't know couple years of doubting and regretting that I had started business was creating a business plan and I wonder if that would help it it gave me a sense of control it gave me a way to direct my energies that didn't make me seem like I was drowning I'm wondering I mean Liz you started off the right way because I think if I ever started another business the first thing I would do is create a business plan I'm wondering if Sarah if that cuz it's it's sad when when you lose clients like that really sad and I'm wondering if that might help you forward yeah no I mean I have I have a document that's my quote unquote business plan right and I and I I go into it and I work on it as I can it's kind of a work in progress probably would be good to like have somebody else put eyes on it at some point um when it's a little bit more finished but like again um for some reason I'm stuck on this idea that a business plan has to have an end goal I'm not sure you're right about that um I don't think so I think it's really more about the process you know and if you get your plan on paper you can really ask the question will people pay for what I'm offering yes no how much a lot of work to get there but I think a lot of people when they do business plans work out a lot of things that they would encounter you know once they launch and those are good things to know and they can be short when you put together your plan list how far into the future were you thinking was it the first year or to the to to establishing you know some stability I think I probably did it for like three to five years at least half of what I predicted was wrong um which is fine I mean which is probably a pretty good batting average by most standards I suspect yeah I mean everything from you know classifying employees is 1099 or W2 to how I was going to price things who my design Target was for customers changed multiple times but it still will narrow down you know your choices and that you know you're going to find a hundred books about how to write a business plan just kind of look at which are the couple that are the best on Amazon and look for something that's short I've even seen a book I think it's called the one-page business plan and I think for a lot of people that's kind of the way to go and it forces you to to ask questions and answers that you might not otherwise do have you ever thought about going back and updating your plan no I haven't because it's just so many years back my first business that plan was written in like 2008 or something and then for my current business City bin that was actually written in conjunction with starting it because I was spinning it off of the handyman business um and then the other thing I would actually recommend which you may even already know about is the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small businesses program um I did that six or seven years ago but they have satellites at universities in many cities and that's something that Goldman Sachs actually pays for the whole curriculum it's like a six-month commitment I think it's like one day a month in person but every component of a business plan there's like an entire unit devoted to it so you'll get all everything with you know the financials the marketing you know operations hiring iring HR you you name it that was really good for me and actually I created City bin within that Goldman Sachs class because I realized I wanted to spin it off from the handyman business and get out so I actually planned my exit for my first business in that program interesting I also did it's very similar to the Goldman Sachs I did the small business administrations emerging leaders program that's a 9-month program where they meet every two weeks it's at night so it's like 2 and a half hours and it's same thing curriculum every month is a different sort of chapter they have a a leader who teaches as well as bring us in guest speakers and then you do a presentation at the end very similar concept to Liz and they help you at the end of it you had to write a business plan and a sales and marketing plan to support it I unlike Liz change my plan I add to it let's say mine's 2 years there's the initial what the company's going to but as things have developed over the last 14 years uh especially with the arrival of us getting so involved with event technology support that I have changed it right um I think the first thing it helped me to do though is not Chase any business that came my way when I actually put down a business planned up writing I was able to say no to potential or current clients when they asked me for services that I didn't think were in my wheelhouse cuz before when I was just sort of of trying to make it through sometimes I accepted some work that I I shouldn't have that wasn't in my core strength and that business plan really helped me to focus on my core strength kind of like Pilates For Business wait how do you mean it's like Pilates for just a core strength yeah yeah I get it okay I do pilotes once a week maybe I need to do this more can I ask Lauren Lauren I you know you ask us questions all the time about um our our businesses uh oh but you know you run a small business um do you have a business plan um no I don't and I I probably should you know it's I don't want to go too deep into this right now but I've been kind of throwing things against the wall to see what sticks what sticks and what might be a potential Revenue source for me the the newsletter sponsorship of the podcast uh in-person meeting couple other ideas that I have and I I feel like I've needed to try these things out and get a sense of whether they work at all and I'm thinking that you know maybe next year I need to to really put it down on paper and have a real plan seriously I have an idea for you um you need to host a series of webinars that people can sign up and pay for where you break down you know whatever the questions are for the business plan and literally talk through those and people have to go away and do homework and come back and it's almost like create like a peer group of people that are in your situation and my situation to like kind of put light of fire under them I guarantee 50% of business owners out there if not more don't have business plans and it's it's one of those things that they wish they had and they know they should have but it's you know putting pen to paper is easier said than done I actually have a little bit of a coffin for my first business it's just a box in my office where I put all of the things that died when that business died and one of the things in there is the business plan wow you know postcards I created and sent and various things it's almost like a scrapbook but I was like I can't get rid of this business plan even though half of it or more was totally wrong but every once in a while I pulled it out and they're like a little momento Jennifer I'm you mentioned that you did an original plan and that you uh you update it do you update it based on changes in the business or do you think about it once a year or once every two years I would say I update it every two years theoretically it's a plan for three years but I never make it through three years and the two-year plan is the core the mission and vision and then it talks about where we're going to focus the majority of our efforts um the last two years has been focused heavily on scalable structure I always have a theme with it too so it's a strategic plan that underlines the business plan the business plan to me is the how is this engine running right I have my customers I have my structure I have how I'm going to make money so maybe I'm updating my strategic plan every two years to tie into the business plan but in the beginning in the beginning I started the business with associations as my core customer but I started taking other work and when I wrote the business plan I said nope I only want to work with associations I'm not taking taking corporate clients I'm not going to take government clients it helped me Focus very specifically on events and the event revenue for Association conventions to what extent Jennifer is it strategic and and you kind of text and to what extent is it financial and and numbers looking at you know what you charge what your Revenue will be how much money you'll actually make so there's definitely uh Revenue goal goals um and uh profit net profit and gross profit goals that tie into a pipeline so I have I don't have great kpis on what my pipeline should be but I'm getting there so if I want to do 20% increase this year how big does my pipeline need to be and if it starts to fall below I'm not going to get it because I know on average I get about 40% of all of our proposals that we send out we get 40% that turn into clients there's definitely financial side and then there's um a lot of infrastructure in that plan of um I do forecasting with my CFO so okay we think based on this Revenue goal we should hire one full uh FTE full-time employee where would that be let's think it through this sounds like I'm way more organized than I am but it's definitely over the course of like two months every couple years two years that I that I put this to paper cuz if I don't put it to paper it won't get done right it'll stay in my head it doesn't get communicated it forces me to put my plan to paper and then say Okay nope I agreed I'm only focusing Association that was years ago right this time now I'm adding two new Services how am I going to do that this is how I'm going to do it Sarah I'd like to go back to the uh the clients you were talking about you you said that you know you you parted on good terms with them but you still feel kind of a sense of responsibility for it did you learn anything from it do you think you could have done something different or was it purely their experience it was purely their experience I mean there was nothing we could have done like literally they it's been all accolades like how much they like working with us and how um great the team is it's just a financials and so you know it's not the first time um that we've had to EB and flow with clients based on their financials it's just you know it's the way the world like businesses are are looking to cut costs it's outside agencies that go first right but you know when it's two of your largest clients in the span of a week that's tough it's like really can I go dig a hole and put myself in it and just stay there forever and until it goes away it's kind of crushing you know because literally a week before that I was like wow we're on good track my p&l looks great like these are all good things and then all of a sudden it's like oh okay um not so good um and getting those big clients is a lot of work um and we I just found out yesterday we had we had submitted a last minute proposal through a connection of ours to work on a very large city project for San Francisco and we found out yesterday that we didn't win it because they were going with an agency that was bigger but like that literally that was the reason the that agency doesn't have as many staff in San Francisco as we do but because they had like big name brands like they had worked for familiar more familiar Brands that's the reason that they're going with them they're going with what's safe you know we're not on the radar yet of larger brands or household name brands we're still in the smaller Regional businesses which is good and we like it a lot but you know having those big BG ger um companies with stable sources of revenue that aren't going to look at you and say hey we run out of funding got to cut back for a while would be a nice goal it would be nice to get those so I need to spend a lot of time kind of figuring out how to put myself in front of those those potential potential people and it's like you know going to conferences speaking more more contributed content it's the thought leadership because it's it's go where they go Sarah I'm curious do you ever um work as a sub on like let's say it's a like an advertising agency let's say like going Beyond just the regular marketing into the pr realm for big Brands is that ever a way that you can kind of get on to a larger Brand's work it is we're looped in with a a handful of marketing agencies most of those marketing agencies don't have like the big um the big big clients so I have started sourcing out and just trying to get on the radar of some of the other larger advertising and marketing agencies because a lot of marketing agencies like you go to their website and they'll be like oh we do marketing and we do PR and then you look at their headcount and they have like one person that does PR and you're like you're like okay so you don't really do PR you say that you do PR but you don't really do PR the only way to to get in there is is getting acquainted with the these folks and and introducing yourself as a as a as a sub but yeah we're we've done that in the past for sure just not for any like super major brand yet no I mean like there are big brands that we do work for like for example like birdies is a a national shoe company and we work for them because we were brought in through their creative agency and so we actually edit all of their digital advertising video really random but like it's a capability that we have and we're very good at it and so um we just turn that around for them Sarah have you rethought your marketing strategy at all in light of losing these two clients or are you doing anything different um oh I am I am like um so um this kind of just happened over the last couple of weeks but um we do a lot of grand openings for um our clients so a lot of brick and mortar stuff where they're opening a new location or whatever and so we end up a lot of times working with the Chambers of Commerce for Regions and we uh in conversation with them have found that like we have a lot of you know knowledge that we can provide to the chamber memberships so we're going to be offering you know complimentary webinars and in-person um uh sessions that focus on PR and media relations and social media management um for a handful of of Chambers um in our region um and we're going to kind of test drive those um and then just to kind of continue to just get our name out there um you know we are becoming known specifically in the Bay Area because we have so many Bay Area clients but like literally the chambers are great and they're responsive and and they they work with every siiz business out there so if we can continue just to like offer up you know something that's easy for us like I'll talk about media relations until the cows come home and you don't have to pay me for that so that's what we're doing for it's a a new new business thing in addition to some creative stuff that we're doing Jennifer have you ever hired PR help I have not we've talked extensively in the show about how marketing has been not really great for me it's not been my strong suit and sort of ignored but no never done theor I'm always interested what Sarah has to say Liz you have I'm I'm curious did you find the people you've hired in the past so I was in a kind of a women's entrepreneur group really early on and one of the women in the group was starting her own you know PR firm uh husband and wife team also which I'm very familiar with and so I interestingly I was going to hire her for I think the retainer was like 5,000 a month which was definitely more than I could pay but I still took the leap and she got me in the New York Times Like immediately in that first month which was a really big big step for us that was in like 2015 long time ago so in that situation it was worth it but what I will say is that you're supposed to like kind of continue on with the publicist for a couple months after that to kind of promote the publicity that you got so I did a another month and I got literally nothing from it and so I thought thought to myself well I aimed high and I got exactly what I wanted do I want to keep keep going for it at least at this stage and I decided not so I cut it off after the second month oh wow that's quick yeah it was really quick and I don't know if it was too quick however I am very good at PR and I spend a lot of time on PR even though I wouldn't like call myself oh I'm like part-time publicity like I am and I enjoy doing it is it a good use of your time though um h a lot of people are I mean PR is not brain surgery it's not it can be it's a although let me stop you I don't know about that Sarah that kind of undercuts what you do I mean it takes a lot it takes time to learn how to do it and do it well yeah um but the the phys the physical acts of of what we do are not super complicated but it's not well understood no it's not it's not I would ask Liz you know you said they got you in the New York Times in the first month that's kind of great but but but why did that happen were did they know something did they do PR really well or did you just have a good story to tell that hit the times at the right time how did that happen so Lauren that's actually a good question because I think I may it may have been that I had a really good story and it's not it still was totally worth paying it to get that but I realized that a lot of like what was in you know the the release or whatever was was like stuff that I probably could have written myself but at the same time I didn't really know how to work it so our publicist she had a contact in the real estate section of the New York Times which is where it ran so I guess I'm kind of talking about both sides of my mouth here well that's valuable that she had connections and that made a difference that's super valuable yeah yeah I mean I often just ask if I were the journalist what would I want what information would I want to be able to decide to do this story decide if it's interesting or decide I have the right media so when I got really focused on doing that it's almost like I feel like I'm sometimes feeding them the stories and about a huge percentage of it that ends up in the article will have come specifically from what I gave them including the names of competitors and links to competitors I realized that a while back that if you're writing to you know a publication that's going to look at a category let's say package lockers you know they're definitely going to be interested in what I have to say but I think they were more interested because I made their job easier they didn't have to research who my competitors were because I gave it to them you want a job um no but here's it but again is it a good use of your time because yeah you know how to do it you know how to do it really well but should you be doing it and that's the that's we get a lot of clients where it's like yeah I know how to do this I can talk to reporters but should I be do spending my time reaching out or should I offset this because it it's timec consuming yeah I don't know I kind of enjoy it there are advantages to doing it yourself uh I would say speaking as a as a journalist I've developed relationships with people who reached out to me directly Through The Years uh that have lasted for many years and I don't I don't think it would have necessarily happened you know if it had come through somebody else yeah I well so but I've heard from a lot of reporters that don't like working with businesses directly because um most of them don't understand the timeline the deadlines the the image requirements the you know uh how not to try to use it as a commercial like the like a lot of people will try and we spend a lot of time working with clients being like no you can't if you want a piece of contributed content to run you cannot be writing it like an advertisement as for your bus business you have to put it in context like we work for the with a hotel and I'm like yeah we can get a travel reporter to come and write about the hotel but they don't want to write just about the hotel they're going to want to write about the whole region so we're going to have to make friends with um other Hospitality providers and make it a whole thing and they quickly got that but it's it it's like what you said you're you're pitching yourself but you're pitching your verticals well you're giving people a heads up on other players in in the space which you know can help and obviously hurt you in certain ways but that's what they want they want a trend story they don't want to just write about one entity Sarah and we've had this conversation before once or twice with Jay goz where he has said that he's surprised that he doesn't get more pitches from PR firms directly reaching out to him have you thought more about just picking out businesses that you would like to work with and contacting them directly yeah actually um I find that old emailing doesn't work though I'm just going to tell you that much like my gut is I've definitely reached out and given case studies or like provided them with hey I saw this opportunity I thought of your brand and those don't usually go anywhere unless there's a connection but like for example we manage the social media accounts for a bunch of clients and this this really cute company based in San Francisco reached out through our clients um Instagram handle um because they make custom branded dog toys and so custom dog toys yeah I know it's weird but it's it's called can I say their name on this um called good boy spelled g o d b o i and they're based in San Francisco and they created a prototype of a doughnut box and a doughnut both of which are dog toys reached out to through via Instagram to say hey who can we send this to to the doughnut company to consider which I thought was super cute so I reached out back to them and I was like um I got my staffer to get me their email and I was like hey you know you guys are small you're up and coming but I think what you think you're doing is really interesting um you just love to grab a coffee or something and you know put us on your radar for when you're ready um we did that recently with a local Distillery and um because one of my staffers went in and was like oh my God this place is awesome and they don't do PR and I was like okay and so I reached out and said hey we just want to like be around for when you decide you want to invest in PR and we got a meeting with them and sent them a proposal and I don't know if it's going to happen right away but they know that we're there there now and so that's kind of how I'm going about those well and that could they could also develop a budget in the future based on your quote they may not have it now but they could say yeah we're going to get this started in 2024 I think that's a really good approach when they do their business plan um yeah so I I think that how cold doesn't work but warm does so um I'm I'm kind of work on the warm and that's why we're going to do the the Chamber of Commerce stuff because it creates warm we only have a little time left uh Liz last time you were here uh you told us that you were in the process of preparing a presentation for your EO group about impostor syndrome and uh I'm curious uh did you go ahead and give that presentation and how did it go so I did give the presentation I did not know that you were going to ask but that's okay Lauren I I'm I'm glad you asked it's nice to reflect on it so you know I've had a lot of growth in the company in the last couple of years and I'm finding myself in a lot of situations that I feel like in over my head or things that I don't like to do that I need to do anything that's you know Le or taxes or Insurance any related stuff like that and so kind of figuring out what I'm good at and what I'm not good at has been really important because then I can acknowledge what I'm not good at and I can make sure that's delegated and for I've made a lot of progress in the last year like delegating more so part of it was like figuring out what a good at good at and bad at but then part of it is you know I've encountered a lot of new people in the last couple of years since we've been doing City work so one thing I distinguished in this presentation which I had a coach for is that there's a couple of situations I'm in where I feel really vulnerable in terms of like well what is my subject matter expertise you know I'm not an industrial designer or an architect like what business do I have making trash enclosures you know these people have all their journals and their white papers all about how to do various forms of kind of public use goods and not that I necessarily think that they should put City bin in there but I guess I'm sometimes feel sort of threatened like well if these people are the Arbiters of good design and good use of public space maybe I need to be more like maybe I need to understand that better yeah a lot of it had to do with design a lot of it had to do with figuring out what I'm good at and not and then I would say the underlying worry of all of it that comes up is that I sometimes wonder if I'm the best person to run my own company like we're growing I feel good about that I'm doing a good job I think but there are a lot of things that starting to feel really chaotic like hiring people quickly or um changing some big things with operations like maybe someone else would be good at doing all of that and you know and that is impostor syndrome because my seven EO mates in the room all said that they all at various points and many of them currently have impostor syndrome I mean it's not it's not rare it's really common depending what profession you're in and actually I would say entrepreneurs probably have less impostor syndrome because we're really bold and we're really courageous and you know to you're not going to be overwhelmed with impostor syndrome that to the point that you aren't going to be an entrepreneur like you can still get through it so you know it was a really good presentation I think it was good to distinguish like where I see myself feeling the impostor syndrome and how can I sort of address it so very I'd say definitely very cathartic you've told us in the past uh that you've asked yourself whether you're the right person to do this or not did going through this uh process of reparing and giving the presentation affect your thinking on that at all so I definitely still think I'm the best one to lead my company I I feel like I have kind of shed that for a little bit I don't know if this is a fully formed thought but I'll say it anyways I feel like if my company keeps growing organically that I'm going to be really good at my job but if I got like outside funding or something happened where we really blew up and were huge I think I would not be good in that situation and that's good to know because then it's like okay well maybe I'm not always the CEO maybe I'm going to become the chief creative officer I kind of am that in many ways right now and I love that Sarah or Jennifer have either of you thought about this at all I think no one will love my company more than me think of it as I don't know what I'm doing every day but I will smother it with love and I will find the answers it's like when you're a new mother you you know you love that child more than anything do you know all the right answers and when you see the mom that has four kids you're like man they have it all together right do I know everything nope but I have a vision and a desire and and no one's going to put as much effort and love into this in me all right we need to stop my thanks to Jennifer Karen Liz picarazzi and Sarah seagull and to our sponsor the great game of business which helps businesses use an open book management system to build healthier companies you can learn more at Great game.com thanks everybody wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that's L ren21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you really think you can take it and if you got something out of this kind conversation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter subscribe to the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone [Music]