Can We All Be Purple Cows?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week sha busy Jackie Russo and Jay goz discuss what it takes to stand out these days especially if your business like most businesses isn't really the next big thing what about trash collection what if your business is selling scrap metal what if you happen to be one of 69 picture framers in Chicago what's an owner to do to stand out then is it enough to execute really well can any business make itself remarkable sha J and Jackie all believe it's possible and they offer examples from their own businesses as well as those they've observed plus as Google waffles about whether it's going to kill cookies on Chrome will business owners still be able to Target customers digitally and Jay's not happy about a very big Bill he got from his accounting firm should he just go ahead and pay it even in good times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations brought to you by our sponsor the great game of business will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges in fact that's the whole idea behind the 21 hats Community engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insights only another entrepreneur can offer if you're interested in learning more step one is to sign up for a free trial of the Morning Report which highlights the most important news of the day for business owners so you don't have to go looking for it step two is to get on our slack Channel where you can ask questions get vendor recommendations and tap the wisdom of a very impressive crowd just Google the 21 hats Morning Report to subscribe joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Sean busy CEO of Kinesis which is based in Portland Oregon and works with small businesses on marketing culture and strategy Jay goldz the CEO of the gos group whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home and Jackie Russo is CEO of brand Russo a marketing agency based in Lafayette Louisiana the episode is titled can we all be purple cows welcome Sean Jay and Jackie it's great to have you here I want to talk today about something I've wondered about for a while we often hear the advice that it's a bad idea to try to sell a product or service that is viewed as a commodity you need to find Niche or to distinguish yourself in some way but here's my question aren't some businesses just commodity businesses and if so what can a small business do to succeed if it's pretty much a commodity business Jackie have you thought about this at all we've worked with a number of clients in that space with that predicament so I guess I would start with name a commodity business because I would say there aren't really any of those anymore even if you look at water and toilet paper there's some differentiators there there's some place where they've put themselves whether it's through packaging or through pricing or through promotion to try to separate themselves from the herd you know humans are a pack animal and so we want to blend in it's our nature but if we don't find a way to stand out you're not going to be a very successful business for long garbage collection that's not Commodities the people to pick up your garbage that's not a commodity business I would tell you um L Lafayette Louisiana where I live we've just been through two different rounds of contracts with different uh garbage pickup Services they are vastly different in their offerings in their pricing in the performance of their service and we as homeowners don't get to choose but the um council did and uh we very much missed the one we used to have it was a difference so you think Jackie if somebody comes to you and looks like a commodity business pretty much any business you can turn them around and make them not a commodity business we did it for a milk company you know Dairy is probably one of the biggest Commodities and I just use air quotes out there and we were able to work with this Regional Dairy and help them go from you know zero market share they were entering new markets for the first time and within about six months had 18% of the market share against Organics Heritage and store brand even though they were not as healthy as organic they were more expensive than the store brand and Heritage means people have just been buying it for generations and generations and you just buy the same thing that everybody bought but we we were able to carve out a niche for them Sean let me ask you kind of the same question but a slightly different way uh as I'm sure you're well aware Seth Goden wrote a book called Purple Cow transform your business by being remarkable it's a very readable book and I think it's obviously good advice if you if you can distinguish yourself you should probably distinguish yourself but can we all be purple cows can any business be remarkable what do you think yeah I think you know since we we special we're not in the consumer space like Jackie is we're we're almost entirely B2B and there are definitely some strong commodity businesses in B2B I remember meeting a guy who basically his his business was buying scrap steel like that's it you know he's buying scrap steel from manufacturers who you know offcuts and waste and so forth and boy that is a tough business because the buyer in that space is some sort of a like procurement type of person and so they're buying largely on price and it's hard to defeat that I ultimately walked away from the engagement even though he wanted to put money on the table because I I could tell that I don't think he was willing to do what would have needed to be done to be a purple cow and and I think that that for companies where they're closer to being a pure commodity you have to be a lot more uh bold and usually that boldness comes in either the form of culture where you're really creating a place where where employees are really engaged and doing amazing work because then the customer feels that and then you're differentiated on that or the offering like the process the way you do things is significantly different in the way you deliver that commodity um and and of those things require a lot of um vision from the leader and a lot of times what I have found at least in my experience is that a lot of commodity based businesses um the leaders are really fixated on winning by Price you know by by being cheaper than the other guy as opposed to Service delivery process or culture well you left a whole piece out though there's a whole piece to that which is what if the company figured out how to do it cheaper because for I mean I've sold scrap when I cut aluminum frames we used to sell barrels of you know the scrip yeah what if they figured out oh they've got a good location that's closer to the customers therefore I'm paying my truck driver a lot less to go pick up every day and they figured out how to get it to the scrap recycler cheaper that is another angle that somebody figured out Walmart someone figured out how to do things cheaper and pass the savings along so that's the commodity but you can still you know win by getting your cost down yeah I I think that's a really that's a really good point you know and you might layer into that like say technology right so you could you could put a piece of technology in place that make you made you far more efficient than your competition I tend to think that those kind of moves um they can be copied more easily uh than than the moves that I'm suggesting um so that's why I go to those places first is that culture is really hard it's really hard to do in a commodity space so if you can do it it's much harder for your competition to catch up to you it's much more of a moat strategy I think the way you deliver your service to your customer something that we've called the proprietary way which is a combination of people service um really process that that amalgam is is a sort of a secret sauce that's really hard to copy um versus you know a technology play once your competitors figure out that technology if they can buy it off the shelf or build it themselves it's a little easier to copy so I'd say yes yes stands to what you're saying Jay well and I'll just jump back in you know Sean we're about 90% B2B too and so sure we've dealt with companies that make widgets and you know small intricate details inside their Industries but I think there's always a way to separate if you didn't start your business knowing you were going to do something different and better than the rest of the competition why' you start well I mean this this will get Jay riled up you know a lot of times these commodity businesses they're they're owned by second and third generation um and and so you Al often have that factor layered in in that it was their father their mother their grandfather their grandmother that actually was the innovator and they are sort of like keeping the thing going and so sometimes that can be really challenging to be the innovator when you're the second or third generation Jay let me ask a question I think we have someone here who might be able to answer Jackie's question and that's you Jay I I hope you don't take offense at this but isn't picture framing something of a commodity business how how many picture framers were there in Chicago no way many answer how many picture framers were there in Chicago when you when you opened up back in the day of the Yellow Pages I remember counting the number of frame shops this is probably 20 years ago there were 69 frame shops you opened 40 years ago right so I'm just saying it's Peak which was probably in 2000 25 years ago 20 25 years ago there were 69 and you got to remember the framing industry was in a boom for many years because of the Baby Boomers and they framing pictures the framing industry really basically I've been there from the beginning when I started it was just starting to pick up steam and it grew tremendously for the next 45 years and then it got mature so then what happened the chain store started to pick it up and and now the independent frame shops have shrunk so there used to be 69 frame shops in Chicago and now there's about 22 and nationally there were 25,000 frame shops and now it's 6,000 so it's a commodity in that a lot of people do it but it's certainly not a commodity if you do it right there's a huge difference between a well-run framing business and someone who just showed up and is doing mediocre framing there's no question which is why my business grew so much I didn't know this and I certainly couldn't put the words on it back when I I didn't start out and go oh I'm going to differentiate myself and you know brand myself better I just did a better job I was more committed to taking care of customers and having better frames and having better people working there and having a better turnaround and having better quality so I just wanted to run a Better Business which you can now use a bunch of words to describe which is differentiation but but that is why I'm bigger than everyone else I mean what we're talking about here and I think all three of us will agree on this is brand experience and so that is how you can Elevate yourself out of a commod space so what Jay's describing right it's the customer experience it's the framer's knowledge of the product their ability to add the right value and solution to the customer's experience those are all decommodification strategies that involve culture customer differentiation on and on and on and on and so I think that when you are in a space that's heavily commoditized those are your ways I mean we've done this with clients that are in commodity spaces I think Jackie has done this with client you know it's it's it's about going for brand and and I mean that not from like a pretty logo and a pretty website but actually the customer experience and the employee experience and if you get those two things right you've actually kind of beat about 90% of your competition at that point you know what I've learned it's about being 10% better that's what we're talking about we're talking about all the stuff you're describing brand which is everything you do the way your employees dress the way they talk the where your office is what your sign looks like does your chair in your waiting room have a rip in it all of those things added together maybe add up to 5 10% of your business you do that for 30 years one company does 10 million and the other company's doing a million it's it's it's about being a little bit better so yes it's about running a better business with good branding and good messaging and um I believe I think our point is any business can benefit from being non-commodity by by attempting to make make your business a little bit better whether it's the way you are branded your ads maybe the person that comes and pick ups a scrap is just friendlier than the other guy I mean like that J you're talking about execution yeah and I guess my question is is execution executing well running the business well is that enough to take you from a commodity business to a non-commodity business yes yes yes absolutely because execution comes from process process comes from intention intention comes from plan and that's how businesses separate themselves it is shocking to me how few companies and I'm sure Sean will agree how few companies in the B2B and b2c space actually spend the time to plan out their strategic marketing approach instead they are reactive shiny thing I'm going to do it sales pitched from a cute girl I'm going to do it and all of a sudden they say why is have my budget wasted well because you didn't plan it here I'll give you an example I just went to a doctor office out in the middle of nowhere and the office was all nice looking and stuff and the the woman behind the counter is wearing a hoodie with blue something on it and it just you know what it's a doctor's office like don't wear a hoodie sweatshirt with printing on it it just it doesn't look good I stopped recommending anymore because they don't listen they would say this is the line they always say when you tell them something you can do better oh no one cares about that and the answer is you know what you're 95% right I'm probably only one out of 20 people to think gee I'd feel a little better if the person behind the counter look like a professional and maybe only one out of 20 people but that's 5% that's the difference between being a little bit better yeah see I I got to take issue with your simplification Lauren I think saying that it's execution is too simplified and yes absolutely we all know most businesses especially at the corporate level they are terrible at execution they're just awful but that's just a piece of it I think there's a seductive aspect of execution which is that wow I can create lists I can check things off lists I can have a process for everything and that is wonderful stuff it's also highly copiable there are pieces of what what Jay is telling in terms of his story that are not execution they are pieces of affinity within employees they're pieces of feeling appreciated they're pieces of recruiting and retention these are not really execution things so when you say execution you start to get into this world of operations which is really important I don't want to downplay the significance of that but improving execution is generally kind of a linear output to it whereas things like culture process differentiation remarkability those are exponential things and and I and I really want to caution us about simplifying it to oh you just need to execute better because that's not what what actually J done well you know I that's interesting you say that but I'm wondering whether it's a word I I hear what what I just heard you say is different than what you said what I'm hearing you saying you can say execution but it's really what's behind the execution that makes the difference and I totally agree with that that you're right it's oh get delivery better it's not the ca the issue isn't give better deliverables it's learn how to hire better and keep your employees around so I absolutely hear your point with it is execution but but it's really about how do you pull that off and that's what the issue is and then the problem is the internet has all driven us to follow this whole like listicle idea right 10 ways you can become better at hiring it's like okay that's fine but underpinning all of that stuff is what is your mission what are your values what do you care about you know how are how do you treat customers these are things that I think you know Jackie I think you and I would agree these are strategic and like really powerful and meaningful aspects of the business that then should drive the execution and so I I just really caution when we start talking about execution execution you could run down this path of like best practices and copying other people and those things are good but the underpinning of that is way more important like a thousand per. always okay so that's interesting so all all you're saying which makes sense is it's about corporate culture drives execution so instead of banging out oh execute better execute better it's really about your corporate culture includes how you taking care of customers which is execution so you're I would agree with you a better word to tell someone if you really want to succeed in business and grow instead of saying execute better work on your corporate culture because that's going to enable you to execute better and I fully agree with that are we on the same page with yes yes and like culture huge huge huge huge and I think not to be undervalued in the conversation about execution and then also I think to your other point Jay it's like there's business the strategy like how are you going to Market what is the offering how is it remarkably different you know like we we talked about all these picture framers that existed and and I think you've outlasted and outlived a lot of them because they were sort of business as usual right well the business was growing so much they just had to show up and you could do okay yeah right right and in a good you know Rising tide it's like oh we're all so talented here and you did something different and and I think that that's the other the other side of the coin so you have culture and then differentiation and remarkability Jay the question that Jackie asked was if you're not going to do something different why would you even start the business what were you thinking when you started your business did you think that you were going to be different than all those other absolutely no I that's why I got in the business first of all I loved picture framing I love the whole process of finding the right frame for the right picture and making a picture look great and I mean I I loved framing but I also knew enough about frame shops to know that you'd bring a picture in and you'd say when will it be done uh four or five weeks give me a call we'll see and I thought to did you really know that that was standard absolutely I went with my mother one time this was a one-time experience my mother framed one picture and my mother didn't drive so I probably drove her to the frame shop I was probably 17 years old or 16 years old I drove her to the frame shop and it was a Dusty old you know frame shop and I thought to myself why would it take five weeks to frame a picture it's not like they're growing the tree and then they got to cut it down and I so so yes that was typical in the framing business at the time that we'll get it done when we get it done and what I didn't realize till I was in my late 20s and business was growing like crazy I didn't realize that my attitude towards customer was very different than many frame shop owner I grew up at my father's Dime Store taking care of customers I enjoyed customers I like customers I support customers and I found out that a lot of people that were in the frame business viewed thems as some kind of artist which is the opposite of customer driven when you think about it customer driven is what do they need give it to them artist driven is look what I made oh you don't like it you're an idiot get out hey as a as an artist I I I resent that characterization okay but you have to agree that artists do things to make themselves happy they don't ask a customer what color do you think I should paint this picture that is true that is true that's what I'm saying it's not customer that's absolute fact I'm married to an artist Sean you cannot even begin to argue that point that is fact no the the first part of his point I agree with the second part I take issue a little hyperbole just to get your attention it's a hyperb complete freak you are you are a freak that you went from being an artist to being a market I mean that is like watching a dog talk I mean that's not a normal thing you have to you guys are all freaks let's be honest well for sure but bigger because he actually is an artist and actually became a successful business communicator and marketing person those two things usually are not in the same is that right Sean yeah I me there's some I know some other talking dogs for sure do you know some other artists that went into marketing that are actually I would give my husband an example Michael's a fine artist who's gone into marketing so it happens but it's very rare that like Shawn they can also run successful business without a business partner that is a hard thing for them to do two different sides of the brain yeah so just to tie this up I I think what I'm hearing from you is that yeah any business can be remarkable and you know in preparation for this and thinking about it and thinking about the Purple Cow it occurred to me I I think I would argue that the advice Seth Goden offers in purple cow is kind of generic advice it's it's not like before he wrote that book the conventional wisdom in marketing was that the way to sell more stuff is to exactly like all of your competitors I guess I'm saying I think the advice Goden is offering is kind of commodity advice you have to distinguish yourself he just executed it really well with a compelling image um a purple cow no Am I Wrong Sean no you're wrong I mean what he did is he is he used metaphor which is the powerful thing and that's not just an execution is he found a way to tell his story story in a way that was new and different and unique and I would also argue you're simplifying his his position a little bit in that he's not saying oh differentiation is important that's been said forever he's saying you have to be radically different he's saying like you have to really like turn it up to 11 and and that idea I think was a bit new you know in terms of his book so I don't think it's just execution it's more than that I read the book written by some some that worked in Nordstroms years ago and she said something in it that was very smart she said it's not that Nordstroms is so good it's that everyone else is so bad and there's truth to that and my argument is being remarkable today means being really good I think that in a capitalist Society um the businesses who do their job better will typically rise to the top and I think you're seeing that if you just want an example look at what's happening with fast food all of these fast food restaurants raise their prices raise their prices raise the prices and saw their sales drop they all went back to $5 menus and they're starting to see that they're gaining business back so the market will dictate same thing with customer service the companies that are saying I'll get back to you in 48 hours they will be upped by a company that says 24 hours and they will be upended by a company that says same day so I think that consumers Drive what we expect the businesses to do I mean the the giant asterisk you're not recognizing Jack is Monopoly and and cap and customer capture so you know I just I just put a post up on about how QuickBooks just raised their prices again and somebody pointed out it was the third time in a year and a half and I tell you the engagement on that post and the frustration and the anger was palpable and you know why don't people change change is really hard and the alternatives are very difficult and and so there's a there a lot more capture I say customer capture than there's ever been so like you know try to do business and not use Google or try to buy something and not be Amazon and so I think that's the tension that underlies a lot of this and maybe why the service has got Morse J is that there are more and more businesses that they don't really give a damn because they don't have to give a damn I want to move on to a couple of other topics I want to see if I can oversimplify a couple of other things before we run out of time first you mentioned Google uh for several years Google said it was going to get rid of cookies in Chrome now it says it's keeping them but it's going to let individual users uh decide whether they want to allow them on their own uh browser or their own computer which I would expect means most people are probably going to not allow them um so maybe this is a backd door way to eliminating cookies my question is what does this mean for business owners or somebody who's trying to figure out how to do some digital marketing Mar Sean Jackie either of you thank you for not asking me because I got I have nothing to say on this I think J I think Jackie should Jackie should feel this one I'll jump in on this one and Sean please um share your thoughts as well I think that it starts with the push back from advertisers definitely influenc Google's decision um you know as much as no one wants to have their data mind everybody wants to use the Mind data I think that the US it apparently at this point is never going to really step up and put in the place that the protections that the EU have done and so we are going to continue to see this individual choice and for the most part I think the majority of people don't care they're not paying attention they're annoyed by the popups they just want to get to whatever the page is and I think there's a a prevailing sense of they've already got all my info anyway you know everything that I use from the credit card to the Bank to the place where I buy tickets to the place where I you know store this piece of data or that piece of data has sent me a letter telling me they've been hacked and so here we are I can tell you as a user whenever that thing pops up I always have to think do I really want and I usually say no because I don't even know what it means and what they're going to do and what they're going to take and it it it is it isn't the great thing as a buyer Sean what do you do when that pops up on your screen do you allow the cookies or not allow the cookies I mean if I'm given the chance to reject it I usually will um but a lot of businesses are sneaky and you know kind of make it difficult or the functionality doesn't work as well and then I'm kind of in the Jackie camp on this one it's just like really you you think there's some Secrets out there that you're maintaining like no they have all your information it's it's everywhere and it's you know I think there was a brief moment in time when they passed the can spam law where I saw kind of a shift towards regulation and some recognition of privacy and then it just like was promptly ignored and I just think consumers have no power in this realm and and the uptet of that Sean is that businesses will continue to be able to Target audiences yeah yeah I mean they want customers I think it'll get more expensive I think it'll get more expensive and worse um I think Corey Doo's work around the inchid ification of everything is a mustre for any business owner because essentially the things that have been good and have uh been successful in the past are getting worse and worse and so continually relying on the same thing is a is is a risky bet so I think Jackie would be curious to hear what you about this but like I think the challenge to owners now is to diversify the ways that they get customers and they make connections and and we've been on a bit of a journey for the last 10 years of everything was digital and it was great to it's getting a lot harder you know what I would use a different not just diversify I would say maximize which simply means everything matters like I said it's not just your digital advertising maybe that your office should look different if people come to your office maybe your people should dress differently maybe your logo should be looked at maybe I thought you said nothing to say on this topic Jay well I didn't no no that was about cookie now we're talking talking about cookies all right well then I'll just sit here and wait for your next compelling topic to come up that I can jump in on that'll be in just a moment but first Jackie I think Sean sort of asked you a question did did you want to respond I missed it Jay um occupied my space my brain after it's hard once Jay gets going I mean the oxygen goes out of the room well I'm GNA give him another chance to get going then thank you Jay you've been going back and forth with your accountant over a bill for a while uh last time I spoke with you you you hadn't really decided whether you should just pay the bill or not uh we're here to help uh tell us what's been going on um in my account for 25 years I PID tens of thousands of dollars a year for accounting services had them come out never comes out when I say never I mean pretty much never hasn't been here in years my staff never met him came out had a meeting about you know we were changing staff and had a meeting where we were at spent an hour here went back typed up an overview of what happened at the meeting which okay I didn't really need it but all right and then sent me a $2,500 bill for that and then I was using their recruiting services to find a accounting person and they couldn't find one and I I got an bill for this is the part I'm struggling with I went along with it they told me it was three and a quarter an hour and I went along with it and I shouldn't have and so they sent me a bill once for Seven Grand now another one for Grand and I let him know how for recruiting for the recrui yeah that didn't that didn't work and um I told them how unhappy I was in December all right all right all right I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll adjust the bill okay haven't heard a word now all of a sudden hasn't changed anything now they're calling to see why we haven't paid the bill so I emailed him and said hey you were going to look at this bill and you know yeah yeah I did yes I will is there any is there what amount would you what what are you thinking and I said to myself I'm glad you're laughing because that's appropriate I you know what if I screw something up in business and what you certainly have I don't leave it on the customer I say you know what Mrs Jones I'll tell you what i' like to give you half off on this it didn't go right I know you were just inconvenience that sound good and I make the offer I don't say to the customer what would you like to pay for this I just don't think it's her problem and her responsibility so I've been struggling with whether to tell him no you tell me what you're going to do with the bill and what whatever it is I'll pay it or whether I should tell them I think you should take X off or I don't know so you tell me well first what was the purpose of that meeting did he accomplish anything in that hour I made a major change in my accounting department and he or I or both of us thought it'd be a good idea to come in and review the accounting department and what we do here and he came out to go through that then his argument will probably well I had to put drive time in there and I think right you mean the drive time that you were on the phone the entire time billing up another client that was the time I'm paying for did that accomplish anything did did his hour no he went through and went through here's how the accounting department works which gets me back to many accounts have never actually worked in an accounting department in a company and really don't necessarily understand how it all works how it should work and you'd think it they would all know but all I can tell you is there wasn't any great aha from this whole meeting and you maybe you could throw it back on me okay I'm not listening whatever okay fair enough I just think it was kind of an egregious bill for coming out for an hour and so you haven't paid any of this yet no part of me thinks just pay the bill and then part of me thinks send him an email and say you know what here take 25% off I'll be happy and then part of me says send him a thing and just go no you know what you decide just send me a bill for what you've heard my argument as to why I'm not happy about the bill you decide what you think's appropriate send me the bill I'll pay it so those are the three choices Jackie Sean what do you think I'm do you value the relationship are they doing a good job for you in other places that's a very tricky question because it depends what you expect out of your accounting firm are they doing the taxes properly yes have they helped me procedurally with giving me some insight into I don't think you need a controller I I don't think you need a CFO you need a controller no I don't think you need a controller I think you need a blank and do I think that there's some great accounting firm out there that's going to come in and do what what I think I no I don't I've lowered my expectations over the years I I believe that most many whatever word you want to use accounting firms do your tax returns period and the one ones that say they're advisers and stuff my experience over the years and this isn't just with one accounting firm this is with three different accounting firms my experience over the years with three different accounting firms is they couldn't advise thems out of a paper bag and so you hire them to do a a campaign to recruit new employees I hired the they a department of their accounting firm that does recruiting and they charge three and a quarter an hour and they couldn't find a good candidate all right I'll give you the Crux of the problem they couldn't find a good candidate so then she says you know I hate to say it I think we might have to use a contingency based recruiter and I know one that I use okay okay if that's what it's going to take do it they hire the recruiter they send me a resum the resume has a person on there that's had five jobs over six years right right exactly I say to the recruiter to my to the person at the C from I go what the hell this person's had five jobs in six years she goes you know they shouldn't send them to you they should send them to me and I'll review them I said oh let me get this straight then I should pay a contingency accounting firm to send you bad resumés and then I should pay three and a quarter an hour for you to go through the bad resumes to decide they're bad yeah this isn't working and that was the last conversation I had with her so that's why I was upset do they do a good job with your accounting in taxes okay your silence speaks volume no I got it no I I told you I told you I've lowered my expectations over the years you shouldn't have to but I need it's it's I don't think that's what accounting firms generally do I don't think they come in and help you set up your accounting department and it's just I don't know what you know only Jay Jay that's not the question she asked you she asked you are you happy with the basic that they're doing yeah sure okay listen I'm not looking toow listen I'm a big boy I would just fire him if I so so it's just a matter of I just want to do quote unquote the right thing and I I'm struggling with I I am guilty as charged that I should have when she said three in a quarter an hour I should have said it myself boy that's a lot of money for a non-cpa person who is probably making you tell me aund a quarter a year so they're making uh 6075 an hour and they're billing them out at three and a quarter I I I and I and I signed off on it I said okay you know so I mean this is just endemic of two major problems one is the recruiting industry in general which is largely broken and the second which is the accounting industry which has tried really hard to Pivot to an advisory based model but but really it's having a hard time doing and I would say a tiny fraction as successful as that and in my experience um I think your hunch is accurate that these folks can do taxes just fine because that's a rules and compliance-based universe and then if you need somebody who's actually Dynamic and can think differently and creatively that's a different company it isn't even just that it's about Personnel it's about interviewing my accounting manager and figuring out should this person be left that kind of stuff it's it's it's business it's straight business HR business and that's not what accountants usually do HR and accountants are kind of two different animals so you knew that though when you hired them to to try to do these things right does that factor into your decision about whether to pay them or not I'm just struggling with I signed off on the three and a quarter an hour and I shouldn't have and and and here let's just get the big perspective here because this is important as a business owner if you hire a recruiting firm they're going to charge you tell me 30% right John if they're if they're contingent there's also there's also retain search okay but let's just say you do that 30% and let's say for just a blank number you're going to pay someone 120 Grand okay so you're going to pay $36,000 in contingency so the fact that I've spent 12 with the idea that maybe by buying the 12 I have the risk of not finding somebody but if I pull it off I saved a lot of money okay that's part of The Balancing Act of why you do consistency versus not it's not a sure thing if you pay him per hour you're gambling that well I think I'll be able to find somebody when I spend the 15 instead of spending the 36 so I knew what I was getting into with that on the other hand I think whatever time was put in dealing with this recruiter I think that's where they owe me something so maybe I'm helping my heal self here by talking to myself maybe that's the answer say you know what take 20% off and I'll pay the bill I think they owe me that because I think that was absolute that they sent me a resume and her answer instead of her saying that's ridiculous you know what I'm not don't use this guy she tells me she should review him first really it just feels like you've stumbled into a really bad fit like I said the the recruiting industry is a mess it's not it it's not usually advantageous for employers I mean most of the clients I have they go a totally different route in terms of getting talented help because a it's expensive to doise recruiters and B B the incentives are all wrong for the recruiter if there's a lot of churn and turnover it's to their advantage and and that's the broken part of the model okay before we get the hate mail let's just all agree there are some wonderful recruiters out there that do an excellent job and care about their clients I'm sure of that are you gonna say the same for accountants Jay yes absolutely I just want to say I I I I do know of good firms you know there's a there's a but they're not contingent they're they're Ain search generally um and and really if you shop hard and you look at their process and their guarantees it's a really good way to understand have they set their model up in a way that is built for success for both groups and well you tell me do you think three and a quarter an hour is a reasonable number that's not the right question that's not the right question they you you you're buying on their parameter which is which is a broken parameter I I just think actually you've just found a poor vendor you know I mean that's that's just fundamental so two and a quarter would be too much a 100 a qu 100 an hour would be too much any amount of money is too much because their system isn't very good so you need to find a different vendor that has a process and a methodology that works well if they're valuable to you from a tax perspective and from getting this stuff done then you know pay some portion of it pay all of it I don't know just to protect the relationship if that's valuable to you m not pay just move on you know just move on but hire somebody whose process is remarkable back to the Purple Cow you found a very unremarkable vendor I'm sorry all right my thanks to Shawn busy Jay GS and Jackie Russo and to our sponsor the great game of business which helps businesses use an open book management system to build healthier companies you can learn more at Great game.com sl21 hats thanks everybody one thing before you go everything we do at 21 hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together so if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report please tell a friend tell an enemy tell every business owner you know your word of mouth entrepreneur to entrepreneur will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us thank you it means a lot this episode was produced by another entrepreneur Jess dubron founder of blank word Productions thanks for listening everyone [Music]