Carol Marzouk - Executive Lion Taming and Why You Might Need It!

Hi everyone, it's Bill Black, the exit coach from the Exit Coach Radio show. You know, one of the biggest questions I get on the show is what exactly goes into a business exit plan and when should I start creating mine? Well, I always tell people that the best time to start was 5 years ago, but the next best time is now because you never know when you might need it. So we put together a free report that describes what an exit plan is and what you should know. You can get it free by texting Exit plan with no spaces to 44222. That's exit plan to 44222. Again, text exit plan to 44222. Welcome to the Exit Coach Radio show, the show for baby boomer business owners who are looking for cutting edge information as they plan their 3 to 10 year business succession and exit. Every week we interview top professional advisors for their best tips, strategies, and precautions so you can be well planned. And now here's your host, the exit coach Bill Black. Let me tell you a little bit about my next guest. Um, let me phrase it this way. If, if law firm partners are throwing chairs and causing conflict at work, the CEO's trying to align the senior leadership team to leverage each other better, or your client is working with someone they can't stand, know that it is possible to transform behavior in the workplace. Internationally recognized Carol Marzuk, the executive lion tamer. Resores peace in the workplace by extracting poor behavior that destroys trust and obstructs progress. She's the bilingual business relationship speaker, coach, and CEO of Leadership and Soul, who has also become known as a therapy for business. And today we're going to talk about why are you waiting to turn your toxic folks around. Carol, thanks so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you on. It's a pleasure to be here, Bill. How are you doing? Doing well, thank you. Doing well. Well, you know, so much fun to talk with people I know that have been on the show before and that I see out and about and of course we don't get to see each other as much personally these days because of COVID, but it's great to hear your voice, and I hope you're doing well. Doing extraordinarily well. Thank you for asking. Likewise. I'm not surprised to hear that you're thriving. Tell us a little bit about a little bit more about you and your background and tell us about this, uh, this moniker that you have the executive lion tamer. I love it. Well, uh, me and my background, well, I, you know, I was born in Mexico City, uh, with a family of 5th of 5 girls, a constant conflict in my house, you know, um, I think the first time that I was on your show, we might have talked about how they tried to throw me out of the 9th story, uh, floor and um there was just, you know, constant. It was a constant issue all the time, right? And so I wasn't trying to just survive in the world. I was trying to mediate a conflict between my sisters or between my parents and my sisters. And so, uh, it just became very second nature to me. And so I learned very quickly how to, how to help everybody see the other points of view and, um, and how to make it a win-win for everybody. Um, and so, and so it just became a very natural thing and I, and I love what I do and, and, uh, the executive lion tamer, the moniker came about though, because one of my clients, uh, it was actually a law firm, referred me to another law firm where the rainmaker of the firm, and this happens all the time, the rainmaker of the firm was making, uh, obviously, a lot of money for the firm and it's excellent, excellent litigator. And um you know, he was, he was incredible in the courtroom, of course, but he was also very toxic in the law firm. And so we had, you know, you know how in the movies you see people like looking out the window like a watch crew to see if somebody had just parked the car they tell everybody that that person's here. Yeah, so this was literally happening and um. So every time this person, you know, this litigator would come, you know, park the car, they say, oh my God, he's here, right? So everybody would now be anxious because he was about to walk in the door and who knows what they were gonna experience then. And so, uh, there was, you know, a lot of anxiety and a lot of trouble that came in through the door every time you walk through the door. So they had me meet him and he, you know, we sat down and, you know, he said, look, here's the thing, I know, I know why they want me to meet you and it's nothing personal, but I don't need you. No, I, I, I'm doing great and they have to figure it out because I'm the one bringing in all the money. And so they have to figure out how to work with me, not me, change anything about me. And so, and so I said, you know, I get it. I absolutely get it so um we're not the right fit, right? So here's I'm not for everybody and so here's my card and you know if anything changes or uh if you know anyone that's coachable, I only work with coachable people so if you don't know of anybody here's my card and um and I thought he'd throw it away though honestly and about a month and a week later. He called me and, and I had no sleep at this point and, and I was really giddy. And when I have no sleep, I, I think everything's funny. And so he calls me and he says, hey Carol, do you remember me? And uh and I said, of course, of course. And he said, well, you know, I just threw a chair across the room and I almost hit, he raised her shoulder actually. He said, you know, I almost hit uh an associate. And so I So are you calling me because you need better aim? He's not happy when I said that. He said, this is not funny, you know, you said that you only work with coachable people and now I've got a lawsuit. The, the firm is being sued and now not only do I need help, but now I need you to uh help us get rid of the lawsuit. And so I. Of course, you know, and so, and so I did. I started working with them. I still am. I'm, I'm working with them. It's a completely different place now and um they've become quite the loyal client, and, and I'm still coaching him and he's a, he's still a kick ass litigator in the courtroom and, and just quite a different person in the law firm. So that's how that came about. They started calling me the executive lion tamer because of that story and my clients caught on and, and so that's, that's how that came about, though. That's a great story, and there are a lot of angry lions out there who are business owners who probably think similarly that it's my business. Why should I change? Yet they have good talented people that cringe when they come into the office. That that is kind of an unusual story, isn't it, where someone who is actually the lion has decided that they need you because That of something that happened, you know, that a lot of people just continue to go on and be angry and and life goes on. Why, why do most organizations wait so long before they decide to do anything about their toxic people? So sweet because they feel, first of all, they don't want to tackle it because it's messy. People don't like to deal with emotion, especially in the workplace. It's messy, they don't want to get their hands dirty, and there's a lot at stake. It's a paycheck. It's their business. They spend a lot of time with these people and so they hope it just goes away. And so they turn a blind eye to it and they, you know, they, they just figure, you know, I'll just learn how to deal with it. And of course, it doesn't go away. And so they wait and they wait and it gets to the point where, again, like this, right? It gets to the point where there's a lawsuit or it gets to the point where now we're dealing with a CEO who I, you know, calling people names, you know, I had a, a new client come and, and, you know, apparently the CEO is calling people the c-word and, um, and just like things that, you know, you don't realize can really happen in today's social unrest and and this kind of environment, there's still, it's still happening and There are so many blind spots that we have and so, so much happening underneath the surface, not only with uh the people around us, but also with ourselves, that we don't want to tackle it. And so we just sit there and we take it and we take it until it's in our face and we can't, we, we just can't sit still anymore because now we're facing something grander. Than us and, and now our company is at stake. Now we have lawsuits at stake. Now, now we can't turn a blind eye. Yeah, and if it's, so if it's, I've been in situations where there have been owners that are very nice and they have moody, let's say, key employees, prima donnas that really bring a lot to the business and they're afraid to deal with that situation. But when they try to sell the business, especially if it's in a, you know, an industry where people know people, I've, I've seen that derail a sale because that person. Um, nobody wants that in their workplace. Nobody wants that attitude in their workplace. But in situations where it's the owner, it's a double whammy because the owner, I mean, Carol, do they know they're being lions? Many times they do, and they, you know, they feel that what got them to the dance will keep them at the dance for a long time. And then there's something that happens and they realize that that's not the case, but you know you're talking about mergers or you're talking about the sell of a business and that absolutely, that's a great scenario though, you know, many times I'm called in when that happens. They're, they've been working on this deal for a long time and then at the very end, and we're talking years, right? You, you're in this business, we're talking years and then all of a sudden it gets derailed and they call me in. Because something goes haywire, everything goes sideways because of something like this. And um and so then I have to, you know, I have to figure out how we, we can fix it. And it, it is, it's because of this, it's because of ego, it's because of bias, and it's because of these blind spots. And, and yes, I think they do, they do, and, and a lot of it is born out of. Their identity being the business and also the insecurities that come in with um what, what are they really worth without their business? What are they really worth if they take certain pieces. Of their life away? What is their value now? And um and if they stop being a certain way. Then what does that mean for their identity? Then how will they be? What is left of them, right? These are very deep questions and it's all underneath the iceberg stuff that they will not share with anyone, um, but for some reason they, they allow themselves to share it with me and so it allows me to then move the conversation forward, especially when there's a merger or a sale of a business, um. And we, you know, and then that allows us to then discuss the culture and the flight risks and all the other stuff that can, can make a, a merger or a sale of a business, you know, go sideways later. Now Carol, the famous group, the Eagles had two big personalities, Don Henley and Glenn Frey, and towards the end they didn't like each other very much offstage, but they came together on stage to make beautiful music and they, they were, you know, they didn't necessarily hang out after the show. But they, they work together through through the concert so that the audience a harmonious group. Are you kind of teaching people to act harmonious or are you actually a champion of actual behavior change? Does it, does this, does this bleed over into their, their lives and their relationships with others? It does bleed over and I am a champion of, of true behavior change. I work on the, I work on the underneath the iceberg stuff. um I'm not, I'm not about pretending because the pretending is exhausting. So you know, um, and those two, right, it's exhausting and so getting off that stage whether it be real for the Eagles or metaphorically every day is, is absolutely exhausting and, and what I want my clients to, to feel and their quality of life to be is, you know, I want them to. To be able to give part of their energy to their family and, and to themselves. And, and if they have to put that kind of energy into pretending it's just too much. So, so I go into um the depths and I go into that, the part of themselves that they don't share with anyone. And I actually do feel especially now during COVID, I, I've been doing a lot of marriage counseling and family counseling. As you can imagine, um, saving a lot of marriages, believe it or not, um, because it is important and um And yeah, transformation is, is definitely important, and we do. We talk about the things that that need to be talked about that nobody wants to talk about, but it's private and um and we decide on the course of action that makes sense for them, and they take all the action. So they never lose faith. They're the ones in charge. I'm just kind of there, you know, I'm letting them take the rein. And I'm helping them do it by just helping them understand how to uncover what's holding them back. So what's if someone's listening, Carol, and they say, you know, I feel grumpy or maybe I know someone who's a grump. What, what would you suggest that they can, they can do right now for themselves or for that person? What's a first step towards towards happiness, I guess, and harmony? I think the first step is just awareness bill, um, you know, we have our own biases and our own filters and so I would say just separate yourself from your emotions and get data. So that we can start to see the data. And by we, I mean, you, the person doing it. Um, so start to journal, you know, when you start to see your boss, You know, yelling or throwing things or, you know, punching an air conditioner or, or just being grumpy, right? Start to just journal and, and start to notice patterns. Take notes, notice patterns, and then also notice patterns within yourself and how you're reacting to it. This works at home, this works at home, at work, um, and, and just start to notice. Um, things that they say, the way they behave, the sign, right? that they show. Maybe, maybe there are certain conversations that they have with certain people or maybe certain projects. And so you start to, to recognize the triggers. And then you can start to see the data around what we can expect. And once you start to see it on paper around them, but also about you, right around you, how are you being impacted by this and, and how are you behaving? What are your signs? Separate that onto paper so that it's no longer part of your being and now it's data. That you can objectively look at so that you can then decide how to move forward. I think that's the first step. So noticing it and and starting to turn it into data, that's interesting. And then if it's, if it is someone else, if it's a boss or some, you know, someone that you care about that you know needs to change and you don't know if they're coachable or not, that's the big issue. How do you, how would you suggest someone bring it up to that person to say, you know, I've noticed you have some, some issues, and I think you could, you could do better here. they put a sticky note on the on their desk with your name on it or what what's the best way? Yeah, you know, give him a sticky note. Yeah, you give him a sticky note that says you're broken. That would work, um, you know, you know, I think what would work is just to ask them, hey, um, you know, how are you doing? and, and how, you know, if you could change anything, what would you change? So don't say anything about I've noticed this or hey, you really could stand to change this, right? Because immediately. You're gonna get defensiveness, and it feels like you're judging them. Instead, ask them a question and your tone of voice is very important here. So you want to ask them a question in a tone of voice that is caring and you really do have to care because you can't fake that. So you have to ask them in a caring voice, you know, hey, how are you doing? And maybe what could be better. And so you wanna shift their mindset into that, hey, yeah, maybe, what could be better, right? Maybe they, you want them to tell you what you want to tell them. That's the trick. OK, I, I, I don't think that's very smart, um. So asking them what would you what would you change? is there or is there anything you would change? I'm struggling with the, the phrase for that that could be so important. Help, help me out. What would I say? Yeah, so how are you doing? And you know, if there's anything that you would change, it always comes out differently for me, you know, but um don't want, don't want to ask a closed-ended question. So, uh, you know, make them think a little bit because the whole idea is to get their mind to shift. And so, you know, if you would change anything. To, to make this moment better, or to, you know, whatever it is you're, they're struggling with, if it's their relationship, their marriage, their work life, or maybe you could insert that, right? If you would, if there is anything that you would change, or if I gave you a magic wand, right? And you could use it to change anything in late. Right, what would you use it for? How would you use it? What would you change? And this gets them to think and to talk about it. Now, be prepared for them to say nothing. That would be the first response of somebody who's very close and not used to talking about it. And that's OK, that's OK. The, uh, uh, the important thing is that they start to think about it. You have, you, you have planted the seed and then later on, if you're taking a walk or whatever, yeah, it's really interesting, you know. So I wonder, have you given any further thought to that? I know you said nothing before. I'm just wondering, is it still nothing? Again, the tone is very important. Right, but it's very nonjudgmental and non-intrusive. I wonder, you know, it's, hey, I care. It's never, I think you should change. It's never, I've noticed this. It's never, you're broken, you should fix this, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's, I, I get it. You don't want to confront a person directly with with that. There's a lot to this. This is an important issue. It can change, especially in our world where we talk about future exits. This can change people's lives in the direction of a transfer of ownership. Carol, you're such a terrific. A resource for our listeners and your is your website, your website now is executive lion tamer.com, is that correct? That is correct. Yes. I love it. OK, executive lion tamer.com. Carol, you're always fun to talk with. I really enjoy our interviews, but more importantly, you bring great, great insights and information to our listeners that can be of tremendous help, and I hope our listeners were listening and that they will go find you at executive Lyontamer.com. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, Bill. Thank you. Have a great one. Thank you for listening to Exit Coach Radio.