Dashboard: Even Made in the USA Manufacturers May Not Survive the Tariffs

Welcome to another 21 Hats dashboard. I'm here with Greg Sugar, who has done a lot of different things in his career. He's been a lawyer. He co-founded and [music] sold an early direct to consumer business called the Tie Bar. He got back into men's accessories with another company he founded called Bow Ties. That's the French bow as in B au. And he's also an investor in an apparel business called Carry Amber Intimates. Welcome to the podcast, Greg. >> Thank you for having me, Lauren. My pleasure. Greg, I think both of your businesses, but I know for sure one of them, you you actually manufacture in this country. Supposedly, the tariffs were created to help domestic man manufacturers like you. Have they helped? >> Funny how that works. They have not helped. Um, yes. Bow Ties of Vermont is a company I bought six and a half years ago. We are a 32-year-old company and we manufacture, meaning we cut and sew all of our own bow ties, neck ties, other men's accessories in Middbury, Vermont. Um, the reason why an American manufacturer like ours would get hurt like uh from these tariffs is because of this. The inputs that we use, so our fabric, our raw materials are all from overseas. So you might ask the question, well then why don't you just source them domestically? Um the answer is they don't make the kind of fabric that we need domestically which is silk jakard fabric. All that type of fabric that is used to make men's neckwear is made either in China mostly in China or in Italy. There are other parts of the world uh that make some although they are not nearly as good as the Chinese or even the Italians and so um we are forced to get our fabric from overseas and when we bring it in from overseas we pay a tariff on that fabric. You would think that an American manufacturer might be exempt from these tariffs in order to protect us which is the supposed edict from the Trump administration but in fact uh we're not protected and we do indeed pay tariffs. So when the tariffs go up, so do our costs. >> Was there a time when the tariffs were first announced that you thought this might actually benefit you? >> Yeah. I mean, there are a couple things. One was the tariffs. Um, we've always had to pay tariffs, just so you know. This isn't a new thing. Um, however, Trump got on television multiple times saying, and literally these words, if you make things here in the US, you won't pay a tariff. So, we thought that was a signal that finally tariffs the older tariffs would be removed for from uh from our fabric. Um, but little did we know, not only was that not true, but the new tariffs were also going to be put onto our uh what we import. So, tariffs have only gone up and costs have only gone up for us. >> What were you paying in tariffs uh before this year began? >> Before this year began, we were paying 25%. Um it actually was 7.2% before 2018 when Donald Trump put in the first 25% tariff um on Chinese goods. So it went up to 25% then. This year um as you know it's just been crazy. It's China in particular. First of all, Italy is now 15% when it was zero. So that went from zero to 15%. China of course has been all over the place as we sit here right now toward in midocctober. Um the tariff is still another 30% on top of the 25% so we're 55%. But he's made this social media threat to China which of course all presidents do. I'm kidding. And they are and they're he's now talking about another 100% tariff. There's been no executive order issue. There's been really been no further word on it. So even though we are now 11 days away, I think as as date of this recording, 11 days away from November 1st, the day that he claims they're going to go up, we still don't know. And by the way, not only do we not know if there's going to be additional tariffs, we don't know when they would apply. Do they apply to shipments that leave the dock in China or leave the airport in China on November 1st? Do they have to arrive here before November 1st? I'm lucky enough to be in a position at least with Bow Ties Vermont where I can control this the shipping and the ordering a little bit easier. We're a little bit flexible, more flexible. But uh my other company and certainly so many other American companies really need to understand is this a would this apply for shipments that take off before November 1st or does it have to dock here? And that's a huge problem because we're not talking about an additional 10 or 20%. 100% is a huge difference and in essence an embargo on trade from China. People will not be able to make profits if they are paying 100% tariffs on China. So we really need to get this straight and the fact that he hasn't even addressed it nor of course has Congress pushed him to address it is really frustrating for American businesses of all kinds. >> Are you trying to rush any orders in right now to try to beat the 100% possibility? >> Yeah, we are. We actually had a a flight that was scheduled for November 2nd. I was able to get my factory to push it up and it's supposed to land October 30th if everything is okay. It's going to be in our hands October 30th. Um, of course, if there's any delays, it might come after November 1st. And again, I don't know what the tariff's going to be on November 1st. And so I could be in for a bit of trouble, but as of right now, I was able to rush that in effectively and we'll be fine. Um that's for bow ties of Vermont for [snorts] Carrie Amber and again for so many other small businesses that order literally pallets and pallets of of products from China. They'll we'll we use ocean freight for that and it's a much longer process and you just don't have the control or flexibility or agility to change ship dates and all that other stuff. we may end up having to use a bonded warehouse which can be an astronomical expense um where you basically don't pay uh your tariff bill until it's released. But again, this uncertain >> just to explain that, Greg, you would do that. You you put it into the bonded warehouse and you don't pay the tariff until you actually take delivery. And you do that because you're hoping that the tariffs will be reduced in the meantime or >> That's correct. If if they go up, yeah, you keep them in a bonded warehouse until well until you say otherwise. And what you try to do is you try to hold off until the president, you know, sort of renegotiates, which ultimately is him negotiating against himself and lowers the tariffs, but it's unknown where he's going with this. You know, that's one of the biggest problems with him is there's no there's no logic behind his tariffs. there's no predictability and as a result like nobody knows what's next. I know a lot of people like to joke around about Taco Trump and there's certainly been a lot of instances of him chickening out but there's also been instances of him not chicken. So I don't really know what's next and and again 100% tariff is a a deal breakaker. I mean it's going to put people out of business. Can you tell us the value of the shipment that you're expecting or hoping to get before November 1st? >> Um, for Boes of Vermont, our shipment is I think $17,000, right? So that's the So our tariff bill is going to currently be um you know roughly you know half that whatever that is 55% and it could go up to I don't know if it's 100 or 155%. Another thing he's completely unclear with. So, um, yeah, our our costs have gone up and we've raised prices as a result. I mean, we had to we we held like a lot of companies, we held off as long as we could, but at this point, we can no longer >> Well, if I'm not mistaken, you bought you saw this coming. You knew there was a possibility. And I assume in January, maybe before he took office or maybe even before uh 2024 ended, you placed much larger orders uh than you usually do. Is that correct? >> That's correct. and it got us through a big chunk of the year. I think until about June, we placed a new purchase order. Um, and at that point it sort of I can't remember where we were exactly, but basically I know we were still at 30%. I think we're in the middle of a 90-day extension. And so I had to place another order. I had no choice. And so we did pay the additional 30% tariff on that shipment again in addition to the original 25%. And um what it became inevitable we had to raise our prices. We tried to be strategic about it as ter as far as like which prices to raise and how much. Um I won't go through the details of all that but so in other words it hasn't been like completely across the board but we have in some places and so what's happened is to my company is what's happening to everyone's company which is there are no winners. Every company in America who's importing goods from overseas is paying higher costs than they were before. Those costs though are not fully being passed on to consumers because a consumer for is not going to pay for example 30% more than they used to. That's insane. And so what happens is companies are eating some of the cost and they're passing on some of the costs. So we pay more, customer pays more. There's no winners. You know, the only winner here is the US government is collecting more in tariffs. And now we're hearing that that tariff uh that tariff money is be the revenue is going to be to help subsidize farmers. >> Well, let me come I want to come back to that. I think that's a really interesting point. Uh but but first, can can you answer can can you tell us can you make money on under the current tariff regime? meaning let's pretend the 100% isn't going to happen as things stand right now. Is it possible for you to function profitably? >> Um we are barely making it to be to totally honest. I mean we are profitable. We are paying our bills. If if this 30% lasts forever, we're going to have to make a serious determination on raising prices even more and passing even more off. And the truth is is you know at a certain point you raise your prices and you start to lose the customers or their average order value stops starts to drop and uh ultimately we won't be selling as many uh ties, bow ties, cumber buns, pocket squares and so I may have to let go of of workers, you know, and at a certain point I'm not going to be able to make my monthly nut if we're not selling enough stuff. So it's hard to know where this is headed. I don't know how much of this I can eat forever. Um, >> what what has been the reaction to the price increases thus far? Have you seen a fall off in sales? Have you gotten angry push back from customers? What's it been like? >> Yeah. So, I mean, we're fortunate that customers are either accepting of it or don't notice it. Um, it's, you know, it's a good retailer will not tell its customers, hey, we're raising prices. You just kind of do it. Well, especially with a specialty item that people may not buy all the time. Um, I don't buy as many ties as I used to, um, I might not notice the 30% increase, I suspect. >> Yeah. Well, you would notice 30%. We we didn't raise it 30%. We we were raising it anywhere from 10 to 15. I will tell you, you know, right right around April, we sent an email to all of our customers letting them know that if the tariffs didn't drop, we more than likely would have to raise prices. And I got a lot of email back. I would say all of them were positive. Some of them were questioning why would an American manufacturer be paying tariffs? So we had to explain it to them. Um but it it was typically wellreceived. There were a lot of companies having sales around this. So basically saying prices are going up on I don't remember the date. Let's say it was May 31st. And so get everything now at the old price before the new price. So it even wasn't a sale, but it was more like a, you know, get it now, liquid prices go up type of sale. And there were some companies with great success with that. Although, you know, they're really pulling forward their sales typically, right? So maybe the sale went well, but I suspect that right after prices went up, they were probably a little quieter than usual. I don't know if this makes any sense at all, but given this environment, have you looked at the economics of actually doing your man manufacturing overseas, could this possibly push you to take that route? >> Um, it's funny you say that. I have a colleague who is doing exactly that. Um, I'm not though. I we are so the made in the USA aspect of our company is so ingrained in our brand that it would just I might as well just close up and start a new company. Uh, but the the funny part to the whole thing is the tariffs are are damaging and they're hurting American companies, but yet they're not damaging enough where I'm still more expensive than anyone who would bring in finished goods, finished ties and bow ties from China. So, my competitors who do everything overseas are still paying far less than my costs. And of course, that's even worsened by the fact that I'm paying tariffs, too. Now, you know, in theory, I'm not paying tariffs on the labor side of my of my um expense, my cost of goods, but as tariffs set in, settle in, and inflation starts to go up, that means I'm now going to have to start paying my workers more so that they can afford their goods when they go home and they have to buy groceries and other things. So, eventually we get nailed, but the the answer is I'm not moving anything overseas. um it sort of would defeat the purpose of this company. But the mere fact that I even have to consider that just shows you how ludicrous the idea is of putting tariffs on companies that make things domestically. >> So, one of the reasons I've really been looking forward to speaking with you is, you know, a lot of people are in similar positions to you and have had no idea what to do about this. You've really made an effort to do something about it. uh going to Washington and lobbying for uh legislation that you think would would help. Tell us first, how did you start thinking about that and then what did you try to do? >> Um someone from the National Retail Federation in Washington DC had reached out to me. They're a lobbying organization, a political one and a political one. Um and they had reached out to me. they had been introducing um small business owners from around the country to uh lawmakers and their staff to help tell the story of what's happening to all of us. And so I I've actually been back three times now. We've met with senators, representatives, their staff. We've met even with the uh Trump administration, Department of Commerce, Department of Treasury, and um I at one point drafted a Senate bill that um I was able to get Senator Peter Welch to support these >> Wait, you you actually wrote up the bill yourself? >> I did. I did. >> Do you do you have experience doing that? >> Um no, but I have experience with Chat GBT. [laughter] >> Excellent. >> Yeah, they did a great job because uh I g I sent that one page I I first of all, I made it a one-page Senate bill deliberately because I don't want this to be complicated. And the bill basically said um domestic manufacturers are exempt from paying tariffs on raw materials and and other inputs that they need in order to create their products. And uh Senator Welch from Vermont, he got very much behind it, but it is my understanding is it's never even been introduced. I think he might be looking for bipartisan support by someone in the Republican party, but Republicans are absolutely terrified to come any come anywhere near the tariff discussion. What they're what's really happening is obviously if they speak out against President Trump, they they face the real threat of being primar and they'll probably lose that primary. But equally, if if they were on the other side and they and they in essence codified all of these tariffs and said, "Yeah, we support it. We're going to pass a law." I think a lot of them run the risk of losing in the general election because I think tariffs are so widely unpopular with the general populace. So, what they're doing is they're just saying, "Okay, we're just not going to touch this. We're just going to keep saying, yeah, it's President Trump using his emergency powers um to do this, and there's nothing we can really do about it." So, they're just like keeping their hands off it alto together. Um, so it's I've been going to DC and I walk out of there. I walk out of the Capitol building with a lot of confidence and I feel like I've made headway, but then I come back and weeks, months go by and I don't hear anything from anybody. >> I would think this would have a lot of support among major corporations. I mean, if if that bill that you described, if I understand it correctly, that would be tremendously beneficial to to the car companies, for example, um you know, big corporations that are bringing in uh raw materials to to manufacture hard goods like that. [clears throat] Has there do you know the people you've talked to in Washington? Have they made uh that outreach to find that kind of corporate support? No, I I think the court the automotive industry in particular though it's a little trickier because a lot of the inputs they use from Mexico and Canada are actually stuff that we make here as opposed to let's say the silk fabric that that is not made here. So I think steel is a good example, right? So steel is made domestically in the US and I think that's why Trump is having so so many whatever he's having this conion about uh tariffing the the steel that comes in at least from Canada. And so I don't know that that part would really settle well in the in part of my Senate bill. I recognize or I I forget if I recognize or I require that in essence the companies prove that the foreign outputs I should say inputs are not made here in the US. Um, so that would distinguish us from the automotive companies, right? So where where the pro where the uh the raw materials, the foreign goods, whatever are not available in the US, that's when you're exempt. So I think the car companies wouldn't necessarily qualify for this exemption. >> I see. And I did that on purpose because honestly that that's where all the hiccups come. I'm trying to make this like sort of as hiccupfree as possible. And I could tell you that the cut and sew industry as a whole, in other words, the textile industry, we're importing fabric from everywhere. The US at this point basically, I believe, only makes cotton. And that, you know, even cotton is not like as as readily available as it used to be. It certainly doesn't apply to my world. And um and of course, it makes it the price go up also. Like when you use domestic, we're already if you're a domestic manufacturer, you're already behind the eight-ball in pricing, right? You can't keep up with China. So if you're a cut and sew and you're ordering fabric from the US, you don't get any advantage pricing wise. You order from China and at least you can keep your cost down a little bit. You're a little competitive. You order from the US and you're kind of like your prices are super high. So that doesn't apply to me. I'm just sort of speaking on their behalf. And I mean, it just goes to show you there's so much there's so much to consider when you talk about tariffs. And I I get into these wars on LinkedIn with these uh non- retail experts who like to show up every so often and say, "Why don't you just make things in the US?" And, you know, it's just it's a it's a complicated answer. You know, it depends on so many different things. Your industry, um your cost, I don't know. There's just so many factors that that play in. And it's not meant to have a real debate through comment section of a LinkedIn post. I just wish that, you know, I wish that people would stop listening to politicians as to whether or not tariffs are good and listen to economists and listen to retailers and importers, the people who are living it or the economists who study it. Let those people tell you whether or not tariffs are good for this country. A politician has no idea. My sense is that you are winning the battle for public opinion. Is that your sense? >> Um, yeah. I >> I don't think tariffs are popular. >> No, they're not. But until you really feel the pain at the store, they're not you're it's not going to be a number one issue. And by the way, we all will feel it. I've been reading that basically it's going to still take another six six months at this point. I I read six to nine months over the summer. So, let's call it another three to six months. we're really going to start seeing prices rise. But what's so amazing about our political world is it felt like when President Biden was in office, you know, one half of the country said, "No, things are fine with pricing and the other half said everything's too expensive." And now it's like the reverse and uh you feel like Democratic base talks about how high prices are and the Republicans say no, I don't see any difference, you know, or or they're blaming Biden, you know, I don't know. But like it's it's amazing how people just sort of see things differently even though the the facts haven't changed. >> We do live in interesting times. I I want to go back to uh the issue you raised uh about subsidizing farmers. Um you know in your bill you talk about providing protection for small domestic manufacturers. There there is precedent for that kind of carveout or that kind of subsidy. Uh Trump did it for farmers in his first term and he has [clears throat] kind of flirted with the idea this time around talking about protecting soybean farmers. Um and and to do it using money collected in tariffs to subsidize those soy soybean farmers, which which means money that you kick in could end up going to protect the farmers. I'm curious how you would feel about that. >> Well, as you can imagine, I'm pissed at that idea. [laughter] Um, no disrespect to farmers, but why are they getting subsidies? Why am I not getting subsidies? Why are they using my money to subsidize them? Uh, it is Trump who caused the problem. He reminds me of the guy who throws somebody into the water and then throws that person a life preserver and then has to be thanked for saving that person's life. He caused this problem with the with the farmers. These subsidies are not because farmers are having problems let's say due to weather then I necess I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. But the problem he caused for them the soybeans in particular you know is a Trump caused issue. My understanding is fine in particular used to order somewhere in the tens of billions of dollars a year in soybeans from us. Um and this year they've ordered zero like literally zero dollars >> and it's our biggest agricultural export as I understand. >> Yes, that's what I've heard too. So if that's all true um the idea of now subsidizing them with my tax dollars or my tariff dollars is absolutely insane. It's picking winners and picking losers. And I suppose that if retailers somehow were monolithic and voted as a block for Republicans, we would get subsidies. But we don't. We're splintered like most industries. And many of us are we're pretty much split. Let's say farmers on the other hand seem to, from what I hear, vote Republican, and that's why they're getting the subsidies. Again, >> well, wait a second. That I think that's largely true of business owners as well, don't you? I mean, I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I think I think business owners did favor Trump. >> I've not I've not heard that to be honest. I will tell you anecdotally in my experience, it feels 5050. Um, so I I don't know that >> I think it's probably much closer than among farmers, but >> Well, right. Let's we could probably agree on that, right? So, right, farmers for whatever reason. I mean, I don't I still don't even understand the why part. Why would a farmer uh vote Republican? But that's more of a political talking point, which I have some opinions on, but that's not probably relevant to this conversation. But they do. The fact is they do. And as a result, our tariff dollars are subsidizing the farmers. And again, that problem was caused by the Trump administration and these new tariffs. Going back to the lobbying effort, can you tell me what what did it feel like walking into those offices uh in in in the capital? Did you feel like you were being taken seriously? >> You know, there's a part of me that says the mere fact that they're taking the meeting means something, but some of the people that you meet with are clearly so mentally checked out that you start to realize that this might be more of like an exercise of checking a box. Yeah, I met with a small business owner. There were some staff members of Republican lawmakers who literally said to us, literally, uh, we're just going to trust the Trump administration on how he's handling tariffs. That was that was the response. And I was sort of, you know, like, well, then why'd you even take this meeting? >> Yeah. >> Um, and so like, and yet on the other hand, there were some who were very responsive. You know, they they got they got it. But it very much also felt off the record. I had a House member from the Republican party uh I said to him, I go, "Would you just do me one favor and stop saying the lie that foreign countries pay tariffs? If you can at least stop lying about that, we can have better conversations around whether tariffs are healthy." and he said, 'Yeah, you know, we've been talking about how much that's a forgot the words he used, but he basically acknowledged it was a lie, and so we've been talking about how to stop spreading that lie, and he realizes the damage it's doing. And that was sort of the end of the conversation. Oh, okay. That's great. So, are you going to do anything about it? Didn't say anything, you know, and and and Trump continues to lie. Yeah. Every time he speaks about it, he lies and says foreign countries pay the tariffs. It's a lie. >> People assume that lobbying is a game played best by people who have a lot of money, like big corporations, and that it's a much tougher environment for smaller businesses, even if they're somewhat united and coming together. >> Um, which is kind of interesting because politicians love to talk about how great small businesses are and [clears throat] how important they are, the backbone of the economy, but but they're not writing checks the way big businesses do. I'm curious if your experience has affected your thinking about that issue and whether it's even worth small businesses going to lobby in Washington. >> I would say it's only solidified that opinion because when we walk in, we're a little bit of like just a show for them. You know, I I walk in with, let's say, five to seven other business owners. We tell our our little story. Um you know, the the person sitting in front of us shows a little sympathy and then we're escorted out. I imagine that if I were the CEO of a major retailer, uh, that conversation is a little bit different. You know, I I'm not gonna claim that they write checks. Who knows? You know, campaign checks. I don't really know how that goes, but that's all we're doing. And and, you know, I don't know exactly what the NRF does. They're a lobbyist group. I don't know if or whom they write checks to, and I don't I don't think they're looking to do anything nefarious. They're only trying to communicate to lawmakers what's going on with small businesses. And by the way, retailers, 98% are small businesses. Would you believe that? 98% of small of retailers are small businesses. >> That would be the the percentage of businesses that can are considered retailers, but not the percentage of dollars taken in by retailers. Correct. >> Uh that is probably correct. Right. So if you of all the small businesses in the country, 98% of us are small. Well, the revenue, no, probably not. But it just but it just shows you how what a huge majority we make up and our voice is largely unheard. And I think the NRF is doing a great job of trying to have our voices heard. But, you know, that's all it really is. I mean, we're not we're not Walmart. We're not Amazon. We're not Target. So, I feel like it only goes so far. So, at the end at the end of all this, after three meetings, um despite the NRF doing such an amazing job, I don't think we've made any progress. And it's all because Republican legislators are afraid of Donald Trump. There's really no other reason. >> It's the the time of year where most businesses are starting to plan for next year, uh thinking about budgets, thinking about staffing. Um but there's from what you've just described here, there's so much uncertainty in your world. you you I mean you don't know what your costs are going to be two weeks from now. Are you able to do any planning for next year? >> We've done none. I mean honestly I'm trying to get through Christmas. We tried to plan properly for fabric. Um so right now we are just trying to get through Q4. I mean the truth is I we got to get past November 1. I mean that is like a a that's an enormous hurdle for us right now. Um we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know if it's a 60 or 90 day. As far as planning for 2026 or anywhere past it, it's impossible. I'm not hiring anyone new. I don't know what I'm going to do about bonuses this year or raises. Um I don't know how I'm going to order uh for fabric for next year. Like everything I do, every decision I make is, you know, are tariffs going to affect it? Sometimes it's directly and sometimes it's indirectly. And I know business owners everywhere. That's the same conversation we've been having really since the start of the year is the uncertainty is as damaging as the tariffs. And that and that part I I I don't think I we've stressed enough. There is that's why hiring has has gone down. I mean the economy I from my understanding the GDP has not really moved too much negative in the negative direction after all the adjustments. It's hard to even know anymore with all these numbers. Uh that who knows what's really true, but the hiring you're seeing freezes and I think a lot of that has to do with a combination of the tariffs and inflation which are related to the tariffs. >> Do you have a plan for what you will do on November 1st if in fact that 100% in addition tariff were to go into effect? >> We would wait the whole thing out for as long as we could if it never changed back. So it went to 100% permanently. There's a great chance we'd close up. >> Well, I think it just bears emphasis what you were saying before, the idea of picking winners and picking losers. In this case, if you were to be a loser, you would be a a manu a domestic manufacturer who has spent a great deal of energy building made in America into your brand. >> All for nothing. Did I miss anything, Greg? Anything else that you any other points you would like to make? >> I will say one other thing. You know, we were talking about bow ties of Vermont the whole time, but with respect to like Carrie Amber. So, we make women's intimates and we sell them to off-pric retailers at really low prices and the only way we're able to do that is to manufacture them overseas. It's the only way to keep the cost down. people who shop at off-pric retailers. A lot of them are shopping there not because they're bargain hunters who have money. They're people who are they're workingclass people. They don't make a lot of money. They can't afford $30 bras. They have to buy inexpensive bras, inexpensive underwear. And bra and underwear, by the way, is a necessity. It's not a luxury. And so making products overseas for inexpensive prices is actually good for the American economy. Believe it or not, it's important that we manufacture certain things here in the US products that are related to national security. But we don't really need to learn how to manufactured textiles here. We don't. And by the way, Secretary Besson said it himself at a press conference that the that we're not looking to reshore textile manufacturing jobs. So if we are under the if we can all agree that we're not looking to reshore things like textiles, then why tariff these these uh products that are coming in the US? Um that doesn't really make a lot of sense. And so I guess the point is having inexpensive consumer goods is an important part of our economy whether or not you know you want to admit it. I'm sorry that the products aren't made here in the US. That doesn't mean that we don't hire people. Carrie Amber has 40 employees. Those people would not have a job if we couldn't make these products overseas. >> 40 employees here in the US. >> Here in the US, right? And so we are employing Americans. good quality jobs, good salaries, all because we're manufacturing overseas. So the idea that we're not that we're losing jobs because things are being made overseas is a really narrow interpretation of what's going on. And I think that part seems to get lost. We need inexpensive items in this country. when 60% of the country uh 60% of the households in this country make less than 100,000 a year that means we need inexpensive products and inexpensive products don't come out of the US they come out of foreign countries in poorer countries typically in Asia and that's that's part of our economy and that's not a bad thing our our GDP has doubled since 2008 we went from a 14 trillion GDP economy to 28 trillion we've done that in part because we are importing inexpensive goods from overseas. [music] That doesn't sound like we're getting screwed to me. Sounds like we're doing quite well. >> Greg Sugar is the owner of Bow Ties, B AU Ties, [music] and an investor in Carrie Amber Intimates. Greg, thank you for taking the time. >> Thanks, Lauren. Thanks for having me. >> Have a great weekend, everybody.