Dashboard: Where Do You Turn When You’re Stuck?

Welcome to another 21 Hats dashboard. I'm Lauren Felman and I'm here with Kelly Bry who facilitates [music] peer groups for business owners and who is the owner of Second Stage Growth [music] which is based in Altuna, Wisconsin. Welcome to the podcast, Kelly. >> Thanks so much for having me, Lauren. >> Uh really a pleasure, Kelly. I I really wanted to talk to you because you have so much experience in the trenches with business owners, uh especially leading peer group conversations. Uh but first tell us a little bit about your background. How did you end up uh pursuing this line of work? >> Uh it was not a direct line by any [laughter] means. >> It rarely is. >> Um I grew up in New Jersey and u met my husband in college and we were both working in North Jersey uh and trying to figure out how we could ever possibly afford to have children or [laughter] um not have a horrendous commute to work every day. Um, so my husband got the opportunity to um >> I I grew up in New Jersey and I chose to live with that horrendous commute. [laughter] >> I don't miss it at all. >> Yeah. Well, I've stopped doing it. I don't miss it either. I think you made the right choice. >> Yeah. Yeah. We were working in New York and we were living um west of that about 15 miles and it took us over an hour every day to get to work and back and and couldn't figure out how do we have children? Are they in the car with us or where do they go to daycare? and we could either afford a car loan or child care and it just the math didn't mass at all. So when my husband got a chance to take what was considered his dream job at the time which was designing supercomputers for Cray Research which is based here in our area we made a big leap which was a huge change for us to leave our family in New Jersey and come here. Um, so that was this the starting point of all of this. And then um while he was working at Cray, a group of his friends talked about leaving their job and starting their own small business. I was at the time working for a large manufacturing company in their quality assurance department and um pregnant with our first child. And so he's like, "Hey, I think I'm going to quit my job, start [laughter] a brand new business with one of my buddies." And I'm like, "Hello, I'm six months pregnant. Is this good timing?" What? So, but anyway, he did quit his job and our son was born on September 30th and his first day in his brand new office was on October 1st. [laughter] I was still in the hospital. So, it was a little crazy, but that was my very first introduction to small businesses, especially um coming home from the hospital and then being asked to sign uh a personal guarantee, which was a new thing to me. >> Did you know that was coming? >> I had not realized that. I I guess I was focused on my own job and child birth and things like [laughter] that. Um and so he said um yeah, you're you know because you're my spouse and you know community property state and all like you just need to sign this. And I read it and I'm like okay let me get this straight. If this business thing doesn't work out for you not only are you unemployed but we're homeless because we're putting our house on the line for your business. And he's yep. [laughter] So I'm like you know >> and you signed it. I did sign it and I trusted him and I trusted what they were doing and they did their homework and um so but that was a um an eye openener for me. >> Well, let let me stop you there and and just ask you about that because that's something you know [clears throat] I've worked with a lot of very smart business journalists at prominent media publications and most of them have no idea that that is a routine step taken by business owners. >> And I am aware of that. It still kind of boggles my mind from time to time that [clears throat] people are willing to do it. Number one, and two, that we haven't come up with [laughter] >> another way to handle this. Oh my gosh. What are your thoughts about that? Do you do you advise people to sign or to not sign? How do you think about it in in dealing with business owners now? >> Well, you know, I guess my perspective is it's a risk. First of all, the bank doesn't want your house. They want your business to succeed. And if you work with the banks, especially, you know, local community banks that know the region, uh, they will do everything in their power to help you succeed. So, that's important to to recognize. They don't want to like foreclose on your house to get money back. So, it it sounds like it's a thing that could happen, but I don't think it happens as frequently as we might fear. Uh and then second of all I will to the bank on on the bank side of this or the lender side is if you're not willing to bet on yourself then why should somebody else? So um you know you have to have a little bit of faith and confidence in what you're doing. You know the bank always is looking for what's the owner contribution and if you're not willing to take a risk then why would they take a risk on you? >> That's a big risk as as you pointed out to your husband. [laughter] Um, [snorts] you know, you're right. My my sense is the same that it doesn't happen all that often, but I'm kind of curious as to why because, you know, the failure rate for startups is is quite high. Why doesn't it happen more often? >> That's a great question. I I you know, I think sometimes it's uh people do they'll self finance, so you don't need a bank loan necessarily to get your business launched. A lot of businesses are very easy to launch without a lot of upfront expenses. uh you know we all look for you know again the recommendation is friends and family is the first starting point and then go to the bank uh the news is always about VC funding and and giant tech companies buying that's not the reality of the you know everyday entrepreneur is not um going through VC funding and they're not putting slide decks together that's just not how the real world operates um and typically you know I guess I don't know the data on it whether people do end up having to sell their house or get a second mortgage on their house or, you know, cash in on their 401k. I think a lot of those things happen and it just happens quietly and we don't realize it, >> right? Okay. I interrupted you. [laughter] Your h how did your husband's business do? I assume you kept your house. >> We [laughter] we did keep our house. His business did very well, but there's always ups and downs and that was a new lesson for me as well. So, you know, the end of one year, he would say, "Okay, the business did great. you know, we've got profit sharing, the owners are all getting a bonus, and then maybe three or four months later, he'd say, "You remember that bonus? You know, I think we need to put it back in the company [laughter] again." Um, and so all that money was kind of like temporary, like we weren't ready to commit to it. So, we didn't make a lot of lifestyle changes. Um, and then if things were tough, you know, the owners would take a pay cut first to make sure that the employees were getting paid. And I saw how they prioritized their people uh as they went through this. the business ultimately ended up getting purchased and he stayed on as a you know to run the business um and then got purchased again and again. Um so he sat in one seat for a long time and had a whole lot of different bosses. Ultimately he he left because the it wasn't going well for him and started his own business yet again um which he still has running. And in the meantime, I got my uh MBA and started teaching uh business classes at the University of Wisconsin here in Oaklair and uh did a lot of market research and entrepreneurship type classes for um undergrads and for MBA students and started my own consulting business uh helping small businesses and I that's probably been um 20 years ago or so >> and no doubt that was inspired by your experience with your husband. Absolutely. Absolutely. I became a real passionate supporter of small business in general. I could see uh you know there's a lot of weight on the shoulders of a small business owner. Um and I think, you know, to to have to lay somebody off is painful. Um even if you need to fire them because they're not doing their job, it doesn't make it any easier. And small business owners, everything is on their shoulders. They take it all very personally. Um and it's it's overwhelming and scary to be a small business owner. and I wanted to use my knowledge and capabilities to help small businesses rather than the large organizations that I had worked for previously. And so I kind of grew into that over time. >> And how did that evolve? >> Um, well, I was lucky that in the state of Wisconsin when I started there was a grant program that would pay uh a professional business planner to help you put a business plan together to seek a business loan or launch your business. And so I got certified as a business plan writer and started working with small businesses all over the area. Learned a lot more as I went through that process, especially about small businesses in small towns because it's we're in a pretty rural area here in western Wisconsin. Um, and those small businesses are the lifeblood of these communities. Um, you know, you see, you know, big business everywhere trying to relocate to different places and economic development folks looking for big businesses. But the ones that are the job creators are the small businesses. And so I just continued to be passionate about that and thinking about what are ways I can help these existing small businesses or help the entrepreneurs try to grow their business. I did uh a lot of training and workshops through our local small business development center uh and other programs. There's a women's business uh center here in this area as well. Uh so whenever I could teach programs or do workshops or get in front of these business owners, I did. And I kind of just graduated from that into an opportunity to work with businesses uh across the state uh and then across the country as I got involved in an organization called the National Center for Economic Gardening. [laughter] >> Explain what economic gardening is. >> It has nothing to do with plants. [laughter] It has to do with the idea of helping small businesses grow from within. It's kind of an economic development concept. And uh the idea is that rather than trying to get large businesses to relocate hunting for businesses, we're growing them from within. Um and so economic development organizations identify small businesses in their region that have the opportunity to to grow further. You know, they've already had some success and there's still the potential. And then the economic gardening team is a team of uh specialists who come in to help them gain access to information that can help them grow their business. So, we're really focused on sales and marketing with digital marketing specialists and people with access to databases and some, you know, tips and tricks and capabilities to help them identify potential new markets and figure out how to get warm introductions to them or get in front of them. And I love the program. I was honored to have the opportunity to be a part of it. I went through training at the Edward Low Foundation that was running the program at the time. um and started work with small businesses in my state and then joined the national program. It's probably been about 10 years now. So, as a result, I ended up talking to hundreds of businesses every year and hearing all the things they were that were weighing on them. >> And what kind of work specifically were you doing for this organization? >> Um well, I was doing market research, predominately secondary market research, looking for new markets, new opportunities, which are the ones that are um easy to break into. uh meaning that there's a lot of uh a lot of opportunities. There's not just one or two businesses that dominate the whole market. Helping them understand how to navigate any complex processes to get into do business with the government or with larger organizations. How do you get approved as a vendor? That type of thing. Um which markets are growing the fastest where maybe that's worth paying attention to. Um and then I also served as a team lead. So I would have these uh discovery calls with the new businesses. I mean, they're not new businesses, just new to me. Um, you know, hear about what they're doing, the history of the business, how they've grown, what they're struggling with, and then it's my responsibility as team leader to determine the the skill sets of the team, which one are the right fit for the needs that they have. Uh, and that might be having someone take a look at their website to figure out how they can improve their online presence or um tips on improving their LinkedIn capabilities or how to get information about, you know, what's going on with their prospects so they can have uh better connections with them as they're working to, you know, turn them in from prospects into clients. So, if I understood correctly, it sounds like your job was kind of to scour the country looking for uh markets and specific businesses that have the most promise, the most opportunity to grow. Is that fair? >> Uh, yeah, abs. I mean, I'm not personally single-handedly doing that, but the program is working with any of the economic development organizations that uh, you know, recognize the value of this program. uh find the businesses in their community that are offering that have that that potential for growth and connect them with our specialists, you know, including team leads like me that would have these discovery calls to hear more about what's going on with them, what's keeping them up at night, you know, how have they grown in the past, what struggles are they having now as they're working to grow. We don't we haven't focused on finance or operations or anything like that, but really more on that sales and marketing side. Did you come to any conclusions about what um [snorts] what to look for in terms of a promising business? H how to figure out which ones are most likely to grow. >> Um that's a great question. I you know I think it it varies some uh I think the most important thing is to have an owner that has that growth mindset. >> The the ones who are willing to put sign their house against the loan. [laughter] >> Exactly right. If you believe in yourself and you believe that you don't know everything already and you're open to hearing ideas uh from other people and learning as you go, then you're going to continue to succeed because you're looking for those things. I have encountered businesses that, you know, maybe we've been doing this this way forever and we're never going to change. And I'm like, all right, well, I I can't help you then because you're not going to be open to hearing from anybody else about doing anything different. uh you know, including businesses that were like, I don't know why I need a website or not why I need to be online. All my business is done on the golf course. And I'm like, well, it might be changing over time because these younger kids who are going to become the purchasers don't want to golf and smoke cigars. They want to research online uh before they speak to a single person, and you're going to run into trouble if you're not showing up where they're looking for you. [clears throat] >> Do you actually say that to people? [laughter] >> Um yeah. Yeah, I have. I Yeah. And and do you ever change anybody's mind? >> Occasionally, sometimes they'll say, "Can you, you know, show me proof? What's the ROI?" And and there is plenty of proof out there uh that there is value in and showing up in multiple places and and the and just that the world is changing a bit in terms of how we do business and how people are looking to find uh new vendors or new opportunities. And I think we all need to be open to changing with the world around us. And if you're not, then you're going to be left behind. And so, you know, I want to continue to work with those businesses that have have created something and are open to the idea that they may have to pivot at some point to continue to be successful. >> At what point did you start focusing on uh creating peer group uh conversations? >> Well, that came out of the work I did with the economic gardening and I will say I spoke to so many businesses and I was hearing the same things from all of them and they don't know that everyone is saying the same thing. They think they're living this in isolation. And I would hear things like, um, I am behind from the minute I walk in the door. Or, this is great information. I have no time to deal with this. Um, you know, I am the marketing person. I am the salesperson. I am the founder. Uh, you know, I can't do all these things. This is too much. I was hearing it over and over and over again. And so, I was frustrated because I thought, we're putting together some, you know, quality information, some great ideas that could help you grow your business, and you just don't have the bandwidth for it. So, as a researcher, I did my homework and looked into, well, you know, how else can I help small businesses if this isn't working? Um, and that's where I discovered peer groups and started doing some research about that. Um, the state of Florida has a pretty impressive program that uses those economic gardening concepts. that's called Grow L. And they combine uh economic gardening and that research and and sales and marketing support with peer groups that help with that accountability and trying to figure out how to to delegate more or balance your time in a different way. Um and so I just kind of decided to go get trained as a peer group facilitator because I thought that might be the best way that I could help these small businesses. uh if they don't have time to take advantage of this information, how can I help them figure out how to have more time by by running a peer group, having them learn from each other, uh hold each other accountable, discuss their problems with each other, and kind of push each other to find new ways to to find those to find that time and figure out how their time is best spent from day to day instead of that constant putting out of fires or running on the hamster wheel or whatever, you know, way you want to describe it. How can you get to the point where you're able to to hop off of that every now and again and and look forward? I got certified during COVID as a um futures thinker through a program in Corsera that was run by the Institute for the Future and I would like small businesses to be thinking about how much the world is changing around us and make sure they are able to make those changes. You know, as things change, it's the small businesses that can pivot faster than big business, but only if they're paying attention. So, I've spoken with a lot of business owners through the years, too, and I I think I've come to a similar conclusion. I my sense [clears throat] is there there are very few things that really prepare you to run a small business. Kind of the experience you and your husband had, I think, >> right? >> You know, you can get an MBA and that's great. You learn a lot of important skills and you can work in other businesses, but it's not the same thing as sitting in the seat yourself and having to to make those tough decisions. many oftenimes about things that really don't get taught in school. So I've come to a similar conclusion that peer groups are, you know, really the best way to get a sense of what the possibilities are. There's nothing like talking to other people on similar journeys. >> And it it can be so eye opening because like you said, a lot of people assume I'm the only one who makes all these mistakes or it has all these problems and it turns out that's very rarely the case. But you you mentioned accountability a lot and I'm curious about that because I've also spoken to a lot of owners who've gotten frustrated in peer groups because they've found that [snorts] there are always a few people in the group who hear the same council over and over again nod their heads say they're going to do it and never do it. H how does accountability work uh in your groups? >> Well, I think that's always a a challenge. Um it's something that we've kind of evolved through. Um I am the training that I got initially uh was a great help to me and now recently I joined an organization that really focuses on um these you know improving peer groups and growing them um called LX Council and they really push the concept of accountability as one of the things to include in the peer group. Uh and and so we start little uh at every month when our when the peer group meets at the end of the meeting they each have to pick one small thing that the group will hold them accountable for. So it's not like major goals or putting together a strategic plan or anything like that. I mean for one guy it was clean off my desk. Um [laughter] because >> talk about the the mindset. I mean, if you can't clean off your desk, [laughter] >> Exactly. >> is somebody got to be really be able to hold you accountable for that, >> right? Uh, and it so or it might be like make sure that I'm not the only one that signs paychecks. Um, so things like that that are small that feel achievable over the course of a month. And so a week before each meeting, I'll say, "Hey, just a reminder, you know, these are the things you said you would have done before next month." And then they've got to report back. What did you do? Um, did you get the thing done? Um, no. I guess they could lie and say they did it, but I don't think that [laughter] that works in their favor. So, so we're not trying to do massive accountability. >> Do you have a walk of shame or anything for somebody who [laughter] doesn't fulfill >> Yeah. You might say, "Well, I cleaned half of the desk and I'll do [laughter] the other half next month." And that's fine, but it's just a starting point to say, "I know these people. You know, I I'm comfortable with them. I I want them to hold me accountable." You know, I also have an online um accountability group that focuses on that more regularly and more consistently because I think that's part of the challenge as well um is who's holding you accountable when you own the business. You're not going to turn to your employees and say make sure that I clean my desk off because no one's going to do that or you know whatever the thing is that you need to do. Um and related to that, you're also not necessarily going to turn to them and say, you know, what do you think I should do here? Should I ask for a bigger line of credit? What What are your thoughts? Your employees might be terrified if you're asking them that because they don't want to know that you're worried about making payroll or any of the things that might affect them. >> And your spouse might be terrified as [laughter] well if >> that's true. Well, and I've had people in the peer group say that. Um it's a safe place to talk about all these issues. My spouse doesn't always want to hear about this, especially if they don't have anything to do with small business. They don't u fully relate to it. As much as they support you, they don't get it. and being in a room of people that get it uh makes such a huge difference. Um and so we follow rules to make sure that the conversation is productive, that it doesn't turn into just a a grape session, that um you know, one of the rules is there's no advice giving. Uh people say, "Well, I just want someone to tell me what to do." Well, no you don't. You you started your own business because you were tired of people telling you what to do and you wanted to make your own decisions. But what you do want to hear is other people saying, "I have been in that situation. I get where you're coming from and here's what I did and here's what I liked or didn't like about my decision. Uh, and that's the value of a peer group. >> There are always a few people in the peer group though who who want to tell people what to do. >> How do you deal with that? >> Uh, well, we have a you know I we joke about having a buzzer or something. Can't do [laughter] that. But we don't actually have a buzzer, but they all have learned to kind of call each other out on that. That sounds like advice. And then sometimes someone will say, "Actually, just tell me what to do. I don't even want to have to be in charge of this decision, but ultimately they do, you know. So, we kind of make make light of it a little bit just to be a reminder to everyone that um we're here to have a conversation to you, you can ask clarifying questions. You can share your own experiences. Um but just be cautious about just saying, you know, you should do this or why haven't you tried this? Because that kind of puts people on the defense. >> Sure. uh and less likely to be open to new ideas. >> For somebody who's thinking about joining a peer group, can you give an example or two of the kinds of problems you think they're most effective at confronting? >> Sure. And and I will add this that I think the more diverse the peer group, the better. Um so we have, you know, the people in the group that I run are all similar perhaps in size, um or in the fact that the owner is still kind of the key operator, key decision maker. They don't have a a a a seauite of executives involved in the decision-making. That's the key element they have in common. But they are all different industries, different ages of the owners, different genders, different um perspectives. They're B2B, they're BTOC. Um and what they discover is that they all have the same issues. They all have the same problems. Um and so some of them might be smaller problems that can be resolved in a just a conversation. Uh, you know, I had an owner that her business grew rapidly and she still had a a smaller line of credit with the bank and she didn't even know that she could negotiate that or ask for something bigger. Um, and the group was like, you know, you should do this and this is how you can lay out the information and it made a huge difference to her to be able to make payroll uh with her larger organization. uh you know some of the discussions we make are you know I have an employee that is coming to work drunk what do I do about that how can I be helpful and accommodating but make sure the work gets done uh they're typically issues that are kind of those gray issues that don't have a clear right or wrong answer u that come up every day whether that's hiring people firing people um you know promoting people managing the growth of your business figuring out who has the right mindset to take on a leadership role so that you can continue to look for ways to grow the business. Um, you know, there's never- ending challenges that are outside of the businesses as well. I know, uh, last year, it must have been around April, May, uh, there were a lot of curse words involving, uh, tariffs, uh, going on because it it was an unknown and something completely out of the control of these businesses. So, any >> And that was affecting a number of people in your group. >> Absolutely. Yes. directly because they were uh manufacturing or at least purchasing >> they were purchasing products and the price the prices were changing daily. Uh but they you know have to sign a contract to do services and include products there and then hold to those prices while their own cost is changing constantly and uh it's a massive challenge to be sure and not a whole lot you can do as a small business owner. I mean, it's not like you have a lobbyist that's going to go complain to the government that this is an issue or something. >> Was that one of those situations where there was no clear obvious answer for anybody in the room? But it was good to know that you're not the only one with the problem. >> Yeah. I mean, what what we often talk about then is there are things we have no control over. Uh so what can we control? How can you control this situation? And and then we have talked about like what are some leading indicators that might give you a clue that you know is the economy due for a downturn? is your industry going to shift? Um, you know, an election year for some businesses was a real challenge because no one wanted to make a decision while we were waiting to see what would happen. Um, and so a lot of the bigger businesses were holding off on making purchase decisions and that filters down to these small businesses that weren't seeing as much business with for reasons that have literally nothing to do with them. So, you know, a lot of it comes down to what can I control, what can't I control, you know, where do I look for work, how do I present myself, and then how do I manage when I have downturns or upturns? Because both of them present challenges to a small business owner, and how do you navigate those challenges? >> So, how are you thinking about [clears throat] your own business um [snorts] handling these peer groups? Is that a business that you're trying to grow? >> It absolutely is. Um I right now I you know wear many hats to be you know I still do >> that term [laughter] >> I still work with the economic gardening and do market research. Um I still do a lot of teaching and training and workshops through the small business development center and then I run the peer groups but I've found that I'm particularly passionate about the peer groups and would love the opportunity to grow them. I think the number one competitor for peer groups is people that don't know that they exist and don't understand how they can really help their business. Um, and I would love to grow from the inerson groups that I'm doing now to have some virtual groups. Um, especially I'm interested in helping rural businesses who don't have a community of small business owners around them or have a community of small businesses, but they don't want to be vulnerable or share, you know, issues or concerns because those other small business owners are family members or neighbors or uh, you know, they're just a little too closely connected. There's even an extra weight on your shoulders in a rural area that if you're employing 10 or 15 people, that's a a big deal. Um, and so if you're worried about laying off or growing or how to find new people, all of those things are a little bit different in a rural area. So my that's my goal for this year is to put my a first virtual peer group together um with a focus on those rural communities and some of the small business owners that are trying to do something different or, you know, help their local community by growing a small business there. >> Have you thought about how you would market that? how you'd reach these more rural businesses. >> Um I am working with economic development directors in the some of the rural counties of Wisconsin um as a starting point because my understanding is a lot of it is going to be you know word of mouth and referrals is going to be a more successful way to go than you know lots of digital marketing. But I'm trying to put a lot of content out there too. So if someone is looking for me or finds me they will find that I have a you know I put a a video out once a month. I put a pod uh a blog post out once a month. I try to show up where I can show up. Um sharing my passion and my stories on, you know, how small businesses can help each other and come together and my role as the moderator of that. >> If somebody listening to this would like to reach out to you and learn more, what's the best place for them to go? >> Yeah, actually right now I have a a quiz that I put together that is like, is a peer group a good fit for you? And that's a good starting point. So, if you go to my website, secondstaggrowth.com/quiz, then that'll take you to a place where you can access a quiz and answer some questions that will give you some, you know, some things to think about on how a peer group could be helpful to you and whether it's a good fit for you right now. And then certainly, if you're curious, you can um sign up to have a one-on-one conversation with me. I've I've got uh one or two people that are interested in being in this founding uh virtual peer group and I I don't I'd like to start with, you know, four or five. So, if I could find a few more and we could get things going, that would be super. >> Last question. Um I've never [clears throat] experienced a time quite like this where there seems to be so much confusion as to how the economy is doing, how small businesses in general are doing. you can get answers that range from one end of the spectrum to the other. I'm just you talk to a lot of people um both business owners and people who work with business owners. Can you can you give us your sense of what's happening in the small business world these days? [gasps] >> The answer is it's different for every small business uh in every industry. You know, some of the businesses I uh work with are doing great and they're growing and some of them are struggling and it has a lot to do with um you know, the industry that they're in and um you know, our are tariffs affecting them and the businesses whether they manufacture themselves or they sell products that's having a huge impact on those businesses. Um others are less impacted. So, a lot of what we try to focus on is, you know, where do we have the control? Where don't we have the control? And how can we just continue to get the message out there that we should all be supporting small businesses? Even in our community, there's been a lot of uh recent posts on Facebook and LinkedIn that the small business community is struggling and, you know, we need your help. Uh that's one of the reasons why I'm kind of anti- Amazon. Um I won't buy anything from Amazon and I try to support local businesses as much I can. I want to be true to my um passion and always looking for those where are the local businesses, how do I support them, how do they support each other. >> What is your reason for that? Obviously, a lot of small businesses do sell on Amazon. >> Sure. Yeah. But I'm I I know some businesses, there's one that was in my peer group that sold on Amazon, but the millions of dollars that she had to spend just to show up on the lists against people who were competing against her original product, it was frustrating to see. So, um I think there are other ways. I mean, it's just a personal decision, I guess, for me that that's one way that I can be more in tune with if I'm looking for a gift or an idea for somebody, I don't want to just go on Amazon and send them something. It doesn't feel personal and it also doesn't feel like I'm connecting with small local businesses. So, um I I buy my books off of bookshop.org and I look for small local businesses to purchase from. Certainly, some of them go through Amazon, but I think Amazon makes them jump through so many hoops. uh that it makes it a real challenge for them. >> Interesting. Got it. [clears throat] Kelly Barry, my thanks. Um again, your website is secondstaggrowth.com. >> Mhm. >> And if you want to take [music] the quiz, it's secondstagegrowth.com/quiz. >> Yes. >> You're in Wisconsin. Thank you so much for taking the time, Kelly. >> Thank you so much. I'm pleased to be here with you. I [music] appreciate it. >> My pleasure.