Decision-making Tools for the Boardroom

good morning everyone and welcome to our webinar decision making tools for the boardroom this is the second webinar in our two-part series this spring so um thanks so much for being here and we look forward to getting started i am for those of you who don't know me i'm courtney burner i am the executive director of the university of wisconsin center for cooperatives so before we get started a little bit of housekeeping our webinar today will be about one hour and as you might have noticed your lines are muted and they will be muted for the duration of the webinar um the format for our presentation today will be presentation by my colleague kelly maynard followed by live question and answers um and you can submit your questions in the q a box so we have both a chat and a q a box you're welcome to chat with fellow attendees during the session but if you have a question for a presenter please put that in the q a box i know that some of you also submitted questions as part of the registration process and we'll do our best to get to some of those as well this webinar is being recorded and will be posted on the uwcc website within a couple days of this presentation all right so a little bit about the uw center for cooperatives we are based at uw-madison however we served the entire state of wisconsin we began these uh director forums these sort of government trainings peer-based government governance trainings back in 2015 and did them in person for many years and we switched to an online format when coronavirus emerged so the center itself was founded in 1962 and we do a mix of research outreach and education on a cooperative business model today um we are lucky to have the presenter kelly maynard she's a colleague of mine at the center she's a cooperative development specialist and she focuses her work on supporting food and agricultural enterprises in rural communities she enjoys working with diverse groups as they refine their cooperative business proposition and she really prioritizes facilitation and learning about group process and governance in the early stages of cooperative development so with that i will turn um the presentation over to kelly turn your video on kel hello everybody it's just a reminder that as things come up for you in the presentation please put them in the q a box and we will address as many as we can so real quick we're going to figure out get a sense of who is in the room so i am going to launch a poll um just what sector best describes your cooperative take um 30 seconds or so to answer this hopefully you see it on your screen one thing we really love about these directors forums is that we get a range of directors and other folks from co-ops all ownership types and sectors so we'll take a few more seconds all right i'm gonna end this first poll looks like we've got a lot of grocery folks in the room some manufacturing ag so this is very exciting now oh folks i'm going to relaunch the poll in case folks didn't answer the second question when your board makes a decision what processes and tools are usually used you can feel free to answer that again all right a few more seconds so we'll show again a lot of open discussion in voting some folks using consensus processes some other so thank you for sharing we're going to talk about all of those things and others in the webinar today let's see can you go to the next slide courtney all right so these are all words right that we're likely familiar with these are the the words most commonly used the tools most commonly used when our boards make decisions um today i'm going to offer some additional tools and talk about different situations that illustrate when and how you might best use them so again these words describe the the kind of tools or rules and processes that we most often apply next slide these um are some sentiments or complaints um that we really commonly hear and you maybe have said or felt yourself while making a decision with a group or sitting around the board table these really get at the way that we feel about how the processes and tools are used and these are the feelings that can get in the way right of the board making its best decisions or making the best use of all the knowledge and experience of the directors around the table and these feelings accumulated over time can can lead to a really counterproductive board culture so our goal today is to add some tools in that get us away from having some of these feelings and i would urge you to notice that a lot of these are not about the decision itself right they're really all about the inner interpersonal dynamics um and how we are all made to feel when working as a collective making a decision one thing that i do want to point out before we move forward with some of the tools is that all of these tools that we'll discuss to sit today assume that the directors have the information that they need in order to make a decision if you need some tools and ideas about things related to the information needed and meeting process to before decisions are being made i would definitely refer you to some of our webinars from last spring that are available for free on our website next slide so again these are those those words from the first slide but divided into two categories right we tend to lump the components of decision making together but today we're going to pull them apart and talk about process tools and then closure tools we hear the word consensus a lot and sometimes some people say um you know our board uses consensus to make decisions the word consensus literally means to think and feel together right and so it is is a process tool um as opposed to a closure tool and i would argue that most boards are using a consensus process right they're sharing their thoughts they're sharing their feelings and then using some sort of closure tool when it's time to make a decision the importance or nature of the decision can really impact both the process tools that we use and the closure tools that we use and i'll talk about that a little bit more as we go on next slide so for process the first thing i'd like to talk about um it's very simple um it's just reflect and then share and the idea is that instead of posing a question or asking for feedback on a proposal and immediately launching into an open kind of discussion that we take a moment of silence and let people collect their thoughts either in writing or just in their heads before anyone speaks we really all benefit from having a moment to pause and reflect and maybe write before responding to a question and there are those of us myself included who really need it in order to make our best contributions adding that short time for reflection helps put people on an even playing field and can lead to some more equal participation in a group especially if you have some of those dynamics where there's people who always speak and then people who don't as much think pair share is a similar idea it can be appropriate for a really complicated question or discussion and the idea here is that instead of moving directly from reflection to sharing with the full group that the participants maybe pair off and share some initial thoughts with one other person before reporting back to the full group now of course something like this is pretty hard right now when we're all meeting virtually but once we're meeting in person again i do encourage you to try think pair share now a lot of folks will say oh my gosh our board meetings are already so full how do we create time for this this moment of reflection can really be 30 seconds to a minute it does not need to be a long period of time and it would be part of the overall time allotted to the discussion or for an agenda item now once there's been that pause you can open up how do you open up the floor right as the board chair or facilitator of the meeting i think we're all probably guilty of defaulting to to what we call popcorn style right whoever whoever speaks first speaks first whoever speaks next speaks next and it kind of goes from there um and it can be really useful to think about how this is um maybe good for your group or can hinder the dynamic in your group so round robin is a way to just literally go around the table right everyone gets a little bit of time to say what they need to say and maybe you do it more than once you can also combine these things you can do round robin so that every so everyone gets to say something and then follow up with some popcorn if there's there's final comments the criteria matrix idea can be really helpful in a number of scenarios particularly if you're trying to weigh a few options against each other and there's kind of some pre-established criteria or priorities also if you are really trying to come to agreement about the importance of the decision next slide so these are just some examples of what a criteria matrix looks like now this would be this would not be how you would make the decision itself right this is how as individuals we would kind of gain some more data points about how options stack up against one another um a little bit later on i'll be talking about determining decision importance and these different the different criteria for decision importance could go in a matrix like this so you have a sense of again because not again not all decisions warrant this level of process so next slide so people have had a moment to reflect everyone has been able to share um some potentially some proposals have been compared at some point there's a little bit of a hurdle to get over between process and closure and these are some ideas that help with that um i would not recommend springing these on your group in the middle of an actual decision right but maybe you have a conversation about which of these ruler rules might be most um a best fit for your group kind of allowable in your root group and they could even be written down in board policy things like having a time limited extension that can just kind of be the call of the board chair or facilitator realizing you know what we we need to table this decision maybe we needed more information so it goes to a committee but things like uh someone calling for closure and a few others agreeing if that if you want that to be a procedure that the group can use to end discussion um everyone should be aware that that is something that they can do and maybe that is captured in board policy next slide so our closure tools once um [Music] different proposals have maybe been evaluated people have been able to share their thoughts people have agreed okay i think we're more or less at closure um this these are the ways you can work through that some ways you can work through that and again the importance of the decision really may influence which of these that you use the first thing might seem hardly like a tool at all um but i would argue that it is really important and that is just to make sure that the full proposal or decision statement is written down and visible to everyone if you are working through some you know a complicated proposal or multiple proposals have been discussed over the course of the conversation it can be easy to be confused right you often it's very common at the point of a vote for someone to say wait are we which budget number are we talking about which which provision are we talking about right so writing it down making it visible and this is easy to do in person or virtually um now before you head to that vote you can use something called gradients of agreed agreement um and we use this tool because our standard decision-making rules do not do a good job of reflecting the nuances of how people actually feel if you think back on to that that slide about the the feelings we often have around or can have around decisions i don't feel heard i know i'm in the minority so what does my opinion matter right most of us do not think in black and white terms or yes or no terms and when we move immediately from discussing an issue to taking an up and or down vote we force people to pick a side without acknowledging the complexity of their feelings around it so this tool allows us to get a handle on that um now vote right this is something that voting is something that boards are doing all the time usually multiple times a meeting i would urge you to consider that there are a lot of ways to go about a vote a lot of a lot of boards simple majority is the decision-making rule right um you might have an another agreed-upon percentage some you know two-thirds some sort of super majority often times in your bylaws and maybe in policies there'll be certain types of decisions that require more than just a majority vote make sure that those are specified a lot of groups that that talk about consensus reaching consensus or using consensus process right ultimately what their goal is to have unanimity but a lot of them have a unanimity minus one kind of vote rule right so that there's not just one person who can hold everything up so we're going to spend a little bit more time talking about how to use gradients of agreement so this is one example of a gradients of agreement scale it comes from a book called the facilitator's guide to participatory decision making by sam kaner there are lots of examples of gradients of agreement out there in the follow-up email to today there will be some other examples that aren't quite as many numbers quite as granular as one through eight but you'll see here that this reflects a greater uh range of the actual feelings we often have when we're placed in the role of making a decision right maybe you maybe it was your proposal and you wholeheartedly endorse it right maybe um you have a few reservations but you support it maybe you feel like there's a little more discussion needed or you know you don't ultimately you don't like it but you're not going to block it you know you'll support it if that's the decision the group makes all the way to no i have really really serious reservations about this proposal or i would i would really try to block this proposal right so this is way more than an up or down vote yes or no so what do you do with this range of feelings next slide so once the group has used its its process tools right and you're at this point of closure clearly state that proposal um right the thing that will ultimately be voted on and make sure it's visible do a quick check for understanding of that proposal you can maybe make some do some a little bit of word smithing as long as it doesn't change the meaning and then you get out your scorecard that's this this gradients scale in the same way that you want to make sure that the proposal is visible to everyone introducing this this gradient of agreement tool is probably not something you would do in the middle of a big decision you would want everyone to have seen the scorecard the gradients scale first probably have a copy of it you know maybe in their in their border binder or with their with their agenda and have it visible right so folks know you know the numbers mean these things this is how i express my number or my feeling so you have that score card that's visible with the gradients to find and then the board chair or facilitator can just ask the group where do you stand on this proposal right now this is not the vote right this is getting a sense of where people are before the vote occurs you capture where people are along the gradients and then everyone can take a moment to take stock right um one of you will in the follow-up email today to today with some resources there you know if it feels complicated to have scorecards and and numbers and remember all of these things you can really simplify this um there are people who use thumbs systems so thumbs up i'm i'm generally feeling okay with it thumbs in the middle i you know maybe i'm i'm so so maybe i need some questions answered still thumbs down i'm you know really um not online with this proposal you can use different colored little index cards green yellow and red right there's a lot of ways to do this that are not a scale of one to eight next slide so people have expressed where they feel on this on a scale the role certainly the role of the board chair um or the facilitator is to have a sense of well what level of support are you looking for or do you need right if your closure rule is a simple majority um this gradients of agreement vote will give you a sense of where the group stands if you need a super majority based on the type of the decision um again you'll have a sense of whether you're there or not um [Music] the importance of the decision the the duration of the impact of the decision um the cost of the decision right all of these can impact how much support you really feel like you want or need when it comes down to the vote next slide so here's an example right where after using the gradients of agreement it's clear this group is ready to go to a vote and the proposal is going to pass you know maybe that abstention you know the abstention can go one way or the other right but this this group is in is is in a good place in terms of being able to reach closure next slide ambiguous support right you've got a spread of people you know in this case if simple majority is your decision-making rule you have it right this board of seven you've got four who are in some amount of support and you've got three who are you know not feeling it as much right maybe and so as the board chair as a facilitator this is where you have some flexibility to decide what to do next right for the folks who said you know you know maybe i'm a five or a six you could ask for them from them you know is there some is do you need something in particular to feel better about this proposal is there something that might move you towards the left towards three or four right and there could be a set time window for reflection and sharing around that very specific question next slide again this is not a majority support right with a few outliers this is also not an uncommon scenario again in a board in a board where majority rules even if you needed a super majority right this proposal will pass but you may really want to hear from the directors who said who said they're feeling like they don't like it but they'll support it or they have serious disagreement you might really really want to hear from them what might move them to the left do they absolutely have to agree on the proposal maybe not right but this gives them a chance to share one more time next slide so what are some options to try i would argue that the um assessing the decision importance right what um what is the potential impact what is the potential cost what um is the level of buy-in you really need for it to something to be implemented effectively that could be done as a group exercise first that could be something that is done through using the criteria matrix right and people first reach agreement about how much agreement they need on the ultimate proposal that can feel like maybe a lot of process i would not suggest that that is something that has to be used every time but on a really big decision or a decision that feels particularly contentious or you are aware there may be some strong decision opinions making sure people are on the same page about how important and the nature of the importance can be a really important first step again there's this clear statement of a proposal this and you give a group a moment to reflect quietly you can do one round robin and then follow up with popcorn and that whole thing still took about 20 minutes a lot of times in our in our board agendas that's about as much time as we allot to decisions anyways and this just helped break it up and change the dynamics um in the room or over the zoom with practice using the gradients of agreement can just take a minute or two it does not need to be something that takes a really long amount of time and then based on the results of the gradients of agreement maybe you move to a vote one thing um that i would like to point out about the voting in both of these in any scenario is that there may be um situations really contentious decisions where you know that there are a lot of feelings in the room a lot of different ideas and feelings are have been expressed over the course of the over the discussion the process and even through the gradients of agreement it is completely okay and sometimes a very good idea to do a blind vote at the end the numbers will still be recorded but people feel sometimes more able to vote the way that they need to vote without ending up being attacked later on so i want to go um back up courtney sorry can you go back up to the beginning slides the second slide with the feelings oh nope slide number eight slide number eight apologies and show me the slide numbers on here sorry it's okay keep going keep going the one that shows the feelings about how we feel in the boardroom ah there that one great so these feelings right that we have we all have when we're when we're working in groups trying to make a decision these few loud people dominating the discussion this is a scenario right where this where the quiet reflection can be really helpful and utilizing round robin in our process hopefully this feeling of not being heard can be addressed through some of those tools and also through using something like the gradients of agreement where the your full the full extent of your feelings about the proposal can be shared this knowing you know you're in the minority so does your opinion even matter right that's really where the radiance of agreement comes into play um it allows everyone to see maybe gives you a little extra time to voice some very particular concerns [Music] and ultimately and have those recorded and you know it gives it it helps validate that the you're not just trying to be a stick in the mud or a difficult person holding up a decision this taking lots and lots of time right talking in circles this is where i would recommend that all of these tools be used with time limits right not in an open-ended fashion [Music] and that you experiment with using different combinations of them right there's the tools are a little bit like the science but the art is putting them together and implementing them and that comes you know just with the knowledge of your group um the preferences of your group and with time and practice so i would i would emphasize mixing and matching some of these tools and see how they fit together lastly using things like the criteria matrix right help put the proposals up against criteria that have nothing to do with not nothing to do with the people in the room but that aren't personal criteria right if people often feel attacked um or or you have the you have the folks that try to personalize the decisions the criteria matrix is a way to de-personalize and pull it away from any individual personalities and make it about the criteria that the co-op have established so i think my recommendations can we go back down two slides to process tools my recommendation would be to maybe spend a few minutes in a meeting talking about these tools and trying them out one by one i wouldn't necessarily revamp your whole board meeting all at once with some of these tools something like the gradients of agreement tool right might take a little bit more introduction in the resources today there'll be a short video that's actually from sam kaner explaining gradients of agreement you're welcome to share that with your boards go back down to the closure tools one more and i would have real clarity um with your board about which particular closure tools are relevant for which decisions if you're really moving if you really want to have more than a simple majority on most decisions that should be spelled out somewhere so that people are aware that that and and trying to use the processes that will get you there and with that i will open it up to questions hi everyone so if you could if you have questions um just put them in the q a section i'm going to stop sharing my screen for now so that kelly and i are not itty-bitty boxes on your screen um so while i wait for folks to enter some questions in the q a why don't i pitch one that came in through registration so um talked a little bit about some of the different tools we can use in meetings and for decision making how often should tools be you know reevaluated or how might someone bring up that conversation with their board about you know implementing potentially some new tools yeah i think you know if you're if you're part of an established co-op that's has a way of doing things it can feel hard to try to introduce something new it could be as simple as hey i went to i sat in on a webinar and they shared some ideas um here's here's the link to the slides if you you know you could share that with a board chair um i think trying one tool at a time and just seeing the impact can feel less threatening um if if there's a if there's a board that has kind of established way of doing things um that's that's kind of a starting point i would say you know try one one small change and um have everyone see you know how did that work um you can always do a quick check-in at the end of a board meeting when something new was tried did we like that was that worth it would we would we adjust it in some way how how about what do you think would mean yeah no i think those are all great recommendations and sometimes um you know it may not sometimes um so the last session we did for this uh webinar series was about board evaluation and i think if your board did a self-evaluation and some of those sentiments came up in the evaluation that kelly shared on an earlier slide where people are maybe feeling a little frustrated by the dynamics in meetings that's a great opportunity as a chair or as a member of the board to introduce the possibility of doing things a little differently all right so another question what are some good strategies to help boards sort of seek the truth and sort of just instead of just winning the debate um it's one of those sometimes we talk about listening for understanding rather than listening to respond so any um techniques or processes you might suggest kelly i think what kind of what that gets me to um is what you know what is the truth that we're that we're seeking and so i think that um something like a criteria matrix right can you know ultimately what you're trying to do is make a decision that helps the co-op and or membership in some way and what and what are the criteria that allow you to know that that is happening right and so again the criteria matrix doesn't actually make the decision but it kind of stacks up a proposal against some of these criteria that can be like these this is these are our true aims right um and having that in front of people helps kind of clarify without anyone speaking you know how a proposal stacks up i do i do think that [Music] something like that something like the gradients of agreement um helps helps people um i mean it personalizes it right but it helps get at the root of it can really help get at the root of what about a proposal um [Music] has some people not saying yes right and it's you don't have to it doesn't have to be an argument um an interpersonal argument it gives it gives them the space to have the full feelings that they have and then a facilitator can open the floor to address kind of the root of those of those feelings anything to add there no i think the only thing i would mention is that oftentimes there are underlying feelings whether it's fear or um you know something else that is driving someone to take a position and and sometimes taking a moment to try to unearth what the underlying emotion might be that's driving that position can be helpful and that's where i think the gradients of agreement tool can be really useful is that you can um understand you know maybe there's one little piece of the proposal that if someone you know can't get behind um and you never would have guessed why or what that is and so um just by giving people a different uh set of language and some different words to talk about where they fall on a proposal um you know everyone's truth everyone comes to decision was sort of a different truth um so that i think is part of the part of the dynamic as well so i would encourage folks to write their questions in the q a if you still have some um i have another one here so uh just asking for some clarification around the use of executive decision executive sessions um which might leave a decision to a subgroup and i'll i'll say a couple words about executive sessions and then um kelly welcome your additional comments on the topic so executive sessions for those who aren't familiar with them um are typically sessions where um some subset is invited to stay and others are asked to leave and so um it could be you know the general manager and the board maybe you have some guests from some members who are attending and um so you ask those members to leave and you go into executive session in that case you might be talking about an hr matter a legal matter you know property real estate so when i was on the willie street grocery club board when we were talking about real estate matters related to expansion that the the executive session group was the manager and the board there are other scenarios where an executive session is is truly referring to just the board members and um i think that executive sessions uh are a really great tool to implement regularly as a board so at the end of every meeting you go into executive session and um maybe you don't have anything to talk about maybe you just say oh that was a great meeting um you know anyone have anything to share and nope no you know and then you close it and that's the end um but what regular executive sessions do is they provide space and time for the board to talk about things that they might not feel comfortable talking about in front of the manager um to you know there's some might be some little frustration that if not actually discussed by the group sort of festers and creates some conflict that could be easily avoided by having a conversation as a group um so executive sessions are not intended to be like the place where you air all your grievances um but they they are and so by having them regularly um you don't they don't send up a red flag when the board decides to have one so i've worked with boards that never have executive sessions suddenly they have an issue maybe with the manager or something else but the board just wants to meet itself it's never done that before and so um the fact that it is asking for an executive session causes the manager to really be concerned like oh gosh what's going on um so the nice thing about doing them regularly is that it's just it's normalized um and a key piece for executive sessions then is you know if you are having them typically decisions are not made in executive session um and you know you might be making a decision related to real estate or legal matters um but if it's the board of course the board can decide things um if it wants to in executive session but often what i encourage groups to do boards to do is to have a sort of a closed loop back to the general manager or the ceo where that board share afterwards loops back to the ceo and gm and just sort of gives them a sense of what was discussed in the executive session um just so that they're you know there isn't cause for concern or worry um that you know you're trying to avoid that for the gm so i think they're a great tool um i think they're really they can be a nice place too for the board to reflect on what went well in the meeting what could have been better although you can do that on a regular agenda as well so kelly anything to add on executive sessions not specifically um but one thing related so a year ago when we first started doing these webinars virtually courtney presented on tools for an effective board and a portion of that that is web recording is available for free on our website um and a portion of that is about agenda setting and so i think that having always listing an executive session at the end of the agenda again whether you utilize it um or not our for a few minutes or for something more substantive it's really a great idea right to just have that have it always there have that consistency another thing that is addressed in that webinar that is certainly related to today is that um to think about um if you're the director the sorry the board chair or facilitator someone who's putting together the agenda to think through most of the time um in our agendas we just list topics and maybe we have time allocated to those topics in that webinar on our website we refer to a certain type of agenda that includes space for the process and so this forces you to think for a few minutes ahead of time this you know this particular agenda item i want to make sure we we give some time for quiet reflection or this is going to be a big complicated decision or you know we have two or three proposals to compare we're going to do a criteria matrix and then when people receive the agenda they are prepared not only for what the topically what's going to happen but what the processes are that will be used and it won't be a surprise to them once these are once these processes are introduced in general so i recommend if you're thinking about trying out some of these processes that they that somehow a note gets made about them on your agenda that that will be part of what happens thanks kelly so we have another question um any suggestions for a facilitator to encourage those who may be reserved to talk to share their view on an issue i think that this is where that that quiet reflection um moment you know can be really valuable right so that people have time to gather their thoughts um maybe write something down and even if and then if you follow it up with the round robin share right maybe they speak for a very short period of time right they maybe they read what was written on their paper um from their reflection but that you know that round robin after after thinking i think oftentimes gives the space it kind of it lowers the pressure of having to be fast with your words and fast with your thoughts um and i think sometimes it just feels creates a bit more openness for people to feel like even though they're quiet or you know hesitant that they have they have space i would say the gradients of agreement is another way that you can give you know everyone an opportunity to weigh in they may not be providing direct you know like they might not be providing comments on a specific issue but even allowing them the ability to provide a more nuanced reaction to a proposal rather than just an up-down vote where everyone's voting and you're sort of you're yay or nay it gets kind of lost in the crowd that that's another sort of subtle way to spread out participation across the board i think too another thing you know if you're a board chair and you have a couple people on your board who seem really hesitant to participate um it can't hurt as a board chair to just have a conversation with them offline you know so um you know as board chair it's often a good practice you know to occasionally have coffee or lunch or a zoom date now um with people on the board just to get a sense of how they're doing and um so it's an opportunity to say hey you know i've noticed that sometimes you're kind of quiet in the board room i just want to make sure you feel like your voice can be hurt you know there are things i can do as the chair to help you participate more because i really value your input so um there's another question that i'm not quite understanding any resources for if you want to if you want to type in the second half of your question i'm happy to have you to pitch it to kelly um while we're waiting on that another question here about i think this is a funny question how to know the best decision how to know the best decision to make when dealing with a conflict between two parties where either side is very stubborn so kelly any advice for um a situation maybe where people are digging in their heels or it just feels like they're um you know maybe not open to listening to another perspective yeah um i mean i think this is where pulling it pulling it away from the people as much as possible right so this is this is where i think there could be a really interesting use of think pair share so again you know unless you've got all the all the zoom skills this is you know a lot easier when you're in person but pairing people up in the boardroom who who maybe don't usually talk to each other who aren't always on the same side and in that that moment of of pairing just the two of them talking um they're they're you know there's not a vote happening they're not speaking to the whole group right it can be just an opportunity for you know okay let me just hear you and i'll i'll say my piece and then then we'll get to the bigger group right so it takes the the two the two sides away from from the big group so that can be a reason to use the think pair share i think um any any sort of any way that you can use to put the context or impact of the decision in the context of the co-op as opposed to the people who feel one way or the other about the decision so this goes back to using maybe something like a criteria matrix you know so that you know which of these ideas um it's going to take you know how much time are these ideas going to take how much are they going to cost in relation to each other how much do they align with um our you know priorities for the year how much do they align with our mission statement right and so um those those things kind of um they help to personalize um and those are things you could get people to rank those things anonymously too right um i think that the blind voting and and getting people to to kind of share things anonymously it's maybe an underutilized take maybe takes a little bit more time and effort but i really think it can help break up that dynamic where you just have loud voices you know from different sides um kind of facing off with each other i think too not to go back to gradients of agreement like every time there was a question but um it is a really powerful tool i think to sometimes we think people are stubborn because we've created a black and white environment where they either have to 100 you know vote yes for something or vote no for something and that gradients of agreement and when used skillfully and um you know having follow-up questions that sort of you know what could help you you know i see that you are have some concerns about this proposal um as opposed to trying to convince the person who is not supportive of the proposal to see it your way really trying to understand what they might need in order to get on board with a proposal and so sometimes things that can appear to be stubbornness part of the part of the problem is the dynamic that we've set up of you know either forward or against it um and when we change that paradigm so that we're trying to understand maybe what specific pieces of a proposal might make someone uncomfortable that also eliminates that like for against your stubborn why can't you know um in a way that can be really helpful all right another question so how does the facilitator sort of the flip side of one of the previous questions how does a facilitator deal with members who speak too much sometimes they provide really pertinent information and reflections but sometimes those members are not helpful i mean this is where um round robin a lot of use around robin can be really helpful um with a lot really you know allotted time periods for um sharing the just you know discussion or what our other process on on a topic um again i i think that some people um some people are verbal thinkers right so they maybe their thoughts come to them quickly but they're like processing out loud and part so part of the the air time that they're taking up is their external processing i'm not no judgment right we all do we all think differently right some of our thinking is quiet some of it's out loud and so i think that so something like a quiet moment of reflection i think can force people to to do that quietly and to and to organize their thoughts um before and maybe condense them before sharing out loud um but they'll run that round robin you know it only gives them a certain amount of time right so it's like they have to get their thoughts organized and then everyone goes around um and it's not to say you couldn't come around again right but it's about it's about kind of keeping the conversation moving around the circle around the table or around the zoom squares um without that that voice dominating i think another kelly referred to a previous webinar where we talked about meeting agendas and outcomes on meeting agendas i think sometimes it can feel if you're a chair or a facilitator like you're being rude by you know cutting someone off um and what i've discovered is that often there are others in the room that appreciate when um the chair or the facilitator really takes that role seriously um and and your role as a facilitator is to make sure all voices are heard you're facilitating the decision-making process and so two things one um i encourage you as a chair facilitator to potentially step in and say um you know that's great like this is helpful for us processing um you know the outcome of this agenda item is really this um you know so like let's make sure we're focusing our conversation on achieving that outcome so the agenda then becomes can potentially become a tool as well for the facilitator to um you know refocus the conversation if there's someone who seems to pull it away um another thing that i've done is and i don't you know it's sort of subtle and sort of not is you know it seems like a couple people are dominating the conversation i'll say you know i'd really love to hear from someone who hasn't shared any thoughts yet and hopefully that's kind of a signal that like let's let's let some other voices be heard here so a couple more questions i also like using share pair to help those folks get talking done a little bit too yep that's a great um thank you annie um you know sometimes for those of us who are verbal processors that think pair share can help us we get the processing done during the um the pairing and um then when we're with the full group um the comments can be a little bit more focused um another any resources for how a board can learn about the power and importance of interpersonal relationships kel and we've got about another minute so quick answer and then a little closer i don't know the short and courtney and i took a 10-day course on facilitation where we learned about a lot of these strategies i mean facilitate the it's really an art there are there are you know tools you can use a little bit like a recipe but um i think yeah i mean i don't know i mean there's a link going to be a link to this this manual in the follow-up email this is a lot of the stuff we've talked about today comes from here you know yeah it's like a little bit thick um but it's very practical um for all the relationships and groups you work with in your life not just your co-op board um that's a that's a resource you know maybe we could bring it to the gym point out a couple things to the to the board that might be worth trying yeah [Music] um that's my one comment there yeah um it's the kind of kind of work that um can be useful to do in a board retreat or something too i think um some of that interpersonal work and helping people understand the importance of communication i've done some trainings for boards on communication and culture that um at least start those conversations so we are at times i'm going to share my screen here again for the final let's see if i'll do this great so um thank you so much kelly thank you so much everyone who joined us for your questions and for participating just quickly this is our co-op development team here at the center so if you have questions about cooperative governance about how to start a new co-op um anything related to co-ops please don't hesitate to reach out to one of us and then lastly just thank you again um it's a pleasure to be here with you today and we look forward hopefully um to being in person with you again soon so wishing you all a wonderful rest of your day take good care