Did It Have to Get Crazy at Basecamp?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week we talk about Jason freed the embattled CEO of the Chicago based software company base camp it just so happens freed along with every participant in this episode has a connection to Bo Burlingham book small Giants which spawn both a business community and an annual list of companies that care more about being great than being big Bas Camp was one of those companies and at the small giant Summit in 2019 freed gave a keynote based largely on a book he co-authored called it doesn't have to be crazy at work all of which made it somewhat disorienting last week when things did indeed get crazy at base camp it started when freed published a blog post decreeing there would be no further discussion of political issues at the company but it soon became clear that this was not just about co-workers arguing Trump versus Biden by Friday a third of the company's 57 employees had resigned we didn't know about Friday's resignations when we taped the episode on Thursday but we had plenty to chew on as we went searching for lessons even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will if nothing else let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which highlights the most important news of the day for business owners and which you can subscribe to at 21h hats.com where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews join joining me this week are regulars Jay goz whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home William Vander blumen who is CEO of Vander blumen Search Group a recruiting firm based in Houston that works with churches and other faith-based organizations and Dana White who is CEO of paraly Boyd a chain of hair salons based in Detroit the episode is titled did it have to get crazy at base camp [Music] welcome Jay William and Dana um I want to do something a little bit different this week which is talk about a company in the news um and not really for a good reason let me recap quickly for listeners who might for some reason not have been reading their morning reports this week Bas Camp is a relatively small company especially for a tech business um but one with a a big reputation one of its co-founders Jason freed writes a column for Inc magazine they're well known for being kind of anti-s Silicon Valley anti- venture capital anti-g growth for growth sake um and and they're known for a lot of progressive management policies for example they've been working remotely for you know I think you know more than a decade uh and several years ago when I worked at Forbes I was largely responsible for putting base camp on our annual list of Forbes small Giants companies uh that are focused uh more on being great than on being big um and then this week one of the co-founders Jason freed kind of dropped a bomb in a in a blog post he announced uh a number of things I'll list them quickly no more societal and political discussions at Bas Camp no more paternalistic benefits such as fitness program wellness program no more committees no more lingering or dwelling on past decisions no more 360 reviews no forgetting what we do here we make project management team community communication and email software we are not a social impact company since that bomb dropped uh there's been a lot of a lot written a lot of discussion uh couple of things have come out uh since then one was this what seems to have triggered this is the existence of a file in the company's own base camp communication uh system a file in which employees were keeping a list of funny quotee unquote funny names of some of their customers and these names were non eurocentric names ethnic names that none of them have been disclosed but I think you get the idea um so that's one thing that's come out since then and the other thing is base camp in light of all this has told employees that they can get a severance package of as much as six months if they now want to leave the company no questions asked I would also point out that there have been a number of business owners uh who've been quoted in the press and these stories who've looked at this and congratulated base camp on the courage they've shown for doing uh and saying what had to be done and said I'm curious what you guys think H H how about you William how do you look at this after reading the full letter that Jason sent out to his company I thought it was courageous leadership and I was I don't know the circumstance of what's going on over there letters like this and decisions like this if you're in my world they don't happen without a whole lot of buildup and a whole lot of you know uh things getting a little out of control or be or or I guess not out of control you start off five degrees off North and then it's 10 degrees off North and then it's just 11 or 12 and you look up and you're like wow now we have committees now we're worried about politics now we're you know taking up causes and what I didn't sign up to run a farmers market we need to get back to the basics and unfortunately if the senior leader doesn't do that it doesn't happen and it's just great to see in my mind and I might be wrong but I think it's great to see a Founder willing to make the call that really only the founder can make or or the CEO maybe if you're not the founder and and just say hey this is what we're doing on a much much much much smaller scale we dealt with this just two weeks ago in the when are we going to come back to work question of of Co and I listen to all the people and I listen to their ideas and they're good smart people and I love them and I'm glad we work together and at the end of the day I just really disagreed with him and I said hey guys I don't do this often but you know I have listened to your opinions I have heard what you have to say I think you're smart I'm so glad you think you can give those opinions and now I'm making my decision and you you you need to just trust me on me trust me on it and live with it and when I saw what Jason did which was much more bold and probably will cost him a lot of employees I thought that's a guy who has not just gone into the coast mode he's still making the hard decisions I have a client who uh runs a a very large church and um he's he's a wonderful guy he's very well known nationally and I was with him not too long ago and and he said you know I think I preach for free and I said what do you mean they don't pay me to preach I like preaching I do that it's great I guess I'm pretty good at it it seems to be working um but I think here's where I think I earn my salary I said I think I earn every penny of my salary making about two or three decisions a year that no one else wants to make and that's what I was reminded of when I read this thing from Jason so I'm I'm just applauding him I want to write him I'm a very early client of his uh 13 years ago when I couldn't afford anything I used highrise as a Band-Aid CRM so we've been very familiar with them and followed them for a long long time so this is exactly why I wanted to talk about this what's so interesting about this situation is that it it it seems to come out of a lot of impulses that many business owners would would share and be able to relate to uh I mean who wants employees fighting over politics around the water cooler or through email or in b Camp um but but is that what this is really about and are there other ramifications Dana what do you think first of all go back and listen to the I'm stress episode that applies to race that applies to any other challenges you're having in your business it came across to me you know what it's getting a little hot in the kitchen things are bubbling up we're opening ourselves up to liability there's a lot of stuff going on so let me just cut it let me just okay no more this no more that no more this no more that as opposed to remembering heavy is the crown get to work I think it was a hard decision to make yep okay but there's a lot of business decisions that we make in leadership that are hard decisions to make but I think his is in reaction to what he either is not going to do or what he's not capable of doing instead of getting in the work getting in the weeds and affecting change within his culture if you're seeing for example you've got a C culture where your customer service reps are are making fun of names that don't sound like Amy Brad Paul and John well then that's something you need to change that's something you need to work on and saying well no we're not doing a b c and d taking away you know paternalistic programs don't take them away just reward people differently who don't want to participate in them right so if I don't want to participate in in the workout discount okay so then here's some other things you might want to do but to me get in get into it don't just cut it off because of and and we really don't know why what are the details and I think it's very interesting that he's going to make these broad sweeps and not really go into why he's doing it but to say you know we're just not going to talk about politics and said why AR why aren't we talking about politics like this take a stand one of the Committees that he eliminated Dana uh was a committee on diversity equity and inclusion that uh employees had created in response to the revelation of of the existence of that file making fun of customer names um You referred to the the conversation that we had back um a year ago in the joy George Floyd aftermath one of the things you did for us there was to kind of open our eyes to how this would look to a an employee of color showing up at work in the morning and thinking about you know the values of the business where they worked what would you imagine an employee uh at base camp thinking reading this if I was an employee there i' like oh he just isn't going to try anymore and in this day and age corporate culture needs to understand we're you're no longer in the place where you can't deal with it anymore you're either going to deal with it or not what did I say and I'm stressed you're either over here you over there but I'm saying he's coping out really that's what you're going to do as a leader you're just gonna heavy is the crown so you're just gonna take it off no bo that no I'm just that's how I feel like he just kind of just said well I'm not gonna deal with this anymore because I'm either ill equipped or I don't feel like it Jay what do you think I'm just taking a back I William I have to ask you did you read his original email or Blog the entire thing word for did you actually see the original document Jay what helps me is every morning to read the 21 hats email that I get it's like food for my brain right and in there there was a really helpful link to his original uh uh document and and that's what I read so you know assuming that's right that's what I read let me jump in here you should know the background um Jason sent this blog post out uh through a s a base camp product called Hey a new form of email it's it looks like an email it behaves like a blog post uh whatever uh I quoted uh from the original version that he sent out that way but they archived it on a website and they edited that subsequently so if you clicked the link in the morning report you went to the archived version which was slightly different so for example it it instead of saying um no more societal or political discussion at Bas Camp it's now said no more societal or political discussion on Bas Camp's main communication platform gotcha that's very very very different yes it is he's saying don't use our software that is meant to take care of business to have these discussions please have it somewhere else that is a very different message than what this original thing is and and I have to I have to quote from this before I give you my opinion this is the part that just as Huxley offers in the doors of perception we live together we act on and react to one another but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves the martyrs go hand inand into the arena they are crucified alone embraced the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self transendence in Vain by its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and and enjoy in solitude and his comment to that is heavy yes but insightful absolutely a relevant reminder we make individual choices what the hell does that mean what a what a uplifting inspiring thing about teamwork and working together for I I'm my I was cringing through this entire thing and I I don't know the guy I've read his stuff I've always been proud that he's a chicagoan and he runs this wonderful company that that was a small small Giant and I don't know how you can read this without saying no not really small Giants giant I don't know how you could I'm I'm shocked that anyone can read this and not think oh my God have you lost your he's basically saying no social responsibility like like he said in here um it's saps her energy and redirects our dialogue towards towards Dark Places you mean like watching TV every night in Chicago seeing another kid's been shot you mean those kind of dark places we should avoid those conversations or or the the it's my company tie rate I'm it's my company I'm going to do whatever I want what a what how disheartening for his employees that have put their heart and so to this teamwork company if you read any of the responses from the employees this isn't my opinion what what matters that make I don't work for him his employees some of them are completely heartbroken that this wonderful small Giants company of support and love and working together for a common goal is now it's my company I'm gonna do whatever I want if you don't like it I'll pay a six months you can leave I I'm I'm taken back and I don't know the guy I don't think he meant that to be the message I think the message was hey this is really getting hot at work what I would call uh William I have to tell you the fact you call a courageous leadership I I wish this was my mouth's been hanging open I courageous leadership to me is calling the five people into the office that were ripping on each other and put them in the room and go guys do you think this is productive I mean the bravado of being behind your keypad I understand is a problem and I know we've all been locked in our houses but can you see where this is really getting disruptive to trying to take care of business and calming people down and saying to them if you really have the need to rip on each other like this please don't do it on our software that's to me is leadership not throwing out the baby with the bath water and having a temper tantrum saying I don't want to be involved with any of this stuff and and I I'm hoping he's had a bad day I'm hoping that he like me and like many others are worn out from the last year and his nerves are shot but I don't know I don't know what to think I the whole thing's really disheartening and sad to me but the last thing on earth I would call this would be courageous leadership I would call it losing your that's what I would call it that's all I got to say so do you agree or disagree with me I'm not sure let me get back to you let me send you a note No I I yeah I I and like I said to be fair to you I don't know that you read the whole thing from the beginning to end and have the original copy but but there are so many lines in here that that are just you know it's none of our business what you do outside of work okay to a degree that's true but I don't necessarily want someone working here that's in the Klux Clan sorry that's just an individual choice of mine um um we make individual choices a return to personal resp what does that all mean a return to personal responsibility what does that all mean I I I we should just pretend like it's 1960 and the fact that I mean I think we we know where you stand Jay let's William do you have a response to that no I want to hear what you think Lauren I'm really saddened by this I think this is a train wreck the notion of doing something taking an action that forces you to tell your employees look if you don't want to be here uh not only is it okay for you to leave but we'll pay you to leave that that's after creating a situation that would make them want to leave it's not like everything status quo and you're paying them to leave you've you've communicated something to them that would make them no longer want to work for you and you go fine instead of hearing them out here's six month salary you can go now let me say this I think the part that you're responding to William is a part that a a lot of people share your opinion opion on uh and I referred to this earlier if if this were just a discussion of do we really want to have political conversation taking up time at the office um you know a lot of people are going to say no and in fact you know we've talked we we don't we don't want to have political conversation on this podcast but once he drops the word societal in there I think that changes it dramatically and and you know and then there's the way he did it and and I totally agree with that that I understand his frustration of can we stop with this we got to take I totally understand that I just don't think he communicated it properly and I I think he could have had some conversations with the people that were out of control there if that's what the case is though I don't even know if that's the case anymore I I I think this was just this isn't management this isn't leadership this is a temper tantrum I I i' I'd love to know more about the situation because I'd say you know 20 everybody can fly off the handle and blow a fuse right absolutely and and and if ever you're going to fly off the handle and blow a fuse arguably the end of 2020 and the beginning of 21 would be the time but man watching his work for 21 straight years and not acting alone you know the part that I the part that I liked in this was uh if you're asking who made these decisions David and I did so a not acting alone loone and B you know if you want to complain about it complain to me because I am going to own this decision it's not too different from um you know it's it's sad to say but after George Floyd was murdered and we had that really great podcast where Dana was so awesome um I I shared a little bit of you know I took a pretty strong stand and sent out a letter about where where I am which means where our company is on this it's ridiculous it's murder before it was convicted murder and you know we took a little bit of a beating from some people over that you called it a lynching on the podcast I did and I'd call it that again and I took a little bit of a beating for that and that that is the kind of leadership where it's like no if I really believe in this and I own the company and the company has gotten off course from what I believe it should be I don't need a committee to tell me whether it gets back on course there are times not many but back to my friend two or three times a year I think I get paid all of my salary to make decisions no one else wants to make it's not all the time all the time would be a fascist micromanaging insensitive way of leading but but there are times I'm discovering when if I don't make the hard call things will continue to spiral in a direction that'll take us way off Mission and so I you know I I would love to know more about the details of what cuz I got a hard time believing Jason just went Dr Jacko Mr Hyde on us I I don't I agree I've been wondering myself I I don't know the guy I'm hoping he just had a really bad day but from what it seems like they keep backing it up with more his partner went on there and at the end of his his whole thing he said well this too shall pass really let me read the part of the uh original email that William's referring to uh towards the end Jason wrote who's responsible for these changes David and I are who made the changes David and I did these are our calls and the outcomes and impacts land at our doorstep input came from many sources disagreements were heard deliberations were had in the end we feel like this is the long-term healthy way forward for base camp as a whole the company and our products I don't know I I think there different ways to read this William I think you're reading it one way I think others might read it as hey it's it's my comp this is what I'm going to do if you don't like it that's your problem he absolutely has the right to do that yeah he does but I mean I'm listening to it and I'm and I'm I'm listening to you all and I'm remembering what I read and I'm like yeah because you don't know what to do so that's why you've done what you've done and it's hard but it's not as hard as fixing what's in it I mean if if you get a cut on your arm you don't cut off your arm it's and people oh my God he was so courageous he cut his arm off no he didn't have to but it's stitching himself up may have been harder how about the they're making fun of people's names and and they're actually documenting it and keeping a file how about instead of having a committee back to your point William making sure you stay on track going yeah this isn't a good idea this was uh this was a bad idea we need to stop doing that we make sure you get rid of that list next how about that we don't need really committees to figure that out how it's just what Dana just said how about instead of just cut your arm off so we have to have this conversation more I I really think it's thrown out the baby with the bath order like there's absolute validity to to trying to keep a civil place and get the work done and everything but to go ahead and make an edict that there will be no more you're right and Lauren you're right on the money the second you put the word societal in there um you have to read the responses from from the employees to really get this whole thing and and one of them just said yeah when you're the white boy going home it's it's much easier when you're the black guy you got to worry about whether you're going to get killed by the police on the way home I mean I we're in difficult times wait wait let's and let's add this to it Jay when you go home and you go to work and you come to work we really don't want to deal with your political issue see that's the issue I have how are you defining political I get it the having the the the Trump Pence or you know Trump Biden conversation at work especially on the company platform as inappropriate but you'd be surprised at how many people because they're uncomfortable will classify a human rights issue as a political issue and it sounds like that's what he's doing but we don't know that's the point to your point Dana if he would have told us the story give us a little Narrative of something was now it looks like he's just mad because people are mad they got rid of the funny name list or something but there's a reason why he didn't there's a reason why he didn't say anything and I said that before well I think the reason he didn't is because nobody wants to talk about a situation like somebody keeping a list of funny customer names there's no positive side to that there is yes there is it depends on how you stand up I've said it before this is what we've done own what we've done and this is what we're going to do in this company to fix it because this is not who we are that's not what he's doing he's saying you know I don't agree with it but you know what I really don't want to make anybody upset you know hey if you want to make fun of names here just don't do it on our platform and and we're going to take out anything that we think that may have encouraged you to do it but he's still not addressing it I want to ask William a question you said before that you thought it was a courageous decision but one that would cost him a lot of employees these were people who are likely to be highly sought after and they're being offered six months pay to go find a job somewhere else how do you square those two things uh you know the the search from Russell Reynolds you know I thought for the longest time it was Mr Russell and Mr Reynolds and 200 years ago they formed a partnership and well actually Russ is a guy Russ Reynolds he's a wonderful guy he is uh he's been around a while but he's become a good friend and the Friendship started when his church called asking us to find a pastor for them which I thought was totally hilarious we met in Russ Reynolds office and they're hiring us and I'm like don't you have somebody at your company that can do this for you why are you paying me um but anyway long story short I I looked at him I said look you've been around a long time I'm new at this what do you wish you had known when you were new at this and his answer was real quick he said that every single search is unique I said what do you mean he said well every client's unique and then every search within every client is totally unique so I think it would be really negligent for me to speculate on what is happening with Jason and his company without knowing more I don't know why you do a blog post for a memo that's supposed to go to employees it wasn't a press release that's an entirely different thing this to me is somehow we got part of the internal communication that because of the way their setup runs external as well now maybe I'm reading it wrong a blog post would tick me off I mean then then I do need to know what do you mean when you say societal impact because I mean hey we're living in a really hypercharged era where you you do need to have some stand on what you believe about uh basic human rights and inequality like that but but this wasn't a press release this how I read it which may be incorrect was this went to employees how do I square up the six months pay I think he knows he's going to lose people so if if now maybe this is so speculative I hate to even say it but if I'm sitting here saying I'm going to lose half my people I might as well let the world know that if you get at odds with me I'm going to pay you for six months while you look for something new I see it as a recruiting tool not at all that no no no no it's it's like I'm gonna stab you but I'll smile at you while I'm doing it it's like I'll get you a cup of coffee then too like think he's you think he's hurting them by offering him 6 months he's actually trying to be decent to people that have been there for years I don't blame him for but he's like most people he's well meaning you mean well but you sound like an idiot you have to read about his employ one of his employees went on and said with his name give him credit like a major job he said I've worked at this company for years and I've always felt good about our mission and who we work with and now I'm just very sad I mean it's heartbreaking to watch what he what is that was his was that his intent to make people that work for him feel completely disillusioned as to who they work for and what they're about I I'm giv I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt I read this years ago the speech you make in Anger will be the greatest speech you ever regret never forgot that I I wish he would have just read this over maybe waited till the next day maybe edited some words around I get the point of it there is a legitimate point in this but the tone of it and this is not just just me speaking this is a ton of people that went on there that were were were commenting the tone of this is horrible horrible let me just say one thing in response to what William said I think it's important to understand that uh this was intended to be like a press release it's it's not an internal email that was somehow leaked in fact in in what Jason initially wrote he had a paragraph that read recently we've made internal company changes which taken in total collectively feel like a full version change it deserves an announcement so he was fully thinking this was a a public document okay no he's proud of this he he thinks that this is a noble thing he thinks this is a noble thing you guys I don't know I live in a different world when edicts and statements are made they know exactly what they're doing they he didn't stutter he repeated himself a couple of times he knew exactly what he was doing and it never and although it's uncomfortable he's attracting exactly who he wants to come work at his company in his culture don't get it twisted and the people who believe differently are hurt because they thought they were working for somebody else once you show me who you are I believe you people that are if they're listening and they're people that are working for him listening or if he's listening you have shown them who you are and we all believe you period Dana you you could be right I hope you're wrong I'm hoping that covid played into this I'm hoping the fact that people haven't been in the office for a year and a half I'm hoping that that he stressed out I'm hoping you're wrong but maybe you're them I don't know J how many conversations have we had conversations on this very same subject matter and I've been wrong no you haven't been and half of and I have to tell you half of what I'm saying is because I've learned from you the insights of what's going on for the last year I I give you full credit for that I was cringing I'm I'm sad for him I'm sad for his company uh I'm sad for his employees that this is a guy that's been writing for Inc magazine for years he writes lovely articles and he's Chicago guy it was a lovely story it was a small giant story I'm not surprised at all let me ask this question I you know my point in doing this and I was nervous about this was never to pile on my point in having this conversation with you guys was to say look there there legitimate obvious concerns uh that are part of this discussion there's an Impulse here that you can imagine any business owner anywhere feeling at some point and wondering how to to deal with it um with that in mind William do you see this as a a problem that's that's been created that needs to be dressed do you see them as I do as a company that that that's got to that's going to need to take some steps to try to fix this situation and and I'm I'm curious whether you think it's fixable I all I know is I wish I knew more okay I I I can't humans are possible of doing some really stupid things I can attest to it firsthand this is the voice of experience right but I can't for the life of me figure out how guy who for 21 years has talked about building a place for a good thing and not just for a profit cuz he could I mean Lauren if you've studied you've studied his business probably all of us on the call know he could have rolled this thing up and sold it many times over over the years and he's stuck to his gun so absolutely why all of a sudden did he become a completely different person I think there's more here he's certainly not trying to create clickbait I think there's more going on at that company than we know I'm with you I agree I think there I think that but I also think some things happened he and his people although organic and small Giants and well-meaning were ill equipped to choose either over here or over there they did what they knew period that's it he didn't know what to do and so this is what he did sorry to interrupt one of my favorite quotes in I guess the original statement is it didn't sound like there four or five people Ming off and so I need to deal with them Jay said get those four or five people in the office he said in the statement you shouldn't have to wonder if staying out of it means you're complicit or stepping into it means you're a Target like there sounds like there's a whole lot more going on in the workplace than and and if that is what's going on somebody's got to be the grownup and call it and say enough we're not doing this anymore let's get back to work agre no I agree but to an extent I think they need to say enough this is who we are and move on and do the work but that's not what he's saying he's saying look he's saying like Donald Trump said when he first got elected there's good people on both sides no no there is no well if I'm not in it I'm wrong well if I get in it I'm wrong no this is what it is here at base camp and if you don't like it here's six months paid for you to go being being you know being in the middle if you don't stand for something that's it he's not standing for anything you can't take the piece out of this that they haven't been in the office in a year and a half and everyone's behind their computers all day long Jay they don't have an office okay well then okay Jason's uh co-founder referred to that he said you know of course we we've been working remotely for for years and years but it doesn't help that we haven't even seen each other in a year and a half and haven't you know reestablished that human connection yeah I there's some of that all the more reason for to get up and do what he has to do I'm just over like the a you're hearing in my voice right now is I'm just really over everybody giving people who make the decisions they really aren't qualified to make ex you know well maybe it was this well maybe it was that and we don't do that for everybody I don't care I I don't care he had a choice he made it he has showed us who he is believe him whether he's at home in a closet whether he's on an island working by himself whether he hasn't seen his co-workers in two or three years it doesn't matter he showed you who are who he is well I I think this is this is a fascinating conversation because I respect all three of you and your business Acumen I think it's probably the first podcast where we've actually pretty strongly disagree with each other which I think is really awesome so I I we can do that again everybody agree with each other that's no fun I think this debate is something that I'm hoping listeners will be able to get um some sense of something out of from both sides of the issue Jay I'm curious uh how you would respond to the question I asked William which is um do you think this situation is fixable I absolutely think that he could go out and say listen I sent out that that blog post it's been extremely frustrating people are at each other we're not getting the job done I recognized that the tone of my letter was not what I was intending I I I'm trying to say we need to take care of business first and I'm rather horrified as to some of the responses I didn't recognize that the tone that I set out is hey it's my company I'm going to do whatever I want and we don't need to be socially responsible anymore all we have to do is make software and that is absolutely the me I don't know how you can take any message from that that other than that like we're just here to do software whatever goes on in the rest of world not my concern and whatever you do after work not my concern I mean I think he could absolutely and people I think are understanding that we're going through covid there's been a lot of stress I'm telling you I don't know if it's like this everywhere in the country watching television in Chicago every week for the last three weeks there's another kid getting shot by the police it's it's it's disheartening it's disturbing it's it's frustrating and in the middle of all of this he sends an email all blast out telling everybody like hey we're just here to make software like uh and it's my company I I can't I can't think of worse timing I can't think of a worse tone I've lost track Jay are you arguing that it is fixable or that it's not fixable absolutely fixable absolutely fixable but with that being said I don't know that he's going to I think he might just be as Dana says maybe this is who he really is absolutely not fixable it's fixable to the people that he's spoken to that agree with with him sure but and from my angle I'm good it's not fixable you've shown me who you are with all that's going on in the world in the past year year and a half I see you I don't have to agree or silently disagree with the excuses that I hear other people making you I see who he is I believe him leave him alone and move on and go to places where you are supported not to places where you're not supported because he's too uncomfortable to deal with it has that privilege listen she could be right I I and and I I I'm not arguing I'm I'm it's I gotta tell you it sickens me it just really I'm it just really makes me sad that this is this is where this ends up within one blog post he takes this wonderful small Giants company and now it's a we're just here to make software none of this is our concern do whatever you want do you guys think at all about whether this has an impact on the way people look at business owners yes yes I'm sorry to say that too that's why I'm so impassionate about it I've been coming this way for the last couple of years I'm taking CEO off of everything I'm just going to be founder president I don't want the CEO has gotten has gotten so maligned as to what what you hear about CEOs I don't I don't want to be called a CEO I don't be thought of as a CEO I'm going to be founder president it's really unfortunate that this is what business owners are see that's how they are all they care about is money you know it's it's really unfor it's anti- small Giants it's the opposite of what small Giants is and I was always proud to be in the book I was always proud to be associated with the mentality behind it and here's someone that was in that group and all of a sudden oops maybe not all right um I need a drink now well um I had some other things that I wanted to try to discuss here but um it doesn't really seem appropriate to uh to go back to business as usual after this conversation oh go for it Lauren go why not yeah get us out of the mood let's talk about puppies and flowers Dana last time you were on a couple weeks ago you uh dropped a surprise that uh you had decided to franchise your hair salons yes what's going on well I drafted a letter to all my employees saying listen we never ever going to talk about societal and I'm kidding I'm sorry um I had to slip that in there sorry anyway no so I'm in started the franchise process um had the privilege of working with my my first team member this week it was um 112h hour day 8 to8 um the next day was you know um a 10hour day I think um and it was wow you talk about downloading everything about your business that's been in your head for years it's a lot of great energy re-engage it's great you've been meeting with your franchising consultant right yes sir yes have you learned anything uh that's either surprised you or taken you back or uh or made you even more excited the one thing that made me more excited is again this constant we get it we get it we get it and that keeps coming up throughout the process that's always been a hangup for me as you know finding my tribe who really understands what I'm doing and and they really do they've done their homework um one of the concerns I had was you know making sure that they understand that this is a black business that's going to serve black people and we're you know transitioning over 100 Years of Hair Care tradition a cookie cutter um a cookie cutter model for franchising is not going to work here and they've done a really good job of adapting um and you know making sure that the franchise process that I'm going through really fits what the mission and vision is for peral Boyd part of my selection process will be a a personality test and a lot of franchise companies have them um and there's a process like there's a whole coffee lunch dinner Pro get to know you process so once a perly boy franchise is awarded we know each other fairly well um and they've talked to me about some things about Dana that makes that that process an easier process to have versus other franchise owners that they've worked with Dan is an open book um and want to get to know people and and it's not about the money for me A lot of times that's where franchises go wrong they're selecting people because you're looking to develop an area let's say in Chicago and you want to you know open five over the next five years and oh I'm going to take you on because you have the money without really understanding who's going to operate those businesses and what that relationship is between the me money person and the operating person and is the operator the owner it's just a lot of different dynamics that I wish I had known I would have done this sooner had I known we're just about out of time Jay nothing yeah no you got some news okay you've been telling us since I don't know the beginning of the pandemic year and a half no before the pandemic year and a half that you've been trying to get a bank loan any news with that done what yeah congratulations the sixth Bank um and I could have had two babies by now it was 18 months and um now I hear the banks are loosening up a little bit but um yeah and I really don't need the money anymore and no I really don't I I but that phrase get money when you when you don't need it is true that's not just a little quip is that the lesson of this situation absolutely I'm going to take the money and just sit on it because who knows what's coming around the next corner and and I want to be prepared because if it turns out I need the money the banks hide under the table whenever things get tight and um and and when I say I've been through six Banks I mean banks that their bread and butter is small business I mean this isn't like I I was going to banks that just do car loans in the neighborhood or something all right my thanks to Jake colz William Vander bluman and Dana White as always thanks for sharing everybody wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that's L ren21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you really think you can take it and if you got something out of this conversation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter subscribe to the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by Jess Theron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone [Music]