Do You Feel Shame Taking Money From the Government?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to what used to be the 21 hats podcast and is now the business Advantage TV podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week we caught up with three of our regulars and talked about what's working and what's not working as they try to get back to some semblance of normality one recurring theme a lot of employees have gotten used to working at home and they kind of like it a couple of our owners aren't so sure but then we moved on to another topic and things got a little heated I quoted from an opinion piece that ran in the morning report last week in it genan Marx an entrepreneur wrote that competent business owners shouldn't have had to go begging shamelessly for a government bailout meaning the paycheck Protection Program loans all three of my guests took PPP loans but the comment irked one of them in particular if you've been listening to this podcast you probably know which one even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will if nothing else let owners know they are not alone in facing these challenges this week's podcast lineup features Jay goz whose businesses in Chicago include a picture frame shop artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home William Vander blumen who is CEO of Vander bluman Search Group a recruiting firm based in Houston that works with churches and other faith-based organizations and Dana White who is CEO of paral Boyd a chain of hair salons based in Detroit this episode is titled do you feel shame taking money from the Govern [Music] government let's start with a quick update on uh where all of your businesses stand um how about you Dana tell us uh what's going on with parle Boyd par Le Boyd is doing okay um we've had uh some last minute outbreaks with Corona virus with fam so we've got some people on the beginning and some on the end of their two we quarantine you're talking about employees yes not me employees but you're not open yet right no but we can be but I have decided to wait and we just figured out what that opening date was today now that we know that everybody's tests are in every we know who sick and who's not um and so now that we know who's sick we know how much time we need in order to open so I'll be sending that email out probably tomorrow letting all of our guests know when we will be back open when did it become okay for you to open junee 15th what date are you thinking July 6th what are you going to do about the employees uh who are are sick are you going to have to test your employees yeah all of my staff are being tested um anyway before they come back so before they come back so none of my employees are sick but either their children or the parent they live with are sick so it's in the house it's in the house right and they're helping with care so they're all quarantining in the home so what we're going to do is just one everybody's being tested anyway to come back um and then we're just going to have them test to make sure that they're negative and then we're probably going to do I'm going to see how many tests we allowed to do because I wanted to do it every two weeks um and then getting that team in place um to come and sanitize the salon after we started probably once a week so there's a lot of moving parts to opening a salon that a lot of salons aren't doing right and so it's a lot of they think oh I'll put on gloves and a face mask and we'll be okay no sweetie there's there's more to it in that now that Michigan is having a spike when you say you want to see how often you're allowed to do the tests Allowed by whom what what are you referring to so uh Oakland County and Wayne County the city of Detroit have been really great about helping businesses get reopened so there are a lot owing us to go and our staff get free testing at sites in the counties and so I don't know if you're only allowed to do one I don't know if you're allowed to do two I'll find out um and if there you are only allowed to do one what is the cost of a second one um especially when we have people coming back on the tail end of a quarantine I didn't realize Michigan was uh spiking again how bad is it not bad it's not Texas or Arizona or Florida but um you're seeing some of the Memorial Day cases start to come to fruition it's what happened with my employee son he said oh the ban is lifted early June so he and some friends hopped in a car and drove to Florida Miami and just spread it on their way back up and by the time he came back he was sick uh William I think uh Dana just gave you a call out there she mentioned Texas and I believe you guys have been setting a record every day the last few days we set records every day all the time Lauren that's what do is I mean our airport is not even an international airport it's an Intercontinental Airport I don't know what what that even means but uh yeah no we're setting records and what does that mean for you uh nothing I mean um nothing at all actually uh even the most conservative churches in town are opening up uh with some really creative things what I'm seeing in my little corner of the world is uh yes arising cases but our our our numbers in ICU are actually dropping rather significantly and the hospital intake that's happening is on General floors and not ICU it's not uh it's not as dire as some would say now I think out in the west part of the state where a lot of meat packing plants is different I think inmates in prisons it's very very different and unfair but uh uh for the for the business world that we're working in I'm not seeing a lot of change are you going back into the office office uh what percentage of capacity would you say you're operating at great question so I'm in my office now um it's funny you guys saw it uh over the I set up my little bunker in my house and loved it and really kind of mourned packing it up and bringing stuff back up here uh and I told ading this week was my first week back in the office and I kind of boned having to come up here and then I got home and last night over dinner I said you know Adrian I got more done when I was at work than when I was at home she said yeah well that's not surprising William that's what I've been saying so I and she likes me so um we're we're at about so we have a team and B Team uh so that if we have a positive test we can just quarantine the B Team tell them not to come back but you haven't had any positives so far not yet we're about 25% capacity we could be higher if we wanted we decided to wait until after the 4th uh most of our work can be done fairly well remotely we don't have the issues that Jay and Dana face of having to have real storefront uh quite as much so uh July 6th we we were just going over this with staff we'll go back to uh everyone in the office um and we're we're still limiting travel for our Consultants uh that'll start in August are you getting any push back everybody happy to come back into the office or are people not at all people are complaining quite a bit based on concerns about health yes not I don't want to come back to an office we have a great team and complain is probably too strong a word but so don't put that in the little blurb to get people to read the morning report but uh but but but I I'm actually running into this with several small business owners who do in person that have great cultures and a high quoti of Millennials and they're very concerned about health and then somewhere underneath that and I don't know if this is true for our team but the other small business owners I've talked to somewhere underneath the health concern is say I really like working from home and I think I can still get my stuff done so do I have to come back in no one's saying that out loud but it is it's an undercurrent in other businesses that I'm hearing my people what I'm hearing is we just want to be really careful we don't and I've got new mothers on staff that are worried about babies and so I I don't think it's a lack of desire to want to work Jay do you have both of your uh companies open again artist frame service is now open people are coming in we've got Plexi Shields hanging and I got to tell you people are coming in and happy to be in my home store has been open we're selling lots of plants my wholesale business Bella selling to other frame shops is getting orders now and everybody's back to work and I'm going through the last week of Shifting The Factory doing staggered shifts because we're doing you know enough business we need everyone there now I have my CFO coming in I have to give you the picture I'm wearing a mask he's wearing a mask and he goes yeah listen no one in the county wants to come back to work they want to work from home so I have to to say to him Jim my mouth is hanging open under my mask really and so we're going to have to rethink that whole thing and it's not that simple there's lot to why don't they want to come in because they like staying home it's like I keep thinking okay all right we're almost back to normal now I actually went out to lunch in an outdoor thing and felt like oh my God look at I'm eating lunch outside thought thought back to normal so now I come back to this I'm like I can't wait to see what Monday brings me I it's like it's like yeah they want us they like to work out at home nice nice for them good for them keep in mind now I'm not downtown they don't have to pay for parking um many of them live seven minutes away so it's not like oh my God I don't have to sit in the traffic for an hour and a half it's it's so so we're looking at it all but what do you do about new employees that need to be trained what about so here I am almost by myself in the office with my payable person and like no one else is here and I have to call the CFO every couple it's it's it's not ideal so with that being said I recognize that with the internet with computers the world's changed some of this we can do from home so I'm keeping an open mind to it but you know I've been reading a lot about you know people discovering how productive everybody can be working from home there's been a lot of happy talk about how eyes have been opened and there's a you know there's a whole new world here and people are not going to be going back into their offices and businesses are going to save money cuz they AR aren't going to need all of that uh commercial and and and what I'm hearing here today is is a little bit different what I found out this week about William vanderlin is he does better work when he's at his office so my friend works for a major company here in Detroit and they have found that their staff is a lot more productive from home projects are moving along faster and they have been told they don't have to come back into the office until January because that's just how well things are going and they could save money on space so that story's been written a lot I've seen a lot of that yeah okay I will guarantee you I will guarantee you some professor at Harvard or somebody from somewhere is going to write this big article in six months or a year that says oh my wait we thought we were going to save 7% in occupancy costs with our offices but gee it turns out that our output's down by 20% because there's a little bit of La line going on here the fact of the matter is what about when you've got employee turnover and they're not the same people that have been with you for eight years the brand new employee gets hired who's training theming them you're getting me fired up Jake you need to come down here and sing it's we have not added a staff person under these circumstances and I want to see what onboarding looks like and I think that we are in sort of a utopian La La Land as you say I mean like well I just hired three people virtually how'd that go it's going great they're doing their they're doing their training courses they're where we can see where how far along they've gone in training we see where they stumble that these are stylist well we've done stylist virtually as far as they do their ma their model via Zoom um and we're watching first things but then we are you know we're not going to stay with that because there's things we want to see up close but I'm I'm seeing that there are things that need to get done at per boy before we open and I'm not going to wait until we can all get together to do it and I find that the hiring is going great Dana why are you H you have expressed months ago on the podcast I believe that you you had some concern about whether employees were going to want to come back or or not is are you hiring now because employees did not want to come back no I'm hiring now because there's employees that we didn't want to come back I am happy to say that over 90% of my staff are leaving their current job and are coming back because they loved working there their current job meaning that they found other employment during this period yeah but some of them didn't have the hours to get the full-time unemployment benefit that was you know making everybody not want to come back but um and that ends in July everybody is ready to go July 6 you know what I want to be very very clear I am sure in some cases people that do computer programming maybe graphic design people that work in cities where the traffic's horrendous people that pay $30 a day for parking I am sure there are a lot of situations where this will work out great how about accounting I doubt it I in my case J how about people how about people with small children in their house because I'm not seeing that right well I'll give you the other one which is I can't think of all of the great ideas that we've come up here with people sitting around talking we've come up with these great advertising things or great ideas collaborative thinking collaborative talking collab people working together and then there's the bringing in the new employees so a while ago a couple years ago I had a new graphic designer very talented and I found out that half the day she sat some sat in her office crying literally my other employees go do you know every time I go in there she's crying like this person unfortunately was a complete mess how would I know that if she was sitting home no there's definitely a benefit to in our interpersonal communication and whatever but I think the biggest thing I would challenge you guys with is if you have employees that are saying we'd rather stay at home find out why what is the culture in that department that makes them not prefer to come in and it's not that they want to necessarily stay home with their kids and when we've just coming on the heels of a pandemic everybody's it you know itching to get out but if if it's not something that you're offering and they're coming to ask you for it I would I would wonder H what is it about this department or this work environment that is making people more comfortable staying at home than coming in on the end of a pandemic nobody asked me that when I wanted to come stay at home there was a reason why I didn't want to come into the office every day nobody cared we like everybody talking to each other eating lunch in the breakroom stopping by each other's office and saying hi having that interpersonal connection there's a reason why I wanted to forego that and there may be a reason why your accounting department wants to no that's a fair that's a fair question I would just tell people after everything that's been going on for the last 12 weeks like don't I would suggest the best approach isn't to plop into your boss's office go hey I want to keep working from home I might suggest it' be better to say hey how how's it been working with me home I think it's I've actually been some more productive in areas I think I like to talk to you about maybe making some just like do a little soft sell just a go dumping because I gotta tell you it's like really it just soft are you are you asking the question though are you saying I haven't gotten that far yet yeah get that far there's something there there's a reason why they feel better working at home on the end of a pandemic than coming into the office well listen part of it is the pandemic no question I that I respect that there are some people that are afraid of getting okay fair enough that's that's part of this I'm just telling you Jay have those accountants been working straight through during the pandemic from home my control's been working straight through the payable person comes in every couple days my CFO has been home every day yeah and has it been okay I have to decide whether they'll be listening to this podcast or not they're not they're definitely not they told me okay you call someone I won't mention names and all of a sudden sudden you're engaged in a conversation with their spouse that you really didn't necessarily want to have and all of a sudden you find out that your their spouse knows all about your business and they're giving you their input to it and it's you know it's it's like now all of a sudden I don't have the person working for me I got them and their spouse working for me but that's professionalism though like that's like I think if you set up a work atome kind of dynamic or you know there's that's a conversation like that's what they're doing at my friend's company right like they're saying okay now that you're going to be working home until January here are the rules this is how fair enough if someone calls you and the caller ID says it's Company please don't have anyone else answer the phone just let it go to message fair enough it's like going to a office party and somebody spouse walks up to you and says hey Jay about that new accounting software you know my husband thinks it's awful you know that's just unprofessional whether no here's my favorite one holiday party for those of who been married a long time think of how this one comes off um Young woman walks up to the the wife of this of the vi of the guy who's in charge and goes oh my God I love your husband he's so easy to talk to how do you think that goes over on the way home oh you can't talk to me at home but you seem I mean I got it but that just went wow I I'm thinking of okay if you were married for 30 years trust me you'd say to yourself oh that's not going to end well and as as expected it didn't he got the ear on the way home you speaking about a friend Jay no no this was an employee who's no longer here um here's the key the key is this might be great for the employee but you know what um how's it working for the company like sometimes it isn't just what's great for the employee sometimes it's like okay I get it's good for you you can work in pajamas and you don't have to take you don't have to drive you okay great for you how's that helping the company now that I can't walk by an office and make a quick comment or ask a question well as you acknowledged before that you know there is still a medical issue there is still a reason uh to be careful for the moment sure and um you know there is an advantage to the company of having fewer people in the office wait wait wait wait let me stop you on that not really I don't own you know I own this building if they're in their office or they're not I'm not paying for more office space that's a fcy that it's always saving money no from a medical standpoint I'm talking about for the absolutely for sure the medical thing let's assume that the pandemic is going to go away at some point once we're back to some kind of normal without a pandemic it's there's no great advantage to me to have to pick up the phone and call my employee every time I want to go oh by the way did you pay the invoice or blah blah it's there's no big Advantage for me in this whole thing could be a while though William I wanted to go back to you you you talked about the capacity you're up to now I forget the exact number uh that you use but what's limiting that is that self-imposed or your clients not back in gear yet why are you at that point uh a little bit of both but self-imposed would be the the the main reason I mean we we as we've discussed on the podcast back in mid-march when this started to get clear our our business hinges on uh churches and schools and nonprofits and so two-thirds of that which is more than two-thirds of our business churches and schools aren't meeting so we had to recalibrate and uh we recalibrated and set new second quarter ambitious but but attainable goals and uh We've hit all those so uh it's not that clients aren't open we've got plenty to do and and we've got we've done all these sort of service projects on the side like the PPP program and such um it's it's more us and uh like you know if I'm really honest I'd rather see someone else pay the stupid tax of opening too soon and I want to learn from somebody that goes a little quicker than us because we can take our time a little like little things like you know we're only on the fifth floor but it does require an elevator so how are we going to do that in a way that provides safety and peace of mind for our people or break rooms or the coffee pot or you know all that kind of stuff I I think we'll get there but I am horrible at inventing Wheels I'm really good at improving other people's wheels so I'm I'm going to let some of the rest of the building open up first and then bring our people back when I can learn from what they've done and and improve I will tell you the I'm at the moment with the pandemic stay home I it's clearly not wor whatever problems I'm talking about are minimal compared to someone any6 so until the pandemic's done stay home not a problem if they can I I I'm not pushing it I just long term though I don't know that I want to change the way the whole business works because somebody found out oh I like not driving seven minutes to work I want to stay home but I just think you should stay open to the fact that there's a reason why they may that what they are not seeing might another yeah I think outside of the pandemic I think there may be another reason why you know they don't see it Through Your Eyes well if Laura was on here she'd say because they hate me so all right that could be the case but Dana you're way too nice to say that so no I don't think it's because I hate you no no you're right absolutely I don't think I hate you but I do think you're you're saying hey this is what I want I'm the leader you know there hey it's me you know so if I think we work better like this then we do and I'm saying there's it's there's might be a red flag in that accounting department where no and is you know what to this case I have to tell you there could be because there is some tension in there between there you might be on to something with that Dana I have to ask you now that you have a uh an open date we've spent a good bit of time talking about the pricing of your services have you made a decision about whether or not you're going to raise your prices when you reopen absolutely day one raising prices done whoa graduation day let I know you're going to go from $40 to 50 good for you yeah I've talked to other stylists I've talked to other business owners and you know their advice to me is Dana you haven't raise your prices in seven years what are you doing right it's basic math x amount of heads at 40 if you lost 20% of the people but got 50 your gross sales haven't gone down and you're working less it's not brain surgery it's just math so so you've told your stylist and you didn't get any push back from them no they clapped that's when you know it's time to raise prices you did uh tell us that you were concerned about how you would let your customers know about this you wanted to let them know in advance and give them some time to to to let it sink in are are you doing that are you still concerned about that yes so that um the communication has not been my strongest point when it comes to my guest so that'll be done through the weekend and over you know the week leading up to the weeks rather leading up to um opening I want to do a video and email that out to my customer saying this is what we're going to do to pick up where we left off um going forward um and just some of the changes that they can expect seen going forward keeping them safe and our guest safe um but I am going to talk about the price increase um and I think you know like Jay said it's about not being afraid I think a lot of business owners as I was nervous and afraid to do what you have to do to to keep your business afloat and it's not that oh I needed to do it or my business was going to fail yeah in time it was but I have to remember I'm a businesswoman of the 21 hats we wear uh that could be the one hat that we forget we we become the employer first we become the social worker sometimes but the businesswoman in regards to making and earning money that hat can be you know put away so I had to dust it off and say how could pely boy benefit and pely boy after seven years needs to raise her prices $10 so so she can you know make money because I'm a businesswoman and that's what I'm here to do it's not my sole purpose but it is the purpose I am not a nonprofit sometimes we are a nonprofit that's the problem we're not sometimes we are but we're not supposed to be no no and and and the other thing is people need to get over guilt like you're not killing anybody you're charging a reasonable amount that it takes you to make a profit I was expecting Jay to jump in with that you you you sounded a little bit apologetic about wanting to make a profit and I figured I'd let Jay do the dirty work here I used to be apologetic I was I think before but now I'm like let's do what I need to do I have years of experience talking to picture frame store owners many of which probably half of which barely make a living and I this is the line you hear from them well I don't want to rip anyone off oh for God's sakes we're not ripping anyone off here's the other one well I want to be fair there's no such thing as Fair here's the word a appropriate you want to charge the appropriate price what does that mean the appropriate price is the price that you can make a living and that your customers will pay that's the appropriate price there's no fair in this there's no ripping people off if you ask me Jay what is the biggest mistake you've made in business I would tell you in one second I've always been hesitant to raise prices much to my and it's cost me a zillion dollars over the years so I I you know I've been there myself you got to do what you got to do can't be afraid to do what's right business you just can't all right so we only have a few minutes left and I want to get to uh the conversation that Jay has been dying to have for about 3 days in the morning report this week we ran an opinion piece from a an entrepreneur that uh that I know well named Jean Marx uh he wrote in respect to business owners who've been getting PPP money and all three of you have uh he wrote many of us complain about govern govern interference we resist regulations we avoid paying taxes we don't want the government in our lives why should we we can make it happen without anyone's help it's a free market for goodness sake just leave us alone and let us do our thing thank you very much that's what I heard that's what I've even said now let's F Flash Forward you know what I'm hearing a lot from those very same uh entrepreneurs fiercely independent entrepreneurs myself included what I'm hearing now is where's my government bailout check we had our hands out for pay check protection money as soon as it was available we shamelessly begged for disaster loans and other Aid and when the money didn't come fast enough we complained we make up these fairy tales about our courageous entrepreneurism we tell everyone that we're Brave business owners but we're not we are not without the need for our own government safety net when the you know what hits the fan thoughts anybody Jay thank you um you left out one paragraph I left out several I know Jean I like Jean Jean's a nice guy I am horrified he wrote this if I was his editor I could have fixed it by just taking out a couple of sentences here's the sentence you left out not all business owners I know needed a government bailout why because they know how to competently run a business they stored away reserved for a rainy day even a months long Monsoon like this one they have low maintenance Lifestyles and flexible overheads how dare he that is the most smug condescending insulting ignorant disrespectful and just plain mean comment and I understand where he's coming from Jean is fashioned his business by working out of his condo his house and he has a lot of contract employees and it works for him more power to him but to suggest that the rest of us should figure out how to have flexible overheads and be competent to run a business to suggest that oh Dana if you were competent you would have known to put a few hundred grand in the bank in case things went bad in William if you were competent you wouldn't have had any real employees you would have had all contract labor and you'd be working out of your house how dare he say that to the restaurant owners to the to the to the hair salon to the the people that have signed leases to the people that can't be flexible to the people that have grown their businesses and then to add insult to injury he finishes it with the oh we we make up these fairy tales about our courageous entrepreneurism we tell everyone we're Brave business yes we are yes we we provide jobs yes we pay taxes how about this one I have paid probably a hundred million dollar in sales tax real estate taxes payroll taxes I'm saying I'm I'm thankful the government gave me the money it it helped it it might I don't think I would have gone out of business but it would have been extremely difficult but like to use the phrase We shamelessly begged for God's Sak shamelessly begged so yeah I like Jean I'm sorry that Jean didn't have an Editor to catch this I would hope he would get that perspective I have to finish with he wrapped himself in 24 we's in this article we we we he's not really talking about we he's talking about us because my guess is he didn't take the PPP and he's sitting there on his smug ass now thinking look how smart I am I've got only contract employees or mostly I didn't have to take the PPP Jay I got to stop you there I think you're wrong about that you uh actually I know you're wrong about that uh he he wrote you know what I'm hearing a lot from those very same fiercely independent entrepreneurs myself included where's my government bailout check he asked for it too he got it too okay well then I get the point of his article that don't complain about the government and then want their money okay fair enough like I said this whole thing would have been fine without that those couple of sentences I really have a problem with the competently run the business and shamelessly begged I have a real problem with those two William do you think Jean had a point oh I don't know how to how to figure out what's right for Gan I'm just trying to figure out what's right for me I mean we've got clients that are churches that could have really benefited from PPP but were filled with members who were small business owners and early in the PPP there what is there enough money is there enough money is there enough money and so I had pastors who felt guilty about applying for it because they might be depriving their members of money that might help their business so I I think it's a complex thing I I I think Jean's pieace I mean categorical imperatives sell right it must be this way we all did this it's just not that easy generalizations are dangerous they are and I think you know Lauren not to go all all religious on people but there's a line in the Old Testament scriptures or the Jewish scriptures however you want to read them about these men called the Sons of isachar and and what were they known for they were known for being able to read and understand their time and I think that's the key for me is what's right for our company in this time how do I read it how do I understand it and and I guess maybe I'm just getting Dumber but I I think if there's something I would disagree with Jean's article it's the categorical imperatives because I just don't think they apply what about the phrase shamelessly begged how do you feel about that do you feel you shamelessly begged for the money from the government I didn't beg I filled out a form yeah did you did you feel shame in it I sure didn't no not a bit Dana did you feel shame do you feel shame getting money from the government no okay that's all I wanted to say I don't think any uh business owner should feel shame for for taking uh money from the government that said and I think we all know this there are a lot of uh business owners who have spent a a lot of time disparaging the government for everything for regulation no you're right he's right no question Jay you and I once did an event in Atlanta uh where I had to debate another business owner we we're talking about what the minimum wage should be and his answer was there shouldn't be any minimum wage this is America people should make it on their own that's the way we do things here and uh you know I I know Jay that you do not agree with that but I don't think it set you off as much as what jean said no no I told you I would have been perfectly fine with this whole thing without those two phrases they know how to comp run a business and they shame without that fair enough stop complaining about the government I don't complain about the minimum wage thing I think the government does some good stuff I've said the SBA Loans are a wonderful thing so I totally get his point with all that with that being said and and I'm a little worn out I have to tell you you know I would I this got me really upset how dare he say that why did it get you so upset because I'm fighting a three front Roar here and I don't even take this personally I'm thinking of all of those entrepreneurs that are trying to do trying to run a business trying to make happy customers restaurants hair salons you know it trying to to S survive this whole thing trying to take care of the emotional the financial and the physical needs of their fighting a good fight trying to stay in business so they can continue paying taxes and he comes along and has to call us Shameless for taking money from the government or this is the one that was even worse competently run a bit oh we're incompetent because these people didn't have six months of savings put away that's how I felt when we first closed in March and I we were on the podcast and and we were all talking and and I said you know I just don't know what I'm going to do part of me not knowing what to do was me sitting there reflecting over the fact of all that I hadn't done and part of the reason why I thought about closing is because if I didn't have three to six months Reserve in the bank what type of business owner am I if I can't you know if I need the help right and so I spoke with my mentor who owned several companies whose revenues and hundreds of millions of dollars and he said so I guess I'm a failure I've been in business over 30 years and I said oh gosh no you're you're and he goes well I need the PPP and I'm going to take that eidl too and I said why he said because anybody who has hundreds of thousands of dollars saved up and is a competent business owner is reinvesting that money in the business that's it and he's not a journalist if he was a journalist maybe I'd cut him some slack and go he doesn't understand just remember the world I'm living in the world we're all living in for these entrepreneurs are drowning are afraid they're going to lose their business and he's got to finish it up with we tell everyone that we're Brave business Pioneers but we're not no we are and on that note we are at of time my thanks to Dana White to William Vander bluman and to Jay goz be careful out there thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman at 21h hats.com see you next time [Music]