Do You Want to Serve Clients—or Build a Business?

[Music] Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. This week, David C. Barnett, Kate Morgan, and Sarah Seagull tackle a challenge every owner who sells services eventually faces. Clients want to hire you, but you want them to understand they'll mostly be working with your team. How do you make that clear without scaring them off? For some, it's a delicate balancing act. For Kate, it's simple. If a client insists on her personal time, she charges, in her words, a boatload of cash. Plus, we dive into another tricky owner decision. How to structure bonus plans that truly drive retention. David is weighing a deferred bonus approach where payouts happen over several years. It's a proven way to keep people around, but he wonders, do you really want employees who'd otherwise leave to stay just for the money? Also, when valued employees get an offer, do you counter offer? And if they leave, do you tell them they can always come back? Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges. In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community, engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insights only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, you can sign up for the Morning Report newsletter, which offers examples every day of owners confronting challenges and seizing opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. Joining me this week on the podcast are David C. Barnett, who's based in New Brunswick, Canada, and helps people buy and sell businesses. Jay Goldz who is CEO of the Golds Group whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason Hull and Kate Morgan who is CEO of Boston Human Capital Partners which is based in Boston and offers recruiting and fractional HR services. The episode is titled Do you want to serve clients or build a business? [Music] Welcome, David, Kate, and Sarah. It's great to have all of you here. I want to start today by talking about retaining employees. Uh there's been a lot said of late about what's come to be known as job hugging as the economy has weakened. Employees have been far less eager to jump ship than they were in recent years, especially during the Great Resignation period. And yet, clearly, you can't assume that your best employees are just going to stick around forever. Sarah, you've been through this recently. Can can you tell us what happened in your situation? >> Yeah, I'm happy to share. Um, so, uh, my company has only been around for we're hitting our eighth year. We're going into our ninth in January. Um, and so you people's tenure, um, you know, over any period of time is significant. But, um, I had a woman who had started with me as an intern, um, and had been with me for the last four years. uh she has departed. Her last day was on uh last week for a great new job and I'm really happy for her but you know I'm also really sad for me. I did not expect her to you know stay on forever and I knew that at some point it would happen but like you know you're never prepared for it because well you're never prepared but yet you should always be prepared for it. I live in a really expensive city and I'm a, you know, smaller agency without really big budgets and we don't do a lot of tech clients which give you lots of retainer money and so I have a cap on what I can offer people. So it was bound to happen and it happened in a good way. She handled it well and you know we went out for drinks with the whole team to say goodbye to her. So it was it was good. Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you talked to us, I don't know, maybe a year or so ago about making a deliberate attempt to make sure you did everything you could to retain long-term employees. Am I remembering that correctly? >> Yeah, I mean, I do. And part of it is always looking at my benefits package and making sure that it's, you know, reasonably competitive cuz I I'm of a young team. The most important thing for my space and what I do is that they always have to be learning something like there has to be something that they are learning how to do because once they stop learning that's when they get bored and want to move on and and chase other dollars and opportunities. So it's like a balance between professional development um making sure that the benefits not just in terms of the money and the health care but in terms of like work work life balance is there and building a community that people want to be a part of where they're happy you know where there's not there's no drama um where it's a good work environment. I think that all those things build into a long-term relationship with employees. Has this experience made you rethink any of your policies or procedures? Is there anything you think you should do differently going forward? >> That's a good question. Um, I don't know that I would like try to make her stay or countered the offer because I think that it was also time for her to to challenge herself in different ways. You know, I did say you don't like it, call me up. You can come back. Um, but it also reinforces the way that I've really tried to manage my business after having some times when I didn't do things so well. There were a couple clients that love her, like love, love, love her, but the clients had understood that she was part of a team. And she was very good about following protocols of like not having one-on-one um interactions and communications with clients that everything was brought back into the team alias. And that way it was never about just one individual having the relationship with the client. It was always about the team. Um I had made that mistake. um a number of years ago ago where I had um a a team member who really was the the point of contact for this client. They weren't a big client, but they were a long-term client and I actually had to downsize because of some uh because of the economy, changing client scope, all that kind of good stuff. And I downsized and let her go. And then my client who I had let us go and hired her >> because the relationship was not really with the agency. It was with that individual. And so I've really tried hard not to make that mistake again. And I think I've been pretty successful. >> How do you avoid that mistake? What do you do differently? >> Well, I just keep I mean it's like reinforce like a client texts you on your phone, say, you know, answer them in the group chat. you know, a client emails you individually, add the alias back on. You know, like that is your job. I'm paying you to do that. I'm not paying you to have these these side conversations. It's the hit by the bus rule. Like, I need to know what's going on. So, that way you get hit by a bus, I'm looped in. I can't be surprised. Um, every once in a while it comes up where somebody has had made an arrangement and I'll be like, "Oh, okay. Where's that conversation?" and I'll jump in and u explain that we can't do that and they'll be like oh well we just talked about it on the phone like no like you talk about things like that on the phone it has to be sent in an email saying hey thanks so much for the conversation we discussed this looping in the team so we can move forward with this has to be done >> Dave or Kate are either of you doing anything differently these days to uh address employee retention >> I've been very fortunate um I two people have been with me for 13 years. I have more that have been, you know, five plus years. So, I really look and it's Sarah's kind of addressed this is you have the motivational hygiene theory and making sure that you have a balance of both the intrinsic motivators and the exttrinsic. And yeah, in a professional services environment, it's really difficult for us to compete, particularly with VC backed companies when they're paying 150,000 for internal corporate recruiters. That's what I'm up against. So, I have to really layer in because I can't afford to pay that. I have to layer in things that they grow from and feel like they have purpose and meaning. So that that's really what I've been always focused on is having that balance, but also I work very hard on making sure that it works for their families. So even from way back when when I first started, I would have club trips and I'd always invite the significant others because that helps to reinforce them to stay on board as opposed to wanting to jump ship and risk themselves going internal to another company. >> How about you, David? >> Great question. I mean, I don't have a very big uh a big team. I think what I've been trying to do because I'm I'm aware of the kind of investment I need to make um in getting people up to the performance level that I need them. Some of my analyst staff really need a year and a half with me before they're they're able to execute on the files the way that I want them to. And I and I know that I have to make sure that I hire the right person. And so what I've been trying to do is not just find people that are qualified, but find people for whom the position is a really great opportunity that I think they'll find exciting and worthwhile and want to be a part of for a long time. Um, just so that uh we can have enough of an opportunity to uh to let the relationship blossom and and for me to get a positive ROI on investing in their development. >> And so far you found that to be working for you? >> Yeah. I mean, when it doesn't, I'll let you know. >> Please do. >> It is heartbreaking though, Sarah, when you invest so much in somebody and they leave. >> I know. But you kind of have like No, you have to be an idiot not to expect people to eventually leave. So, I don't know. I think I'm always kind of just preparing myself for that moment. >> Oh, yeah. When you when you get the, "Hey, can we have a one-on-one?" And you're like, "Oh god, they're my stomach." Yeah. >> No, my my worst. So, I have this thing like if you put time on my calendar, I have to know why you're putting time on my calendar. >> Yes. Yes. And so, like >> as soon as somebody puts time on my calendar for just me and them, like it's I'm like uh so she that's what she did. >> She put time on her calendar. I messaged her on Slack. I was like, "Do I need to know something?" And she's like, "I think you know. >> I think it's something that you don't want to hear." I'm like, "Oh, no." >> I was working at home. I went down to my kitchen. I'm like, "Emily's leaving. >> I hope it's good." But the the cool thing about it is it's a good place. Like, I'm really excited for her. Um, like it's a cool job. It, you know, makes me look good in that like I've developed people that this fancy company wants to hire. So, like, yeah, I'm I'm good with it. She did it well timing wise um in terms of our staffing. She didn't leave us in a hole. But I've had people do that before. I had one woman and I'm sure I lamented about it on this um podcast years ago who went on vacation and then so supposedly worked remotely um but really didn't um and then I got this is my favorite one and this is has this has happened multiple times where I get a employment verification call before the person's even told me that they're leaving and I'm like who are you verifying for? and they'll tell me the name and I'm like, "Oh, interesting." I get the employer, I know something's going to happen. I called them up. I was like, "What's going on?" They're like, "Oh, I was going to let you know the day that holiday vacation started." So, like the day that we're all on vacation. And I'm like, "So, you were going to tell me that you were leaving and that that was going to be your notice over vacation." So, basically making me have to work my entire vacation to find a replacement for you over the holidays. Like, not well done. Yeah, that bridge very burned. >> So, when Sarah was first telling us about this, she mentioned a couple of things. I think she said that she did not try to match the offer. Um, and she also said that she did say if it doesn't work out, you can come back. I think there's kind of different schools of thought as to whether those two steps are are good ideas, Kate or Dave. >> Yeah. Well, I can I can tell you because we we deal with this a lot, right? When when we're making hires for our clients and we're talking to the candidates saying, "Hey, when you give your notice, what do you think they're going to do?" Because a lot of times, you know, particularly if they're highly valued employee, they will have a counter offer to try and keep them. So, we're already trying to work with the candidate to mentally prepare them for that and what they're going to do. the very beginning of our conversations, we're really focused in on what their key motivators are, what are those pain points, and we start to pull them out throughout the interview process because when we get to the end and they get our counter offer, most of the time they're they're just slapping a band-aid on with money, but the actual reasons why the people want to leave, that won't change. So when they do accept that counter offer from their current company, I just say, "Well, in six weeks they're going to be miserable again, so let's go back after them then if the the position's still open." I I agree with you thoroughly because actually I don't as a practice do a counter offer and the reason why is that people shouldn't be working for me in the first place if it's just for the money because what my agency offers is experience cool campaigns like portfolio worthy stuff. It's not a job you take because you're going to get a big paycheck. And like I actually say that to people when they're interviewing with me. I'm like, if you're here to like, you know, break it in, go to a tech agency. Like 100% go find a tech or a biotech agency and work for them because this job is not for the money. It's for the experience and the value and that all that kind of stuff. >> Isn't that kind of saying to them, you may not want to stay here long term? >> Maybe, but also like there's a lot of other stuff that I offer besides like big paychecks. I mean, I do pay and I pay, you know, at the going rate, but the going rate for PR and lifestyle space is a much different going rate than that in the text. So, like, you can't be like, oh, I heard so so and so over at this agency um gets pays their account executives this amount, like why can't I have that here? It's just it's not the same thing. It's not apples to apples. though I don't counter if they've already made up their mind that they want to leave they want to leave but asking someone back and saying if you want to come back I'm not talking about like their next job but down the road we had this wonderful woman leave and you know I was talking to her casually and I was like you know if you ever start a family and you don't want to you know be in the the corporate world anymore and you still want to keep your foot in the door you know let me know you know you're really smart and would be of value even on a you know part-time basis >> Dave how do you think about either matching offers or telling someone, you know, if it doesn't work out, you can come back. >> Well, I'm I'm fortunate. I haven't been in the position very often where I've had to make this kind of choice. But I' I've got a similar scenario that I've been thinking about because we're getting to the end of the year. And so, I've been doing some reading about different kinds of bonus plans because I'm thinking for 2026. And one of the ideas that I came across was the idea of a deferred bonus program. And the idea is that if certain goals are achieved, for example, in 2026, then a bonus is earned, but it's paid out over a couple of years. And so in order for the person to collect the entire bonus, they're they then have to be with the company. And the idea behind these plans is that you create these incentives for people to continue to be with you. But when I was thinking about it, I was just like, well, well then I'm encouraging people who may not be happy with their job to stay here just because of this money, which just, you know, reflects the comment we just heard. And so I'm curious to know what uh what Kate and Sarah think of that kind of idea or if they've ever thought of doing something like that. >> I would actually ask my HR person if you're allowed to do that. >> Yeah, you can. >> Okay. >> You can. Yeah, it's in in the US we we actually call it a long-term compensation plan. So, you actually and I I did this for my head of ops when I knew I was going to be exiting or I was planning on exiting. I was trying to figure out going and selling my company is probably going to take a little while. I want to make sure that he's kind of set and I'm not going to lose him because it would be kind of a little bit of a house in the cards. So it it kind of operates like if you have offer equity and you have a a vesting period. So but it's a little bit more real real than you know options and um the only problem and I'll defer back to Dave on this was I actually had to clean it up when I went to have my exit. So I cashed him out early. Fortunately he's remained on with me. >> Okay. We should point out you did not in fact go ahead and sell the company. Uh which you're still running. But but why did you have to clean it up? What do you mean by that? >> Well, I don't know. I I'll ask Dave. It just seemed like it was complicating things because that was one of the the pieces one of the interested parties wanted to know what sort of obligation we had. And so I put it out and he kind of winced at it. And then when we got closer to an actual real buyer, then I decided to go ahead and true him up. uh and that also just helped to the flow from looking at the exit holistically. >> You know, the the amount due to the employee would be it's it's a liability for the company. No question because it's something you may have to pay out. I would almost say that you could bring that to the deal table. you in the transaction, you could uh see if the if the buyer wanted to assume that liability, maybe it would mean there'd be an adjustment in the price, but it would it would put the new owner in the same position you were in with a little bit of an incentive plan already in place to keep that person around. >> Well, yeah, not to interrupt that, that was actually because I'm having to think back to it because it's been almost five years now, but the reason was we wanted to have retention bonuses. So, they were looking at it as a double retention for my head of ops and that's why we were looking at cleaning up because I really wanted to make sure that my key uh folks were going to be adequately compensated and had some golden handcuffs so I could have my earn out at the end. The way that my industry works is that there's really kind of only one way up the ladder and it eventually puts you in a position of, you know, VP and when you become a VP, there's a responsibility of bringing a new business to that. Um, and so we have a VP and she gets a baseline salary and then she gets a percentage added on to her salary for any new business that she brings in annually once she's met a minimum. And so she, you know, the earning potential for her is through the moon if she gets new business and then she continues to to build on that over the years. I have a young team, you know, like the average age is probably like 25. So I I do give out bonuses and usually they're I only give out bonuses to people that have been with me for minimum a year. And it's based on a little mathematical equation I created that is based on profitability, their performance, and uh uh you know, a couple other factors. and they're they're modest, but I didn't get bonuses until I was well into my 40s, if that. So, it's not really meant to be a long-term place to work. We're a stepping stone, and I I'm fine with that. Keeps my costs down, too. Although, I have to retrain people over and over again, which is exhausting. But, I at least I have a a layer of people now where I don't actually have to train people. I do go through the best practices because I like to do that and I'm always changing it. But uh yeah, I have people who train the people who train the people and we've done a lot of video recordings now. So like you have to sit there and watch these videos of me or somebody else on the team talking through how to do something and that's helped you know alleviate some of the the retraining. >> Dave, do you have an existing bonus program? >> Um this year we we brought in two bonus programs. one is a team bonus. So, it's a it's based on overall performance and and uh some goals for the company. And then my two employees that were were with me at the beginning of the year have their own individual bonus plans as well. U and then we've had a couple of people join us over the course of this year and they they have a a different kind of thing. Whenever I hire someone, I usually create a series of of sort of hurdles about their onboarding that sometimes takes a few months for them to complete. And each one is has a a pay raise attached to it. So the the reason why I'm kind of thinking about this now and preparing for it is uh for next year I'm going to have uh to create some kind of program for all four of them and I'm going to be reassessing what what I've done this year, what seems to work have worked or or not worked as well. Uh, and I'm just trying to explore different ideas. >> Kate, what kind of bonus plan do you have? >> Yeah, I have a a flat $5,000 bonus that we divide up quarterly, so it's only$1250 a quarter, but it's actually used from like a punitive perspective. >> Wait, you got to explain that. What's a punitive bonus? >> Yeah. It's it's put out there. If if they don't get that bonus, they're probably uh going to be let go. It basically is when uh the rare occasion I have a type of employee who is particular about what clients they take. Well, I can't have them being that way. Uh so if they throw a client, they intentionally ignore a particular client because they don't enjoy working with them. Well, I'm not going to give them their bonus or I'll reduce it. In 14 years, I I've only think I had to do it three times, but it's more for to make a point. Uh we also have what we call superersizing. So, if they go over uh a certain amount of hours in a quarter, then we'll give them a point uh for for every point that they go over, then we'll give them an extra 100 bucks. At one point I had one woman, she ended up in one quarter in combination with that $1,250. She ended up taking in $6500 just because she was kind of a workaholic and it was during COVID and she was like, I'll just work 60 hours. I have nothing else to do. We compensated her heavily for that. >> Hey, can I ask you a question? You mentioned about like an employee throwing. I think you used the term a client. >> Yeah. >> Like how do you how do you monitor that? Like, you know, I'm very aware of watching how my clients are relating to people on my team and how my team is relating to a client. You know, if I hear too much complaining about a client, I'm like, "Okay, we need to have a conversation about this because you're souring the water for the entire team." If they hear you, especially if you're at a a higher level, talking badly about a client. And I'm just curious, how do you make sure that they're not throwing work out the door? >> Yeah. Well, it's all because of our scorecards. So, we're tracking everything that they do. Like, it sounds like we're micromanaging, but we're not. Uh, it's just they have to be sourcing uh in order to get the lines in the water. We have to see them actually going and trying to recruit people. We have their pipeline report. So, it's all right there. And that's where the conversations come. >> Kate, I want to go back to that uh $5,000 a year bonus that you pay, which I think some would argue is is is not really a bonus um or potentially not an effective bonus in the sense that it's not a reward for performance. It's something that the employees are clearly, based on what you've told us, get used to and expect. They know that if they don't get it, that's a a bad sign. it, as you said, it's kind of a a punitive uh situation as opposed to a reward for uh for performance. Why did you structure it that way? And do you think it's uh been effective? >> So, I'll answer first that yes, it's been very effective uh because it really does quue people in if they're in a danger zone. I tell people when they get hired, expect this as long as you don't, you know, do something wrong. So, I I think it is very effective, >> but then it's not a bonus. It's just part of their compensation, right? >> Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. And I'm I'm super happy with that. And then I tend to do a lot of just random spot bonuses as well. Um because ultimately, when you when you look at the psychology of bonusing folks, it's more impactful to give people a bonus, a spot bonus, as opposed to giving them just a simple raise. the simple raise. It's sort of like what we were just discussing with a counter offer. You give somebody a raise because you think they're unhappy. They get the raise. Six weeks later, it does not change the job. And particularly the last few years, everything's been so unpredictable uh with the market. We have high high quarters and then we have had really low quarters. So, I'd rather do these spot bonuses as opposed to, you know, having to be forced into giving them raises all the time, like every year. So, that's been sort of my thought process around having it self police my team so I don't have to be micromanaging everything. And, uh, yeah, I've I've never gotten any real complaints about it. So just to be clear, so basically if they meet all of their KPIs for the year, they're automatically guaranteed this quarterly bonus. How when do they find out if they didn't meet their KPIs and and don't get that? Is it like at the end of the quarter? Like are they given warnings? >> We start the conversations right out of the gate when we start to see things start to split. I had one guy, he worked for me for about nine months and he was kind of a he was a bit of a train wreck and he he legit told us one of our best clients, he's like, "I just don't I just don't want to work with him." I'm like, "Okay, well, you do understand that's going to impact your bonus because now you're not even billing full-time. So when you're not billing, that means your overhead and I'm not going to have that, you know, impede my my company's performance. So therefore, it's going to come off of your your bonus. Are are you sure you're taking that stance? And uh it worked perfectly because it it forced the conversation and he was gone, I think, within another three weeks, which was perfect. And I didn't have to pay the bonus. >> Yeah. I was going to ask you whether or not has it ever not resulted in somebody's departure. Has anybody made it through the other side? >> Uh, no. >> No. >> Yeah. It's the same It's the same thing with like one of those performance review plans like Yeah. Yeah. I worked with companies that used to do that all the time. I always hated them because like >> because like nobody comes out the other side of that stuff. Well, I I will say because we have uh performance improvement plans that I put people on and those I have salvaged plenty of people. How we actually score people on our performance plans is based on our core values. They're sort of different from what we look at when we're tracking their their work dayto-day. So, it's that overall, is this the right employee? And when we've had challenges, it's usually because there's something happening outside of work that is taking them out of being a great employee. And it's those conversations, we get them back on track and they're off to the races. They're like, "Yeah, I was totally disengaged because I had this happening." >> I want to bring up a a related issue. Sarah was talking about uh managing the relationship between employees and clients. And this is actually something that has come up from time to time a little bit on this podcast, but we've never really addressed head-on. You all have businesses that serve clients. You all are very much involved in finding and enlisting those clients. I'm sure you all deal with clients occasionally who very much would like you to be the point person on all of their work, which I assume creates something of a dilemma for you. Uh, how do you scale your business if you have to be doing the client work? How do you guys think about this? >> Well, it it's interesting because a lot of our business comes to us because uh because I'm on YouTube and people tune into the channel and they they watch the videos and stuff and then they say, "Oh, I I want to work with this guy." And so that's the expectation very much is that they're reaching out to us because they want to work with us. And what we have had to do is had to we've had to very carefully curate and plan someone's journey about how they interact with the business. So when they first reach out and send an email or an inquiry, they're they're generally not going to get a response back from me. They're going to get a response back from our office manager u who's going to answer you know basic questions and tell them about the different products we have and then when they decide to move forward with something we have an email that's been created specifically to talk about people on the team so that there's there's very much the awareness on the part of the customer that there are other people working here. It's not just that they're hiring David for something. And our engagement agreement actually even has the biographies of all the all the analyst team members. So they can see the different backgrounds and qualifications of of the people on the team. Um but I am still involved in it. So we have a standing meeting that happens twice a week where we bring up the files, we discuss them all together. Um we all give feedback and input on each team member's files. So I am still involved and you know sometimes I'm actually there at the presentation meetings when we actually deliver the result to the client and and lately there have been more and more of them where I haven't been. And so it's it's really about creating that awareness like I think of people like Tony Robbins, right? Tony Robbins goes on stage in front of thousands of people and everyone knows that he's a coach, but nobody signs up for a coaching program from his company re thinking that they're going to spend time every week on the phone with Tony Robbins, right? And so I I try to think how did he get from where he started, which was probably at a place where he was coaching everybody to where he is now. And there's there's that progression where you have to change the way maybe that you present yourself to the world and let people understand when they're hiring you that they will not be dealing with you all the time. That that's the best way I've been able to figure it out. >> Has it worked for you, Dave? >> It seems to be working for me. I will say that the one thing that happens and it's it's funny to hear some uh some of the other people on the call say you know you have to keep you know CCing the alias email and stuff to bring the conversations together. What we find sometimes confusing is when the the client will reply to the analyst working on their file and then the the client will CC me and then I have to go and talk to the analyst to figure out which one of us is going to reply and and so it's it's a bit of a learning curve for me I think just as much as it is for the way we present ourselves to clients. >> That's just to me that's a big red flag if somebody like CC's me into a conversation I'm like something happened. Mom's getting a call. >> Yeah, mom. Mom will >> and and and that's and that's the that that's the the the learning curve that I'm on is when should I feel that way and when when should I know that it's just because the person is looking for interaction with me? >> Kate, has this been an issue for you? Initially years ago um when I first launched it was more of a problem and what we would do is um I would be sort of the face and then I'd start to introduce the resource and then I we call it backing out of the room slowly and we actually just uh one of the women on my team she just had to do this because we were putting her on one solid dedicated client and she had to pull herself out of two others. And she she actually did a beautiful job because she was really switching herself out. We had more problems there than people thinking that they're going to work with me because if they're going to work with me, it's going to cost them a boatload of cash and they don't want to necessarily do that. They just want the results. >> So, you're establishing that relationship right up front. Do they know your involvement based on the prices that you're quoting to them before they sign the contract? Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and they've been referred to us so they already know how we operate. Yeah. It's just it's just not become such a a huge point. I will have clients that, you know, they signed and they were like, "Well, just before we sign, can we actually talk to the person that's going to be working for us?" I I tend to roll my eyes at that because it's like, okay, well, it's not like you're going to be interviewing somebody. They're they're going to come on. They're going to do exactly what I just told you we're going to do, but if you need to, sure. Uh but that's why we're so specific on hiring to core values. So, when you work with anybody on my team, there's not a big swing in how they interact with people. >> Sarah, has this been an issue for you? >> So, yes and no. So I'm very conscious of that and um we right now we have 20 clients so I I obviously can't be on everything every time. So when I start with any new clients um I I make it during even the pitch call I'll be like so you know I will generally join every other call um just so I can make sure that you know I'm I'm adding value to the project. But I also tell clients like I'm looped in on everything. Like I'm on every alias. Um we have a Monday morning meeting where we go through all of our clients and everything that we're working on. So, you know, right now it's to a point where I still can I'm still air traffic controlling in terms of knowing what's going on. But I do do things where, you know, if I land something for a client or it's my relationship that got us something for a client, I generally will have somebody else deliver it to the client. So the client's going, "Oh, so and so, you know, it landed like is telling us about this." Like they don't need to hear from me anymore. So, the more that my team is providing them with value or good news or connections or ideas, the less they care about whether or not I'm there um on a call or involved. I think most of them know that I'm here in the background because I ch I chime in on stuff, too. And I think that most of our the businesses we work with get that like I've got a lot of things that I need to do, but I'm still watching what's happening. So, I have not had any clients that have been sticky on only wanting to work with me. I have had clients like really like working with a particular person on my team, but when we bring new clients in, I'm like, listen, I build your team based on the current demands of what we're doing, you know? So, if we're not doing influencers, I'm going to take so and so off your team. And if we're doing more social media content creation, I'm going to put more people from that team um on your team. Like, we're not going to just give you a team and say, "There you go." It it's going to be customized to what the priorities are for your your your business. >> I think clients tend to have less of an issue. I think it's the founder that ends up having more of an issue of letting go of being in the trenches. >> And I I I you know chair an accelerator program, the EOS's accelerator program, and talking to people like we do this and a lot of people start out fractionally and they're in it and they get this dopamine rush because they're able to work with the client, see the success that they're doing for the client, and then they're going to take that and give it to somebody else. Delegation is a big issue. Like it doesn't matter if you're the CEO or junior level person. I have a a couple people on my team where like I'm like you have people that you can delegate to. I literally had a conversation with somebody the other day and I was like if I f like I can't have you doing anything admin like you cost me way too much money. Don't do that. Like like delegate that. And like my social team, they were like, "Okay, we're on the cusp of needing to hire somebody." I'm like, "That's great." I'm like, "You need to sit down and tell me what are the things that you shouldn't be doing or the things that you're terrible at and that's the person that we're going to find to hire." Right? My whole thing with my team is that like if you have somebody underneath you in reporting to you, your whole job is delegating your way out of a job. So that way the person above you is delegating their way out of a job. And so there's always this kind of flow and it's hard with some people. Oh, it's so hard. >> Kate, I heard what you said about the the real issue frequently being that the founder just can't let go of the work and it it's more of a problem with them than it is with the client. But I have to say I found this to be a very common complaint among business owners. And I'm wondering how you guys deal with it when you're on the other side of the equation. I hear from owners all the time saying things like, you know, when you try to hire a marketing agency, you get the big guns who come out and they pitch you, but the moment you sign on, you're given an intern. How do you deal with that when you're on the other side? >> For myself, like I >> Yeah. >> I mean, I would anticipate a a good business is going to know how to manage their resources appropriately. So, I I don't think I've been in a situation where I had to really worry about getting the intern or the lackey. >> That's one thing that I would recommend if anybody is ever looking at a service agency to do work for them. When you're on the pitch call with them, ask that question. Who is my team? Are the people on this call my team? They should be able to answer that like immediately. It' be able to say these are the people that will be working on your project. That should be part of the process. And you can even you know say listen on the pitch in the RFP when you send it to the company I want to know exactly who will be working on my account. And that way you have visibility into it. And and because honestly like if if a if a an agency can give you the same level and quality of services but have lower level people doing it, they're going to do it because they're going to use their heavy hitters on other stuff. So sometimes the the work doesn't need somebody who's a director and a VP level >> and you know people buy process. So you if you can show the client what the process or the tool is that's going to be applied to their situation and how you've been able to create somewhat of a systematized methodology of how you've trained your staff and that this is you know either created by you as the founder or endorsed by you or or or whatnot. That gives people great comfort. I mean, people walk into McDonald's locations they've never been in before, and the reason they do that is because they're already confident. They know what the Big Mac is going to taste like because they they believe that the system is robust there for making Big Macs, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. And you have to do it gradually, you know, like get your client, from my perspective, get your client to trust the person that you're letting do the work, right? It doesn't have to be like, "Hey, so and so is going to do all be your point of contact and I'm not doing anything anymore." like it can be a a gradual transition where you stay with it until you're like, you know what, the client kind of loves you and we're good to go and I'm going to just be in the background if you need me. >> Dave, has this been an issue for you much uh in terms of dealing with vendors that you hire? >> Gez. Um, no it hasn't. I have hired some people that have very clearly presented themselves as sort of solo operators that they're the people who are going to be serving me and and that's exactly how it's how it's played out. But, you know, back to the, you know, expectation setting, I think in in other circumstances, it was clear when I was getting involved with a vendor that they were a team and there were other people involved. Um, and I I knew that from the outset. that that's kind of the example I've been trying to follow in my business of showing people as soon as they start engaging to hire us that that it isn't just me. There's a team here. >> So, Lauren, you know, I I hire outside resources as well and I was having a conversation just yesterday with uh a technical firm to do some work. lovely conversation with the lead person, but my question was, "Okay, if we work with you, who's going to be the person that we're going to work with?" I asked questions like, "Where are they based? Do you have anybody on the West Coast?" Cuz we're on the West Coast. And I was like, "Do you have anybody's who's a woman?" My whole team is female. Not by design, but just happen stance. all the sudden having some random engineering guy from Poland might be a little bit weird if they just start popping up on calls. So I like want to ask the question of like do I have options in terms of having a conversation with the person whoever it is just to make sure that they're going to be a right fit for our company vibe. Like I feel like I can do that if I'm paying them. >> And how did they respond? Well, they responded to say that like it would be somebody probably in Poland um and that she would put in a request for um me to to have that option of of selecting the right fit. So, I will follow up on that because that's important. like our calls, our relationships with our clients is pretty intimate and like I can't just have some random person who has never met just start joining things. So I need to sit back and reconsider that. So maybe it's less about having them join the calls and more about like just being a resource for us for the team and then going from there. But yeah, it's just something to think about like I have to make sure that whatever I do is not going to be disruptive to my client experience. >> All right. Well, since I'm interested in retaining all of your services long term, >> you're all getting bonuses this year. Uh, but for now, my thanks to David Barnett, Kate Morgan, and Sarah Seagull. Thanks for sharing, guys. One thing before you go, everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd, or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum, where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. You can sign up for both by subscribing to the morning report. If you have any questions, you can email me at lauren@21hats.com. And if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report, please tell a friend, tell an enemy, tell every business owner you know. Your word of mouth owner to owner will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us. Thank you. It means a lot. This episode was produced by another entrepreneur, Jess Stubberon, founder of Blank Word Productions. Thanks for listening, everyone. [Music]