EP16 – ESOP Politics – discussion with Renee Lewis from Holland and Knight – Chicago, IL

Welcome back. Thanks for tuning in. I'm the ESOP guy and we are on this journey to an ESOP. This podcast is a podcast that's been produced to really try to help people understand better an employee stock ownership plan and how it might benefit their business succession and exit plan. Um, the podcast has been going on for about 1 year. We're in our season 2, and if you have an interest in this episode or or other episodes, please go to our website at journey to an ESOP.com. Also, I wanted to announce the ESOP Guy live webinar series that we've been doing. Uh, we have our second coming up April 28th on ESOP valuation at 2 o'clock Eastern time. You can register for that as well on the journey to an ESOP.com website. But today, as we start, I wanted to, to, to bridge into a new topic. Um, this one's gonna be called How does the new Administration at the White House affect the future of ESOPs. And to do that, I had the opportunity to interview Renee Lewis with Holland and Knight out of Chicago, Illinois. Um, in fact, this is Renee's 2nd time on the podcast, so I'm excited to have her back. Renee, welcome back to our podcast. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be back here talking to you about Epo. Excellent. So, um, as we kind of get into this topic, one of the questions I get from clients, and it's kind of shocking sometimes because they don't really, they, they start to really start to understand ESOPs, um, but they, they ask these questions because they're trying to figure out how the government really does support it when they, when the government is going to agree to give up tax revenue on ESOPs, particularly for S corporations, along with other tax benefits. So, I usually say, you know, um, what, what I usually talk about is how interesting it is for both parties, um, when we talk about Republicans and Democrats, they actually agree on, on this one topic and, and provide support for the ESOP, you know, the, the, the kind of ESOPs or having support for ESOPs in general. Um, when you get this, how would you address that question as to why is our government so friendly towards ESOPs? Sure, I, you know, I, I think that's a great question. I've, I've gotten that question before, and um what I can say is that ESOs are definitely bipartisan. Um, we have both Democrat and Republican support for, I think, one of the few things left that is bipartisan, but um. I think the benefits of ESOPs outweigh any of the potential lost tax revenue, and there's data out there that really proves these benefits. There's a number of studies that show ESOP companies outperform non-ESOP companies in terms of revenue and employee productivity. Uh, turnover is less and job satisfaction is greater among employee owners versus employees of non-ESOP owned companies. Um, also, employees working for an ESOP company have nearly twice the average total retirement savings of Americans who work at non-ESOP companies. And that's impactful and meaningful, um, and the uh representatives in Congress, you know, they, they, they're taking notice of that and, and they understand those benefits. Um, also during the Great Recession, you know, EU companies. had less defaults on their debt, and they laid off less employees, which is good for the overall economy. And during this current pandemic, um, ESO companies have drastically outperformed non-ESOP companies. You know, um, there's been a, a recent study of By Rutgers Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and profit sharing, um, in partnership with the Employee Ownership Foundation, that, um, during the pandemic, they outperformed non-ASU companies by a rate of 4 to 1. Um, the report also showed that the majority of the ESA owned companies experienced average job losses of 4.8%, while all these other firms suffered average job losses of 19.5%. You know, that really speaks to the culture of ESOP companies. Um, the employee owners really do pull together in tough times. Oh yeah, um. And I think, you know, some of the other key findings, like during the pandemic, which I just don't think is surprising for those that, that work with these companies, and that's, you know, 3 to 4 times they were more likely to retain their non-manager, manager employees. Uh, they retain more of their staff, they're, uh, less significantly less likely to reduce hours and pay, you know, we saw this during the Great Recession as well, so it wasn't surprising that this is kind of how they pulled together during the pandemic. You know, and ESOPs can, can help address a lot of the concerns that we have in, in the country right now about, you know, income and wealth inequality, economic growth and job expansion. So they um they benefit the owners, the workers, and the community. You know, and there's no data that really shows that, and I believe that's why that, you know, the tax benefits remain for ESOP. Oh yeah, I, I, I think that part, like, as you said, one of the, one of the issues that I see, and I don't know if you see this, but Um, a lot of businesses are still dealing with such a tight labor market and having that ability to, to retain key people, um, to me it's not as much of a political issue, but when you start thinking about the, the success of businesses and continuing on in a, in a tight labor market, um, holding on to employees is a, is a major business issue that I think is just very important to consider um that ESOPs are in a better position to do that. Certainly, and I mean, as I said, there's the data that's showing that, and you know, the jobs, remember the jobs are staying there, they're in the community, they're not leaving, you know, that's really important. Um, it's really closing, I think, a gap on the, the, the income inequality. Quality, um, some security for retirement. I mean, it just answers a lot of the key questions and, and issues that I think we're dealing with today. Yeah. I've also noticed and I've done another podcast on this is how the impact for ESOPs are for smaller communities, you know, large cities, it probably isn't as big of a deal, but for a small town that has an ESOP company, those jobs are very important and those companies that transact and they sell off to You know, a strategic buyer that those jobs sometimes are in jeopardy and so communities themselves can have some major impacts if those big companies, you know, large employers start to relocate because strategic buyer comes in and, and just does that. So politically speaking, I think that's a very popular thing to understand that this really does strengthen smaller towns, smaller communities across the United States. Most definitely, and that's actually what, I mean, that's often a reason why sellers are going to sell to the EPA. I mean there's lots of reasons, there's tax benefits and, and um there's their culture and legacy, but Um, you know, I've known business owners that the reason that they sold was, um, they wanted those jobs to remain in the community. You know, their, their, their company had been such a large part of that community, you know, they raised their families there, they know these families. I mean, so selling to a strategic partner or to a private equity that just didn't sit well with them. No, no. So, so from a political standpoint, um, and we're thinking about our ESOP world, it really depends on legislation as, and, and the whole thing kind of was created through legislation, um, which makes the tax privileges, you know, really possible. How does the ESOP community really represent itself when we talk about the political landscape in Washington? Um, is there a political action committee? Is there, is there a lobby group and, um, and how does that function? Sure. So, so when the EA community, as you probably know, it's a pretty small community, um, so everybody, a lot of people work together, they know each other, they work on the, you know, deals, uh, throughout their careers with the, with service providers and um There's a number of organizations that really help with the advocacy of this piece of trying to promote more ESOPs in America. The ESAP Association is one ESCA, which is employee owned Corporations of America, and the NCO, which is the National Center of. Employee ownership. Those are 3 organizations that are very active in the ESOP community and for advocating for ESOP in Washington, as well as locally. Um, there's also, uh, the Employee Ownership Expansion Network, which is a national nonprofit, and their focus though is on expanding employee ownership across America by establishing independent state centers. Um, that could then help, um, kind of within that state, right, grow that ESOPs. Um, and some states also have commissions in place to expand employee ownership within their states. Um, and we're definitely seeing more states take actions to help promote that, um, one such state like Colorado comes to mind, like they have a commission, you know, their governor is very pro ESOP, um, so you'll often see it at the local level as well as kind of national level. Um. The EAP Association, they have an annual national conference that will typically takes place in May. This year it's going to be a hybrid conference due to COVID that'll be held in June. And during this conference, the ESOP community has an advocacy day or days where they meet with their congressional representatives. Um, so for a number of years, Um, I've had the opportunity to visit my congressional representative, and I'm joined by members of the ESA community and employee owners from Illinois. Um, and it's a wonderful experience. And if anyone has had, you know, has an opportunity to do this, um, they, they definitely should. It's really, um, you know, it's something to be able to walk into your representative's office and discuss what's, um, important to you. And, you know, you don't get to do that in a lot of countries, and we can do that here. Um, and so when we go in there, you know, we'll talk to the members of Congress and or their aides, and, and one, it's a lot of educating them on ESOPs, you know, if they don't know about ESOPs, and then we stress the importance of ESOPs and the positive impact that they have on employee owners and the community. Um, I'm happy to say that in the, the past couple of years, I've done that, I think I see. The more I go, the more that they're like, yes, we know what an EAP is, and then you get to kind of stress the importance, right? So there's still often you'll get a new person in and you have to explain it, but, um, I definitely have gone back to some of our representatives and, and they're familiar already, you know, they know either ESOP companies in that, in their districts, they've maybe gone out there and met those EAP companies, um, or they remember us from like a prior year, you know, so that's always, um. That's great when they, when they tell us that they, oh we know what an ESOP is and they don't say, oh what's an ESOP, right? So, um, and so that's that's kind of uh the joke, right? But, um, but, but listening, so what's really important. So I think is and those meetings are um listening to the employee owners talk about what their company's eat up has meant that the future, the to their future, to the company, to the community, it's very powerful for those representatives to hear that, you know, these stories um. Stay with those representatives and you know, and these aren't, and this goes back to this is bipartisan. This isn't a Republican story or a Democratic story. It's truly these are American stories. These are constituents telling their representatives that being a part of an ESOP has allowed them, you know, the security to know that they can retire, you know, one day, has resulted in their company, um, increasing revenue, productivity, allowed company and the jobs to stay in a community. And um and it's, it's, it's just a really um impactful um and I think a really important part of, of promoting ESOPs and advocacy that needs to, we need to do that, you know, because we need to make sure that Congress um keeps ESOPs in front and center in their mind, um, and that they don't, um. You know, vote on legislation that would somehow take away any of these benefits. Um, and so it's, it's something that we do every year and, and that the ESOP Association, you know, does all year long, but, um, you know, we, I go up to the hill once a year to, to do kind of my part on that, um, you know, and, and we'll encourage the congressional members to go visit their ESOP companies in their districts, you know, and we help set that up if necessary. um. There's a lot that these organizations do. Um, the ESOP Association also just formed two new councils, and one is a public policy council, and that's gonna be um working with formulating public policy positions for the ESOP Association and it's um like legislative and regulatory priorities, and also a corporate council, which will be made up of ESOP companies that will work with the association on um. Kind of strategizing what's important. And so that's, that's great that they're kind of um uh doing this, and this is kind of a new initiative that they're taking on. Um, FCAT is another organization and that's really a voice for employee owned corporations. So that uh ESCA represents, I think, more than 215,000 employee owners in virtually every state. And their mission is to protect the S corporation EO structure and promote it so that more Americans can become employee owners, and they do a really excellent job at helping members post what they call district visits, um, and this is where members of Congress will visit an employee owner at their office or at their job sites, and, um, these visits are really impactful because, um, The representatives get to really see um firsthand, uh, the impact of, of being part of an employee-owned company is, right? They're seeing how these workers work, they're talking to the workers um who can then tell the representatives, you know, what the, what this means to them. And, and they get to tell their story and really what makes an EAP company. you know, unique and different, um, and, and so those are, um, and ESA does a really great job at helping those members kind of do that. And the more of this that happens, the more the congressional representatives, nobody thought they understand it, they understand the benefits, they understand the amount of their constituents that are impacted by this. Uh, which is key, which is really important, um, you know, ECI can also help with like organizing like regional district, um, visits, which would maybe mean if you had a number of EA companies in that district, maybe they'd all meet, you know, a number of the representatives would meet there to meet with congres, you know, with their congressional representative, um, and that would, you know, that could certainly be really impactful, right, if the Representative walked in and oh jeez, I have 4 different companies here that are ESOP companies and employ X amount of employees in my district, right? So, so those are things that, um, that some of these organizations, what they can do to help. Um, the NCO is another one that, um, you know, they support employee ownership since 1981 and, and theirs is a broad-based, so not only ESOPs but also um. Uh, equity compensation plans, worker co-ops, so they're just really trying to, um, To help there be more broad-based employee ownership in the in the country, um, and then there's also PACs at ESA and ESOP Association that as members we donate to to kind of help, you know, promote the advocacy. um, I can't say enough about it, it's really important, um, we need to make sure that we're, we're, um. That we are advocating for EOC, um, you know, so that they continue yep, it has to be front and center. Keeping it out there. So that's a lot. There's a lot going on, which is great. Um, 11 thought or question I had when you were going through that whole list is it kind of like is it seems like the, and I've been up there too for other issues to talk to congressmen and different things. But it seems like that it's the main issue or agenda is let's keep them to be, let's keep Congress aware of of ESOPs and understand them. Do you know if there's like anything going on when it comes to um expanding some of the, some of the tax benefits of an ESOP, so. Potentially maybe you know, S corps utilizing a 1042 or you know, more exemptions related to that. Do you know if we're on the Yeah, so every year it gets reintroduced. There's legislation that would expand the 1042 to corporation, um, and every year we get or every, you know, congressional, um. Uh, every Congress, uh, so like the 116th Congress was what, 2019, 2020. So that legislation was introduced to expand the 1042 to us corporations, um. And then we talk to Congress when we go up there to make sure that they, you know, sign on, and, and we do, we get bipartisan support on that. Um, that legislation will be um reintroduced, I imagine in this next Congress, um, we need it to attach to a tax bill. Um, so it's been in Congress for a number of years now. Um, but my understanding of how it's been explained to me is that it really, it's unlikely to get passed unless it's attached to a tax bill. And now, I know there's a lot of tax reform potentially. Coming, um, so we'll have to kind of wait and see, you know, where that kind of heads. Yeah, well, there's the, I mean, that's definitely on everybody's mind is what is the tax reform coming. And even, and even because of that, the issue is and going into the 1042 is, is the, is the capital gains tax rates, um, you know, if they're going to go up. Um, and I say if, I think a lot of people think that it's definitely gonna happen, but either way, that would make this as corporation 1042 issue, you know, even more appropriate to really consider. Um, hopefully, hopefully, and I, I, I do think that um it's in everybody's best interest. Honestly, as much as um the government needs our money for taxes and all that, but um having that as another aspect of ESOPs would be, would be definitely a good thing because it, it really doesn't make any sense that an S corp can't use the 1042 when a Corp can and it's just that's all, that's all politics. Right, and it, and it, and like I said, we've gotten bipartisan support on that bill, which has pretty much been the same bill over and over again. Each Congress, you know, it has to get reintroduced, um. And um and so I, I don't think it would, I personally don't think there'd be too much difficulty in getting it passed, but um. But again, it'll have to attach and it's gonna be part of of such a broader um changes, so we'll have to kind of wait and see but again it's EEPs have been definitely um just being discussed more um. You know, so I, I, I think it's important that we keep, you know, we keep talking about it, and we keep making sure that one, they don't, we'd love to see the expansion of the 1042, but what we don't want also to happen is that they change anything that we currently have. So, so when we go out there we. We do talk. We always talk about the current legislation and we'll, you know, ask for their support for that. But then we also want to make sure they understand all these really, you know, great benefits and, and how well the EA companies are doing so that they don't, um, do something to kind of screw that up. Yeah, no, for sure, yeah, so yeah, definitely have to be continually saying, you know, the message of how wonderful these dogs are, so. Um, so now we kind of move into 11 thought is, is probably on everybody's mind is we have a new administration in the White House, uh, new president, lots of changes in Congress. What, what are your thoughts about all the changes when it comes to, uh, the new people there in terms of their thought process with the ESOP? Is it good? Is it bad? What do you think? Yeah, so I, I'm gonna go with good. Um, I think, you know, the stars are kind of aligned right now. I think you have a moment in, in time where, um, ESOP awareness is, um, there's a lot of that right now. So the ESO community has been educating people on ESOP for decades. You know, I, I definitely feel a shift. And that I think more people definitely are more aware and knowledgeable on ESOPs than they were, say, 10, 5 years ago, right? So, I think that benefit of that education is kind of starting to pay off. I feel like there's definitely more awareness, um. And there's, there's significant data out there that, um, that we've talked about that proves that many of these ESOP, um, in the, many in the ESOP community have known that the ESOP um benefits owners and workers and communities, right? It's going to provide this retirement security, job stability, increased employee productivity, which leads to increased revenue, you know, all of which address many of these issues that we're facing the country. You know, so I think um when you look at the issues we have, that ESOP can solve some of those, right? And so we're talking a lot about these issues. Um, and then I think within the You know, the sellers, I mean, we've always, we've been talking about this baby boom, you know, tsunami, um, of retirement for so long, silver tsunami for a really long time, but, but eventually they have to, they have to retire, um, and they need to, you know, they may not have kids that want to take it over or family and there may not be a third party strategic buyer, so, you know, and ESOP makes a lot of sense. And right now, um. You know, I think valuations are up for a lot of companies, and there is financing available. Um, we've definitely seen like an uptick in the M&A deals and, and that goes to Bops as well. Um, so I think, um, you know, that helps, as well as now these proposed tax changes that Biden, um, Has suggested which would increase the capital gains tax as well as potentially increasing the corporate income tax. I think both of those also will drive some sellers to really consider selling now, right, so that they don't have to pay the increase in capital gains and in connection with that increase in the corporate income tax, you know, when that income tax increases that potentially gonna. Lower some valuation. So, um, I think a lot of folks are thinking, jeez, I wanna, I wanna, you know, I've been thinking about this, this is a good time to do it, right? Um. And so I think, and then there's the ease of champion, which we can talk a little bit about, that are in the Biden administration, as well as, as we said, the support we have in Congress, right? So I think the combination of Increased knowledge on ESOP, significant data showing the benefits of ESO, the need to close the gap on income inequality and grow the economy, and then the pro ESOP people in leadership positions in the government. I personally think it's only positive for the ESOP community and will lead to a number of new transactions. Which, which I think is good as well. Um, when we, when we get into the, the, a little deeper then there was an article that the NCEO put out recently, um, the headline was Biden Choos ESOP Friendly Advisors, um, really referencing the appointment of Jared Bernstein to the Council of Economic Advisors. The article points out the pro ESOP and positive opinions of Employee ownership. Um, so, obviously, that's good. How might this positively influence the opportunities for ESOPs when we think about this, um, these appointments? Well, I, I, I think it can only help, right, that there's ESAP champion in the administration, right? So Jared Bernstein, um, he's been actually a longtime supporter of ESAP. So, um, he's done two studies. Um, one, he wrote prior to his appointment, um, and it was a, a, a study commissioned by ESCA that was why aren't there more assessing barriers to ESOP creation. Um, the study is definitely worth reading for anyone interested in ESOP. Um, But what he does is he looks at why there aren't more, uh, and how we can address that. And I think any of us in the subcomm, we, I've done this for 20 years, and I often ask, you know, why there should be more, and it is, it is awareness, it is education. And, and, and he discusses that, you know, that he thinks one of the most frequent barriers is the um is the awareness, making sure these owners know about this and educating people on ASO. And I think the sub community would agree, you know, this is, I think a lot of our job is, is educating um people on ESOs and making sure that You know, if you're gonna sell your company, you, these are what you, this is what you can do, and ESOP should at least be on your list to look at, you know, it, it isn't necessarily for every company, but, you know, all we've ever wanted to see is that at least people are considering it, and if it's viable, you take a look at it and see if it works. Um. You know, he's suggesting also in that study that um there'd be a government office, you know, maybe in the Small Business Administration or the Commerce Department, that it would be set up to provide assistance to small businesses that want to set up EAP. Um, they can educate sellers on the pros and the cons. They can provide a referral source, right, for who to, you know, who to go to for to assist with, you know, adopting it and doing the transaction and helping, um. And you know, this would be kind of a compliment to what the NCO ESOP Association and ASCA are doing, right? Um. You know, it would just be helping, um, advocate for more ESOP, and you would get that support at the federal level, which I think would be, I think it would be great um to have ESA champion um in leadership roles. It, it can't hurt, certainly, I think. Um, there's also a few other people that um Biden has, has appointed that um have expressed support for ESOP. One is uh Marty Walsh, who's the um Former mayor of Boston and now he's the US Secretary of Labor, and then Isabel Guzman, who is serving as the administrator of the Small Business Small Business Administration. Um, they're both aware of ESOPs and their benefits. Um, when Marty Walsh was mayor of Boston, um, Harpoon Brewery is Boston-based, so he had visited Harpoon Brewery. He really, um, learned about EA, um. Appreciated them and and really wanted to kind of promote those in in Boston. And then Isabel Guzman has gone on record stating that Eubs can help keep businesses continue, which might otherwise close when the baby boomers retire. And I think the FBA can play a big role in educating business owners. On the benefits of ESOP, you know, um, so I mean, um, you hear you have somebody who's going to, you know, administer the FBA who's the pro ESOP champion. So, um, I, I think that's only gonna be all, uh, positive, right? That there's ESA champions and leadership positions within the administration. You know, I think, um, we'll see more ESOP, um, more American workers become employee owned. I mean, I think the more we've kind of spread the word on that, um. I think we'll just be more, more. Yeah, well, I think that and that, you know, first off, like that's the point of the podcast itself is having more awareness. Um, I don't, I think that there's a lot of information out there for ESOP, so I think the NCEO does a great job, the ESOP Associate Association does a great job. Um, EOX does a great job. We talked about them. Um, and I, and I, I think that there, the thing I noticed, and it's funny too, cause I, what I, I work in this like every day, right? And I find that there's so many people, um, You know, in the professional world that don't understand ESOPs and, you know, and it's like, and because they don't understand ESOPs, they're not really advising their clients in that direction. And I've had, I had this one client where we've worked through um the you know the very beginning steps of going through the ESOP process of feasibility and um I think I spent probably 2 weeks working through most of their advisors that they had to really get them up to speed. Um, to make sure that, you know, they were all on board. And so, and really, not, not that they weren't they weren't really negative about this, they just didn't have enough information. So, you know, professional community wise, I think definitely there's more work to be done there across the US, um, and I'm, and I'm not saying that it's for everybody, but I am saying that as an advisor, you know, whether you're a CPA, an attorney or a banker, um, You know, or insurance person, I mean, I think it's definitely something that you should, you should have a good understanding of, um, you know, Renee touched on the trend that's gonna happen is gonna be real and more and more business owners as they get into that, you know, next 10 years are gonna be looking for viable options and, you know, clearly it's a viable option that, you know, You should, you should at least know enough to be able to direct them in the right way and not just say, well, it's not, you know, ESO's too complicated or, you know, how many different misconceptions are right? Well, and I think it's, it's you're not doing, you're not doing yourself or your client any good by not giving them all the information they need, right? And so, I mean, I think they um. I, I think you want to make sure and educate yourself. I, you know, I, I have run into where um You know, I work on the transaction side, right, so we get contacted to do the deals. I don't, and I don't have a day to day relationship though with like business owners, um, so accounting firms, you know, they're talking to business owners regularly, um, in the law firms maybe our, our, um, like wealth or estate planning, you know, they may have more of a one on one with business owners. So I know just within our, our firm, you know, we do internal training, you know, on ESOPs, um, pretty regularly, right? Because you have, you have enough turnover, you know, that, oh jeez, we did that same thing 6 months, 9 months ago, let's just do it again, you know, we have new, new attorneys working here, and they may not know what an ESOP is, right? So, you know, we're constantly educating just within our own, you know, firm and we have a, a, a pretty large ESOP practice um. But um, you know, we'll find someone saying oh jeez, I didn't know, you know, really we, we've been talking about it, right? So I mean there's always gonna be someone, yeah, so um I think um. I think, I think accounting firms have definitely, I found it to be sometimes harder with some of the accounting firms to get them to um To really think like, hey, this is, this is good, you know, and, and you're not gonna lose your client, you know, you're gonna keep your client and, you know, it's gonna be, it could be a great thing for them. Um, but I, I, I think people just sometimes, you know, they don't, they don't know enough on it and so they don't wanna do something new maybe or open the door or they've heard a horror story or whatever it is, but um there's Education is key. Um, I, I feel like it's definitely there's more awareness now, but for sure, this has to continue, you know, just like the advocacy. I mean, you have to just keep at it, um, because there can definitely, there should be more. There really should be more, um, in this country, and I think it'll, I think we will see it, um. Um, and I, I have a really good feeling about, um, really the future because, because of really what we talked about. I think kind of the, everything's kind of aligning where we as a country, we have to deal with some of these issues. Um, we really, I mean, we have to address it. Um. And ASOs really kind of solve, you know, they solve for a lot of the companies, a lot of what we're talking about. Like they solve problems on every side. So the selling shareholder, the employees, um, what's going to happen to the company, these communities. I mean, it's just, you know, and it is definitely something that, that's why I kind of tying it back to the political environment. Um, being such a positive place and we kind of led off with this, it's like having bipartisan support is really probably, and we were talking about this earlier, um, before the call, but it's probably one of the last remaining areas politically that there's, there's support on both sides really is, I mean. Yeah, I mean, it's, it helps, it helps, right? It helps businesses and it's helping the workers. I mean, it, it, it really does, um, it helps both and, um, and I think it helps the country and, um, the data is there. I mean, it really is, so, um. I think our representatives need to read that data, you know, we need to keep at it at them to make sure they understand it and they're paying attention and um they're saying that this is something that could really um benefit a lot of people and solve a lot of the issues that we're seeing today. Yeah. So, so kind of to wrap it all up, I, I just wanted to kind of final comments on my side would just be, you know, first off, thank you, Renee, for the, the podcast and thank you for your work and going to Congress and doing that. I, I, I've done it before too and it's like, it's a long process, you're coming out of your busy schedule, you know, you're really volunteering your time, so thank you for doing that and Um, and I know for every, everybody that does that, I just say thank you because it's definitely necessary for, for us to continually make Congress and in Washington aware of what's happening, you know, in the country. That's, I think that's on us as, as, as leaders and I think also ease up companies that go, I, I'd say there, I appreciate their efforts as well, um, because it definitely it's good for the, it's good for the country and it's gonna be good for us going forward long term as well. Definitely. Definitely. Well, thanks for having me on here and, you know, what you're doing is great because you are spreading the word of ESAP. So anyone listening, you know, listen to your other podcasts, you know, reach out to the ESOP Association, ESA NCO, the Employee Exchange, um, Ownership Exchange, any of those organizations, um, for resources on, on how you can um learn more about EA. Great. So, um, as we close out, I just want to remind everybody, if you like the podcast, please subscribe, um, share it with a friend if you think it might be helpful. Have a great day and we'll look forward to our next step on this journey. And he