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Summary of Podcast on EP24 - Potential issues for ESOPs during recessionary times with Michael Miller - ESOP Trustee. - The Grid Wiki

EP24 - Potential issues for ESOPs during recessionary times with Michael Miller - ESOP Trustee.

Journey to an ESOP & Beyond

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| August 18, 2022

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The economy is difficult to predict but if we have a downturn how will that affect your ESOP? This episode provides a good overview for both companies moving into ESOP and those existing ESOPs as it relates to working through potential issues of a downturn with seasoned expert ESOPs trustee and benefit plans - Michael Miller.

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Welcome everybody this is the ESOP guy and we are on a journey to an ESOP so if this is your very first time tuning into this podcast,  it is really been designed as a resource for folks that are thinking about.  Jumping in to the deep end and becoming an ESOP company and Employee Stock ownership plan company.  And so there are people that continue to follow the podcast I want to say thank you guys so much but if it's if you're new to the podcast you can find all of our episodes on journey to an ESOP.com.  Or you can go on YouTube we have a YouTube channel just put in there at the ESOP guy and so again thank you for joining us today today I wanted to kind of start off with,  a lot of what's happening and rumbling through the the news which is you know really talking about the potential of a recession so this to the topic today is going to be.    [1:01] ESOP during a recession reading an article just came out yesterday from Kiplinger the US gross domestic product contracted about.  Point nine percent in the second quarter following a decline of 1.6% in q1 so effectively they're saying the economy is shrinking a little bit in the United States and there's been a lot of discussion and specially because the the stock market's been on a roller coaster.  Going you know certainly down over the first six months coming back up you know recently,  the economy is a weird like that too because we're also seeing you know a lot of different data related to the labor market,  and so the economy really created 2.7 million jobs in the first half of 22,  and really an ultra low unemployment rate of 3.6% so it's it's just a weird a weird thing and I don't think anybody knows for sure of course when it comes to.  Economists and the economy and people predicting what's going to happen I don't nobody really knows but but there are Trends and there's there's issues and I think when you think about an ESOP,  transaction or an existing ESOP company,  it's really it's very important to really kind of identify what you know what the different landscape of a potential recession looks like as it applies to,  you moving into an ESOP so to get some perspective on this topic we're going we're going to be joined today by ESOP trustee and Veteran pension expert Michael Miller.    [2:26] Michael owns Apex pension strategies and it's been really a great asset to the ESOP space and even just for me personally working,  with things Michael's been a great resource in terms of questions and certainly we've done we've done some transaction work together too so,  but he's just a good friend as well so I just wanted to kind of Welcome Michael to our podcast today.    [2:52] So thanks Phil it's appreciate I appreciate being here and I love being able to talk about Aesop's it's really a big part of what I do every single day awesome.  So did get started Michael one of the things I was going to ask you just completely off topic is what because I do so many movie type of themes what is your favorite all-time movie and and just yeah and just kind of get kind of go from there.    [3:20] You know like that that's a hard question I think that there's there's.    [3:27] Three categories what is the old classic movies,  and I'm really a big fan of movies like The Dirty Dozen and and that group of those were so many stars beginning of their career and it was just a fantastic movie,  when I was a kid and through my adult years all of the the Star Trek I start the Star Wars movies,  does that series of nine I think attracted me because I was I think I was about 11 years old when the first one came out,  and I don't get into all of the side things with the cartoons and that sort of thing sure,  and then and then more recently in the new movies I really enjoyed going to see Top Gun happened to you was the great sequel awesome yeah,  I love I love Star Wars 2 and I was kid I do have you watched all the recent ones that well the newer ones to finish continue to go through the Saga.    [4:26] I watch the ball yeah three times cool that's awesome I like I like the original you know I don't know it's you call them the first movies or the middle and fizzy before 5:00 and 6:00 but.  But yeah I've watched those two most of those probably of the of the trilogy that was probably my favorite three it's awesome well cool well,  and again when we think about this topic of course you know it doesn't doesn't apply to the recession idea but the same time it really is helpful to get to know you a bit better,  when we say recession I know I know all sorts of things come to mind and.    [5:02] You know I go back immediately to like the 2008-2009 time period I know that some people that maybe had just started working the last five years or whatever maybe maybe they haven't experienced anything you know as far as recession goes,  I know that some of my clients get a little bit like nervous when it comes to if I'm going to do a transaction you know what's this going to look like because it's kind of a very uncertain time period as we as we look at.  Where would you say just kind of in general from your research and just looking at what you do where do you think the economy is from your perspective.    [5:37] You know it's mixed this is a different kind of recession you know 08 and 09 because that I've been doing this since the late 80s,  and so I've seen the ups and the downs and and I was I was part of the 08-09 helping helping companies through the that that Great Recession and that was really,  very.  And went to all sectors of the economy all at one time this is a little weird in the sense of we're coming out of the pandemic where the economy shut down,  and put it was a temporary type of a of the.  And then now we're going into a recession so what I'm finding now is that is that companies don't seem to.    [6:23] It is hard to recessionary factors what what happened I think is that a lot of companies use the pandemic,  as their wage for right size you know did they have too many employees than they look for efficiencies they got a chance to take a breath,  and essentially reach will their processes during that time while they while they were holding things together and now that we're into the recession I'm not hearing,  as much Doom and Gloom about where we are right now yes different Industries are hit in different ways,  but I think that they took a bigger hit in 2020 than they are necessarily today as their as their announcing weather,  whether we're in a recession or not because I don't think there's even an agreement that that were actually in one right that's that's part of the problem is the news doesn't know what to say and and then it becomes political to because everything gets political the nowadays but.  You know my thing looking at the job the job reports it's insane to say to think how many people you know so many jobs are still not filled.    [7:30] And to me the recession was classic recessions are really centered around.  People not having any work and so they lose their ability to buy and spend money and continue to build the economy.  So it's really I think it's anybody's guess I think the market has reacted a lot through the year anticipating.  A deeper a deeper recession and now recently it's kind of coming back up to so it's really I think it's impossible to know but I still think all of it kind of considering it's definitely made some people nervous and,  so one of the things that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this topic and I think it's very timely and I think it'll be.    [8:10] Too it's kind of like it's always the case because nobody knows what the future is anyways.  And so you know going into some transactions now should a client or should a company that's thinking about selling their company to an ESOP should they be nervous are really concerned in your opinion about you know a recession.    [8:28] I think the recession issues may be an influencer but not a decision maker.  And what I mean by that is that is that the.    [8:39] The industries that company may be may be in right now if they're considering selling or not is going to be an idea of what do they think of the future of where they're where they're positioned.  So    [8:56] So some things that were looking at is well if you're a home builder it might be different than your if your distributor or if you're different than in professional service.  And it and that's why this is different than 08 because that hit everybody else the same time and this is Pockets here and there so so I definitely think it's something to be considered and more about.  What do you think your net income is going to be in the future a lot of companies that they don't have assets so the methodology is a discounted cash flow,  so we're buying the future income stream so that's kind of where these companies are saying well a.m.  Do I have a pretty strong future or is it or is it solid and stable.    [9:44] Be can I afford the cash flow and and even and am I going to maximize value not in an ESOP come.  Maximizing value,  isn't necessarily it's awful on the list but it is you know people certainly with the sellers want to secure retirement and of course,  they are concerned about the viability of their companies moving forward the couple that financing options and that creates going up,  so we do have some concerns about the feasibility aspect but that's but it's well planned for so so I think that we've got some multi-tiered.  Decisions that get made but I don't think it's a joke.    [10:31] Now it's just I think when you have any kind of uncertainty it's something that has to be considered in so.    [10:39] With your with your background and again I want to make sure people get like,  you have done a lot you know since like the 80s you've been in this in this field but you know you've done a lot of ESOP transactions you have  I'm guessing from what you told me like 80 plus something like that companies that you represent as trustees at is that right or is that.  That's right yeah so you've got a lot of wealth of experience at dealing with with these kind of issues when I go through a process of doing a transaction very beginning.  I really focus heavily on the forecast and the financial forecast is going to be used.    [11:16] In the planning on a couple levels first off what is what is the cash flow the fort you know forecast going to going to glean and when you get down to some of the nitty-gritty parts of the forecast.  The difficulty is like really understanding.  What revenue is going to do and what is done in historical is going to be part of a data point contracts the company has will be a data point the.  Trends in the industry the average is some of the new may be surprised X or Services the company I so there's a lot of things that go into the revenue side.  There's a lot there should be some discussion and thought process about the gross margin and how the companies able to work through,  Kim you know continuing on keeping either that level Supply chains been an issue when it comes to gross profit you know certainly labor costs have been.  Some of the issues so forecasting is you know something I really heavily focus on I think it's just important part of the whole,  process you know as we developed those models and you go through,  you're on the trustee side how do you look at when you were kind of thinking about potentially recession how do you look at the forecast and I know you get some advising of course you get advised by,  bye valuation firms as well so but what's on your mind when you think about those when we're when we have maybe a looming recession.    [12:39] Those forecasts are critical in your right we I do rely on the on the financial advisor on valuation firm to help me.    [12:47] As far as what the research shows but I think it's also it gets back to the story of the company,  most of these companies that are transitioning to an ESOP because they want to continue the Legacy they're getting closer to retirement those sorts of things they want to they want to,  share the wealth with their employees they have been in the their business for a long time this is,  this isn't they just started their business and now they're selling to an ESOP these are these are our folks who have been in it for 25 30 40 years,  and so they've also seen the ups and downs So I listened very carefully to them ya know what is their opinion because,  they're in the detail of their company you know they know who their competitors are they know what what has happened over time recently with the pandemic with,  wait with the with everything in between and and the challenges and the successes that they've achieved under different economic models,  and and that becomes really critical because evaluation itself is no is not,  it's not just about the financials it's the art and the science and the art is,  what's the story no matter where is it positioned what are the customers like and and sometimes we will extend that analysis to say.    [14:12] Who are you serving and what are there what are their Industries you know are you are you a plumbing distributor that is in the residential Market.  So what's happening in the residential Market you know and and so their customers will drive their results also so it,  we have to take a step back,  and kind of look at the big picture and that's how I'm I'm paying very close attention which is why the which is why our initial due diligence meetings and and the,  the presentation that we have that you're helping to put together is critical for this process yeah I totally agree,  so if you saw a in a transaction like where the company's forecast is just.    [14:58] You know really very strong like they're just predicting very strong growth may be may just be extreme like maybe they're they're going to 20 20 30 40 percent growth rates every year.  And we have a recession and how would you address that in and let's just say historically they've been you know maybe a three to five percent growth rate nothing nothing like the forecast how would you address that in the process of doing a transaction.    [15:26] For these do you see that at all I mean when you're when you're doing deals yeah.  And I get cynical yeah you know we we don't want a hockey stick projection which is what everybody calls it when you got kind of smoothed it growth and then all of a sudden you're projecting,  huge enormous growth there's got to be a reason for it and then and if that's the case we're going to certainly dig into it and see what's driving that answer it may be completely legitimate but I'm going to be a skeptic,  on the front end and ask the questions about why no one and maybe either asked the company to go back and revisit it or through the valley.  Process we're going to really apply some discounts that are going to that are going to normalize what's going on.    [16:16] I think that's in that's kind of what I expected I just want to make sure and how people think and this is really geared towards the people that are thinking about.  Doing an ESOP probably more than the people that are already existing esops just because they're putting together that information they're working with their advisors.  There are advisors out there that you know frankly will push hard on a higher forecast because it's.  It's going to yield in the analysis of higher of at a higher value because a lot of weight is put on the discounted cash flow so,  as a client as a company you're thinking about this you do want to you do want an advisor to give you at the very beginning of your he's not planning to give you some pushback,  on that forecast or at least root out like what's the purpose like what's the reason why you know even with the normal forecast if it just say the normal historical.  Business planning wise like what what's going on behind the revenue numbers because I think that's a real important aspect you don't want to get too deep into.  The process of me like wow you know I thought I was going to get some huge amount of money and then now I'm negotiating.  With Michael Miller and he's like telling me I'm getting it last so you know so that those are just kind of thoughts that I have.    [17:29] And that's fair but we have to remember as you're saying is that is that.  It's fine for for a sell-side advisor to be pushing for higher numbers I mean that's their job is advocating for the seller.  On my side and trustee I'm advocating for the participants and by law under erisa I'm not allowed to pay more than fair market value or it's considered a prohibited transaction so.  So now what what is fair market value well there's there's the art yeah you know so.  So it's what are we agreeing to a willing buyer and a willing seller now not all of that.  And what I want to I want to say is that not all of that is buried in the purchase price because sometimes,  that happens on the back end so we may negotiate a lower upfront purchase price,  but there might be something like synthetic Equity like warrants or SARS or something on the corner now out you know something that says if you can achieve these numbers.  On this what you're projecting.    [18:36] I'm happy to share that with you and and the participant and not me personally but but the participants get.  Recognize some of that value and you get paid out where value and so so there's a give-and-take there in a structure,  so it doesn't have to be a you have to fit in a particular box and it's an all-or-none situation yeah I think that's a good point.  And again we're and within the topic of recession what might make sense for a company.  Is to kind of get okay with maybe a lower number when you're doing your planning you know where this is way before you get in to negotiating with Michael or whoever your trustee is.    [19:15] Is is to kind of get comfortable with maybe with a lower number at the beginning and then know that if you have a warrant involved in the transaction.  That you could prop you could pretty much.  At the back end get paid the other piece of it assuming assuming your company hits those targets and they are able to come out and are perform higher than you.    [19:36] Maybe have even expected so I think that's a good point when you go into recession helps you to maybe have a little lower price because.  The reality of having in this is kind of what I talked to a lot of clients not just the the owners but I talked about the key managers to because they're going to be burdening for burdening the company with debt.  And so so now we go from having a company let's just say for instance there's no debt,  and now we have all this debt that has to be paid off that can be a little uncomfortable for people to and you know maybe even for the owners to be in the midst of paying down debt like that so having a little bit of a lower.  Purchase price coming in could be helpful if you can if you can do it Michael talking about and have something on the back end to make you you know whole and.    [20:24] So it's just other side of that is what's the debt structure so ya know if there's a difference between Bank debt and seller debt.  So the bank that you know if we're dealing with the bank we're certainly going to have a lot of covenants that are going to have to be agreed to visit Bank just like to have their requirements and and watch that companies are achieving them but,  if you minimize the bank or eliminate them and have it as seller that you got a lot of flexibility,  so so I find it sellers do like that it's not the same as a personal guarantee they're still involved in the in the company they feel like they're they're attached to it because as its Cellar dip but the,  but the thing is that they have that flexibility so so they can tell the company well here's the plan but we're going to watch what's going on and so if we get into a recessionary mode.  Maybe the seller is going to back off to the company and say you know what let's hold off on the payment because,  we've got better uses for this money I don't need it right now and so we'll just approve the interest and catch up later you know and vice versa yeah so I think that.    [21:37] We can deal with that on the on the front end to so,  feasibility and affordability being burdened with the debt really depends on on what so if you're if you're in the bank maybe you've got a you've got,  smaller debt as a percentage of the transaction so you feel like you can always pay that and.  Yeah and then and then the seller mix comes in as more of a flexible type of.    [22:06] Yeah I think kind of going into the topic of financing in this is something I'm seeing right now happen is.  Some banks that you have you know when you start your process of getting you know your ESOP plan.    [22:20] And you have the bank maybe it's your incumbent bank that's providing a term sheet maybe you've gone out in the market and you've got multiple term sheets from Banks.  As the bank's I mean because it's not a commitment letter the term sheet can change so I have had a deal just recently.  Where the bank came back and said you know what we weren't going to charge we weren't going to have you guys have personal guarantees.  But now we're going to need them at least at least until we get through what we perceive as as a recession so this is just really recent and.  My client decided hey we're not comfortable with that so we're going to we're going to back off on the set the bank debt completely so we ended up doing a hundred percent seller financing.  In you know changing in the middle of the deals kind of difficult but you can do it and we work through all the documents to change them but the bottom line is is the bank is going to be in a risk position,  we're there some of them are going to react accordingly so when you think about an ESOP deal.    [23:23] The terms that the bank is providing you you need to really think about those terms.  You know what does it mean to violate you know a loan Covenant and so most mostly stopped dealing.    [23:34] Are going to have some type of Covenant that is going to be tied to.  The cash flow of the company so it's going to be usually a fixed charge coverage ratio or a debt service coverage ratio.  So the question needs to be asked like what happens if I violate that Covenant and most banks are going to tell you this it's they're going to say hey.  Well this is a flag we're going to monitor it quarterly it's going to put us in a position so we can better understand but the same time you when you violate a loan Covenant you're kind of in a,  in a tight spot so some people and just thinking you know about the financing discussion,  and having a recession some people are going to be more comfortable in you know is if this recession really starts to get,  more and more you know or deeper and deeper or whatever becomes more real.  Then it may make sense just to do 100% Cellar notes you know which means you don't get liquidity at the closing but you have a lot more control over the you know the process of being flexible so on your side Michael I mean.  I don't know if you're seeing a lot of the changes there but are you what's your take on Bank financing vs. seller financing or you know do you have do you have any preference for either.    [24:48] I don't necessarily have a preference for either.    [24:52] I think the market is starting to shift now as the interest rates are going up and so the banks have started getting a little more nervous the other side.  If you are doing a c-corp 10:42 transaction they may use the bank debt.    [25:10] And Link that with a 1042 investment in order to have that collateral outside of,  essentially a personal guarantee so it's really protecting the bank and that's and that's what they want to get to I really see that that most ESOP companies are very solid,  that they that they do so much planning on the front end that the,  that it that it is Affordable and that and that what happens is that is that the bank debt is paid off quickly quicker than than usually planned and then the banks coming back.  Asking to take out the rest of the debt that the seller had in the deal because they've been so pleased with what's going on now that may change a little bit as we get deeper into a recession if it does get deeper or longer,  but what I have seen this over and over and I don't think it's necessarily.    [26:07] Recessionary elated as it is to the company's own financials and as long as there's a good plan in place to continue.  Wow making their money and generating their business it's not going to be a problem yeah I mean that and that is,  the whole concept of your business like the fundamental part of business of owning a business or running a business.  Is Cash is King you know so if you have cash you can work out things so when you've been a trustee all these companies have you seen.  You know I guess some things that were companies either because of recession or did you just went through a downturn how have you seen them manage through that downturn.    [26:49] Um you know maybe you've seen some real Bleak parts or stories Rik I don't know how we're going to get through this next year so I you know what would you say about that in terms of,  your experience level and dealing with this kind of companies going to that down that difficult time.    [27:06] I have dealt with those companies and I have a couple right now I mean not everybody is on the upswing.  I have a couple of companies that are going through some some Covenant issues with their Banks and so.    [27:23] It's not all it's not all Rosy now it happens as a trustee is that,  even though I'm not on the board as a trustee I approached the board and we're working together because I'm challenging the board to say well what can you do,  to right the ship and you know what steps have you taken what are you documenting,  with respect to how is the pipeline going what are you what is your Staffing like where can you,  we're can you affect expenses and and Revenue,  and who are the right people and what are the conversations you're having with the Banks Banks don't want to step in that they really don't,  you know it's like it's like when you they don't want to foreclose on a mortgage you know they don't want your house and so,  so what they want to do is work with you so there are choices in negotiations that you can go through and provide them the information to say that you're going through this and trying to do that so so I have an obligation on the ass.    [28:22] Trust in the participants to to challenge the board to do that and you know and sometimes it takes a little bit longer than others sometimes.  You know that the idea is,  is the fact that there is a company that will fail and it's been very rare I would say and and history shows that ESOP companies hold together much better than none ESOP companies,  and so so if a company gets to that situation where the writing's on the wall it's got to go up for sale and then you can clear up all of the issues,  that way too but yeah I'm dealing with a couple of those cases now and it's not that they're going to go out of business,  but they are taking those steps,  they also are relying on the employees because everybody knows what's going on it may not be overt in the sense of employees are not seeing the financials of the company,  you know they're they're not seeing if their losses or profits are down or things like that but they kind of get a Feeling Just because,  owners are tend to be more active in the companies and and they are walking around and you can see the stress on their faces and and the owners sometimes are are going to reach out to the employees and say,  I'm weird employee-owned company and we're going to solicit your ideas to what do you think that.    [29:49] That I mean we hiding the message but the but essentially what they're trying to do is say are you what can you do to help the process you know is there Fishin sees you can drive,  is there you know are there others revenue and ideas.    [30:09] And I think they rally around that and in an ESOP company much more than a non employee ownership.  Yeah and it kind of that make sense great point and it makes me think about you know so we're not all doom and gloom on hey this is you know recession time but the positives of a recession you know like you alluded to.    [30:30] Which is like hey if we go through a tough time together as employees in an employee-owned company.  We become we become better at almost draws people's strengths out Innovation can happen and you can really use it to strengthen the ESOP culture itself.  So I think that's a great that's a great Point like some of the some of the blessings of having a recession.    [30:53] I think would be a good thing to think about one of the thoughts I had as you were talking is and just recently some of the things I'm working on.  Is hey now because of maybe a recession that's happening and I kind of talked about the unemployment being so low but it may wiggle out some new people that weren't available you know so your talent pool,  might be opened up again now in terms of recruiting and in building out you know the.  That the right people in the right seats so there's there's there's some there's some positives to a recession.  You know nobody wants to that when nobody wants to go into a you know a depression or have any major,  abrupt problems you know in the economy but at the same time if it's mild it can be somewhat positive for some companies so where do you see that Michael on your side as far as some of the some of the positive things that come out of recessions.  I completely agree with you I think that this is a little different in that we saw some of this right-sizing through the pandemic when people stop working,  but as I look back in 08 and 09 I think that some of the things that you're saying really tell true I'll give you an example is that a building supply company I was working with in.    [32:12] Atlanta they.  Had problems you know with the recession everything really fell apart then but they use the ESOP as a rallying point and what they did do was that.  The hell together the employees were willing to make sacrifices whether it was a salary reduction for a short time or or something else but.  What they were watching was that their competitors who were not employee-owned we're dropping like flies and because of that,  they found an opportunity to grab employees,  and market share and the businesses themselves to expand what they what they did and so so it really was.  Something that they saw as a positive because when they came out of the recession they were monsters and they continue to be to this day good monsters I think so I think you were,  you know what you're saying is holding true.    [33:16] Yeah so it's something is much as we can look at the negative that there's definitely some positives that could come out of it for companies I always try to tell people to just.    [33:26] You know because we can get two years where we're growing and growing and growing that we start we start to forget about just recession proofing,  our businesses you know making sure that I have the proper line of credit to make sure in case I die I needed it some companies go year after year.  So making sure I have access to cash making sure I've really looked at my cost you know and sometimes cost creep up.  And we don't really focus on those so there's you know that what this topic is today but there are definitely some things you should do to think about recession proofing.    [34:00] But if you're prepared for it like Michael said then you can come out of that much much stronger and have a much higher valuation and again Aesop's or for the long term I mean they're their transactions are going to be for the selling shareholders,  but that for the employee side it's going to be a long-term benefit,  so writing out an A recession as an employee in an ESOP company can actually be a good thing because of the things that we were just talking about.  From an employee perspective Michael is there anything else that you know the employees I mean because I would imagine they get nervous if the company is going through a downturn,  is there anything that you as a trustee because you definitely aren't connected more to the participants would tell people in a company that's in ESOP going through a difficult time.    [34:50] Communication is critical and an employee-owned company this is what gives the employees the security too.  Stay with the jobs to ride this out to look for efficiencies to really drive that loyalty both ways,  no it's the employees loyalty to to working for the company and as the company's loyalty to the employees it says you're very important to this process we can't do it without you that our financial Maybe,  reflected in our stock price but it's all unrealised,  until you actually take it so so we're going to see ups and downs most of us you know.  Ownership level have seen this stuff before we know how to deal with it so take take some comfort in that we know what we're doing we're preparing and we're doing this for you because as a as an ESOP company remember this,  the owners yes they want to get paid if their debts not paid off but it's also to preserve that long term.  Benefit for the employees because it is a retirement benefit it just happens to be invested in Company stock so so the impact is much greater than if you were going to go to to the market and buy like.  Shares of Coca-Cola stock because you're not going to impact the price of.    [36:16] Folk stuff I drinking another soda but so what you do everyday in the company really has a huge,  yeah that's a great point so we're kind of at a time at this point but I wanted to kind of finish with any anything that you kind of final words or advice for people that are going through the ESOP process or going to beginning the ESOP process.  That you would add to you know just the way that they're making their decision I would say that.  In general ask questions and do you want to you want to not get surprised as to what the process is or what's involved it is an m&a transaction be.  And that and then you'll have some short-term goals and some long-term goals but the idea that is that this.    [37:04] May feel complicated.    [37:07] And it is some degree but you're still driving your own destiny and that's that's really important in an ESOP company,  because you're still going to be involved it's still your name on the door that you've built up and and if you're on the board moving forward which most are,  you still have that decision making as opposed to selling out losing the culture and really just throw everything that you work for disappear,  except maybe forgetting Financial rewards and and the you know and most ESOP company owners I.  Care about their employees and what happens to them longer-term so it's a it's a great process and don't be afraid to ask questions awesome well thank you so much for your Insight Michael I.  I know that just kind of be able to talk through that a little bit especially having you know so much experience is really helpful for people.  So for everybody else again thank you for your time today Michael appreciate you being on our podcast.    [38:09] My pleasure thank you so for everybody else thanks for listening today if you like the podcast Please Subscribe you if you want to go out on our website at journey to a nice up.com you can find,  other episodes that might be really helpful on your journey to an ESOP and so with that I just wish everybody a great day a great weekend and we'll see you soon.

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About Journey to an ESOP & Beyond

ESOPs are gaining traction. In the "Journey to an ESOP & Beyond” podcast, Phillip Hayes explains the process of the ESOP transaction and addresses ESOPs from a business owner’s perspective. The "ESOP Guy" illuminates the simplicity of ESOPs as he debunks common misconceptions that ESOPs are immensely costly and complicated.

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