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Summary of Podcast on EP25 - Take this job and shove it - The Great Resignation - How do ESOPs help retain employees? - The Grid Wiki

EP25 - Take this job and shove it - The Great Resignation - How do ESOPs help retain employees?

Journey to an ESOP & Beyond

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| August 30, 2022

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When should a business owner start succession planning?What advice do business owners who sold to third parties have to offer me?Will all of my employees become owners if I sell the business to them?

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This episode evaluates the issue of the "Great Resignation" and how ESOPs are a great tool to support employee retention. We cover some of the top reasons people are leaving their jobs. Some of the direct benefits of an ESOP company to improve the overall quality of jobs and how important it is as we move into the future to provide something more for people to build a long-term career with a company.

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Hey everyone this is the ESOP guy and guess what it's Friday and I'm what am I doing here I'm actually going to do a podcast before I go home for the weekend that's how.  I guess I just love podcasting so.  If this isn't a Friday for you and you're like driving into work then maybe you should listen to this one towards the end of the week I want to start off with this because this is just actually going to be I think a lot of fun today so here we go.    [0:41] This job and shove it.    [0:44] Music.    [1:08] You can take your job and shove it Robert Hayes star of airplane Barbara Hershey Martin Mull.    [1:16] Can you guess what this episode is going to be about I am been I've been just kind of thinking about doing this for a little while and.  Okay I was alive during this movie when this was this was played this is take your take this job and shove it.  And the whole thing was inspired by a song and a country song that you may or may not have heard.  And so the movie is just really kind of about this this.  Whole Factory of workers that produce beer and.  It's a comedy and if you haven't guessed that and so it's idea is like hey take this job and shove it.  Is I'm out of here and one of the things I was thinking about for this podcast is is why.    [2:11] Do people were in such a crazy crazy year right we have inflation we've got potential recession.  We've got the lowest unemployment rate still it's just this crazy like.  Thing that doesn't make any sense and so as a as a business that's thinking about going towards a nice.    [2:33] One of the reasons I a lot of people that I'm talking to that are thinking about going ESOP is hey how do we connect what we're doing as a company to the employees and and so we know that there's a sense of.    [2:48] What we want to do with an ESOP is we want to we want to strengthen our retention of business of employees.  And so the first part about as we as we go through this we're just going to cover the whole idea of what what is it what's going on with employees will talk a little bit about the great resignation,  and we're going to talk about why employees would want to stay in a company if they have an ESOP so I think the value here for you if you want to keep listening is is that,  you're thinking about this ESOP equation you're like well does it even make sense for us in terms of.  Possibility and the value that the ESOP brings to the table for the employees so that they don't tell us hey take this job and shove it.  So anyway first off I just love that song and I think it's kind of funny and I kind of have I've always wanted to say that anyways like just say it out loud on,  on and now I get to do it on the podcast so I am an owner of a company so I can't really tell myself to take my job and shove it I guess I could then I could,  just do something different but I like my job so I wouldn't do that I love it I actually take I actually want to keep my job,  because I love it there anyway,  so if you like the podcast in and if this is your first podcast normally I'm not all over the place like this but it is Friday afternoon if this is your first podcast this is a podcast.    [4:15] That is like no other it is all about Aesop's and it's all about,  helping you understand an employee stock ownership plan and so the target audience is somebody that owns a company or maybe they're part of a key management of a company and they're thinking you know I've heard about the ESOP I need to know more,  that's the target audience and so the whole concept of this of this podcast is about journey to an ESOP so it's like I'm thinking about going in ESOP I know some information or I need to know more,  this podcast is really a resource to help you to know more if you like it please subscribe to the podcast and you know one thing I haven't asked people to do forever,  and I don't I doubt you're going to do it but I'm going to ask you anyways is if you like this podcast figure out the technology wise like how to do it,  but go and do a review of it,  and if you like it may put five stars because that will be helpful and you know even better than that send it to a friend you know and you probably can just hit share the podcast on your phone and give it to a friend if you think that they would,  benefit from it but anyway so that's my little advertisement for you it is so fun to do this and so as we get started.    [5:31] I wanted to start with this idea that you know we as we start off thinking about the last you know last year and then into this year this whole idea of the what what's been called,  the great resignation has really kind of stopped a lot of different things we've we've seen Industries and businesses really struggle with keeping Pace with the actual opportunities that they've had,  from a growth standpoint because they haven't been I'm going to kind of maintain the level of employees that they've needed.    [6:07] And so one of the first part of this I wanted to cover really some of the reasons and thoughts behind what what is happening and why people are leaving their jobs in.  One of the things in the research that we've done is is just looking at some of the reasons why people have left their jobs and just kind of thinking about that might be really helpful in terms of understanding how.  When we are more thinking about an ESOP how that might really kind of help.  Combat or be a great solution to this type of issue.    [6:44] So in some research that was done one of the main things when we look at the top reasons in 2021.  Folks have.  Left their job and quit ever gone on an other jobs is the pay was too low that was the major one of the major reasons in the study now.    [7:06] You know that makes sense because a lot of times what's happening in the economy is is a lot of the businesses are growing and they're need people so they're everybody's kind of offering more and more money because that's such a major major part of it.  The second major reason companies have,  looked at our employees have looked at leaving and quitting their job in 2021 is because of no opportunities for advancement and they've just kind of help,  it kind of Hit the the the wall and this research really I'm just kind of give you the background here this this comes from a company called Pew Research Center was published in March of this year,  entitled from an article entitled majority of workers who quit a job in 2021,  and one of the reasons the reasons that they're looking at it those types of things.  The third reason that people have employees have quit their jobs in 2021 is that they have felt disrespected at work oh,  so first first is I'm not paid enough second is I don't have an opportunities for advancement,  and then the third is to feel disrespected now the question in our minds before we even talk about esops is what is it that that the employer.    [8:25] Whether that be the owner of the company whether it be the key management whether that be the middle management or are,  reports what is it that they can do for these things obviously we have to think about compensation inflation has been at an all-time high,  so that's that's you know a no-brainer and there's some difficult Parts about compensation and everybody has to kind of work through that the second second part is that there frankly are some businesses that.  Are too small in the sense in that you know they're just there is only so far you can go with a company and so there are things you can do about this and there's things you can't do about it,  and you certainly can't slight anybody for wanting to advance in their career and if they get an opportunity to do that then they should honestly,  so part of the reason so part of the reason we,  to you know think about the growth of our businesses when we look at idea of business planning and strategic planning is that we want to create more and more opportunities for people to have,  doors open in the company and I think just in general that is something that.    [9:38] Some businesses have identified and in strategic planning have figure it out you know through acquisition through which which basically just buying some other companies and creating new opportunities there,  through a growth strategy of just saying hey we're going to we're going to create some new areas of our business and what we're going after they might have.  Gone into a new geography they may go through some expansion in some integration and other parts of other of their business sectors so they can expand and give more opportunities,  one thing about opportunities though to sometimes is you have to be sensitive to where people are and I know one thing that's changed in the in.  It was dealing with employees over the last you know five years 10 years has been.  We've been way more in terms of looking at the opportunities that our employees We Them way more sensitive to.  The the need that they have for progress reports.    [10:42] Burp just letting them know where they wear their how they're doing where they're doing how they're doing where they're going with with a good career plan or,  I'm really measuring the success that they've made so far and and I know there was a part of me when this first started that was a little cynical but because the generational stuff is different and,  Our Generation was we just kind of started working and you know eventually like you know tell us next year how we're doing but we'll just keep doing what we're doing,  this newer generation is like we need to know like every month sometimes every week maybe sometimes every day so when that first started with us like I was like.  I'm kind of like negative about it but now I've I've just turned the corner because it you know it is what it is and we want to embrace the new generation and they're certainly bring a lot to the table as well so.  So that's kind of even for me as I say that that's like surprising for me to even hear myself say those words but it's true and.    [11:42] So the fourth reason.    [11:46] Is because of childcare issues the fifth reason is because there's not enough flexibility to choose when to put in hours this is an interesting one which will come back to in a second,  the fifth reason is are the 6-3 isn't reason is is the benefits were good so.  Benefits sound like Aesop's we'll get there the seventh raises wanted to relocate to a different area they weren't able to.    [12:15] The eighth reason is working too many hours dot-dot-dot and then.  I just put that dot dot dot on there that's not on the article and then we had the last reason or one of the last reasons is working to few hours so that's number nine and then the final one for the top.  10 reasons is the employer required a covid vaccine so I know that was a major issue in 2021,  and we'll just kind of hover around some of those because I don't want to get too caught up with it with anything that would be too controversial for our podcast.  You know what we'll hit it so coming back to feeling disrespected at work.  What is that mean you know I think I think this is one of those cultural things and.  Um I'll just kind of say this for a second every curl every business is going to have its own culture and it's very you know unique but it's in my experience it's definitely a reflection of.  The leadership and it always it seems in my opinion to flow from the top down so if the if the.    [13:25] Top person or the top people are very very positive forward-thinking open-minded inclusive,  wanting to encourage and mentor and I'm just using up man these all these.  Great positive words that would capture some of the key elements of what we probably would all if we were sitting around,  um you know a campfire talking about our companies and businesses we'd all kind of probably agree that these are those are good things that I just talked about.    [14:03] And because of out of all of those things really flows this,  this camaraderie in this place where people want to work and gather around so so what happens like how does a cat is how do people in a culture start to.  The employees how does that happen.    [14:22] And I do think it would blame if I had to blame anybody I'd blame the top people in the organization if that's if that's really happening but there are sometimes,  bad apples in the management group that nobody really kind of take pays attention to one thing I noticed is over all the years of dealing with our company and really other clients companies is,  sometimes we you have these people in the company that really don't fit your culture.  They're really bad apples you know and they've got like a warm and them or something so they're bad and they need to go away.  But the Management Group doesn't really do anything about it because there may be avoiding too afraid of conflict.  Or  Yeah and so they don't want to they don't want to rock the boat and let me just say this as a business owner as a leader of a business is somebody that advises clients on this kind of topic.    [15:24] One of the attributes of a good leader is somebody that doesn't want a certain nobody wants to have conflict right but conflict is this part of the day at the end of the day you're going to have to deal with.  Difficult conversations and if you don't deal with them then they're going to deal with you and this is one of those areas where it deals with you if you're losing people because one of your one of your key people is disrespecting your employees.  I'm going to tell you right now that's a huge problem in your in your business because it's going to it's going to,  corrode inside and you're going to have problems you know that you don't even know about now these days and what I mean by these days is like these days people are like so quick.  Like to just draw up all that information throw it on the internet you know job vent or Glassdoor whatever and next thing you know you've been.    [16:17] People have talked about your company like it's the worst place in the world years and years and years ago.  I had the opportunity and I say it was an opportunity I had the difficult challenge of.  Opportunities and challenges kind of they go to me they go kind of hand-in-hand of really changing our organization because I had to fire one of the owners I had to fire one of the partners because he was that kind of person and he disrespected people,  he did all kinds of things that were egregious in the sense of,  I just trained people really really poorly you know and he just was a very negative.  Person and he didn't fit our culture but this person just being honest got tolerated in Organization for far too long and I was.  Not yet this the managing partner was not yet to CEO at the time so I was just kind of sit in the back watching it and I was wondering in my head.    [17:19] You know why why is this thick happening why are we why do we let it happen and so so really we're just kind of just kind of pointing the finger at us and saying hey this these are things that are definitely.    [17:32] Big a big issue so I and I hover on that one because.  When I when I get into the ESOP side I'm going to talk about the culture side because it's so important in that one that we talked about right there is culture culture culture so.  Don't be afraid.  Clean house in your company if you've got people like that but I also kind of caution everybody and say don't overreact either I mean make sure you have all the facts,  because you're the better you do that the the stronger your company's culture will be the more sustainable you'll be and as you move into an ESOP,  that is really a key thing a key element to becoming a solid ESOP company as a sustainability of your business.    [18:15] So some of the other ones that we talked about childcare issues I mean certainly if you you've got people that are working in families matter and so you really do need to try to work around those types of situations especially now with remote work.  Being such a such a,  an opportunity to blend what people are doing at home and what they're doing at work as long as it makes sense from a productivity standpoint.  So definitely think about that being the top for that's that's a pretty big deal.  Number 5 not enough flexibility to choose when you put in hours.  You know I think I think just in general thinking about how how people are productive and in some ways trying to build.  An opportunity for people from all walks of life to be able to contribute value to the company,  ink make sure that they're utilized well and I think the bottom line with that from a business profitability seeing point is if you find the right people and your and they're in the right seats,  that should take care of itself if you have people that are not the right people and they're not in the right positions then you're going to have a bigger problem they're trying to figure that all out.  Benefits are benefits and when you get to the ESOP side of course this is going to be a phenomenal benefit for everybody so we'll we'll talk about that in a few minutes but sometimes it's just the reality.    [19:38] That it is hard for small companies to provide the same kind of benefits that a larger company can have.  And we've been there we've had people come and go when we were smaller that said hey you know of course I could go to this big company and I'm going to get this this and this and.  Benefits I always communicate this way benefits have.  You know there are there are different types of benefits of course for a 401k and insurance and those are your tangible benefits but there's also benefits of having,  of being part of a smaller organization before you're in the ESOP yet and the benefits of being able to you know build a career that has a lot more opportunity where you're not just,  you know this this one you know small small small part of a bunch of employees,  benefit of being having more influence of directing the company towards different things so there's when I say benefits of course I'm just stretching that and to be whatever I want it to be.    [20:36] Some of the other ones that I think are of no just kind of working too many hours and work it to few hours I mean that's kind of a you know that that is probably a mix that's difficult,  your company needs to figure out a balance of utilization sometimes with people,  was just means some some people that are really really good at what they do get all the hours in the other people that are not as good don't get as many so I'm probably worried about how do you balance out the people that are getting too many hours and then finally covid-19,  you know I think we talked about covid enough this year over the last couple of years I'm kind of I'm kind of tired of talking about it,  I think that for my opinion the vaccine things kind of a dead deal now as well in the u.s. probably not in Canada because in Canada they wouldn't even let me fly into the country because I didn't have a vaccine but that's another story,  that I don't really want to worry about.  So as we think about this we're going to transition now to the ESOP side those are some good things to think about in your company and you know head off at the past if those were the most recent relevant ones in 2021,  in 2022 who knows what the reasons are you know I think it's always a moving Target with people and in business in general let's just be honest.    [21:52] It's the hardest part of the business right people the people side is the hardest part so we all know that in so as businesses really get this this right,  they'll get it right for a little while and they'll keep having to work on it because it's so so hard now what will help us get it right.  Okay if we do now what I'm going to say here is very general ISO,  get it just keep that in mind but one of the things that could help us get it right as a tool is an employee stock ownership plan and so I want to cover some of the reasons why an employee stock ownership plan really would be something that the,  the employees would say hey instead of take this job and shove it I'm going to keep this job forever because I love.    [22:36] Instead of take this job and shove it I'm going to stay here because I love it that rhymes so I told you I was just going to really have a good time with this one.  So the first reason that an employee benefit or employees would would,  more likely stay in using the the advantages of an ESOP is that they really gain an opportunity with retirement benefits.  So what that means is you know for those that are brand-new that you saw shops and for those that are not I mean this will be redundant but an ESOP is a qualified Benefit Plan.  It is like a 401k plan but it's different in some major ways.  And one of the things that it's the way it's different is that employees do not contribute their own money towards the retirement plan.    [23:27] And so here it is you're standing in front of all of these people were announcing that we've just sold the company on there because I'm the advisor.  And everybody's lookin and they're all nervous their employees they're all nervous and they're all looking around and saying oh.  What happened right and then suddenly after the tension is allowed to build somebody really smart says hey.  We sold the company but we actually sold it to you.  And then you leave another little paws and they're like gasp what is that mean what do you mean I bought the company I didn't have I don't have enough money in my checking account for milk this week how did I'm how am I going to afford to buy this company.    [24:10] And so then you say well the nice thing is you don't actually have to pay anything out of your own pocket for this because it's all been structured in the ESOP plan.  And now and then you talk about the retirement plan aspect of an ESOP.  And so the idea here is as the momentum and the and the tension starts as the tension starts to dwindle down and and then and then people are starting to listen and really lean in,  you start to talk about the way that they're going to get shares in this company over this period of time.  And the period of time let's just say this for for purposes of accuracy it's generally going to be a longer term period of time so what I don't want to overstate this part of the benefit of employees.  I recently had a client meeting or a company meeting with a company that was thinking about and he stopped and more than half of their people were over.    [25:10] And I'm like well let me just like point this out it's not a major benefit to people that are at the towards the end of their career,  and I know that people could work a lot longer than 60 nowadays but it really is more of a long-term retirement plan that will benefit people for being there over a period of time the company is going to be moving into this debt structure that's going to have to get paid off.  But it's going to be a truly a benefit and I know statistically there's a lot of Statistics that float around about you know employee owned companies so I would just kind of generally say that that.    [25:47] The companies that are Aesop's employee-owned companies are going to have more their employees are going to have more retirement assets than a company that is not a nice,  and I've heard I've heard some statistics like it's double other companies that are Nani sap and you know all I want to say is that I know it's more.  And if we did a lot more homework on that I know I could get you some more statistics but but that's going to be one of the reasons when you think about the reasons people were leaving and say there's not enough benefit.    [26:18] For me to stay here and this is a benefit that will not just keep people there.    [26:23] Interested for the short term it should keep people are interested in the long term,  because it's going to be a longer term payout there's going to be a vesting schedule so they're going to need to be typically a vesting schedules about six years five to six years when you come out of the gate with an ESOP.  And so that will keep them thinking I got to keep I got to stay here so I can keep vesting the value is going to build each year and so that when I say that the reason I say that is because.  In general the company is paying debt down.    [26:55] Very very regularly and as they do they continue to increase value and so that's going to be a real strong Advantage for.    [27:04] For employees to see that their future is very bright and we can point to a lot of examples of companies.  That you can see that the impact of having employees like that and I'll just point out Publix as a good example the largest theesopguy in the country here in Florida,  they're growing crazy you go into a public store and it's obvious that there's something different about about what they're doing and how they're doing it.  So the next thing I want to talk about,  and this is probably maybe not on the highest list of people because of the way the job market has been but it's the idea that.    [27:48] When a company is going to choose between a transition plan where they sell the business to a strategic buyer.  Versus selling it to an ESOP the ESOP route is going to clearly.  In very very specifically have more job security for the employees now the reason that is is.  Because in general the buyer of course in the ESOP is not looking to make any real changes they're there to keep,  what the company was doing and continue in that same road the road map of what they were doing and they're not interested the buyer is interested in preserving.  The business in the way it was built.  Preserving the legacy of that business in and really continuing and and growing that the buyer,  is of course the trustee in the ESOP but it's really the transitional people that are in management at part of the board of directors and the key people.    [28:57] A strategic buyer you know let's just face it they're just there about for the money,  all right for the most part I mean I'm being pretty you know snotty towards strategic buyers but I'm just saying in general that's they're making a financial decision that makes sense and if it and if all that doesn't work financially,  and they can make another 10 basis points by moving the office from this state over to the headquarter State then they're probably going to do that right just to just to do what they're going to do I mean in there,  what is a company write a company is some as an entity.  That put their primary mission is as a profit company is to make profit so so why would they care about the job security of the employees.  So the other thing I would say about job security is too because the company is going to have more staying power in the same continuation like the continuity of that is going to keep going,  they're going to they're going to also have more opportunities because the if the company,  has this group of people and they continue to grow using the tax advantages of a nice.  Then they're going to create more opportunities for job advancement one of the things we talked about in our list was.    [30:12] Is there enough opportunities for advancement that was number two reason in 2021 to leave their job and so I would say an employee-owned company.  Has the ability to create a more and enriching environment for people to stay within a wonderful incredible culture that was built.  And continue to grow and have and have incredible opportunities and advancement so,  so when I'll just fast-forward through this whole idea that once the debt is paid off of this business and an ESOP now the company has this additional cash flow to really satisfy,  the.  You know we satisfy the debt but now because of the tax benefits of being an ESOP company we have all this other cash to go out and really grow the company through through all sorts of ways of strategic growth plan.    [31:03] So    [31:05] When you think about this part of it too I do think it's important that one of the benefits that employees going to get is.    [31:14] Now this is really important like I talked about culture before and I'm some connecting the dots back here to culture if the culture is good in a company and they go in ESOP it's going to get better.  If the company is got bad culture and people disrespect each other then an ESOP is not going to fix it,  so I'm okay with telling you that in right now saying,  you know if you come to this table and say I want to be an ESOP company and your culture is really not very good and you're expecting the he's off to fix it then you're you're kidding yourself it's not going to work,  ESOP can be even more complicated than make it even worse because you're adding all this other complexity to it so you get your culture worked out before you do that if you got people that are,  disrespecting others you know I said it before but get rid of them because you're going to be a lot better off so.    [32:07] So from a benefit standpoint for the employees they have the opportunity to to grow in that culture and if it is a good culture,  then they can perpetuate it and make it better not just for themselves but also for the future of the company.    [32:24] So so other reasons that I think are just kind of more long-term and in other like focused is that the companies,  as they go as you become part of an ESOP company and employees can enjoy to is the companies,  part productivity the the value they get to build the input that they get to have and a closely held company that turns into an ESOP does get to include a lot of,  people that have you know employees that can contribute in a lot of different ways and I will say just as a sidebar like one of the things and I when I was young.  I was looking for in my career was I had worked it's you know a large company a couple different large companies what I was looking for is,  because I had a lot of ideas I wanted to do different things is having some influence and impact on what I do,  I didn't I wasn't in to just you know hey I'll just do my job clock in and clock out and what I think about what's great about that concept with an ESOP is it.  Is it really does give people that have a.    [33:33] Um a creative Spirit a spirit of like I want to change things I want to help things I want to be really positive influence it gives them a great opportunity to plug in and indirectly.    [33:45] Gives them the benefit of their positive influence on the company on their on their entity that they're helping to grow,  so there's a there's a reward there not just in the opportunity to fulfill be fulfilled in your career but there's a reward as you come back to,  looking at the opportunity to build value in your company and so so there's honestly as I finish this come as concept of why would an employee,  Say Hey I love this company I'm gonna stay here it's wonderful why would they do that for an ESOP company you know all the things I just mentioned they counter pretty much everything on that that list of the top 10,  um other than the covid thing which I of course I'm not talking about but they do counter most of these things where people find,  not not a lot of benefits or you know when you think about compensation compensation is,  definitely of factor of what the company's profitability is what the Management's,  impression of profit of compensation but but I'm not saying it's 141 but I'm saying it does definitely help look at all the things on that list in 2021,  and helped to provide a strong Bridge towards a great future a great tomorrow for employees to be positively motivated and retained in a business and that's.    [35:10] One of the one of the major reasons people are thinking companies are thinking about turning converting their businesses to an ESOP and so it's great it's a great it's a lot of fun and it's a great privilege privilege of mine to help companies do that.    [35:24] So I wanted to finish with this all that is gold does not glitter not all those who wander are lost.  The old that is strong does not wither deep roots are not reached by the frost.  From the Ashes a fire shall be woken a light from Shadow shall spring renewed shall be the blade that was broken the crownless again shall be king.    [35:48] That's token dude so j.r.r. Tolkien what I love about that poem think about it it to me it's all about.  People in humanity and understanding like the how people.  I'm are this wonderful under Scott undiscovered sometimes mystery of an asset to to a company and the ESOP gets to plug that into the equation I think it's it's really a cool quote so,  think about that have a wonderful weekend or if you're just starting your week have a great week,  and with all that keep on keeping on we'll see you on next step on this journey to a ESOP.

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About Journey to an ESOP & Beyond

ESOPs are gaining traction. In the "Journey to an ESOP & Beyond” podcast, Phillip Hayes explains the process of the ESOP transaction and addresses ESOPs from a business owner’s perspective. The "ESOP Guy" illuminates the simplicity of ESOPs as he debunks common misconceptions that ESOPs are immensely costly and complicated.

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