EP38 - In The Air Tonight - Right People/Right Seats

Hey everyone, this is the ESOP guy. We are on a journey to an ESOP. For those that are joining for the very first time, it's like, wow, we're in deep into season two. I'm actually starting to think really heavily about what season 3 looks like. Um, so this is a podcast that really got started right before COVID hit, and it was a, it was a way to try to communicate, um, what are the benefits of an ESOP and, and how ESOPs work and And all of that, you know, all the questions that I would have from clients, and I, I kept thinking to myself, you know, why don't I just do a podcast. So I did a pod, I started the podcast in the uh right before COVID in 2020. And so all of those episodes are available to you if you're interested on our website at journey to an ESOP.com. This, um, podcast has gone a lot of different directions. So we try to do is just topically nail down something, you know, that's really related to how does the, like a journey to ASOP work, how, what sort of things do you be thinking about um as you, as you plan going forward. And really that, you know, one of the people I dealt with, you know, in the early, early part of setting this up was, hey, how are you gonna find content on this? I mean, there's like, how much, how much can you actually talk about? And the interesting part about it is there's like endless things to talk about. And maybe that's just cause I, that's kind of who I am or how I am, but, so this kind of this one, I was sitting on an airplane going to an ESOP meeting and cause we're all flying and traveling again. And I kept thinking like I'm flying Southwest. If you're fly Southwest, I don't know if you get this. I do the early bird every single time, but I always have this anxiety and I always do like the check-in. Um, 24 hours, even though I have the early bird, and I'm probably guaranteed an A, I want to try to get like my, the, the quickest check-in possible because I want to get the right seat. And so this kind of, that just made me start thinking as I was going to the airport about the. Right people in the right seats in your business and how important that is. And I thought to myself, why am I thinking about this? Why do I always think about these kind of things and I can't I just relax and just hang out, but I couldn't. So, that's why that was the inspiration for this podcast episode that you're going to listen to. Um. So as we, as we go through this, um, I wanted to kind of, um, just continue to, to kind of encourage everybody as we go through the process of thinking about um an ESOP and what it is, um, and want to do that with this episode to start with this, um, and I usually use some kind of movie metaphor, but today I'm gonna use this. All right, so you might recognize this song, um. It's called In the Air Tonight, and one of my favorite all time songs by Phil Collins. And the whole song is, it, it's like, what I like about songs is they make you feel something. And this song, it makes me feel like how things are. are affected in an environment when you're like, something's gonna happen, right? And so it made me start thinking about You know, and, and some of the lines of the song are like, so, you know, I saw it with my own two eyes. You can wipe off that grin. I know where you've been. It's all been a pack of lies. Now, this might be weird, but I kept thinking about like how it is when you have to go into a meeting with somebody and you know you're going to have to fire that person. And it's a horrible, if you've done it before, it's a horrible situation and So it made me start thinking about this, this, this atmosphere in in the workplace where, what, what is the obstacle that we have when we're talking about the right people in the right seats and why, why do we even care about the right people right seats? What do we, what do we mean by that? What I mean by that is, is in a, in a, any business that that has people that are actually in part a part of the company doing different things. You're going to have to make choices as you build the business and some companies, just like other things, some companies are really good at this, and some companies maybe are not so good at this, or sometimes, sometimes you're just in the middle. And it could be, I don't recognize the right people in the right seats, like I don't put the people in the right place in the business or I don't have them, maybe I have an empty seat that needs to be filled. Um, but why it means something for an ESOP is that a company is moving towards an ESOP, they have to continually think about the strength of the business and That's gonna affect, clearly, it's gonna affect the valuation. So thinking through a process of doing an ESOP, you're gonna have, obviously, the first step is to really understand what the business is worth. And when you're explaining that to a trustee and their valuation firm in the process of selling your company to a trustee, Um, the people are gonna be, they should absolutely be a big part of, of the equation. It's at least the leadership group, if not the culture and other parts of the, of the company and how it is run. So it's clearly going to affect the evaluation. It's clearly going to affect the transition plan of your company going into an ESOP and how, how can you walk away from something or or exit or phase down um your role if you don't have a strong transition plan. So people are going to be important for that. Um, long term, what's the sustainability of your business? Is it, when you think about what it takes to run a lot of companies, um, the people aspect is a, is a major driver. Now, People doing normal tasks on a mundane level is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people that have creative communication, um, skill sets that, that not only can and can take a business plan and, and affect the business plan for the future, but can also um build into that a culture which Bodies, the, the driving forces of a successful business. So I think those are all major aspects of any company that's dealing with whatever they're dealing with, but especially companies that are thinking about going towards an ESOP. So that's my long intro. Um, if you like what you hear, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with a friend. Um, I haven't, you know, asked to in a while, but I would love for anybody that wants to leave a review for the podcast, please do that. Um, so as we, as we start through this process, um, I wanna, I wanna kind of say that again, the, the choice of Using um in the air tonight is gonna be, is, is part of that, that idea that first off, it, there's a, there's a, um a seriousness to the song, like something really bad happened, you know, if you, you know, if you hunt through the lyrics, it's hard to understand really what songs are about. But if you hunt through the lyrics, something really bad happened, right? And somebody's gonna, somebody knows it and they're gonna go and um and take care of it, right? And but there's also another part of the song, which I'll get into a little bit later, which is uh it's like everything kind of gets settled and then the drums go. So we're gonna hit that sometime at some point in this podcast, but that's what it's like to hire the right person or get the people to the right places and everything's going really, really well. And I think everybody that's been in business long enough has experienced both, where you're like, hey, I got a really big people problem here, or, hey, I finally got the right person in the right place and it makes it just really kind of everything tick. So, why is the people side of the business, you know, in general, I would say this is a general statement. Why is um doing the people side of the business, managing the people side of the business so difficult? Maybe it's because people really are all over the place. I mean, personalities, um, strengths and weaknesses, you have, you know, we have the disk, you know, which, you know, people try to test personalities have the personality index thing where you're trying to figure out like do they fit this job based on who they are, got strengths finders to determine what your top five strengths are. You know, so you have all these different, you know, employee people type of consulting platforms to help us as business owners to make good choices when it comes to the people. You know, in addition to that, you've got, you know, come on, books coming out of our ears, you've got articles and consultants and, you know, it's just incredible, um, the amount of money and time in our businesses that we spend on, on people. And So it's, it's something that I think is is dominating uh us and it's gonna dominate us in the future. Now, now, let's talk about the, the, the current time period we're living in. I mean, it is like tough to hire and find talent, right? I mean, if you're in any kind of business that In a geographic place that is growing, and you need people, uh, it's like finding the right people, interviewing people, and then I'm just gonna say it, you know, we're, we're blending in now in our workplaces. All these different generations, and they're all different, like the, the baby boomers are still working. And, you know, then you have the Xers, kind of like me, then you got the millennials, and then there's a whole another stratosphere under the millennials, and they're all, we're all blending these different work styles and it's, it's just absolutely crazy. So, So I think the topic, I mean, we could talk about a lot of things when it comes to this topic, and what I want to do is help the concept behind this is help you think about not just the, the business strategy related to how do you deal with your people, but thinking specifically um with a point at the end of like, if I go with the end, you know, if I begin with the end, kind of get that out of my beginning with the end in mind kind of thing, so borrowing that idea. And I'm sitting in a room with a trustee evaluation firm and a client, and we're presenting a company, and we get to the presentation when it comes to the people. What do I want to have on that screen? Um, I wanna have a good resume. I wanna have, I wanna have people in place for whether I'm talking about an organizational chart or an accountability chart. I wanna have people in place that really makes sense. Now, sometimes we've got um a transition plan that's happening and we're working out some of these things, um. Sometimes we, you know, have great people, we just don't, we got to make sure we're, we're, we're really highlighting what the strengths are. And so if they're really good, and they really are excellent. So we want to be in that place. So now we go backwards and say, right now we're, we're in the planning phase and we're really thinking about what we need there and this is, this is really the essence of the podcast. So, So I'm boiling this gonna, I'm gonna boil this down into um a couple of components. It's gonna be recruiting, onboarding, and firing. All of these are gonna be important to do what? To put the right people in the right seats. Um, so we're gonna cover those specifically and just talk through some of the strategies that might really be helpful and compartmentally, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cover them in those, in those areas. So, first off, recruiting. Um, let me just say this for recruitment of people. Number one, if your business is growing and you, and you're not on, you don't have an active recruiting strategy, um, you might be doing different types of recruiting efforts, but you really do need to have, you know, uh, a business plan in your business plan, some type of strategy related to bringing in the right people, the right talent. Um, here's the thing I say about this because I see this a lot in businesses, the people have been there. Um, a long, long time, and this is maybe contemplating an ESOP. What I, what I want to say about ESOPs want the ESOPs care about people. So if you're an employee of a company that works for, it's going to be converted to ESOP, that means the company cares about you. But sometimes people that are employees, it doesn't mean they should still be employees, right? It doesn't mean that if we do the ESOP, everybody should, no, because the bottom line is if every single employee is, is pulling their weight and is providing the value proposition that they should, then they should absolutely be there. But if you're not, you shouldn't. So the part of that behind the scenes is, is I'm, I'm anticipating if you don't have a strong recruitment strategy, Then something's wrong because you always should be trying to upgrade your, your people, and I, I don't mean you should be um You know, Just continually turning people. If you don't work out exactly, we're gonna get rid of you and, and find something new. I mean, you should be training your people, you should be upgrading them, you should be helping them get to the next level. And You know, and so if you're not doing that, then, um, you know, you're missing something. So as far as the goal of this of of getting the right people in the right seats. And so, So having a recruitment strategy looks like this, a plan of action that really helps you um successfully identify. And attract and hire the best candidate for your open roles, you know, so, um, sometimes people don't know what, what those roles should do. So I'll, I'll just quickly jump back to the idea that I've always thrown out is, is the book Traction by Gina Wickham is phenomenal. about this topic because traction helps you to develop an accountability chart, build the functional responsibilities within your business, and then fill in the positions based on the functional responsibilities of what should be done. So, if that's not the underlying basis of your recruitment strategy, and you can't really know exactly who you want to fill into these roles. Um, so, how are you going about it? So that's another part of your recruitment strategy. Am I Um, posting this, um, on job boards, how active I am in the, you know, the university recruitment process, you know, how am I, you know, what platforms am I using to message out what I'm actually doing. Um, so that's part of it. The other part of it is, is, is how your, um, your process of, you know, I say recruitment, it kind of includes in the process of, of Of using different tools and, and just philosophically how this should work. So, how do you treat your candidates that are possible employees and 11 idea behind this in from a strategy standpoint is and from a process standpoint is really treating your employee candidates as like customers, like prospects to like the, they're just as important as, as a prospect. So, so how I show up to the meeting and, and how I'm respectful of their time and How you know, hospitable are we and what do we do to follow up with them? I think those are all very important, just like you would do with your customers or a very good perspective customer that you might want. Second thing would be is thinking about how I'm using social media and I'm not super good with social media and I think some people, um, my age don't love it, but they, it is, it's a reality and, and I can tell you right now, with people, when you're looking at your recruitment strategy, if people can't find you um on some social media platform, I'll throw out Facebook. I don't, I'm not saying you should use it, but if they can't find you in a sense and see um what the culture of your business is from that point, it, it does weaken your, your possibilities because we're, we're trying to find younger people in our, you know, in the models of what we're trying to create here from a business, or from an employee standpoint. Um, we all know kind of those, those, those people are really looking at a lot of social media platforms. So, So my advice is just hey, make sure you find somebody that in your business that understands social media really well and use that um to promote the culture of your business cause it's, I'm sure if you're listening to this, you got a great culture. Implement an employee referral program. If you don't have one already, um, obviously incentivizing your employees, it could be, it could look like a contest. Um, everybody knows somebody, so if you're not doing that, you should definitely do that. Um, look at your job descriptions. I can tell you we did this a couple of years ago. Our job descriptions were boring and I'm, I'm a partner in a CPA firm. So accounting doesn't have to be boring. And so we rewrote a lot of our job descriptions. Part of that was because we've We have been in a transformational process in our firm and changing um the, the, in the box type of person that you would normally hire in an accounting firm. So, so part of that was really stimulated by the idea that we wanna, we wanna challenge the, the normal type of person we're hiring. And so we, um, for instance, are hiring people that have more of a finance background and not just an accounting background and how they, how they blend into some of the opportunities that we have here. So, In the job description, I think it's gonna be um an opportunity for you to message well what your culture is like, message well like what, you know, the, if you want to be known as a creative workplace that's inviting people to be creative, then I think it needs to show in the way you present your job description. If you want to be known for a very technical business place, then I think it needs to be, um, it needs to be described in those kind of things. So think about dusting that off and making it better, um, or making it more appropriate to what you're really trying to target. Make use of um sponsored jobs that, that stand out. So because there are thousands of job posts on Indeed, um, you know, cause you're just swimming with a lot of other people, the the visibility of your job listing um can decrease over time. So making sure you've um stand out from all of the other noise is gonna be important. Um, have somebody responsible for all of the research that's done when you're when you're doing resume. I know, um, resume research is not my favorite place, but I have people here that will do the work to, to um work through that. So, cause you, what that does is it gives you, um, you gotta be willing to put the work in and um not everybody's just gonna fall on your lap. So you have to be able to research those and make sure you, um, you know, you're, you're working through and qualifying the best candidates in that way. Um, one thing that we've done a lot of, and this has really been successful is just think about, um, not only past candidates that have come and interview, but think also about just to think about the bigger pool, you know, we, we had kept an alumni of the firm, the people that have worked here and went on to other places. Some of those people have come back and actually become very successful, um, in our, in our business. I mean, some of them have come back as partners. So, so that's been a very, um, from a recruitment strategy, strategy, that's been a very good idea for us. Um, looking at the, um, the industry that you have, obviously, you know, being a very visible within your industry is going to be important, whether that be, you know, when you go to trade shows and you're going to, and this might be super obvious to some people, but when you're going to some of these, these venues, um, really networking out well with that, sometimes there's gonna be people that are looking for, you know, other, other positions in in the industries as well. So, so just those are some ideas. Um, I'd finalize the point on recruitment. It's just have a strategy, have it part of your business plan, have it written down so that you can refer back to it as you, as you start thinking about 2022 and and looking at where you're, what you really wanted to accomplish. All right, so now we move over and transition to the idea of, of onboarding. What does onboarding mean? So, basically, I mean, I guess everybody kind of knows, but the onboarding is like, I got a new person. And instead of saying, hey, you know, we've hired you, you're great. We had this wonderful recruitment, what I would call like a courtship of, hey, we're, you're the right person for the job, and they come in, and then everybody goes immediately back to the work, right? So, I'm gonna just say that I think the best onboarding is when you actually have a written process to onboard with the goal in mind of what you want it to look like when that person out, now in a very high level position. Where you're bringing, bring in somebody on the leadership side, you know, that's gonna take at least a year to get them fully onboarded. Certainly within some of the, you know, rank and file positions where you, you know, it's just a matter of getting them to understand systems and people and different things, you know, maybe that's um a month, 3 months, you know, at the most, maybe it can't be more than 3 months really for a, a more of a uh entry-level person, but But when you think about it, have an idea of how much time it should take based on the complexity, and what you want it to look like, again, at the end of the onboarding process. So it, it comes back to this. It's like how many hires, how many new people come in and say they, they were super excited to start the first day, um, and then they got totally disenchanted after that because it was like, it was like oversold to them. Um, you can have the opposite effect and actually have an onboarding process that continues the momentum that you build in a recruitment and That could mean that you're gonna have some, some first-year milestones. Hey, we're gonna have a, a quarterly check-in and, and we're gonna have some, you know, feedback loops that we're gonna build within your, uh, a team of people. Um, you might have a buddy system and, you know, just communication and onboarding is really essential. When you think about how do you communicate with, um, you know, with what they're doing, what they're thinking, and all that. And so it, it sounds like this might get overdone at the same time, I think it's such an important need because the better you do an onboarding, the faster and more efficient the whole process of getting the right people in the right seats is gonna be. So If you do, um, you know, some of the things that are like, when, when you start thinking about, um, The onboarding process, definitely just specifically things like preparing the new hire before start date, training new hire for the tools they're going to use a thorough office orientation meeting and connecting with the team. I mean, these are just basic things, but I'm just gonna throw them out because I think it's just kind of hopefully reminds you of things that you may or may not be doing. Evaluation of onboarding experience by, you know, new employees to just, you know, what they, you know, after they've done that for you, maybe getting their feedback on that. Um, So the, so when the, when you're writing out the process, some of the things that you probably need to ask yourself is when will the onboarding begin and how long will it last? Like I mentioned some general concepts behind that. Um, what sort of impression do you wish to leave with your new hires in the first day? What kind of, what kind of first day should it look like? What role will be, will, will be different that people play in the onboarding? So who's doing what is gonna be part of your process. You might have an HR person. Sometimes the HR person. gets dumped the entire process, like while you're HR you just do all the onboarding. I would advise that you think about what it would be like for you as a new employee to only spend time with the HR person. Um, So kind of the idea behind that is, um, you know, giving, giving them some, um, you know, different people that you might even on at a higher level, maybe you want to include some of the managers or somebody that, that can really step into a a place of affirming that we really do care about the person that we just hired. Uh, some, some things in the onboarding process, I mean, I think clarity, you know, if your business is, is very good at building an annual business plan, and for a company that's going to ESOP, let me just say that you really, you really do need to be, this, this episode is not about business plans, but you really do need to have some kind of business plan. If that business plan can be funneled down. departmentally like with goals. And then those departmental goals can be funneled down to the individuals, um, with, you know, and I'm gonna do another episode on KPIs, but with even kept KPIs or key performance indicators, that would be stuff I would be sharing with, with the new employees as far as, you know, how do you, if I'm a new employee, I want to know, how am I gonna succeed in this place. So it's really important to, you know, to be thinking about like what that looks like and Um, what information is important, um, for the new employee to know about their culture? I mean, how, how does our culture work? Hey, you know, some of the times we talk about culture, we talk about, we've got picnics and we've got parties, and we've got, you know, Halloween contests which we just had. We've got, um, you know, costume contest, we've got a You know, a big Christmas party, and we, we've got all these things that we're doing, um. You know, it's just, it's understanding like that culture from those kind of aspects of it, but really the other side of the work culture, like what does it mean for our work culture? We work hard, you know, we work hard, we play hard. What does it mean? What are our core values when it comes to work culture? Um, the expectations, you know, if you, if you're trying to get people on board and then my advice is just be completely transparent. I mean, and this is, this is probably true more for the recruitment process too, because of You're interviewing and you're hiring people. You want to spell out, hey, this is what, this is what we really truly expect so that there's really no surprises. One of the questions I always ask people in onboarding is, hey, did I, what I tell you through the interview process. Um, did, did that really hold true? Or did, did I say something that, you know, um, was just kind of not, um, you know, whatever, it wasn't really what I, what we thought. So, um, so asking those questions is important. Um, you know, just kind of, you know, walking them through uh the very, you know, from a beginning to end. Um, one of the things I like to do with some people at night, maybe not on the beginning stages of the onboarding, but as far as onboarding is, is just what's the big picture, you know, what are we all about? What are we, what are we trying to accomplish? Um, so, so those are all things that I think are, are, you know, aspects of onboarding that I think are important. Um. When you, when you start thinking about this now, I wanna, I wanna, um, get to then the idea behind this next concept, which is, so we've covered recruitment, we've covered the um the onboarding process. And so really all we have now time for, which is, um, I'd save it for last because I think it is a difficult thing to do, but it's, it's gonna be the idea behind um firing people. Now, first off, when I say firing people, let's say terminate or we can call it, um, you know, we're letting you go. Um, I don't mean people, um. You know, I think, I think it's obvious, some companies, they, they, they go through this process, um, annually and, you know, they're, they're, you know, I, I don't mean it to be like, hey, we're um firing like anybody that doesn't, does, doesn't measure up, an ounce. I mean, I, I like to do as much as we can to get people um enough time to, to see if they're a good fit in the business. But I do think that some companies um struggle with doing this and letting people go when they need to. And so, so the first part of this is just to say, all right, we, we understand that it is hard sometimes to um to identify. What it looks like to um work through that process. And so, um, so before we even start about the, the way you should go about doing it, I just wanted to kind of start out talking about the identification of the people that aren't really there, you know, that should be there or there there shouldn't be there. So part of the right seats, right people, right seats is, is, I might have somebody in that is the wrong person. In a in a very important seat, right? And I need to, in order to change my organization, I'm gonna have to pick that person out of that seat. Um, maybe I can, maybe I can identify that and say, you know what, this person would be better suited in, in a different department. They would be better suited doing something different for the company. So maybe it doesn't necessarily need to be, you know, quote unquote a firing, but there does need to be A um a process of identifying. So one of the processes that we use, um, again, comes out of the traction book, but it's, it's get it when it, have it. And get it when I have it comes out from this idea that it's, it's yes, yes, yes, on each of these. So does my person that works for me, do they get what it takes to do the job? The second is, and if they do, then great, something if that's a no, if they don't get what it takes to the job, is it possible that I can train them to get it? Like, do you get what you're supposed to do? The second one is, do they have the skill set to do it? So the first is, do I understand what I'm supposed to do? The second is, do they have the skill set to manage what um What's what's really required of them. Um, so some people, they, you know, the one thing I see a lot of times is that people get promoted, and the promotion itself is really, it's designed to stretch them. It should, promotion should stretch people, right? So they're, it's OK for them to struggle a little bit, but deep down inside, you know, whether or not they really have the ability to do what we've just, you know, helped or promoted them into to doing. You know, brand new person, you really don't know if they have it, the skill set until they actually start doing the job, right? Um. So you have to ask yourself that question. Do you get it? and do you have it? And then the third would be, Do they want it? And I think it's eye, eye-opening when you actually start looking at some of these things because I can see in my career some smart people that actually get it, and they actually really have the skill set, but they just personality wise, they just don't want the job. And so, um, you're like, why would you do something like that? But people sometimes you just don't understand, but if so, So the get it when it have it just says, really, if there's, if there is a no in any one of those categories. You need to um identify the reasons behind it. clarify that. And so we do this as a leadership group once a year in our retreat and then really ask the question and what's our plan. Now, we are very, very compassionate people. So we, the, the farthest thing we wanna do, we don't wanna let anybody go, but um we may go through an inter like a probation period with somebody if we're in a, a no situation, like, hey, you know, we're gonna be working through this with you and really help you. There Um, there might be situations where when in the leadership meeting, you're like, hey, this, this definitely isn't uh that scenario, leader, you know, a training situation or a mentoring program isn't really gonna help anything. And so, I would just encourage you at that point when you know that that's the case, then, then have the courage to go through with it. And um, you know, part of that means is, uh, you know, going through the paperwork correctly. So you may have not identified, like, let's just say the issue was the employee has really not performed well. So they just don't get it or they didn't have the skill set to do it and they haven't really performed well. But there's literally nothing in their file that shows up, you know, the right thing, which is I, I gave you a progress report, I showed you what you, I said to you as the manager, what you're not doing what you need to do. And they've understood that, and there needs to be some type of documentation in that. So, so definitely some of that needs to be made sure you, you've done that. But assuming all that's in place, then it's time to go and, and have the firing. And the firing really looks like this, you know, you're Um, these are just, I think things that you should think about when you're doing it. Um, You know, basically, before you do the firing, you just wanna get everything in order before you do it, right? So you wanna make sure, as you did, like I talked about the documentation, um, you know, what does it look like from a technology standpoint and from a security standpoint and, and make sure you have processes and systems in place to make sure you don't just do something and then realize, hey, we, we're not secure or covered in that process. Um, choose a time and place and this next, this next one is just kind of the idea that Um, is it better to, to let somebody go on a Friday? Um, during lunchtime, um, at the end of the day, at the beginning of the day, um, is it better, you know, and I, and it's really kind of, this is a, this is just something that I think you have to choose what you feel best about. Um. I think that the, the best place to do it is, is first off in a, in your conference room where you have multiple people, um, HR should definitely be a part of the, the, the meeting. Um, I believe that the, the primary supervisor should be in the meeting. Um, but I think at the beginning of the week, because going into a weekend and losing your job is not, um, is not fun. So maybe, What I'm recommending really is just like a Monday, um, you know, and I, and I, I would say for me, going through this would be more towards the end of the day. Um, just so kind of, there's not like, hey, what what just happened? So more towards the end of the day is, is normal. So, choose your proper time and place, make sure it works for you. Um, When you, when you do call the meeting, obviously there's gonna be like, oh no, I'm meeting with HR so there's gonna be a little bit of uh anxiety I imagine by the employee, um. So you wanna just make sure that you've, you've set up the tone of that and try to do the best you can, um, just to get, to get the meeting done where you're, you know, you're not, everybody's not rushing into it and making it like some weird thing. It just needs to be done in a very professional, in a professional way. Uh, all right, so when you're firing people, um, the best thing that I would say is that you want to focus on the facts, but be really like quick about it. So, um, just basically saying, hey, um, this is where we've done this. We've tried to, you know, we tried to work this out. It's not working, we've decided to let you go. And then you're, and then that's it. I mean, you're not gonna, you're not gonna want to elongate that into a long conversation. Um, You know, I, I mentioned this before, make sure that all your documentation is in order before that and then you don't have any, any loose ends there. And you have a process to um follow up whether or not the documentation on a whole harmless type of policy where you would say, hey, this is what our, um our settlement is, or not settlement, this is what our severance is for you. Um, and this, this, we've already calculated your Your PTO time and here's your, you know, here's your pay for all of that, so that's really clear. Um, the next thing is don't do it alone. Don't go into um a termination ever by yourself. Um. So, I mean, I think that's an obvious thing, but, you know, you never know. Some people just, they have a lot to do and they try to fit fit it into the day, but don't do it alone. Um, 11 aspect of this is, is there should be um absolutely no real surprise in this because I, have you ever been in, been in this type of situation and, and the employees like, I didn't see this coming at all. And you're like, really? Because we had all these memos and these discussions. I can't imagine that you didn't. So they might say that, but, but really your goal is to make sure that you don't, there, you really don't create any major surprises in it. Um, I kind of mentioned keep it short. Um, don't, don't get into a discussion about the whole situation. Um, just go quick to the point. It doesn't, you don't fit in the organization, um, you, you know, we, well, not, not, you basically, this isn't working out, um, based on what we're, what we need in the position, and that's, I think that's enough to be said. Um, obviously keep it very private. Um, people that need to know, need to know, but other people don't. And then, um, the, you know, the communication of this is gonna have to be communicated in a way that also protects the person that's being let go. Um, definitely have someone escort the employee out so that there's not any, any discussion or, or issue of, of, you know, going back and creating some havoc. So, um, if they have to get all their stuff, have somebody escort them and be with them during the process of, of letting them out. Um, Definitely, um, having some type of, of process to um look at, you know, Any feedback that they might give, it might be helpful, but it, a lot of times if you're letting somebody go, you know, instead of somebody leaving where you do a normal exit interview, um, it's more of just, you know, in general, you just wanna make sure you've, you've treated them, you know, professionally and all that. So really, um, those are just some some ideas and topics to kind of spur you along and all of those recruiting and onboarding and um and going through the firing process are really a big part of, of finding and, and creating and building the right people in the right seats. So. So hopefully that helps you as we close out this, I wanted to kind of end with um uh this part of the, of the song. So hold on a second. Jo Do do do do do do do do do do. I love that drum beat, man. Like, that's how it feels when you get the right people, the right seats. So, um, just wanna encourage you to do that. Everyone, keep on, keeping on and we'll see you next time on this journey.