Loading content…
Be the first to curate this episode — add a title and quick summary.
Add title and summaryNo information listed yet. Be the first to add who benefits from this content.
Suggest who benefitsNo detailed summary yet. Suggest a summary to help the community.
Suggest summaryNo questions listed yet. Be the first to add a question for this topic.
Suggest questionWhat are the alternatives to an ESOP? One is the EOT or employee ownership trust. This presents some particular differences to the ESOP that might be part of the consideration early in your journey to an esop. Chris Michael is the founder of EOT advisors and helps selling shareholders review this as an option to the ESOP. Chris is a very knowledge professional with an academic background as well.
Transcript provided by the publisher.
<p><!--block-->[0:10] Everyone this is the ESOP guy we are on a journey to an ESOP, this podcast for those that have not yet listen to any others before this is your first one is a resource that we've created to help people understand, what Employee Stock ownership plans are and how they work and whether or not that's something that you might want to use in your own business strategy for a lot of ways succession planning exit planning a growth strategy, how do you get your key people more involved in your company, I'm so this so This podcast has a we've been airing for this our fourth season and there are other episodes if you do have an interest in looking at that deeper go to our website at journey to an ESOP.com. <br> So this morning I'm super excited about the topic that we're going to go through it's going to be on any OTS employee ownership trust and today we get to interview Chris Michael, he is has established the very first Financial Service Company that advises on setting up e OTS he's the he's the expert, in the industry and I'm super excited to get to do this with with Chris so before we do that Chris I just want to kind of thank you for joining our podcast. <br> And the one the first thing I wanted to ask you is what is your favorite movie and why. <br> <br> [1:32] I will first fill up so glad to be here it's an honor to be on the show I also want to just just too. <br> Sort of you know clear the deck here I want to start out by saying I'm a huge fan of the ESOP I always say this that conference is you know I wrote a 300 plus page book which will hopefully be coming out soon wow arguing that esops are the. <br> Best thing since sliced bread you know when it comes to employee ownership, but at the same time as we'll discuss today I certainly think is a place I don't roll for E 0 TS now on the Movie question I think I have to confess that I'm a, kind of in between a Gen X and Millennial so I'm a straight up and down Star Wars guy no I. <br> I saw they were in the first Star Wars in the womb or from the womb and then Empire was kind of like my first. <br> First movie that I remember seeing and my first words my mom used to say where Darth Vader so I love it yeah so cool yeah so just quick on that. <br> With when Han Solo gets killed in that one scene I can't remember which one it was. <br> In the in the in the kind of the newer yeah than they were in like a yeah never ate or something eight or nine yeah did you see that coming. <br> <br> [2:52] No that didn't didn't didn't see it coming and I didn't either I never know I had actually never know when something like that's going to happen and I was like what and then Chewbacca's like going nuts on them you know, and nuts that not only does Hans Solo die but Carrie Fisher's is a resurrected yeah actually yeah or this for the role which is I mean just I know CGI, I think so it was pretty cool all right well cool I think that's I think there's a lot of people that love Star Wars so I'm sure they are, before we get into the eot like what is it and all that which is I'm number I'm just so excited about this podcast day because, I talked to so many people that Aesop's in this is such a good option for people and my Approach is always been, you know ESOP may not be right for you I mean I don't know as we go through it and I shouldn't know honestly as you go through this you know the kind of dialogue that we have with people so I think this will be very helpful for people to understand that. <br> Tell us a little bit about your background like how did you get involved with the eot throwing the old advisory type of services that you provide. <br> <br> [3:57] So I got into the employee ownership of space sort of broadly about a dozen years ago and you know fell in love with the feel you know found a lot of camaraderie and you know among the professional service providers in the space, and just pursued it from every angle I could you know sort of find you know so. <br> Decided to get a law license because I thought that would be helpful in the employee ownership space I just you know I got a PhD in studied the history of employee on businesses in the United States that that's that's the book why not just get a piece all right just get one. <br> Yeah it was a little bit was the motivation axure and and. <br> <br> [4:42] And and started you know helping companies right off the very early on as a practitioner. <br> Somewhere along a very early on in that kind of you know process I was concerned about the perpetuity of employee ownership. <br> At the company level. <br> And so that was a the result of a set of questions around maintaining employee ownership at a company that's already transitioned over that I kind of brought into lost. <br> <br> [5:15] Me and and took out of law school with big study sort of answer those questions properly for me or I wasn't able to get answers like permite you know Corporation Professor for example and so round. <br> <br> [5:30] That's a 15 2015 20 14 2015 I started to kind of figure out some answers for myself and what I was kind of been inventing the employment ship trust out of whole cloth in my mind that I published an article on tax notes. <br> In 2015 one side written that article I wrote the article that I really wanted to write. <br> I will type in 16 and it was in print in January 17 in the American Bar Association publication probate property. <br> And that's the piece I'm you know where it really does a comparison between the ESOP and the importance of trust and by that time I think I'd realized that what I what I thought I was inventing out of whole cloth. <br> Was the main structure for employee ownership in the UK and and of course you know g g not all is a friend of mine and a mentor of mine and he's in the, employee ownership trip trust person from the UK and also oddly you know I was just wrapping up my book at that time and. <br> I discovered that the OT had been used in the distant past in US history. <br> Not you know not known on the scene today over the last couple decades and the us but you go back to nineteen you know. <br> 1929 or whatever the most popular. <br> <br> [6:49] Employee on business in the country in the US was in eot company also. <br> Little bit that's a little bit about my background thank you that's pretty cool and so you're also so you have a PhD you're also an author. <br> And you also are so she added with Rutgers right. <br> <br> [7:09] Yes so the the the academic part of my life you know also wasn't has been an important part and been a it's been a real honor of the years to participate, in the fellowship program of the institute for the study of employee ownership and profit sharing which is run out of Rutgers University but it's really a virtual Fellowship that includes academics from around the country and now we're on the world. <br> So got to meet a lot of practitioners there sort of senior practitioners in the field, you know folks like Cory Rosen John Mankey, also got to meet many of the senior scholars in the field as well have been studying the are the field for you know half a century, and you know as luck would have it I'm a New York New Jersey guy in the area and actually was able to. <br> Find the. <br> <br> [8:08] Professor job at Rutgers and the working it was well as the Director of The Institute now. <br> That's awesome and it's great because you're all so you're practicing and then you're also teaching and you're helping people understand that so that's a nice way to just give back I think for sure, so so great now let's kind of get into like if people are listening they're like okay let's get to the point what is an e OT obvious it stands for employee ownership trust right as opposed to Employee Stock ownership plan so we have those, two distinctions how would you describe what it is in concisely I guess as much as you can. <br> <br> [8:46] So I think there are two things I would say so one is that an employee ownership trust while there's a lot of flexibility and how one structures and employee ownership Trust. <br> The kind of I would say a default or typical structure would be one where the trust the eot holds somewhere all of the shares of the company on behalf of most or all of the employees of the company, for some of the listeners that definition should sound strikingly. <br> Similar to the definition that the NCO gives for employee ownership right, it's just that with the eot the default or typical structure would be that those Shares are held as a group, on behalf of most rolled employees as opposed to Aesop's where you have individualized stock accounts and that's the real, high-level difference between the OT and a nice up again that's a kind of a default or a typical structure as we proceed in Breaking this down I think. <br> You know become clear that it's not so simple and that there's actually a lot of a lot of that you can do in terms of creating or providing for individualized stock accounts or individualized Equity accounts. <br> Seniority now the second thing I would say is that in eot at a high level. <br> <br> [10:02] It's it's important to shape just like a nice app hmm you know what is employee ownership it's shit three things it's sharing the financial Rewards. <br> It's having a corporate governance of the company directed to the best interests of the employees and it's having a great ownership culture so you get those three things with an ESOP. <br> You get those three things with any OT I think that's a great Point that's that is a great point and that's where it's like, I think it's one of those and this is why I want to do this so much because I think every option that people have to have I'd like just for them to consider it and is this may not this may be the best option for them, so I think that's a good description and to add on to like the ESOP part so the ESOP it's going to create an employee stock ownership Trust. <br> As it adds an actual entity that holds the stock just like the employee ownership trust is there both Trust. <br> And one is going to work differently than the other which will get into as we talk through the way it's all set up but let me ask you kind of another just high-level so when we think about what it is, why would an the owner of the business which is pretty much who we're talking to these are the decision-makers right why would the owner of the business look. <br> At a the benefits of an eot and say hey that's going to work better for me or what have you experienced with that in terms of comparing the two. <br> <br> [11:25] So boy that that sets us up I think for the next you know couple of hours maybe but right right yeah. <br> Let's let's see or maybe a couple of reasons you've seen hey this is yeah reasons that it's some high-level reasons try not to get too far into the weeds right now but some high-level reasons you know one. <br> <br> [11:48] You know every business owner that I've met you know very creative individuals very very independent you know, want to do things their way sometimes perhaps off and their motivation for becoming a business owner the first places they don't want somebody telling them what to do and they're passionate people like they're normally very passionate yeah. <br> <br> [12:09] Yeah yeah and. <br> And and bold and and they're not afraid to innovate and strike out and do things differently and so a lot of folks. <br> That kind of steer towards the eot is they they don't want the kind of pre I don't want to say. <br> <br> [12:33] Prepackaged because that almost sounds like something negative about that I don't think that's a necessarily a negative thing about the ESOP but. <br> They want that flexibility and the freedom to design the employment or program the way they want to do it and they also. <br> <br> [12:52] Perhaps prefer to not have a lot of the kind of oversight involvement government regulation kind of government stepping into their company again that's sounds. <br> Sort of - I don't know that that is a negative thing to have government oversight but in any case a lot of my business owners they sort of prefer to kind of maybe maybe this is another maybe a third reason sort of prefer to keep things simple. <br> <br> [13:19] And we'd like to be able to you're just keeping things simple flexible not a lot of oversight regulation you know also not a lot of the transaction itself you don't need as the practitioner. <br> <br> [13:33] The petitioners in your audience know you don't with any step you need several firms, more kind of collaborating as as we say in these upfield you even need a quarterback to conduct yeah coordinate these different these different players right, and and it's just much simpler with it because you don't need so many so many different ones working to close the transaction I think those are all good points and, um when we as we as we kind of go in because we can't like spend two hours thinking about the wise cuz I know you're right there's a there's a million, like scenarios that people have and we won't we won't get through all of it if we don't just a high level but. <br> Thinking about the owners I dunno if we just hovered on the control issue I do know that there's, a deep sense of anxiety for some people to have built this company and then have to go into this like governance and I sell a controlling ownership on an ESOP, you're going to have a board of directors and you're going to have an independent at least one independent board member and so that that is a point of anxiety for somebody there's also a point of anxiety for hey I've got a trustee, that is going to be you know in technically speaking for an ESOP they're going to be monitoring the behavior of the board. <br> <br> [14:51] And I've done so many episodes on just that idea behind you know what what does that actually entail and all that you know and there's a reality to it and then there's a perception of the reality and I think that's really kind of what people get get caught up on. <br> For me I think one of the things you said is that you have all these people you know we're going to get into how this works but all these people involved in an ESOP transaction you know so. <br> You know as we think about that I'm the sell-side advisor we're going to have a you know an attorney on my side with the client we're going to have a trustee their valuation firm and another attorney. <br> And hey then let's throw the bank involved and then they're going to have their attorney so at the end of the day we have a call with 15 people to get this thing closed and that's a reality it's it is a little bit of a, a zoo in a sense of pulling all that together making sure everybody you know you stay on track. <br> And it's complex it can be very complex any Ortiz somewhat straightforward maybe more simple and, I'm gonna guess that this is probably my in my head this is a question but also a comment I'm going to guess that the cost of an e OT is going to be significantly lower than an ESOP. <br> Yeah yeah the cost is going to be a fraction of an ESOP typically to implement. <br> <br> [16:07] And then also the ongoing peace yeah we're going to be a fraction of the cost of a nice up to maintain kind of comparing the two I think you're right I think overall if you looked at the whole industry. <br> In the ESOP space the you know the deals themselves because I and you and I talked about this before we got on the call I think the deals themselves. <br> In my opinion when they get put together with, because there is let's just I'm going to say it on my side because this doesn't apply the E OTS but in the ESOP space I believe that there is a lot of money to be made for advisors. <br> <br> [16:44] And especially the investment banking firms and they do charge a fortune to do an ESOP deal one and I think that there are but that's not every deal and I think that, you know if you work through the deal like you should you're going to have a very reasonable valuation model at the front end, and you're going to go through that so in my deals I would say I would generally not be planning really for litigation because we're going to follow all the kind of core steps of creating a sustainable ESOP company good eating a you know the right team to make sure that we got the right people in place, so but I do think that that's part of the if we took that the whole industry and say hey that's the bell curve I think that is something that's true about it realistically I'm and unfortunately. <br> But I also I don't want to like scare people think oh you're going to definitely get out you're going to be sued if you do a nice oxxo 100% totally totally agree to and I like the way you described it as kind of a bell curve right that's right there are going to be yeah there's the norm. <br> And then there's you know sort of. <br> <br> [17:47] Folks that are maybe not not not entirely outliers but certainly on and one end of the curve absolutely with that really so so getting into the the we got to the kind of the why and I know we turn to touched on some I think some really good points, how does an e OT get put together when you get down to like the. <br> Overall like if somebody's going to do it like what would you what would you they said hey Chris tell us how we put this together I mean and you know timing made certain and elements of it yeah. <br> Great great great question feel better I appreciate that so you know. <br> <br> [18:26] It my firm eot advisors eot advisors.com we. <br> Basically gets you to a Neo close any OT a sale to any OT you know from A to Z it is easy to a Neo T it is either we help structure the transaction. <br> <br> [18:44] We help you design the employee ownership program we provide evaluation. <br> <br> [18:49] And we helped get you the documentation that you need to close the transaction my clients already have a CPA. <br> <br> [18:59] They will work with they don't need to hire an Especial CPA to close. <br> They usually already have a lawyer that they work with they don't need to hire a special lawyer to close the transaction. <br> <br> [19:12] I don't think their CPAs are really charging them. <br> Really anything for a few phone calls right and I don't think their lawyers are charging them anything beyond you know sort of nominal peas for reviewing documentation. <br> So we can do that we can close any OT and that's it you don't need to hire other, anybody else I mean sometimes it might make sense to get a spell you know if they already have an estate attorney that the if the seller has an estate attorney but they've already. <br> Engaged for their personal estate plans it might make sense to hop on a call with them just to make sure all of the kind of. <br> <br> [19:57] Sort of yeah eyes are dotted and T's are crossed in terms of how the proceeds will flow into their estate. <br> <br> [20:07] But that's it and we can close any OT. <br> Some clients that work with were they were motivated to close not be not because there any any any kind of external factors motivating a sale, but just as they were ready to do it right I thought about it they had you know talk to a million and one advisors. <br> They you know gone down the road on the east side path a bit they've gone down the road in terms of other possibilities. <br> And and they knew they were convinced that the eot was the sale so once they made the decision to do the OT hmm and they wanted to just get it done we were able to close and under two months. <br> Yeah so that's much quicker obviously yeah my much quicker and you know that's not. <br> Typical let me typically I think folks want to you know take their time with it and we can be very leisurely then about planning the closing date, I'm just a sync well with their schedule or their accounting practices or the counter their fiscal year. <br> So you know six months would be common okay but again that's at a pretty leisurely clip. <br> <br> [21:23] So let me so let me ask you a couple of so in the transaction itself they are selling their stock obviously the stock gets from the selling shareholder into the eot trust right that's part of the transaction. <br> <br> [21:37] Sure at the end of the transaction and the shares are going to get into the trust now how we structure the transaction that's going to be, you know that's going to really be a case-by-case basis that's part of our services okay but ultimately the the shares are going to get into trust okay. <br> Are they are they. <br> <br> [21:57] Did the banks finance a portion of that or did you have Bank financing involves though that's a good question Phillip you know I. <br> <br> [22:06] When potential. <br> Clients call me and and some of them I've been interested to discover that a good number of potential clients that that reach me have already kind of. <br> <br> [22:26] The fact that a lot of employers ownership transactions are seller finance, yeah and that's kind of the way of the world and on the east side of things and on many transactions not not all of course. <br> <br> [22:45] And that it works out very well actually right are the Simplicity of doing it like anyways right yeah again not having other. <br> Party's kind of kind of involved in your company right I mean a lot of. <br> Business ownership come to me don't even I mean they have to tell you I think that a lot of the business owners that come come to me that they have a line of credit of course. <br> <br> [23:11] Not they don't use it I mean they just don't have any don't carry in debt they really debt verse migrate and so to be right at the point of sale. <br> Going to try to pull out of the business today and kind of bring in an outsider that they're kind of you know data to it's sort of the opposite direction. <br> From where they went ahead and and you know I tell a lot of the potential clients. <br> Just before the pandemic I had gotten all of these series licenses and had stepped up started to set myself up. <br> To you know with Securities licenses right the the kind of bring in outside Capital to transactions. <br> And again my clients are really weren't interested, so I I'm still I'm still keeping an open mind there hmm right I think there's certainly a lot of potential for involved in the bank financing for these transactions as well as private Capital financing for these transactions. <br> I haven't ruled it out but to date my sellers are really been motivated to to. <br> <br> [24:23] To do seller financing okay I mean it makes sense so thinking about the so you have in the transaction you're going to have the. <br> Company now does have let's just call it seller note seller financing so now we have debt on the balance sheet right just like you have. <br> Pain if we just take an ESOP deal and once it's all seller financing so we have this note that the company owes back to the individual owner of the shares, is that how then basically now the company is going to pay them out over whatever amortization schedule that that works for well it's. <br> It's seller financing so again how its structured will be on a case-by-case basis but you know broadly speaking sure the company just like an ESOP that companies, going to be paying back the seller over time over right exactly on the schedule yeah. <br> So and as we get into this the and this is where he stops get a lot more complicated because we're going to with an ESOP will have those established seller notes as what we call the outside notes. <br> <br> [25:26] For the company and the trust we have these inside notes that, actually that's how we actually release this year's to the individuals in your case the stock goes in there and in the way I could I think I understood this is that the individual the employees basically get to to have a profit sharing plan is that, how it works out so how does this employee benefit from an e OT is yeah great great great question fill up so right again the the, typical or default structure from a Neosporin eot that and this is you know what's been done for many years in the UK right, I think it's again important to highlight that this is the main has been the main form of employee ownership in the UK for. <br> <br> [26:10] A hundred years of course it's been growing substantially in popularity since since Graham was able to introduce and and get this bill passed offering tax benefits for the eot. <br> But. <br> The most part they offer profit-sharing plans that's that's the way in which financial rewards are shared among the among the employees okay from among the employee honors, again I don't want to there are some individuals. <br> <br> [26:46] In you know some listeners right now are going to think well that's great it's so simple. <br> You know for the Professionals in your and your among among your listenership. <br> They're going to say great you know they're going to we don't have these repurchase obligations we have to plan for wow that's going to be a load of stress off of the cfo's shoulders up and the company shoulders to have to plan for those obligations. <br> But then they're going to be others in your listenership who are going to clench up. <br> <br> [27:18] And they're going to say you know but Equity is what it's all about you know and capital gain is what it's all about Sir now of course kind of. <br> <br> [27:29] In parentheses, sort of here you know of course e-stop benefits you know when you get paid out for many stop you're not actually getting taxed at a capital gains level its taxes personal incomes that's, sidebar there for the employee right right the employee right. <br> <br> [27:51] But but the the high-level answer is that you we are free. <br> To structure in equity accounts. <br> <br> [28:02] With the eot and there's any number of ways to do it I mean a simple way to do it would be to have the shares held in the eot but then use some kind of synthetic Equity outside of the UT, of course you could also do shares in the eot and shares outside of people T yeah so. <br> <br> [28:18] There are countless ways and do that it just depends on what the best strategy is for the company, and what the appetite is for the company but I just don't want anybody to walk away thinking this is just profit sharing that's the sort of limits of imagination of the eot yeah good good point now and I think that's where Again part of it is I'm just getting educated on this as well so I'm just kind of like what I heard so I think that's important, can can you get a scribe then as you mentioned the eot has it as a tax benefit like what is that how does how does that work, and I'll that's the UK don't want to write it down there's a tax benefit we don't have a special tax benefit in the US for the eot and I don't know that we really need a special tax benefit in, that's it maybe another longer kind of in the weeds discussion yeah okay but but they granted a tax benefit in the UK they don't have the tradition, in the UK that we have of the ESOP know they don't ya you know tens of thousands of companies selling to boy ownership over half a century I mean it's just nothing not no other country has employee ownership at the scale that we have it in the US or really lucky here. <br> <br> [29:29] For sure I'm to have but that tradition here. <br> And so I think they might have needed a little kind of Kickstart or a little sort of jump start to the employee ownership yeah that face there that makes sense yeah I think that is we and I want to just stop to make the point to because again it's really. <br> <br> [29:50] For what we're talking about with the audience is understanding what eot and how it compares to an ESOP so with an ESOP and this gets thrown around a lot but I mean Super General the tax benefits are very incredible there's nothing like the tax benefits of an ESOP I mean that's, that's the truth of it when you compare it and you do pay for it we talked about the complexity of an ESOP transaction the reap you know Chris had mention repurchase liability issues as we go an ESOP is a qualified Benefit Plan. <br> And because of that as an s-corporation though the company becomes tax-free and that's tremendous when you take pre-tax dollars. <br> Pay off the owners the owners debt that gives a lot more cash flow that subsidized essentially by the IRS to pay off that debt for the company have. <br> A sustainability that otherwise it'd be paying after tax you know to do that on the C Corp side the tax benefit for an individual is the 1042, so they get to defer the capital gains tax on the transaction again there's nothing in the IRS code that even touches this these two these two things that are just phenomenal and so that is one of the reasons that I'm pretty sure. <br> <br> [31:02] There's so much attraction to the ESOP but what we're trying to illustrate today is like, this c0t you might be paying taxes and have you don't have those benefits but there's a lot of other Pro there's pros and cons to both and I just want to be completely fair about that like that's and that's why you just have to sort through, the both of those as you start thinking about what's the best thing for everybody involved in I think for both eot is a nice apps. <br> I think Chris and I are both in this in the same ballpark it's a holistic plan, we care about the selling shareholder but we care about the company we care about the employees we care about the key managers, indirectly we care about the communities that these companies serve keeping this employee-owned company means that that they're not going to sell to a strategic or private equity and you know and some of the things that we can kind of get caught up with. <br> And then ultimately that benefits not just the community that benefits the customers and so it's a bigger it's a much bigger plan I think both of them will accomplish the same things it's just there's these two roads and so that I just wanted to make that clear clarification as we think about the difference between the eot. <br> <br> [32:14] In the ESOP so anything you would add to that I just want to make sure that that was clear, absolutely absolutely agree pile of you know the the S Corp and secret benefits Bernice up are phenomenal and it's really a matter of walking down that kind of you know. <br> You know it sort of decision tree as to whether or not the hose benefits really you know you know offset the benefits of maybe the Simplicity flexibility of any OT yeah that's right absolutely, tell me a little bit like because you're you're kind of like you said you're the. <br> To establish a company that advises on the OTS I think that's pretty incredible like what first off you know if we go back to that like you obviously saw the opportunity the need in the marketplace for this right I mean that's why you did it. <br> Why is there not more po tease out there I mean just is it because of Education or what do you think that is. <br> <br> [33:13] That's a great question Fill Up So my answer to this is always, that in 1956 there was a nuclear power plant in a bowtie and blue Kelso who you know did the first ESOP transaction yeah it's just been you know. <br> <br> [33:33] You know, him and his wife Patricia had her they were they were proselytizing the ESOP or two decades before yeah before the ESOP was introduced into federal law through Arisa, I think history could have gone a different different way you know there are just these you know there's. <br> <br> [33:56] It's so many factors that go into why did the why did the you know us go down the individualized stock approach to to employee ownership as when the UK did the the Moto E OT approach. <br> <br> [34:11] Cal 7 header we're proselytizing this for two decades it got introduced into a Rissa you know Corey Rose in an N CEO and John manky and thank you Miss associate state, they started you know really getting the word out there about the ESOP for decades and and there was just a point of I think no return there where a whole community and I really look up to these folks, I really think of them all as Heroes really sure yeah we're definitely standing on their shoulders with and I interviewed Corey I mean he kind of led the whole charge on the 1042 legislation you know, they're mean that's phenomenal I mean so yeah I agree with that and, you know and again I'm my goal here is to help people know that there's more more out there you know and right because it's not. <br> At the end of the day you know we want to help people to get into the right type of program they where they feel comfortable where they feel like they've done what they should have done in if we're good advisors, that's what we do whether or not yeah you know my philosophical approaches. <br> You know if you're not happy at the end of all of this then I didn't do my job I mean if you're by people aren't happy and then I didn't do my job and if they fit better in that space, then then they should do it right and at the end of the day I think that they're super prop big problems with. <br> <br> [35:33] Just pure Financial buying of companies because it's. <br> You know and at its level the problem I think with it is that there's there's only one dimension there only somebody's thinking about like what is my multiple how much money can I get out of this and then. <br> What they've built as a company becomes subject to the financial decisions that. <br> <br> [35:55] Maybe good but a lot of times if you're only making a decision with only one dimension in mind. <br> It's probably not a good I mean look at your life like look at your family and look at your kids and look at your everything it's not life is doesn't work that way so that's why I think these approaches, are becoming more popular because people are Awakening to this idea that there that life is bigger than just money, right and there's more there's more going on than that so, I know that's a little more philosophical as we kind of get closer to the end here but I just thought that that would be something I think both Chris and I kind of probably share that same thought process yeah completely agree absolutely. <br> So as we kind of close out like is there anything lasted comments you would say for people and I'd love to plug what you guys do if you're wanting to share, how to get people get ahold of you so you know, thanks so much fill up again it's a real honor to be here with you and talk about these issues with you, I think we're absolutely kind of looking for the same thing here and sort of building employee ownership honoring the work that came before us in building employee ownership and just kind of continuing this tradition in the United States. <br> <br> [37:08] I would welcome a conversation with anybody in your audience who is thinking about possibly doing any OT and what the merits of sailed to any OT might be. <br> We just you know like a nice app we really work on a transaction basis we want to help you close any OT so we're happy to have preliminary, you know meetings for free just to see if this even makes sense, as a road head down and only if it really kind of makes sense for you would we even think about talking about an engagement so you know I feel free to invite everyone who's might be interested in a sale to any of T2, check out our website eot advisors about cam we've got articles up there we've got videos with past clients you can see some of the other transactions we've been involved in yeah so I get what I heard you say is kind of check out their website, advisors in that they're available to talk to you you know my thing on the closure is just. <br> You know in the early in this is called journey to an ESOP like this whole program is about your like where people start is conceptualizing what's the best fit for you, and you know I've sent people to Chris I don't even know if you know if you knew who they were but I people talk to me and I'm like well you should talk to Chris you know because I know you're the guy that, people should talk to and so I think for us we would just. <br> <br> [38:32] I'm going to put your your link on the website our website to just so people can commit better find you I'd love to put your articles on there too just to kind of as an informational piece that people can find that answer quick, so they don't search Forever you know so I love that you can do you know free advice I think that's really helpful for people, especially the very early conceptual stage like a know which direction should I go to get this on the table or off the table depending on what they're what they're really looking to do so. <br> <br> [39:03] But great well thank you again for joining us so as we close out today just consider as you think about your journey to an ESOP what's out there as we've as we've gone through that and we will see you on our next step on this journey to an ESOP. </p>
About Journey to an ESOP & Beyond
ESOPs are gaining traction. In the "Journey to an ESOP & Beyond” podcast, Phillip Hayes explains the process of the ESOP transaction and addresses ESOPs from a business owner’s perspective. The "ESOP Guy" illuminates the simplicity of ESOPs as he debunks common misconceptions that ESOPs are immensely costly and complicated.
People who have contributed edits to this page.