Episode 069 - Innovating on Organizational Structures at Every Segment of the Capital Stack, with Dr. Astrid Scholz of Armillaria and Zebras Unite Co-op

My girl gave me your. Welcome back to the ownership economy. In episode 69, Jahd sits down with Doctor Astrid Schultz, an ecological economist and social entrepreneur, to discuss how her career arc has cut across governance and ownership and the resulting innovations she and her teams have delivered. Along the way, we cover ecological economics and how it values systems and people in addition to profits. Why the current org structures were not a fit for her and how she and her co-founders innovated on the Zebras Unite co op, and the innovation they've spurred to deliver more capital and social enterprises at every level, from idea to see to series A and beyond. It's a valuable episode for any entrepreneur considering how to start a new venture outside of the traditional VC model. We hope you enjoy. Hey, thanks for joining us today, Doctor Schultz. You can call me Astrid. Oh, excellent. So, well, we'll give you, we'll just give you Doctor Astrid Schultz, your full title. Um great. So, one, I think I'm super excited to have you on. This is one I've been looking forward to for a long time just because we don't really have anyone who has a combination of your background and practical experience. And uh I don't think we've talked with anyone who quite has it all on that front. You know, just, I'm already kind of giving away the podcast, but, you know, we're gonna get into a bit of ecological economics, a little bit of cooperatives, a little bit of capital formation. It's all super interesting to me, so I'm super excited to have you on today. Well, I'm glad to be here. All right, well, let's let's get into it. So the way we usually start these things is we just like to ask uh a simple question. Maybe walking us through your origin story in a few minutes is really like where we like to start. So, we can get over to you. Start anywhere you like. How much time have you got? Um. No, I usually like to start by saying I'm um I'm a recovering nonprofit executive turned tech entrepreneur. Uh, I came out of ecological economics, as you already told your audience, and then proceeded to work in a very innovative, conservation-based organization, uh, for the better part of 15 years. It was, um, interesting enough and varied enough that I could repot myself several times. And the TLDR on that organization EcoTrust really is that it was creating innovative business models to solve large scale problems in the bioregion here on the west coast of North America. I was initially a staff economist, then created an internal consulting practice, and then of course no good deep goes unpunished, so I kept being promoted until they made me president, and in the midst of all of that. We had begun to use technology, um, you know, we're always tech heavy in terms of using GIS, early adopters of technology, and I saw an opportunity about 10 years ago. Uh, it was a really simple-minded question to say, what if we use the then contemporary and emergent technologies and like social media platforms for coming on the market, right, and two-sided marketplaces and what have you, Craigslist for crying out loud, you know, I said, how can we put those technologies. In the service of people and planet. And um the idea for what is now my company Amalaria was really born at EcoTrust, right? So that's the recovering nonprofit executive turned tech entrepreneur part. And when it was time for me to leave, what I really wanted to do was take that nascent idea of what's now a malaria and turn that into a standalone thing, and then promptly ran into all the challenges of raising capital while female, raising capital while trying to build purposeful technology. And that led me in a fairly direct path to my co-founders at Zebras Unite uh back in 2016, we all met up at SOAP. Uh, had an immediate meeting of the minds. uh, Jen and Mara had written sex and Startups, which, you know, you must put into the guide for the episode. For sure, that's going right in the in the show notes. And uh and then, you know, I was one of the co-authors of the Response together with Ania Williams who came along as well, and we wrote Zebras Fix what Unicorns Break, and that was of course the start of Zebra's Unite and so. In my mind, it's all in a very direct line, but I can see how from the outside it might look like a real hodgepodge, or as my um oh gosh, who just, I, I, I it just somebody in my professional friends circle who said it's really Not a career path, it's a career portfolio. I think it's April, I think it's April Renny who uh who talked talks about career portfolios, and so to me it just looks like an interesting portfolio, but it was not a straight career path, that's for sure. Well, I think there's a lot of places to start from there, but I really, I like to kick off with, we've had experts on ecology, experts on economics, but we haven't really had any eco ecological economist on the show, so I'd love to. Just pick up on that first part and ask you, perhaps, you know, can you tell the audience, what is ecological economics? Yeah, sure, um, so the field of economics, you know, is. So I work with, you know, markets and firms as if the planet doesn't exist. Uh, environmental economics is. Saying that the planet is an externality to the economy and, and ecological economists will that you're right, which is why ecological economics came along and said, no, actually the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the planet and nature. And when you take that, when you just sit with that for a minute, the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of nature. Then everything has to be different. Like the way you think about an individual company, right, in terms of how you source your materials, in terms of even how the things you sell, right? Like selling single use plastic is a terrible idea if you take a planetary lens. And there are certain things that just don't get made under a lens that takes Our existence in nature seriously, but it also pertains that it also has implications for how we think about the macroeconomy, how we think about everything really in our economy. And so I was fortunate to discover one of the founding fathers, if you will, of that field. When I was an undergraduate in Scotland, read his book, Dick Norgatt's book Development Portrayed, uh, came out, I think in 1994, totally dating myself here. Uh, and, um, and then discovered in working with uh Amory Lovins, whose book I was helping translate into German, um, that, uh, he, you know, I had dinner with him. And he said, oh, with your interest, you really ought to be at the Energy and resources group at Berkeley, which did not scream ecological economics. In fact, at the time, again, it's the early 90s, there was no degree program, no, no graduate degree program in ecological economics. And he said, oh, but Dick is at ERG, the energy and resources group. And so I applied to exactly one PhD program outside of Germany, and that was the energy and resource group at Berkeley, and then worked with Dick Norgat on, on my PhD. Nice. So I think like you touched on a lot of interesting things there. I think one thing. I have, I've had in the past, somewhat annoying conversations with neoclassical economists who, you know, have done exactly what you said in some regards. So, I really, just so folks really get the difference, right? Like, um. You know, what is your background help, what your background and the background of people like you, what does it help you learn or include, you know, maybe if it's even in terms, maybe, you know, is it as simple as I have a a differential equation, I included some more terms, right, or what have you, right? Like, what helped, what, what does this education help yourself and others like you grasp that mainstream economists just don't. Yeah, actually math is not a bad place to start. Um, so the reason, well, one of the reasons neoclassical economics oversimplifies our relationship with the the world is because it likes closed form equations. Right, like everything has to equal out nicely, and it that's just not how the world works. Like the the world is not in constant frigging equilibrium, and we're not. You know, we're not uh utility maximizing robots like it's just not, I mean, it's common sense really more than anything else, uh, but yeah, like the, the, the love of close form equations and um and then also this. Just brazen disregard for anybody but ourselves, right? I actually had a, I got into, I just laughed at an e at a neoclassical economist. We were at a, at an event in the Netherlands celebrating one of the great, um, environmental economists, Hooting, and this guy, we were at a, you know, like afterwards in Amsterdam, you're on a canal, you know it's like a dinner cruise or whatever, they took all of us out great. I've been one of the speakers because Dick, bless his heart, he was, um, at home with his then newborn twins, and he sent me and another woman graduate student to give the keynote on his behalf. It was such a slap in the face of the establishment. They just could not believe that he had the audacity to serve two young women, two young women. And he's like, Well, but this work that you're presenting, we did together, so why would they not accept you anyway. Uh, and on that dinner cruise, like one, we, I got into it with a neoclassic economist who basically told me that the future doesn't matter and the interests of future generations don't matter. And he was, he was in his 60s or 70s at the time, and I said, so Wilfred, um, just named him, oops. Uh, so you're telling me that your grandchildren's interests are less important than yours. And he said, Yes. And I just laughed. I said, I don't believe you. I, I do not believe you're that bad a granddad. That you can tell me with a straight face that their interests don't matter and you don't care. In fact, let me ask you this, do you have a savings account for them? Yes, of course, he was putting money away for their education. And it's just like, it's just cognitive dissonance, right? Like any, that's what it comes down to. It's cognitive dissonance. These people don't understand how life really works. Yeah, I think and it's really interesting you put it that way too, because like, it, it seems like it's just a I don't know. I, I don't wanna call it obvious, may maybe, maybe it's an insult to all economists everywhere, sorry, economists. We've had some, we've had quite a few on the show, but like, you know, this whole, just idea of like, this great term you said, which I, I used that exact term in the decks that we've used to fundraise for Cerrulean because we're very much focused on. Valuing nature and its input to the economy, and we use literally a thing like, there's a nice diagram that says there's the nature, you know, it's not, it's not a wholly owned subsidiary of the economy, it's the other way around, right? Like, and I think that's a really interesting way to put it, um, and I think that you've touched on a number of interesting things there, but You talk to the economists, it's like, well, I like, I just want to make sure that the equations balance out, and I've historically, when I do that, growth results and it's like, yes, but, but where what was the cost of the growth? Growth at what cost? Not a question. I mean, look, in nature, like what is uncontrolled growth? That's called. Cancer. You don't want that. Exactly. It's, it's, it's wrote at this point, right? I feel like we've been saying that for like 20 years, like the, the, the, the cancer, it's very obvious, right? Um, and I mean, I don't want to rant on this too much, but if I feel like at least the the results of the last 15 years and complexity economics at least have been able to be like, say, hey, I'll actually try to treat this as a computational complexity problem and see if we can get to the bottom of this with other terms that people are like, oh, well, it seems to be fruitful and But yet it's still dominated by things like this. And I think I actually wanna turn back to the to the what it's dominated by, right? What do you, what do you call um What are some of the gaps, right? Cause you, we've covered what this education helped you see that others don't see, but what are the sort of gaps in the current system that an ecological approach can really help you shore up? Yeah, I mean, bear in mind I, I didn't go into the field to stay in the field, right, like I had a So I don't actually, um, I think it's, it, it is what you just said, right? Like if you, if you take, if you understand the computational complexity, if you just understand the complexity of life, right? Then you're, then you're, then you want to take a different, more of a sort of learning mindset approach to anything you encounter, right? Like, what's, what's wrong with this picture? And it's, it, it definitely trains you to question assumptions. It makes you look for patterns. It makes you spot patterns, right? Because you can't rely on the tidy rationale, right? Like, I mean, if we, and this is where, I mean, I wanna, I wanna, I, I think this is where we get into some of the issues around, you know, why, why we founded zebras Unite, for example, right? So we, if you, um, If you, if you question assumptions, right, then you, you, you, it helps you understand that, uh, just going back to my personal experience, right? Like I was the exact same person when I left EcoTrust, um, that, that I was when I started meeting with venture capitalists. But all of a sudden, my perfect track record of raising millions of dollars on the basis of selling ideas ground to a halt. What changed? Like my capacity to sell ideas didn't change, right? The thing that changed was the room I was in. Oh, what kind of room was that? Astrid. Well, it turns out it was dominated by middle aged white guys who, you know, at best, uh, you know, I, I like the nicest way you can put it is I wasn't, I wasn't matching their pattern. Right. But it gets, if you don't, if you don't question the assumption, right, you might say, oh well, my ideas must not have any merit. It's like, no, my ideas demonstrably have had merit for a long time. It's just all of a sudden, you're in a different room and you go, hm, what's wrong with this picture? Like, what's happening here? Right? And then, of course, you realize what's happening here is actually systemic. There are entire classes of people that are excluded from access to capital, for example. And it's not because of the merit of the ideas. Yeah. Uh, and so I think seeing, seeing patterns and seeing sort of the, the institutional. Interconnectedness of it all, right? Like how, how things nest within each other, uh, is, you know, I can definitely blame, uh, my training for that. Well I think you bring up an interesting uh almost a, a metaphor that we can run with a bit, which is like, you know, what, what are the What what are the things you can't see, right? Because this is not even a reality that you can grasp in some ways. And so when you think about like what you're doing in your ecological ecological economics background, it's hard for people to win or get capital for some of these things when you can't even see the things that they are directing it towards as objects that can return, so to speak, right? So like, the thing I'm talking about in particular is like. Um, which I'm sure probably comport with your past or current experience is when you, when you talk to someone, like right now in this moment in August in 2023, a, a really profound and interesting sort of take right now is that there's there's this group you're probably familiar with the Task Force for Nature Related Financial Disclosures, right? TNFD there's the Task Force for Nature Markets, there's the Uh, what was the other one, the, the GBF, the goal biodiversity framework, there's all these things emerging that are a result of NGOs, policymakers, and a little bit of participation from private capital and finance and those folks who are now saying, wait. Um, this tract of land where normally for the last 300, 400 years, we would have a sovereign or a corporation or someone come along and direct capital towards some extraction that's super obvious because there's a market for it, and I can just take the copper or whatever it is and sell it. And but I don't have to worry. My equations don't concern what happens to the land that it's extracted from. I don't have to worry about that part. I'm only talking about markets, right? I think this is, this is a very like, you know, like you said. Um, it's hard to go to that same person and say, well, you know what, that, that land also is gonna see the next 100 harvests of this particular commodity that you depend on. It's also going to have, it's also gonna contribute in a number of complex, illegible ways. To the biodiversity of this area, that's gonna see a whole bunch of other things, and that's well, you know, and, and there you have it, right, like the idea, I mean, we're blind to so much value that's created that sits outside our, you know, financial markets and financial capital is just one form of capital, right, like in one in one framing, right, with their social, cultural, you name it. It was actually that was actually the the the under the motivation for for my doctoral research was to look at. This question of how we, how, how come we keep turning nature into natural resources. Like how does nature become a natural resource? How does that happen? Right? And then we're just back to mining, literally stuff. Uh and um when I was embarking on my, my research project and again early 90s, you know, the big Rio conference had just happened in 1992 and I thought, well, here is a, here is a Uh, form of nature. Here is a locus where you can study this almost in real time because biodiversity and genetic resources, genetic resources for it, were just coming into the lexicon. And I thought, well, that's interesting because when you read early uh papers in economics about the value of biodiversity. You've got these wildly, just wildly divergent estimates from $20 a hectare of rainforest to $20,000 per hectare of rainforest. And that just did not make sense. Like, how can you have 34 orders of magnitude difference right? And the value of a thing. That's just like saying, oh, Jack, you want to go and buy some milk? It might cost you $1 or it might cost you $10,000. Who knows? That's, right? Like, like you can't construct a market with those wildly, you know, varying values on like 5 orders of magnitude. That's absurd. And I said, well, what the hell is going on there? And so I thought, and this is what I applied to Berkeley with, I thought it was going to be a theoretical piece. I thought I was going to spend time just constructing a better, you know, open form. You know, not close form, but open form model. And then very quickly realized in talking to my advisors, I said, you know. That's actually, it's actually, it, it requires field work. Where, where the heck can I go to study this in the field? And so I ended up saying, well, pharmaceutical drug discovery is actually the commercial expression of all this, right? And so I constructed my fieldwork around the stages of drug discovery, right, from the lab or actually from the rainforest to the lab to Uh, pharmaceutical companies, biotech companies, and come to find out, it is, it is a constructivist process, right? Like depending on, so the value of nature changes depending on the question you're asking of it. So when the the disease model is X. A certain compound may not show up as valuable at all, and if you change the disease model, and now we think cancer works this way, all of a sudden it lights up all the robots, and that is literally what happened with Taxol, which is still one of the most powerful cancer drugs in the world. And it had been sitting in a storage vault at the National Institutes of Health for 30 years. And then some scientist comes along and says, let's try the whole mouse model again because now we think there's something else going on at a more macro level with cancer, and Taxol just knocked it out of the park and it's still again, like one of the most uh widely, widely used drugs for uh tamoxifen, I think, for breast cancer. Well, I didn't change, but the value went from 0 to infinite. Yeah, and, you know, if the microphone caught me snickering doing that, it's not because I was laughing at anything you said. It's more that I was laughing at how you started graduate school with, I'm gonna have this simple model that maybe values nature and inputs, and then you left by the time you left, you reinvented the whole economy from first principles. like it's funny. All right. Well, I mean, I, I just discovered that I actually had to go out and talk to people, which as an introvert was also a bit terrifying. And so anyway, that's, that's how I came by my ethnographic education, but there you have it. No, same, that totally makes sense, and I think that um it backdoors into something that we love to focus on, you know, just the whole focus of the pod, which is um Basically, ownership. How, what does it result from? Who gets to own things, how, what is the governance, etc. And I think this is where your journey gets super interesting, um, cause, you know, some of these places we're talking about, um, There there's multiple intersecting intersecting threads here if you think of. Pharmaceuticals and drug discovery, there's, you know, frontiers that are not touched yet in terms of ocean and ocean biodiversity and um all the, all the metagenomics and things that people are doing to measure that and find new uh compounds that can target new things and you go on to terrestrial and we're talking about that. The interesting question there is. Yeah, and this is the same for financial institutions. They always ask, oh, yes, we're happy to, if I'm a bank or financialist, I'm happy to invest in something here. What is the provenance of the asset? What is the thing I own, right? And then you back out, and I'm sure you do this a bit, you know, we, we keep asking why, how do we get here? We zoom out a bit. And from this one transaction for, you know, maybe a bank doing nature-based solutions or financing of uh the drug discovery or something, you zoom in and you go, well, how did, how did the bank get the capital to do that? And how did we, how did we, where are these, uh, where are these capital allocation decisions, where do they originate? And then you, you, you, you follow it all the way and you end up at ownership and, and governance and how we make these decisions. So I think this intersects really nicely with your background with zebras, actually, so. Uh, I think you had mentioned a little bit of it. You'd mentioned that in 2016 you went to SOAP, the, uh, the Impact Investor conference in San Francisco. I think it's always San Francisco, right? Um, um, tell us a little bit about that story because I think it's super prudent to what happens next. Yeah, it is actually. And, and it's useful to sort of take the bridge from EcoTrust to Zebras, you know, leads through my company, right? So the idea was, let's see if we can deploy, if we can build and deploy technology that actually mobilizes and, and, and your work, provenance is important, right? That mobilizes innovations and figures out how we can scale the things that are already working to protect people and planet, right? So, so, uh, EcoTrust, for example, had an ecological forestry model. It works in this bioregion. 80% of the model can travel to other countries and to other places. So wouldn't it be efficient, I guess the German speaking, right? Wouldn't it be great if some Uh, practitioner in say China could find the EcoTrust forest model making air quotes on your podcast and, and then instead of reinventing the whole thing. Uh, just adapted to the forest and the land use in China, right? But take the same DNA of the model and say, oh, that's really interesting. Here's a way we can manage forests for biodiversity and for fresh water and for cultural and ceremonial uses, etc. In instead for pulp and paper, right? So the, how can we translate that whole business model to a different region in the world and how can we facilitate that lateral flow of innovation, right? So that's what my company Amalaria. Is is building, uh, and, and so. So you step out of that, right? Like, so I liberated the the the assets in that case from the nonprofit, which is hilarious because I had to buy the thing that I helped EcoTrust event uh invent like the the prototype for what is now a malaria I had to buy, which is painful. Yeah, that's not like there's a whole thing about nonprofits that I, I, I that's a whole different rant, maybe a different podcast, but in any event, so, so I was in the market basically fundraising. Uh, come to find out, impact investors don't understand technology and tech investors didn't care about impact. And so I was at SOAP hoping to, as you do, right, intersect some potential investors. Come to find out, a lot of those investors, you'll be shocked to hear, have venture style return expectations even of the impact investments they're making. Because the narrative of the frigging unicorn and like, uh. You know, and, and, and, and quick and hockey stick style returns and 10X, you know, and even they, they even talk about impact unicorns is so dominant. I'm face palming, you know, you can't see it, but yeah, sorry. That's all you're hearing is John. vomiting. Yeah, exactly. I mean just for you, because I imagine this has got to be, even now, it's the worst fundraising environment in like 20 years, but even back then, like, if you're, if you're up against the unicorn narrative, it's just, it's not even, it's orthogonal, the conversation. It's just not even, yeah. It's so painful. And it's, it's like, and, and I think, and that is actually, it remains my persistent criticism of impact investors. I think a lot of them are just not very. Clear in their minds about. The the the the the sort of the inconsistency, that again, the cognitive dissonance between what they say they want to do in the world and then the financial return expectations they attach to that. And in some ways, I wasn't surprised. Like, even again speaking about EcoTrust, you know, the first, um, forest fund we raised fund one was an evergreen fund, and it was, it was making financial returns, right? And our lead investor, so you, you're cranking out your quarterly reports, right? And our lead investor, like every quarter, her financial advisor would put that report into her charitable summary. It's like it's not charitable. It's a real estate. It's like a real asset type investment, not real estate, real asset. Why are you putting it in the charitable column, right? Like that narrative and the, the practices around it are so pervasive. And so that's what we ran into while trying to raise. Uh, essentially venture funding for what is now a malaria because impact investors would say, well, how, when are you going to get to a million dollars in ARR? I'm like, if I had a million dollars in ARR I would not be raising venture because then I would just be making a profit. But the, the model, like the, they didn't even have the language to it was either a venture style equity investment or it was a loan, and there wasn't like 7 years ago that we didn't even have the language. I mean there were a few people who were making mezzanine investment investments, right, in the social enterprise space. But thank thank goodness for uh Arnie Patton Power's book on adventure finance. Now we have 50. 50 case studies, right, or whatever, however many she's got in her book that that paint the picture of alternative structures, but in 2016, what was so hard is you as the entrepreneur. Had to educate every single investor. And I'm sure you run into this. Like you, you have to do so much education. Who's got the time, right? Whereas, whereas the tech pros with their decks or their, you know, back of the napkin? Like you just paint a picture, they're asking for a safe note, 5 million pre-valuation, blah blah blah, right? And it's like. You know, how many billions did Uber raise before they turned a profit? Like if you'd invested $200 billion into me, I guarantee you I'd be running a profitable business too. It just gives you so much search space. You got all this time, right? Yeah, it's really, really good. No, I mean, it's just, it's just ridiculous, right? And so anyway, so the, the market just wasn't ready like by any stretch and. And the thing that emerged, and that is sort of the link to to zebras here very directly, it's like there wasn't. There wasn't a home for entrepreneurs like myself, right? Like if you were building purposeful technology. And you were not a good fit. Like I had several people actually. Uh, Nigel Kershaw, said Sir Nigel Kershaw, big issue invest in the UK. He said, you know, anybody who asks you for your elevator pitch is already not the right investor. If you're trying to solve a complex problem. Absolutely, you can't be put into a two line pitch for you're missing the point. Yeah, anyway, so that's, that's what led me in a pretty direct path, uh, to Z Unite because at SOAP in 2016. I think it was Kevin Jones, actually, one of the founders of Socap. I was sitting with him. He was acting as an adviser to my company, and he said, Oh, I just met this really interesting woman. She's also from Portland. You should talk to her. And that was Marra Zepeda, who had earlier that year with Jen Brundel written Sex and Startups. And so then Matt and I met in Portland, hit it off, did some other things together, including creating a, a, a, uh. Loan fund and entrepreneur support program for um growth stage women entrepreneurs in Oregon, um, but then the, the big thing we we all did together, of course, was right see us fix what unicorns break, um, and then that unleashed the the global movement that we know now. Well, tell us a little bit about that for folks who haven't heard about it, what is it? What is zebras? What? What? There are people who haven't heard of zebras which, I mean, side note, I've, I've gone through the onboarding, so I could sort of answer that question, but why do that when I have you here? Perfect. Well, I mean, long story short, right, like, so Jen and Mata had written sex and Startups, and it's hilarious. I mean you have to read it. It's just such a set up. It'll be in the show notes, it already is, but it's not just send up of the whole. Uh, you know, VC world, and once you read it, you can't unsee it, right? Like you can't unsee the patterns that are so prevalent there, um, and I won't give it away for people who haven't read it yet. But the legitimate question was then now what, right? Like if you don't like venture, if you don't like the VC world, what's the alternative? What do you propose? Like if not unicorns, then what? And, and so we wrote and it was fun to write. Um, zebras fix what unicorns break to basically begin to sketch out an alternative. Vision and framing for startups that are motivated by profitability, not just the next valuation and, and the next round they're raising, who treat their customers as part of a community, not as something you churn through, right, and discard, um, who have probably wired into their DNA of what they're building and how they're building it, um, you know, a greater set of considerations for their community, for the planet, you name it. You know, who are interested not. In disruption for disruption's sake, but look, finding problems to solutions, right, for healing systems rather than disrupting them. And so on and on, like we had a, we had there's a whole table in zebras fix what unicorns break and it turns out it resonated with people from all over the world. Like that was really the shock out. Like we thought we were describing our experience and it was a little tongue in cheek and you know unicorns are mythical zebras are real, they're black and white, profit and purpose, they're feisty. If you ever seen a zebra go up against the lion right there, uh, they, they, they, they move in in herds and the herd, of course, is called a dazzle, so we had so much fun. So good. But then the emails started pouring in and the direct messages and it's like, what have we done? There are people everywhere saying, I am a zebra, I want to invest in them, how do I build it, you know, where do I go? I, I, I remember this because I, I was around, for me, I think I found it in 2017. So, uh, my, my motivation for it was just, you know, we've had Jen, Horn and Jeff on the, on the podcast as well, Savvy Cooperative, and I had been interested in the platform coop space. But what I found really interesting about it is that once again, once you get started and you start asking the why questions, you, I feel like at least looking at it from the outside and a little bit on the inside, for zebras, you. I feel like you reinvented the entire capital stack almost and then that that sort of led you to be 6 and other things which we'll get to, but right, like I'm, I'm talking about like you, you, you created a constellation of, of organizations seemingly within zebras, which can you tell us a bit more about that? Like how did they come to be and why? Because you start you start people start saying I'm a zebra, I'm a zebra, and then you, you just run and so this is actually relevant, right? Like my having come out of the nonprofit space. I, there was no way in hell I was going to found a nonprofit. I was just, no, no way, no how. Those things don't scale and anything interesting you do. The IP is forever locked up. I mean, again, I had to buy my own business, like the thing that I invented inside EcoTrust I had then had to buy. Because if you don't do that as a nonprofit, you, you threaten your entire charitable status, and people don't know this, like they I have a huge problem with all these well-intentioned people who keep creating nonprofits, especially if they are from already marginalized communities. Like if I see one more like black or brown run nonprofit that that wants to do something interesting with capital, I'm I'm just gonna stick a fork in my eyeball because it's just like these things don't scale, you cannot. Reward you yourself financially for the value you're creating in the world. So anyway, end of rent, whatever you do, dear listener, do not create a nonprofit. So, so, so this, it was, but so it was interesting, right? Like with zebras, we had articulated, um, so first we invited everybody to Portland to a conference to figure out what this thing wanted to be. We're like, who, who are you people? What do you want? What, what, what does this want to be? And so that's where the three pillars really emerged, right? Capital, community, and culture. And culture really, it's like the whole educating the world, educating the market about this alternative way to building businesses that is neither an a a lifestyle business like a mom and pop. Right, or just the one your restaurant on Main Street. No, you can be, you can be an ambitious entrepreneur like Jen, you know, Hoa from savvy, wickedly ambitious, wickedly smart entrepreneur, just community minded, right? So a Delaware Sea Corp is not the right structure for her business, and then everything else falls out of that decision in terms of the capital she can raise, etc. So where does, where do entrepreneurs like Jen go, right? And so that's where We realized like, oh, this needs to be some kind of persistent something. But I was ready to just die on that hill. It's not going to be a nonprofit. And so that's where we got into some very productive conversations around like what what would it look like to own the thing? Like, what would it look like to create a thing that you can own as an entrepreneur that helps you accomplish the things that you need, right? Like that that provides the community capital and culture that you need for your business, for your enterprise to thrive. And so very quickly we landed on the idea that Zabbras Unite is a multi-stakeholder cooperative I design. But then guess what? Guess guess what is the easiest way to get money? Well, of course it's a frigging donation or a grant. And so we knew we probably wanted a uh a sidecar, that's a nonprofit, and, and so we basically designed it as a as a hybrid from the get-go. Got it. And then, Tell us a bit about the ownership structure, right? How does one become a member? And of course, let's walk it back, right? I, I hear this great, I see this great almost, I might be putting words into your, into your mouth and your co-founder's mouth, but I gravitated towards it because it was kind of like a screed against, you know, a whole bunch of chumps that were kind of in my, in my, in my cir in some of my circles, right? So I'm like, oh this is great, right? So, I, I read the screen and go, hey, actually, I'm, I'm one of those people. I'm, I'm I, I wanna, I wanna join that movement, right? But you took some really interesting steps and that you turned the movement into very specific. Legal, you know, intersubjective realities that people could then act on in the world, right? So what, what ended up becoming the sort of parallel for it on paper when you, when someone says, what is this thing? Where is that? How do I sign up? Yeah, so, so it's currently two entities, right? So we have um a nonprofit, uh, charter here in the US, 501c3. The application for nonprofit status of which we wrote so broadly enough. That it could hold For profit interests and you have to be careful, right? Like many people, it's like the 1023. That's a very important form. So we wrote it carefully enough. So, and the IRS came back to us with questions saying, what do you exactly mean by a for-profit business, right? So you have to be prepared for a little bit of back and forth here. But we basically, so we got the, uh, I think, I think we charted the C3 for, I forget how we put the sequence actually is now. I think we're doing it truly in parallel, but in any event. The the C3 has its charter written broadly enough so it can hold for-profit interests, and so that's how it can hold a golden share in the co op, right? So the So we have 4, shareholder classes in the co op. We have the shareholder the golden share, which is a class of 1 that is currently held by the Zebus Unite C3. It could in theory, be held by another nonprofit, and that golden share has very limited rights, right? Like, even though, and we used it as the mechanism to transfer all the IP and all the assets into the co op, right? And in the exchange, it gets this golden share that has super extra duper, super duper extra special powers. That basically comes down to, you know, they get, they don't get to throw their weight around because of the value of the share. It was valued at several $100,000 at the time. Yeah. But because they are holding the mission anchor, and so I think the see this that the golden chair has to vote in the affirmative should Zebus unite ever want to demutralize. Right, so, so Facebook comes along and says we want to buy you Zervos Unite. In theory, the membership could say it's a great idea. Let's sell ourselves to Meta. The um, the golden share would have to vote in the affirmative, so they have the ultimate veto in the case of a proposed demutualization. And what's the how does the governance of the golden share work? Is it like the four co-founders, is it someone external? How does it work? No, so the, the golden share is helped by the nonprofit entity that has its own separate board and the 4. Founders, the doulas, as we like to call ourselves, uh, we have representation on that board, but we don't control the board anymore. So we have, we, we've written ourselves out of, out of it, right? So I am at the moment on the C3 board as the designated doula director, but it could be any of the four of us. Got it. And so like, great. So this is super cool because we have people come on here or, you know, just out in general and, you know, whether they're with 3 or whether they're someone out, you know, like we decentralize her, but you have truly done so in many ways and in an impactful way where you, it's interesting on a number of levels because you're able to have a very simple structure on paper and then behind it, you can think through the social complexity of it and say, well, who should really have a voice in this thing. And what things can they act on in the world because there are some things, honestly, it's better to do them by subtraction almost and say here's some things we never want to happen, right? And so we'll assign those to the golden share. That's our stop gap, very straightforward, right? And just so that you don't have to do the other thing of like, well, let's go through everything and say, well, 66% here, 50 51% here, all these, uh, it can really quickly get out of hand and it's how these have difficulty reaching social consensus. Oh. That's gonna be an understatement. And look, it's still not easy, right? Like, it's easy to describe. It was easy-ish to design once you found the right lawyers who were willing to actually work with each other instead of, because, of course, the nonprofit has to have its own lawyers and the for-profit, and just finding two sets of lawyers who would not be in an adversarial relationship. I'm like, OK, stop. You're, you're representing two sides. Like, imagine it as a twin propeller airplane. Yeah. Like we need both engines for the plane to fly. We cannot have you in, in, in an adversarial relationship negotiating the interests of the C3 or the interests of the co op. Stop. That's funny cause it's funny because I feel like the, the flip side of this podcast can often be how do lawyers keep making all the money. Because it's not just this episode, that's for every half, half the time we end up in, and then so we had to get the lawyers, we have really nice ones who helped us figure this, this particular thing out. I'm like, my God, the lawyers keep making money. They always find the lawyers, the lawyers do keep making money. It is, uh, that is a total truth here. But in any event, so, so we have the golden share, right? And then we have 3 other uh share classes, we have the doulas, we have a general class, uh, and we have an institutional class. Uh, and then we have actually a 4th share class, but it doesn't have any voting rights, so we have an uh an investor class in the co op, so the co op can conceivably receive outside investment except that doesn't give you any special rights on, on governance. Got it. And I think that's a really interesting that we talked about this quite a bit, like how do you find that balance between um upside and governance, and I think this is a really interesting place. I think honestly, I think very often you just have to say. It, you, you have information rights. That's about it. Like you, you can't say I'm doing this and that, taking in this direction, right? Like. Well, I mean, I mean, I think it's actually for the right investor, right? It's, you can have information rights, uh, sure, you can have a board observer, sure, but also you can have preferential dividend rights, and you can actually do a preferred, you know, share essentially and say, yeah, the investors get paid first out of any profit. Yeah. Absolutely, especially if you have a, a structure and potentially even technology that helps you begin to attribute actions in the network to investors, to participants, to, you know, whatever you want. If you can show that you were the catalyst for something. That's the, that should be the very theoretically possible in the year 2023 to say like we injected liquidity here, it helped the co op form these, these initiatives that resulted in these economic opportunities. So that's always the thing that we're super interested in. Um, I do want to know a little bit, you know, this is a great exploration to see how you set up an alternative organization. And I want to end now on the current stuff that you're doing in terms of alternative capital capital formation. Um, and so, um, that would be basically Armillaria and P6 capital, but I think we touched on Armillaria a little bit, so let's kind of touch on both if you don't mind. Yeah, no, for sure. So again, A malaria is actually just my company, right? So it is the thing that we spun out of EcoTrust. I've got some great business partners. We merged with another company. We're going through the next iteration of reorganizing ourselves to be more effective as a global, uh, systems lab for equitable economies. And one of the things, so we, we basically have, Amalaria focuses on a product, yes, infrastructure as a service for the sorts of things that Zappers Unite is building. Um, we also designed a process, and that's directly what we're using for the capital ecosystem design work at Zeuss Unite and elsewhere. And then we're focused on a protocol layer of defining standards for information about, uh, scalable solutions. There's not enough structured data in the social change space. Um, you know, people now there, everybody's excited about genitive AI. I'm like, if you don't have structured data, you don't have AI. Um, so that's for, but if you have structured data, you could do things before the AI technology is ready. So we're focused on getting to more structured data on. Uh, describing innovations that are actually generating a positive impact in the world, and that also goes with the, there's a solution standard and a deal standard we're interested in working on to basically generate more innovation liquidity. Uh, on the process piece, right, so we've come up with a way to basically do participatory. Capital product design and that comes out of the realization um initially at Zebu Unite that the world probably doesn't need another fund like people were asking us from the get-go. You know, where's the zebra fund that I can invest in? And what we realized is, uh, you know, there's a, there's a ton of interesting funds out there that are, that are innovating in exactly the direction that we need. You know, you mentioned Jen, she, uh, one of her investors is IDVC, you know, Bryce Roberts, clearly a leader on revenue-based financing, and he got a little bit burnt, uh, in his first stepping out. I think they're about to open Indy 2.0. Uh, in September, super exciting, right? Yeah, and that's it's interesting, you're 100% right too, like, he delivered from what I could see, just actually industry beating benchmarks, at least for IRR and what he shared, just it's in, it's nuts as other people, it's as have other people who've used the revenue based strategy. If you talk to Aa Ben Abi from from Condi, that family office, you know, they, they, they beat the industry benchmarks. Right? Like a lot of people and, and revenue-based financing is basically playing moneyball as opposed to hitting home runs, right? Like they're, you're not, you're not trying to hit home runs, you're trying to optimize it across the portfolio. You have your whatever, how you turn the dial 2 to 5X, right? And that on, on average, actually outperforms the vast majority of venture funds, cause most things are that. Yeah, right. And also, what's wrong with a $150 million exit, my friend? Like, what is wrong with the No is the answer. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the $150 million anyway. But we digress. So anyway, at Zebras we said, um, well, we probably don't just want to commit to the one fund because one fund means one thesis, one structure, right? And so we, and at the same time, we realized there are a lot of people coming up with new innovative funds that are using real estate or equity or debt in these really innovative ways to support entrepreneurs that can't easily get access to capital. And so that realization combined with a malaria's capital ecosystem design process, led us um to basically take a participatory multi-stakeholder approach to saying what, how can we serve. A group of capital innovators in a place and the place being the United States and the group of capital innovators being further described by their demographic makeup, notably by PAC folks who are basically developing capital instruments to help their communities because they can't get the capital. Right, and so that that's the design process approach that takes us down the path of then creating the inclusive capital collective, which is being incubated under uh under Zippos Unite again as a hybrid co op nonprofit. With the idea that you really want the the buy park fund managers to own, literally own the financial infrastructure that mobilizes more capital or credit enhancement or technical assistance for all of their projects and funds to succeed. So it becomes almost like a community owned investment bank. And why not? Right. There are other co op banking uh financial institutions and so, so that's that's the the trajectory that the ICC is on. That's super cool because I think that it's a world where, you know, speaking to that from the inside and also being an outsider and breaking in. Um, that's When you really sit down and and look at it from a top-down point of view, and you go, where is all the capital, you know, there's like $12 trillion of it in family offices. There's some absurdly huge amount in asset managers, which, you know, you could go your entire life. Most human beings on earth could go their entire life and not know what an asset manager is, right? So like, having, having some form of a vehicle that It also just, just simply lets people understand that this is a thing that's possible. I think it's really important, right? To be like, actually, did you know that you don't have to go to the bank for one of these small small business loans, which they probably will deny you anyway. Uh, or you don't have to do a credit card thing either, which is just terrible. We could have our own forms of capital and have our own invested ownership, um, exactly, right? Exactly, right? And why not put that that liberatory capital infrastructure literally in the ownership of the people it's intended to serve, right? And so, and so the ICC is doing things like creating a credit enhancement facility that is available to its members, you know, we have begun exploring what it would look like. To, uh, tap into some of the federal tax credit programs like new market tax credits and again just take control of that whole value chain, not just, you know, show up as a broker and take a few, you know, basis points, but actually just own that whole frigging value chain, um. And so that's, that's sort of the same logic that motivates us with other capital ecosystem design projects. And so the one I think that you're interested in is around collective ownership. Yeah, right. Well, you backed into it. I just wanted to, before we get into it, just a little bit of context setting we had folks like um Zoe Schlag from Common Trust has been on the pod. We've had a uh we've covered kind of the gamut of LLC, C Corp, S Corp, Cooperative Li Limited Cooperative Association, all the various forms could take, and then we've poked and prodded at, you know, what are the trade-offs of organizing as a co op? What does it what does it help you scale? What does it kind of shut down for you? And you know, a lot of folks, there have been positives and negatives, right? But what I found really interesting about your P6 experiment and why I also think Zoe's experiment is very interesting is that At every journey in a firm business, whatever thing you are building at every, at every juncture, there just needs to be, there is a common theme, there just needs to be more innovation in the types of capital and structures that are available because not everyone needs to be an LLC or a C Corp or an S corp or something else that makes it easy for an investor to give you money. There needs to be. Some other way to say I won't want to do that. I wanna, I don't want to take that path. I wanna take this path. I don't wanna take something else and make it do this, right? So I think that's why for me, I was very intrigued by what you're building P6 because it's basically trying to just do another interesting experiment where people have said, you know, I would like to see or precede or early as early as possible risk capital into these cooperative ventures. And in my experience so far, I've yet to see someone say. Great, let's do that. That's really easy. Yeah, no, it is, yeah, hand hinge, you know, it's not easy. Um, yeah, and then we actually came into this work around what we're now calling P6 capital and it's like literally P6 like letter P number 6. Through the zebras unite's own needs, right, so we're a multi-stakeholder co op. Um, we're revenue funded. That's crazy. Like you just want to appreciate that we are a revenue funded global movement and that's functioning as a co op. It's crazy. It's like that's like the hardest thing you can try. Don't try that, like please don't, don't. If you're listening, don't do that. It's, it's really hard, but we, we are revenue positive, right? We're actually, uh, I don't know where we're gonna be this year, we're going to finish up, but it's in the high 6 figures, right? It's, it's respectable. And um maybe we'll scratch a million, we're definitely scratching a million on the C3 side there, that's where we're in the multiple millions, but on the on the co op side we're like call it a million, right? Making revenue from not just memberships but providing advisory services, right? Do you think we can get a line of credit? No, no. So, including, and this is how all this started, right? Including from the National Coop Bank. Like, I'll never forget, I was, uh, uh, I was actually at a retreat with the other doulas, uh, it was like December, couple, couple years ago, and I get this call from the president of the National Coop Bank where he basically said, this is ridiculous. We're just gonna have to figure this out systemically. Like we can't underwrite a line of credit for you. This is stupid. Help us, help us figure this out. And I mean there's, there's more to it than that, like one project came in on it, but um who are very interested in the sort of whole post-capitalist economy, so we had this really interesting convergence of A family office that basically says post capitalist everything like burn it down, right, rebuild it on crypto and this that was one project you're referring to, right? Or OK, got you, and then on the other side, and on the other side you have this very state. Traditional but co op banker. I'm like, wow, this is hilarious. And both organizations actually sent people to the week including Casey uh uh the the the the president of the National Coop Bank attended just about weekly meetings of this project because he's so into it and figuring this out. And so what we tried to figure out is like how do you mobilize more capital into these newfangled co-ops that like Zivos Unite are or like savvy co op are are tech enabled, right? They rely on technology to do the thing they do to create the value they create. It's not a food co op, it's not an agricultural co op. It's not like any of the co-ops that the co op bank is comfortable underwriting. It's not a rural electric, so they just don't know how to underwrite tech co-ops. But as you and I know, Like the cooperative structure is so powerful for tech platforms. Right, like if Uber, if Uber was a co op, right, like that is, that is the premise of the driver's co op in New York. Uh, but now you're in the world, and this is sort of we're backing into the problem, right? Can, can, can you find a line of credit with difficulty, right? The six-figure line of credit, really hard to find. We're still at it. It's been a year and a half. Zipper Unit has been in negotiations with various co op lenders about a line of credit. Can't find it for the life of. I mean, we can't find it, but the, the diligence is ridiculous, right? Uh, and it's also a year and a half. Like this is not moving at the pace of business. The other thing that's really hard to find is if you're a new tech enabled co op, like if you're the driver's co op, and I'm not speaking out of turn, Alyssa Orlando, one of the co-founders of the driver's co op, uh, you know, led the project on P6 Capital. Uh, with, with, uh, me on, on the side, um, you know, you need startup capital. Like if you're going to build a two-sided marketplace and you want to make your drivers and your customers, members of the co op, like who are your drivers, right? They're immigrants. They are people who don't have the money for a taxi medallion. They're sure as heck not gonna have the money, uh, to buy, like put cash into a brand new co op, right? So you're up against the same systemic wealth gaps. And the people who most benefit from co-ops are likely the ones that don't have the wealth to begin with, right? So how do you, where do you find seed funding for a new co op? Where do you find funding to do, to convert an existing business, like the silver tsunami that's coming. There are so many business owners who just want to get out and that could, whose businesses could be converted into employee or multi-stakeholder ownership. How, how do you finance those conversions? And so the interesting thing in that project was we kept hearing like from some of the CDFIs, the community development financial institutions that focus on specialize on loans to co-ops, oh, there's just no demand. But like, really? Because I have a six figure demand. Alyssa, who was building a search fund at the time, was seeing all these opportunities of, you know, uh, cash positive, revenue positive businesses, profitable businesses that were looking for conversion financing in the low tens of millions, and then over here our friends in the coop financial institutions were saying we're not seeing the deals. And then what we realized what's happening is, oh. You're not seeing the deals that you can underwrite, but the other, the rest of the iceberg that is out there, that would be so lucrative, you can't touch because you don't have the balance sheet. Right? Like if somebody comes along, we had a like a bipar owned marketing firm that was looking to sell itself to its employees, the owners took a huge, uh, like 25% um Haircut. A discount on, on, on the valuation, blah blah blah. They were basically self-financing, they just needed a little bit like $2 million or whatever. Most CDFIs that specialize in co-ops can't do. A $2 million deal. No, much less a $12 million deal. It's ridiculous. Because if your balance sheet, yeah, think about it. If your balance sheet is $25 million or $50 million which is roughly the size of a lot of these smaller CDFIs that are in the co op space, you can't do the transaction. You don't have the balance sheet. So, oops, we don't see the deal flow. It's like, no, you just don't have the balance sheet. And so the first, so the first thing we did is, and that's what you see on the website at P6.capital. It's basically a super simplistic. Syndication network where we try to bring the two sides of the market together and where we can help financial institutions sort of daisy chain themselves together and come into a big deal, into a deal, sorry, not a big deal, by any stretch. A deal that's too big for them, right? And so we're looking, I think Alissa was saying we've, we've facilitated something like 35 or 50 million in, in deals this year to date. Wow, OK, which is also not a lot of money, but it's sure heck more than. Yeah, it's yeah, it's interesting volume for sure. It doesn't end up being like. I, I don't know, I don't know the economics, but yeah, like scaling that up. I mean, God, there's, as you said, there's just got to be so much unmet demand there right? so much unmet demand. It's so ridiculous. And I, you know, you're, you named a few folks here, but it seems like there are a lot of co-conspirators in this journey as well. A common trust, that's basically a big focus for Zoe is basically saying how do I, how do I finance these in an equitable way? How do I find the companies? How do I convert them to employee ownership? Um, that's, you know, uh, who else is kind of in the constellation working with you folks? There's common trust, there's you, is it just, is it crickets, what's cricket. No, I think common trust, I mean, I think there is, um, I think there's a, so there's definitely a number of advisory firms, right, that are springing up and then there's a bunch of new funds or or people who are trying to pull some capital around facilitating those uh conversions, uh, and that's been good to see. Um, you know, friends that social, uh, social capital partners out of the out of Canada are just standing up something new, I think, um, yeah, there's a bunch of players on, on the scene, right, like they're, um, who are who are sort of playing playing in this in this ecosystem, and I think the interesting question is, and, um, Alison Lead from Project Equity has been asking it very, very, you know, vociferously actually is like how does this add up to the billions? Like how do we Right, like, I mean, we, we observe, we, there's sort of a lot of boutique firms in this space now, but how does that, do we, do we undertake some kind of roll up like what's the Like All private equity could conceivably be used for employee ownership or any kind of like these ownership conversions at large. Right? Like, what's, what's the billion dollar vehicle that we can all agree on and go to market with? Because the opportunity is just so huge. Absolutely, and I think like, Well, I think that's actually a good place to sum it up for today, I think, because really I want to hear from you in like 9 to 12 months and see if you, if you put together that billion dollar vehicle because it sounds like we're, we're sure gonna try. I mean, we're convening ahead of um I don't know when you're planning to air this podcast, but ahead of we we're putting together. Uh, uh, ahead of Dazzleon, right? So Dazzlecon happens in Washington DC, um, October 20th and 21st. On October 19th we're actually having a smaller, um, invitation only conversation about exactly this, like how might we Begin to ladder these things up, so, so that it becomes, um, you know, we just add a few zeros to the to the available capital in this space. Yeah, I think that's fascinating, and I think that there's definitely a number of folks in our in our podcast circle alone, who would be interested in having that chat with uh Dazzlecon. So actually, good place real quick, uh, where can we follow all of your work online? Cause I know you should definitely tell us a bit about Dazzleon, a little bit about zebras. P6 and our malaria. So please, where can we find all the work? Well, that's funny. Like if you're asking me about my work, it's well the answer sadly probably is LinkedIn. Actually that's not true. I have a personal web page, um, uh, as for J Schultz.com, but, uh, But yeah, so the zebra stuff, of course, zebrasite. co op, um, uh, and, and you'll see some launching off points there to Dazzleon and to, uh, joining up membership's gonna be opened again after Dazzlecon this this fall. Um, and then Amilaria is at arm malaria.io, um, named after the largest living organism on Earth. It happens to be a fungus under Oregon and Washington. Uh. And yeah, those are the, those are some good places to uh to find me online and then I'm, I'm, I'm sadly not joking about LinkedIn. That's actually a really good place to find me these days. Um, so I, I unabashedly agree. So, I mean, uh, 2 years ago, the, the funny jokes started being people were putting updating their LinkedIn. I never respond to things here, and I was like, man, you're missing out. That's fine. Fine, fine, fine, more more for us. You know, I mean, with all the with all the drama on, you know, the platform formerly known as Twitter and, uh, it's like, yeah, like LinkedIn, all of a sudden it's cool again. Not that it's, oh, maybe it is cool, not cool again. I refuse to call it X, so fair, fair enough. But I think just to pump it one more time, definitely check out Dazzlecon. Go to uh that's zebrasunite.coop/dazzlecon and uh check it out. And it's gonna be in Washington DC October 20th, 21st. Definitely check it out. I think, as you heard in the pod, there's just so many interesting things going on in this space, from capital formation to founders, to ideas, entrepreneurs, just jobs, everything you could potentially think of if you're like, hey, where's this new, where is the new economy being formed in front of my very eyes? That's a great place to go and check it out. Yeah, definitely, if you want to roll up your sleeves, if you wanna join us in the forge, you know, come, come along to Jazz and Con and definitely check out, uh, Cynite.com. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Astrid, thanks a lot for joining us today and thanks for leading us through the complex, but, you know, at the end, makes a lot of sense, sense making journey. Thank you, thank you for validating my experience. I like it all makes sense. It seems convoluted, but at the end of the day, it makes sense. Absolutely. But thanks again. Yeah. We hope you enjoyed this week's episode of the ownership economy. Don't forget to like and subscribe. B