Hot Seat: Three Owners, No Easy Answers

Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host Lauren [music] Feldman. Sometimes the best conversations start with a simple question and then another and another. This week we put Kate Morgan, Jackie Russo, and Ted Wolf in the hot seat and fire away. Are you hiring? Are you finding impressive job candidates? What was the worst job you ever had? And did you learn anything from it? [music] Have you bought crypto? If you had $10,000 a month to spend on marketing, where would it go? Should a marketing agency ever turn its marketing over to another marketing agency? What's holding you back? What's the simplest thing [music] you've never quite figured out how to do? None of these are trick questions, but they don't necessarily have easy answers. Kate [music] admits she's never opened her accounting software. Jackie says one of the best things that ever happened to her was getting [music] fired. Ted recounts losing 40% of his company's revenue in a single weekend. Running a business means living with trade-offs, uncertainty, [music] and the occasional punch to the gut. As Jackie reminds us, it usually works out [music] one way or another. But that doesn't mean the answers are simple when you're in the middle of it. Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges. [music] In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community, engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insight only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, you can sign up for the Morning Report newsletter, which offers examples every day of owners confronting challenges and seizing opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats [music] Morning Report to subscribe. Joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Kate Morgan who is CEO of Boston Human Capital Partners which is based in Boston and offers recruiting and fractional HR services, Jackie Russo, CEO of Brand Russo, a marketing [music] agency based in Lafayette, Louisiana, and Ted Wolf who is CEO of Guidewise [music] which helps businesses implement AI and is based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. The episode is titled Hot Seat. Three [music] owners, no easy answers. Welcome, Kate, Jackie, and Ted. It's great to have all of you here. I want to do something a little different today. I want to throw a bunch of somewhat random questions at you. They're all about owning a business and building a business, running a business, but still a little random. But I'm just going to toss them out there. Anyone can respond. >> I have questions. Is there a speed? Is there a prize for the winner? How does this work? [laughter] >> We're playing it by ear, Jackie. >> All right. All right. >> We're gonna award the worst answer today. >> Oh, yay. I'm in. [laughter] >> All right. Let's uh let's get going here. Let's give it a shot. Number one, just pretty basic, simple. Are any of you hiring? >> Yes. >> I just onboarded three new people. >> Wow. >> Beautiful. >> And what types of positions? >> Uh Kate went first. I was going to let her answer first. >> Oh, for for me it's all in the talent acquisition space. >> And how did the hiring process go? What what did it tell you about the market out there? Was it easy? Was it hard? What did you see? >> Uh, no. Super disappointed [laughter] because I love growing uh early careered folks. And uh it's awful that there's no work ethic. Uh, I hate to be that person on the wrong side of 50 shaking my fist and going kids these days. Yeah. >> Uh, well, tell me just a little bit more. What What are you seeing? What's the problem? >> Yeah. So, the bulk of young people are coming out of college. They haven't had internships. They never had high school jobs because their parents told them, "Your job is school and sports." But the problem is the world becomes so engineered that people don't know how to react and we need people that can react on their own. They can problem solve. They have all these initial, you know, the intrinsic skills and they don't. >> Jackie, are you seeing anything like that? I would not say that that is wrong, but I think we have dodged some of those bullets. And I don't know that we've done anything smarter and better than anybody else. It could just be a lot of dumb luck. We have a uh constantly open positions for every place in the company, including my seat on the website. So, we're always getting talent. So when we had a designer who was leaving us after years because they're going to work inhouse, you know, one client which is and from home different than what we do here, what we're doing, you know, hundreds of things for hundreds of people. And so we had a list of people who had applied in the past few weeks. reached out to them, interviewed a few, hired somebody, and she is, you know, on day four, and we couldn't be more pleased with attention to detail, work ethic, hit the ground running, just rockstar. Um, we've hired a PR coordinator who started as an intern for us, went to part-time, and is now full-time after graduating. and we just did a big presentation where she spent I don't know 30 minutes presenting this entire PR plan for a new client. We're in the middle of our Razor branding strategic brand planning process for them and she hit it out of the park like did the presentation herself to senior leadership and rockstar and then a marketing coordinator who uh started with us a couple of weeks ago. And at this point I'm about ready just to hand her the keys and the alarm codes and let her run the whole shop because she's smart. She's so smart. And so, no, we're pleased. >> Sounds like the key there is that you have something of a relationship with these people already. Uh, >> one of them, only one we have a relationship with. The other two are new to us. >> Uh, but the thing with them, the other two, is that at least you'd had some interaction with them. Uh, and you weren't just starting cold. They had already expressed an interest. >> Yes. Yes, they had. And I think that does help. >> How about you, Ted? Um yeah, we just hired an individual and had a very very good experience. Hired him as a um AI technical person and uh programming has a great background and we found we like to center ourselves around a college if we can. We my son and I own the business. We both went to Penn State University and other than their football program, it's been this year it's been very promising for us, very good. Um, and I think what we're doing this a little bit differently maybe is, and I'm not saying that nobody else is doing this, but we really hit them hard on the interview as far as um, starting back in high school. How'd you spend your time? Tell me a real difficult situation and what you did to get out of it. And we've been able to find some people that I think want to get in the AI. So, that's becoming really I mean, that's a big drawing card for a lot of people. Um, they want to be in it ground floor hands-on and everything. So, it might be we just got lucky on this time. I don't think so. I know a lot of people are having trouble and uh Kate, I understand exactly what you're talking about, but we don't have that problem. Haven't had that problem. Um and I don't know if we're doing anything different or it's just good luck to be honest with you. >> For us, the challenge is like there's no college program that you can pull these people out of. >> Yeah. And so that's why I'm I'm trying to groom folks. And you know what they hear is they hear rec, you know, talent acquisition, they think recruiter, they think sales. We don't work on commission. And because we're more consultants, we have to have a really extremely high bar because they're going to be interfacing with executives very early in their tenure with us. So our bar is crazy high. We we have them go through these hoops and they just fall out throughout the process. >> And if I may ask, why is it that they're falling out? What do you think? >> Uh >> don't have the drive. >> Yeah, there's there's no motor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's no mo motor. We need intellectual curiosity. We need them. And they just start to look at it as, wow, this is going to be like too much like hard work. >> Yes. >> Reminds them of their parents, right? [laughter] >> What level is this, Kate? apparently not entry level. H how senior a position is this? >> No, no, it I I would rather take somebody without any experience in my industry because when we bring people in from my industry, I have to break all their horrible habits. So, I I can't really take anybody that's fresh out of college, they have to have life experience. >> But you said these people will be dealing with executives pretty quickly. So, I guess you throw them in the fire. um after some training. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. But I look at it from the perspective like my my daughter works for private equity. You know, when she first went in, she was sourcing. So, she's reaching out to folks doing essentially what my my team does except for, you know, we're doing more consultative side stuff. But I just don't understand. Yeah. It's no drive. No drive. >> I think uh all three of you have had other jobs other than running your own business. based on something Kate wrote recently. I'm curious to ask you uh Kate, you used a different word, but I'll say what was the worst job [laughter] each of you has ever had. Anybody? >> Uh I'll go first. Um I was really young uh preol high school, worked on a dairy farm and um had to wash cows and get them ready for milking. [laughter] And uh the farmer who hired me said, "I'll pay you at that time 25 cents an hour. This was in May. He said, "I'll pay you in October when I get paid. I'll keep you account of your hours, but I'll show you how to grow up." And his growing up was at the end of the day, he'd buy everybody a beer. Okay, I drank a beer and got sick. Last week, he brought in chewing tobacca. [laughter] I tried that, got sick. So, the guy really made me grow up fast and find out what I didn't want. I will say that. But he did hold his word. in October I got [laughter] paid. >> There's nothing better than farm work. So, I grew up on a farm. >> Okay. >> And so that that like set the stage for for me. Uh but I I will say my my worst job was actually working at a uh it was a state-run assisted living facility in Western New York. And uh it was really really tough because there was a lot of cognitive decline and um it it was really awkward because there was this two people that were always having like this hanky panky. So I'd be like walking in on >> awkward. [laughter] >> Yeah. At 16 I'm like, "Oh, dear Lord, I don't need to see that." [laughter] >> Scared you for life. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Oh, totally. >> They were probably the happiest people in the facility. [laughter] >> They were. Exactly. Yeah. >> How about you, Jackie? Did you have a terrible job? >> First ever job. I was probably 9 or 10 and there was some um fig and pecan trees. We had been mosquito coasted to a town called Granau about 45 minutes away from where I live now in Lafayette. And it was country like there was no stoplight. It was long distance and we were removed from basically all society. So there were these uh fig and pecan trees not too far away and I would go pick them and then walk to the local country grocery store and sell them for so much a pound. Um and that was my first job. So entrepreneur from the early days. worst job was high school working Taco Bell drive-thru on um Friday nights during football season when I'm working the Taco Bell and everybody from my school is driving through to get their Taco Bell after the game. Um those were not good days. [laughter] >> Did any of you take anything from those worst jobs that is still useful as you think about what you're doing running your own business? No, [laughter] >> I did. >> I guess >> I I wonder is it dementia or is it syphilis? But [laughter] I digress. Um, I mean, kind of stemming from what Ted said, you know, like if you work hard, it builds character, you get grit because, you know, back back in this was in the 80s, you know, for me, >> there weren't a lot of jobs, so you just did what you could and you didn't have the allowance. So, you learned how to manage your own money and there was just so much benefit from it. The benefit I got was, you know, it was a it was way back in time and there wasn't a lot of jobs available as Kate just said and, you know, we had one car. I had to be able to walk to the farm. I had to be able to walk to wherever I was going to go. And um actually the biggest lesson that I learned was he hired a bunch of kids that were in high school. And he knew how to, believe it or not, manage them because at the end of every day of work, he'd build a fire. We'd smell it as we're working. We could see the fire. would come over and he'd have drinks for us and stuff and non-alcoholic, I should say. And then he made some food and we talked and had fun and he told jokes and he told us how to sing some dirty songs and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, actually kind of looked forward to it cuz it was fun and it wasn't sitting at home watching TV and he learned how to make you feel like you belong to something special and all it was was a dairy farm. So that was invaluable for me. >> Jackie, did you take anything from your job that's still useful? >> Oh, absolutely. a lot of motivation to not be poor, a really good work ethic, [laughter] um a need to be u resilient and uh an ability to not have shame. You cannot serve all the cool kids of high school uh tacos with extra sour cream uh without feeling a little shame in the early days. And I quickly learned to get over that and be proud of myself and what I've done. You know, we have four kids and they worked. Even though they had sports and school and all the things, they still worked. They had jobs and whether it was at our company when they had free time, which they worked harder than the other employees because there's no favorites here, or at outside jobs, which they found to be better paying and less stressful. Um, I think that's important part of the growing up experience. >> Next question. Have any of you bought Bitcoin or any other crypto product? >> Nope. Nope. [laughter] >> Um, didn't buy Bitcoin. I'm still kicking myself for not doing that. [laughter] Um, crypto, yes. Uh, mixed results and uh, still feels a little bit like the Wild West to me. >> I have a question. If you had bought Bitcoin at the point you wanted to, >> Mhm. >> would you still be holding it or would you have sold it at some point along the way? And if so, at what point? Uh that's a great question. Uh and I learned a lot about myself from doing some trading and that is that uh I was impatient and I probably would not have held it because I had tens of thousands of Apple stock at $13 and I ended up selling it and made a little money. I should say made some nice money, but not what it could be today if I had held it. So >> yeah, we're at 250 right now. We've split a couple times. >> Yeah. >> Sorry not to rub it salt in [laughter] that wound. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That's one of the ones I've never end of the day. Thank you. Thank you, Jackie. [laughter] >> Well, I asked because when I lived in Los Angeles, you know, single, I was in my 20s before I moved back home to Lafayette, Louisiana, and I I owned my house out there and kept it for the first three or four or five years once I moved back and then sold it. And Michael and I were back uh in the city a couple of months ago and drove past it and foolishly I looked up what it's worth right now, speaking of being sick about it. But then I kept thinking, would I still own it? Would I have sold it at some point? At what point along its rapid growth of value would I have sold it? And then I I realized there's no right answer there. >> Yeah. No, there's not. And I think you're right. But uh you know, there's another stock though that should have bought. It was at $6 about two years ago and it was up at $90 just the other day. But got busy with working, didn't do it, and that's life. >> So I I don't want to say the company, but they were a client of ours. We actually had two two companies that were in the cryptocurrency space and their coin at one point was worth uh 2,700 and then tanked and was 11 cents. >> Yeah. >> I experienced some of those also. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So Ted, you've bought crypto as an investment the way you would a company stock. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I still have it today. Can't say that I made an awful lot because crypto, you know, in the last year or two, I think, has been having some problems. But, uh, I think longterm there's a trend out there. I don't think it's going to go away. Um, you know, obviously I can't see into the future that far, but um, I think it's always good to have a little bit of that in gold. [laughter] >> Are you sitting on some gold right now? Cuz that would be a good investment. Interesting. >> Oh, yeah. I bought a lot of gold years ago. >> Wow. I thought most business owners put it all into the business. >> Well, what little that I could afford, I put into it. Let's put it that way. It's all relative. >> [laughter] >> Um, if I gave each of you $10,000 a month to spend on marketing, [clears throat] what would you do? Jackie, you go last. >> I figured. [laughter] >> I think for for me it would be really focused on building out my personal brand for speaking. I think that's the the critical piece right now. I've always done well just word of mouth with my own own business. So, I I don't think I would do much there. So, if you're spending it on promoting your own brand, especially for speaking, where [clears throat] are you spending it? >> Oh, I don't know. I' I'd hire an agency. That would be the $10,000. [laughter] >> Okay, Ted. >> I'd probably go to Jackie and ask her for some advice. Um >> Oh, thank you. >> Well, [laughter] you're going to get that anyway. I want to know what you think. >> Uh I would spend $10,000 a month to build a community. And I' I'd build a d a network first personal network and then I would build a community out of that. And the community would be where people would be coming in close community. And that's where you would really start finding the leads, the referrals, working together, helping each other succeed. I think that's the I think for myself that's what I think the future holds. I don't have a lot of faith in email. SEO is changing because of chat, GPT I should say, and open AI, but I would build it into community um referrals, very strong support, and it takes me back to the farm days. Make people feel like they belong to something. >> And asking for a friend. How would you attract people to this community? >> Um, two things. Um, is what I found. Books meaning plural that you would write. And number two, podcast. That's what I would do because that's where you can get an awful lot of echo chambers going on and people hearing from you in a lot of different areas and positions you as an idea person and if you can actually demonstrate that I think it brings a lot of credibility versus an email that you send out twice a week. That's my own personal experience. >> Jackie, if I gave you $10,000 a month to spend marketing your marketing agency, what would you do? Well, I think everybody's answer should always start with strategy. And so to have a plan is the first thing. An assessment of what you're doing right now so you can really step back. And so I would hire another agency who has outside perspective because I don't think you can properly evaluate yourself. You can't stand inside the house and also look at your house from the street. You can't do that at the same time. And so you need to really know what your curb appeal looks like. So I would get an outside third party um who could have conversations with my clients not involving me so they get real answers um people who aren't with us anymore, people who should be with us uh but haven't become so yet and get a real good assessment of us compared to competitors and a real understanding of how we are missing because everybody is the ability to explain ourselves in a way that cuts through the clutter and connects with people and um that's what I would do. >> So Jackie, yes on that um it sounds like I had the right answer then, right? >> Yes, absolutely. [laughter] Well, I I will give you points for your answer, but really y'all both did because building a community is also valuable and you would need a plan for that. It all has to start with a plan and too many people approach marketing in just a tactical way. Uh they are hammers. They see everything as nails and they just go do. And when we back up and actually approach it like an architect planning something, then we have a toolkit and we can match the right tool to the right opportunity and it all goes much better. >> By the way, I do agree with that an awful lot. I think that's very good. >> Jackie, I I'm [clears throat] going to guess that it's not very common for a marketing agency to hire another marketing agency to do its marketing. Maybe it happens, but I I haven't heard that a lot. Have you ever actually done that? I have not. Um I have heard of it happening. We've had some hire us. Um but I have not hired others, but I we've worked for gosh probably five different agencies in 25 years where we've done exactly what I just described for somebody else. They're not a direct competitor. So there was no issue and we went and did our process for them. And to watch the light bulbs go off, for them to realize that they've been making the same mistakes that they educate their clients to not make, it was it was fun. Actually, it was really fun. >> So, that leads to an obvious question. Why haven't you done it? >> I'm waiting for your $10,000 check to arrive. [laughter] >> That's quick. >> It's in the mail. >> That was quick. [laughter] >> All right. So, the check the check has arrived. [laughter] Are you actually going to do it? >> Oh, I would in a heartbeat. The thing is they're going to charge more than 10 grand. Uh, but I absolutely would because I think it's valuable and there are a number of agencies that I have great respect for that I think do really good work and I think they would provide insight. No one can really be their own best judge, critic, and teacher. >> What was the best advice any of you ever got? Anyone? >> You mean from a business perspective? >> Uh, yes. Uh for me, someone said to me, you have to if you're going to have your own business, you have to learn how to make money and save money. Most people focus on making money. I thought that was very interesting and it stuck with me for a long long time. >> And what was the upshot of that? How what what did that lead you to do? Actually, >> it made me look at a business. My background from college education is finance. So when I would look at financial statements, it would make me look at it and ask two questions. Where am I making money? Second one, where can I save money? cuz sometimes when you save money, you make a lot more money and uh sometimes you don't. But it just made me look at the um financial aspects of a business and the operating aspects of a business much much differently. And it made me look for where I can actually kind of get a boost, how could I say, in productivity. I owned a restaurant at one time and I found out we had if we had a special event at the restaurant um once a month it was almost giving us an extra weekend's income and that made all the difference in the world and that was the type of thing of okay where can we make money and save money? What do I got to do? Spend a little bit more money here I'll make it paid off for me learning how to do both. >> So mine's mine's a little bit more rudimentary. I had been working on a business plan that was sort of actually gonna be a a version of HelloFresh way before HelloFresh and uh I brought it to a CEO that had been a client. >> That's an online grosser I >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um I brought it to the CEO that I had been working for and I told him that like this is what I'm kind of thinking and he went through the business plan. He goes, "Well, this is great." He goes, "You're stupid to go into any business you know nothing about." And I said, [laughter] "Fair enough." And meanwhile, I'd worked on this for like four months. And so I I put it down and six weeks later I launched Boston Human Capital Partners because that I did know and it's been successful for 15 years. >> So you ever think about going into the online grocery business? >> Nope, not anymore. It's it's a crowded crowded market. Jackie, >> you know, I will tell you that I've had some similar advice in terms of, you know, it's not what you make, it's what you spend that's going to determine the success of your business. I don't think I've listened to that at some times as well as I should have. I think we've talked about openly that I've adopted profit first um as our code of ethics for 2026. And honestly, 3 weeks in, I'm already seeing a change in how I think, how I track things. my team will tell you I am on their behinds about spending and it's it's a whole new world and so it's been very interesting to see how it has taken hold and I'm excited to see when we all get together in May at the 21 hats in person conference what kind of report I'm going to be able to deliver to everybody because I think it's going to be pretty impressive. Uh I think I'm going to stop talking about revenue and I'm start talking about profit I've kept and that's a way better number for me to look at. It makes me happy. But most of the business advice that I've gotten has really been watching other people's examples, both good and bad. And the best most practical one I can refer to is uh two. One is uh a guy named Stan Richards who started the Richards Group uh which is a big agency in Dallas. They're one of the biggest independent agencies. They haven't been scooped up by one of the conglomerates. And I think I've even told this story on the podcast before, but um we got an RFP, which we don't do anymore, but we got an offer opportunity to do one. It was way bigger than us. I have greatly admired Stan's business and what he's built. You'll know every one of his clients. You know, it's Motel 6 and Chick-fil-A and all these amazing campaigns. And so I I reached out to them to see if they wanted to partner on it. And about two hours after I sent out a query to the website of a company that has over a thousand employees, I got a phone call from Stan Richards himself. >> Wow. >> And I thought at first somebody was just yanking my chain, but it was absolutely him. And we had a lovely conversation and he politely explained to me why we weren't going to be partnering. [laughter] It was so kind though and it really taught me a lot about attention to detail, reply, response times, u never looking an opportunity down until you know what the full opportunity is. And it was just it was um it really set me in motion for a lot of things I think I still do better today because of that. And the other is a guy named Rick Freyard who was married to a boss that I had. Um it wasn't his agency. I worked for his wife. Uh, but he was really invested in her success and therefore in all of us. And so he would show up at the office at 6:00 a.m. and therefore so did I. Um, to go through training with him uh before my job started at 8. And I was a little about it. Sorry for the language, but there's no other word that applies. And uh I was not respectful and I I did not give him u the time of day that he deserved. He was an incredibly successful man. And so he so wisely six months later fired me. Um which was a great lesson. Wow. >> And um both of those two interactions I think really set me in an important direction in my career. >> That's great when you can look at being fired as a form of advice. >> Well, I didn't at the time. [laughter] >> Well, I've been there, too, and I didn't either. >> No, but I I do I look back on that. It it set in motion so many things. All good. Now, uh, it did happen 3 weeks before my wedding, so the timing wasn't great. Uh, but it it it it was the wakeup call I needed because I had a bit of an attitude and it needed to be adjusted. >> What's holding any of you back right now? What challenge do you need to solve? What decision are you putting off making? What's holding you back? >> I think for me, it's just our businesses really booming right now. At the same time, my book is doing so well. So, it's hard to do both. >> What a terrible problem. >> I know. >> I know, right? Yeah. [laughter] >> But it's it really is a you know, where where do I put my my mind share? And I think if I can get these roles filled, that will help me. But that's why I'm also making sure that we keep the bar as high as possible. We just can't afford to bring somebody in that's not going to be successful. >> Are you doing something different? Are you trying a different approach given what's happened so far? >> Uh, no. It's just you have to be stringent and I'm an impatient person. I'm an Aries so like I just I'm just not a patient person. So I get really frustrated because it feels like the people that we're talking to, they're just stunted in some way and it's disappointing. But this is your industry. You've been doing this a long time. You you must have some idea what your next step is. >> Well, yeah. I mean, we we do. It's It's just Do we spend the time upfront breaking bad habits from people within the industry? It just doesn't feel right. So then trying to convince somebody to come into our industry, it just takes a little longer. So, um, again, it was easier to recruit Gen X and millennials, Gen Z. It's not so much. >> Jackie, is there anything holding you back? >> Time. Lauren, I always want more time. I um keep taking on new things and that's my both Achilles heel and my superpower all at the same time. And so, my word for the year is balance. And I'm very focused right now on bringing more balance into what I'm doing and not letting my time get lopsided from one company to the other. >> One company to the other meaning the different companies. >> Right. So, so you know we have Brand Russo the agency, Brand State, the educational platform and the consulting work that I do and then growth X Academy is launching like five cohorts this year uh for first stage businesses in partnership with um Louisiana economic development, a program for rising seuite executives to help them do a better job of taking over companies that they are um purchasing or ascending into. And then uh women's uh business cohorts that's national. So that's a lot. >> Yeah. >> So I just want more time because I I love all of those things. It's like picking between my kids. I just want to have more time for all of them. [laughter] It's all fun. I don't want it to stop. >> And hopefully they'll take care of you once they get older. Right. >> That's the plan. That is the plan. Um, if there's anything that's holding me back, I'd say right now, it's uh, I don't know how to phrase this correctly, but there seems to be some latency in business today. It's like it takes a long time to get an answer from people. Um, I'm going to give you an example. Um, >> dealing with Claude, >> the AI window, they double build me on the same day due to an error on their part, not mine. They even sent me an email. that's our fault. So I said, I'd like to cancel one of the double bills. And they said, okay, we gave you a credit for one, and this is all through email. And it wasn't like back and forth email. And it ends up they said, we'll give you a cancel for on one, a cancellation on one, but you'll pay for it for the next 30 days until that cancellation runs in effect. And I said, in other words, I got to pay for an extra month on Claude for a license I don't need cuz I already have one. And they still haven't gotten back to me. And this is probably a week now. And I find that very frustrating. And I find it bleeds in a lot of areas. It just seems like it's so hard to communicate and get communication and a decision and get something done on trivial things such as that. That's what I'm running into. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but business didn't work that way in the past. >> You'd think AI could figure that one out. >> Mhm. >> Um, >> well, I don't think AI is there yet. And I hate to say this, but I hate to say this, but in the old days, you actually talk to a person and you got something done. You got decisions made and you can move on. And what you could get done on in a week would be incredible. Now it's slow incremental movements. You're not sure. Then all of a sudden, you know, something happens and uh put you back in frame zero and you're working and starting all over. I just find that frustrating and overall it might be just my experience, but uh I find that seems to be holding me back more than I like. >> Jackie, it sounded like you were agreeing that it's taking longer to get people to make decisions. >> Well, I would have two uh responses to that. one, we were told that a certain software platform could do a certain feature and so believing that signed a contract upon logging in um within 12 minutes realized, oh, it did not do that at all. Immediately emailed them and said, "Hey, we've had this account for all of 12 minutes. There's a problem. It doesn't do the thing that you said it would that we told you we needed, so we need to cancel it." I am now in the third month of fighting with them because they want me to pay this multi thousands of dollar contract for something that doesn't do the thing I told them it needed to do. Um, so >> do they dispute that? >> Uh, well their theory is you really need the thing we do. You don't really need the thing you think you need. [laughter] Um, so then I am in a bit of a chat with a company that we use for all of our on camera video meetings. I'm not naming them, but it rhymes with room. Um, we have cancelled [laughter] our webinar service with them 14 times since last March according to my email threads. And yet they just don't believe that I I should live with that. they think it's a really important part of my business and I just don't know how important it is and if I just gave it a chance they last message I got [laughter] today I'm like no I've given it a chance we're not using you anymore so there's that kind of stuff but then my real reaction was around um clients now we've grown over time our you know value has gotten bigger and so I know that our ticket price has gotten bigger but I am still shocked by the amount of I'm going to say hemming and hawing And I don't mean it disrespectfully, um, but man, like make a decision. >> And do you think that's reflective of the current economic environment or something else? >> I really don't know it. It seems to be and because I've tried to isolate it so we're doing a better job of tracking. Is it we didn't do a good enough job of there being trust and so they came in cold. They don't really know us and so that's why. And so I'm looking at that compared to people who have been on our email list, have been listened to our podcast, have had conversations with us, have seen me speak at a conference, have bought the book, you know, whatever. And so where's the line? And so I haven't quite figured it out yet, but I think I'm close. And I think I'm going to be able to figure out pretty soon what the common denominator is. Lauren, I think some of what I'm feeling based on what you had just asked is I think we might be reaching the a real inflection point in using technology, thinking technology will solve everything. And here I am in AI and I know I'm talking about it and it may be against the grain, but I think we're reaching a point where we're saying we still need some people involved and maybe we're going to learn how to put people back involved if we can and not just rely on technology to do everything because there is a steep learning curve. It moves real fast. It's constant change and not everybody can keep up with it and that's not really good I think long term for a business environment. >> Do any of the three of you have a question you'd like to put before the group? I can keep going but if there's something that you would like to ask. >> I'd like to know where Jackie gets her energy. [laughter] >> It's from all the water I drink all day. I'm very hydrated [laughter] >> and your skin blows. >> It's a little wrinkly now. I'm about to be 56 in a few in mere days and uh I'm feeling it. I'm starting to feel it. You know what it is? I like what I do. I am very driven to um keep managing these three different entities that I run. And so I think I have the same level of energy no matter what. But I've got to bring a little bit more to the table because I'm not just running one company. And so it does take a little more time, attention, and activity to make that happen. But it's fun. And now's the time. This is a seize the day moment and if I wait I'm going to miss a worm or something in the morning. So I got to go. [laughter] >> Jackie, you said you live in Louisiana. Is that right? >> I do. >> I thought the pace down there was a little slower. >> That's the advantage. Don't tell the others. >> Okay. [laughter] Okay. So, you were the one that went to California and you worked harder and made a lot of money and everybody was saying, "Why doesn't you ever get down to the beach, right?" >> Well, no. I actually lived about three blocks from the beach uh when I first got there and learned to surf and um I was a big fan of outdoor activities. My first job though I worked at a company called Creative Artist Agency which is actors and actresses and A-list talent and that was an 80hour work week. It was very much a if you don't come in on Sunday don't bother coming back on Monday kind of place. So I didn't really experience the California lifestyle when I was at that job. Um that was my first two years out of college. But then after that, I was I was an executive and I had a little more free time and I got to really enjoy it. Was it was hard to leave. I think I still brought a little bit of it home with me. So I try to keep a little bit of that vibe still in me, but I um I [clears throat] I like what I do and I like the people I get to do it with and that is energizing to me. >> What's the simplest task, the simplest aspect of running a business that you feel you've never really figured out? >> [laughter] >> You know that is such a hysterical question because there's so much [laughter] >> like honest to god I've never been into QuickBooks. >> I hate it. >> Well, I've never been in like I my head >> never even opened it up. >> No. And legit my my head of operations could be robbing me blind and I wouldn't even know I should be concerned. He splits his time between here and Europe. So, you know, he could walk out. But honest to God, I've never I've never been in book QuickBooks. He downloads stuff. I request stuff and that's how I want it. Just give it to me on Dashboard. Don't ask me to get into it. >> I am in it and I do not enjoy it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I don't I don't do anything I don't like. If there's something I don't like, I just pay people to do it because they're they're just naturally going to do it better than me. And I get angry when I'm showing stuff I don't like. >> Are you paying someone else to have a second set of eyes on your books just to make sure? >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Anybody else? >> Lauren, I'd like to ask you a question. >> Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'll be happy to answer it. >> Okay. >> I bet there's something about running a business, and I know you've done a lot of businesses, Ted, that's been a while, but there's probably something that you're still not comfortable with. What is it? >> Um, I would just say complacency. A lot of people don't like change. I seem to love change. I think change is really good. Um, I look between the the lines. >> Wait a second. That's something you're good at. >> But no, no, no. What what I don't like is people that don't like change and they're really >> You haven't figured out how to make them understand. >> Yeah. It takes a lot of convincing sometimes. And um for me I look at it and you know in some ways although I may not talk as fast as Jackie I think like her mind and it's one idea to the next and I find when people are really status quo oriented it kind of gets under my skin. Looking for the next thing it's exciting and it's an adventure and I can learn so much from it and uh not everybody feels that way. So when I find other entrepreneurs even that might be in that boat, um I feel kind of an extra incentive to say, "Okay, I got to help them get through this somehow." But it's the whole idea of change and not accepting it that I find annoying. >> Jackie, how about you? Is there some seemingly simple aspect of running a business that you're still not comfortable with? >> I am really not good at the paperwork part of it. So, the QuickBooks, the stuff you got to turn into the state for new employees, filing this thing and that thing, and I like I have people, I have a bookkeeper, I have CPA, there's still stuff I'm supposed to do, and it is the bane of my existence, >> but isn't that I mean, an HR person, a >> Yeah, but we're just not quite big enough for a real HR person. and fractional. Hasn't really was something we've considered but haven't really figured out how to make that work right for us. >> A COO. >> Yeah. Thought about that and had one for a while. Loved that. Um but you know, we we went through that shift last year where I moved all these resources into this new person and now we're kind of >> reassessing. So we've done some organizational shifts of how people fit into the ORC chart. And I actually have, you know, have talked about this not being a good thing I'm good at internally. And so we've kind of started with now that we're putting the right people in the right places again, what does their promotional opportunities look like, at what level do they come in? What do they need to learn or know to grow to move up to the next level? What does that entail? And so to me, that's the first step. Then I figure out where I want to fill some gaps and who I want to fill them with because we've got enough opportunities that people wear multiple hats, not 21 of them, but multiples inside the building. And so I want to make sure I'm filling the right open hat with the right head. >> Okay. Ted, you had a question for me? >> Yeah. >> What's holding you back? [laughter] >> Oh, nice. >> Oh, that's easy. Uh what's holding me back is I when I started doing this kind of created my own job and I gave myself too much to do and years later I'm still working way too much in the business instead of on the business. And I'm trying to pull myself out of that and find other ways to do what I've committed myself to do more efficiently or through some other means. That's part of the reason I'm taking that uh AI course right now. And in fact, I spent a lot of time today with Claude trying to get it to help me make my process in creating my daily newsletter a little more efficient. And I'm feeling a lot more optimistic about that than I ever have before. But >> exciting. >> But overall, that's what's holding me back for sure. >> Well, you have a very good newsletter, podcast, and everything. So, I'm sure you'll work your way through it and you'll find some real success. Could I put you on the line with my wife? Uh, [laughter] >> I know that feeling. I've said that myself sometimes. >> All right, last question. At what point did you feel you were taking the biggest risk you've taken as a business owner? >> I'll go buying the building. >> Interesting. >> You know, we were four years old at that point. We had four kids and uh the youngest was probably eight or nine months old. The oldest would have been five. And we're buying a a 8,000 foot building in the middle of downtown Lafayette. And no one thought it was a good idea. Not our CPA, not the bookkeeper, not my internal CFO/COO at the time, not the bank, the second bank, third bank, or fourth bank. But I just I believed in it. I believed in downtown Lafayette. Uh I believed in the growth of this company. and I think real estate's good. And so we bought it and man am I glad. [laughter] >> What What got you over the hump? What gave you the nerve to do what everyone was telling you not to do? >> Because I approach almost everything with the same mindset. It's going to work out one way or the other. >> But it doesn't always, does it? >> It always does. It absolutely always does. [laughter] 100% of the time it works out one way or the other. >> You get fired and you learn a lesson from it. Yes. Yes. Look, when my kids used to leave like in high school and they would go out with their friends or go to a sleepover, go to a dance, go to whatever, um they will tell you the most horribly embarrassing and frustrating aspect of their young lives was when I would tell them the same exact thing every time they'd leave the house, whether they were by themselves or with a group of 10 friends. Hey, do not make a life or take a life tonight. That's it. Anything else we can cover? [laughter] Those are my guardrails. Do you still talk to you today? >> Barely. >> One one of them works for her. [laughter] >> Two of them work for me actually. >> Oh, >> but they are barely talking to me when that story comes back up. They were horrified. [laughter] But we can work through anything. Those two things would be harder. And it's crazy because now I'm like, why can't any of you get pregnant? Please. [laughter] You're all adults. I am ready for grandchildren. This is my timeline. [laughter] That's awesome. >> K, what did you feel was the biggest risk you took? >> Um, you know, I gotta be honest. I don't know if I I'm pretty calculated. So, looking back, I mean, I don't see anything that was really huge. I mean, I think a lot of people were a little shocked when I decided to, you know, go with the publisher and drop so much coin on that, but, you know, that really worked out. >> So, starting the business wasn't didn't feel risky. No, because literally when I started the company, I was an independent and I just started bringing some 1099s on and eventually I did bring on my first full-time hire. But that like I just figured if it didn't work, I'd just slip off into the abyss and be a soloreneur again. >> Well, that kind of makes a great point. I think I I think a lot of people make the same assumption about entrepreneurs that they're just naturalb born risk-takers and I don't think most of the time that's actually right. I think they are smart about taking calculated risks and it sounds like that's what you did starting your business. You didn't go out and raise money and hire a bunch of people and then see if it worked. Um you did it on your own and then hired contractors to supplement that as you as you grew. Is that right? >> Yep. Yep. Ted was talking about profit. So, I've always been profit focused as opposed to revenue. So, what's that that old adage that they say? Profit's vanity. Uh, no, sorry. >> Revenue is vanity. Profit is sanity. >> Right there. Right. [laughter] >> All I know is I want cash is king and that's what I got. And I'll always ride on that. We don't have any loans out. I've always been cash flow positive. Um, I invest it, I reinvest it. You had a period, you've talked about here, Kate, where your revenues declined uh pretty significantly. Were you able to remain profitable even during that? And is that why it didn't feel terribly risky at the time? >> Right. Yeah. No, and that my team really appreciated it because they knew I was not going to let them go. Uh so we were reduced, but we still had we still were profitable. And yeah, you just manage your books right >> even if you don't open them. Exactly. [laughter] Ted, how about you? My brother and I both work for IBM. Left IBM, started a business, as I've talked in and explained some to some detail before, but everybody thought we were crazy. We had $1,000 we put in. My parents even said, "We don't think you're going to be able to do this. Why are you doing this?" [laughter] And that was kind of uh shocking in a way. But uh we got off and about uh four years later we lost 40% of the revenue in one weekend. And we sat back and the hardest thing we had to do was take ownership of it and say we own everything we did. And um we did that. We made a lot of changes. That sent me down an avenue of understanding how to get people to adopt change and how to myself face a lot of uncertainty. I mean, massive uncertainty cuz we were, it was embarrassing cuz, you know, we had to go to the bank that Monday morning and tell them we had a material change. Lines of credit had to, you know, covenants were being violated and everything. So, we had to talk our way out of that. Um, pretty humbling, but we put a lot of changes in place. We worked and I can't say that we weren't scared and we didn't have doubts and it was just nothing but necessity on us and 5 years later we were in the Inc. 500 as one of the 500 fastest growing companies, privately owned companies in America. >> Can I ask a quick question? >> Mhm. >> Sure. >> We don't have a line of credit. So I I Why did you have to go to the bank and talk to them about a client change? >> We had covenants [clears throat] because we had lines of credit because we were growing extremely fast and cash flow would not pay for everything, >> right? So, we needed to tap into the lines of credit and all of a sudden I don't have the revenue to cover this line of credit and other things. Man, I couldn't go ask them for more money. So, we said, "Okay, well, we've got to figure some other things out." But, we had to keep the bank informed because I didn't want to break any laws or anything and just wanted open books, wanted open, honest conversation. I think they appreciated it. They worked with us and we never left them to be honest with you because they stood by us. So that's a part of the line of credit is there's an expectation that you have X revenue coming and so when that changes especially of such a level you have a legal responsibility to tell them I had no idea >> and they say to you you need to pay back everything that you've borrowed. >> Exactly. They could have called in all the loans, lines of credits and everything. >> Fascinating. >> So that was very scary um from a financial standpoint, from an emotional standpoint. I have to admit there was more than once we both looked at each other and said, "Geez, maybe everybody was right. maybe we can't do this. Uh, but we kept working. Every day we just got up and went into work and just did what we had to do and it all started turning around. But learned a lot in the process. >> Well, this was fun. Um, my thanks to Kate Morgan, Jackie Russo, and Ted Wolf. I really appreciate it, guys. >> One thing before you go. Everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, [music] consider joining the conversation. You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd, or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum, where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. You can sign up for both by subscribing to the morning [music] report. If you have any questions, you can email me at lauren@21s.com. And if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report, please tell a friend, tell an enemy, tell every business owner you know. Your word of mouth owner to owner will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us. Thank you. It means a lot. This episode was produced by another entrepreneur, Jess Stubberon, founder of [music] Blank Word Productions. Thanks for listening, everyone.