How Many Clients Did That Post Bring You?

[Music] Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hacks podcast. I'm your host Lauren Feldman. This week, David C. Barnett, Kate Morgan, and Sarah Seagull compare notes on how they market themselves and their businesses online. All three are active on LinkedIn, but their strategies, investments, and even their goals are quite different. Are they seeking likes, credibility, clients? All three. Sales and revenue are ultimately the metric we have to look at, says David. Likes and shares don't pay any bills. Plus, Kate just spent what she calls a boatload of cash to publish a book. David self-publishes on Amazon for free. And Sarah, she's not writing a book at all. She hired a VP instead. It's a lively conversation about what works, what doesn't, and how small business owners decide where to invest their time and money. Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. Our hope is these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges. In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community, engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insights only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, step one is to sign up for a free trial of the Morning Report newsletter, which helps you navigate this interesting world in which we live. Every day, it highlights the most important news for business owners and shows how other owners are coping and finding opportunities. Step two is to get on our Slack channel where you can ask questions, get vendor recommendations, and tap the wisdom of a very impressive crowd. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. Joining me this week on the podcast are regulars David C. Barnett, who is based in New Brunswick, Canada, and helps people buy and sell businesses. Kate Morgan, who is CEO of Boston Human Capital Partners, which is based in Boston and offers recruiting and fractional HR services, and Sarah Seagull, CEO of Seagull Communications, a public relations firm based in San Francisco. The episode is titled, "How many clients did that post bring you?" [Music] Welcome, David, Kate, and Sarah. It's great to have you here. I'd like to talk today about what you guys are doing to uh get the word out about what you do. Um, for a while, what became known as content marketing was kind of all the rage. Eventually, I started reading that it was over, perhaps in part because it seemed like almost everyone was trying to do it, but it certainly hasn't gone away. And I'd like to take uh a look at the approaches each of you have chosen. Maybe we could start with you, Sarah. I know you've been thinking about how you use LinkedIn of late. >> So, I' I've always been a big fan of LinkedIn. Um, and I've used it pretty solidly throughout my career, and uh I do post on it pretty frequently, but I had the occasion to attend a 8week seminar with LinkedIn um where they kind of walk through best practices in terms of business posting. So I'd been working kind of in a deep dive for the last couple months on how better to advise my clients on leveraging w LinkedIn where you know the the days of the traditional press release are being replaced by LinkedIn posts. I was sent a book by um a member of 21 Hats um David Bilstrom called Own Your Brand and it's a it's kind of an entree book into LinkedIn um and he talks about like how to kind of set your LinkedIn up, how you should, you know, leverage it more than just being a resume. And it's really given me time to kind of do an audit of my own LinkedIn, which I'm still in the process of doing it. Um, but I I love LinkedIn, not just for, you know, the sharing of resources and information, but it's just a great way to keep connected and see what people are doing. >> Is there anything in particular that you picked up from the book or from your conversations with clients uh in terms of strategies? Well, you know, LinkedIn is very specific in terms of, you know, it's really trying to um maintain its focus on business. It doesn't want to become an Instagram or a Tik Tok. Um they really want to focus solely on the the news you can use, the the business updates. Um and really working to encourage people to kind of stay in that kind of narrow focus. That said, um there is a lot um of push to incorporate more video on LinkedIn and personalize brands with you know a day in the life on the HR side or uh you know a video from someone on the executive team explaining a decision that they've made or you know some other way to highlight the brand but in short form video. So, I haven't done that personally for my own brand, but I've done it a little bit on Tik Tok and I'm trying to figure out a way to better um incorporate that on LinkedIn just cuz I have a broadcast background. I'm like, I should be doing video. Like, I'm the the first person you think to be doing that. I just haven't figured out what my niche is yet. >> I talked to a lot of people who get frustrated with LinkedIn. They want to use it because they think their target audience is there, but they feel like they get lost in a lot of, you know, mediocre at best content on it. You know, people who are just um bragging about something as opposed to sharing really useful information. How do you think about that? >> Yeah, I mean that the braggards are that it's tiresome. I get that. But if you want the benefit to LinkedIn, especially in terms of new business, and then I'm curious what the the other panelists have to say, but I don't know that I get a lot of business directly from LinkedIn, but it's more of a resource for me. And LinkedIn has very clearly said that they're not boosting and prioritizing with their algorithm the braggard stuff. they're prioritizing things that are important business um information news you can use as I said and so some of that stuff is yeah it's filler you're going to like you're going to scroll past it pretty quickly so when you're out there posting on LinkedIn you just want to be thoughtful about what you're putting out there and it's it's not just about you posting but it's also about you interacting um so there's a value of maintaining relationships like Lauren I get most of my business through networking and meeting people and talking to people. And some of that networking is done on LinkedIn where you're commenting on someone's post. And if you're commenting consistently, it starts to establish a relationship like like any other platform >> and yet you don't think you're getting a lot of business out of it. >> I may, but I can't quantify it, right? I'm not getting people to messaging me directly through LinkedIn. I'm sure people find me on LinkedIn um but they don't necessarily mention me to to be honest in the last month I've gotten on calls with prospective clients and two out of three told me that they found me on chat GPT. So LinkedIn I see is a validator not a source for me but I don't know that if you know that's different for other people. >> David and Kate you're both active on LinkedIn. Do either of you think it's moving the needle in terms of business? Yeah, I I do actually. Um, but I don't think it's a very good place for discoverability. And so I think that if someone's going to think about a a marketing plan or strategy, um, I think you have to figure out what are you doing to be discovered by people who may suddenly realize they have a need of some kind and go looking for something or someone to answer that need. Um, and for me in my my own marketing strategy, that's why I'm on YouTube because it's the second biggest search engine on Earth. And I was just looking the other day at my most popular videos viewed over the last 90 days, for example. Only two of them were 2025 productions. All of the rest were older videos. Some of them, one of them was 9 years old. So the videos are specifically answering a certain question that somebody has and they go type that in either to Google or YouTube and then they find that video that I made. So that gets to your content marketing uh comment earlier uh Lauren. But if somebody starts watching my content and they say, "Hey, I I I like what this guy is saying. I'd like to keep in touch with this person." Then LinkedIn might be a place where they choose to send me a connection request and start following me. And so I think LinkedIn is important. LinkedIn is also important for someone who wants to as was just said like to validate, right? So you you someone might say, "Who is this person talking on YouTube? I'm going to look at look them up on LinkedIn and see what other people are saying about them and they can get into the whole background that I have on there, my work history, and and see what other people have said as far as recommendations and endorsements, my comments that I put on, you know, a conversation happening in some group somewhere." and they can decide uh if they think that I am someone that they want to be connected to. So I I get a lot of connection requests from people who will open up by simply saying, "Hey, I I discovered your stuff on YouTube or I read one of your books on Amazon and I wanted to connect with you because I think that I might want to talk with you about a project I'm going to be doing in the next few months." And so I think being there is critical uh as far as just remaining in contact with people and demonstrating, you know, that that um my background is real and and what I'm talking about is is uh valid or or trustworthy. >> David, is there a difference between what you post on YouTube and what you post on LinkedIn? >> So my my content strategy is is integrated. So when I create a new YouTube video for example um that will end up being embedded in a LinkedIn article and the LinkedIn articles get distributed by a LinkedIn newsletter and a lot of people follow that. So there are some people I think who probably follow and watch my videos because they follow me on LinkedIn but they may not be subscribed to me on YouTube for example. And it's just a matter of being where people want to follow you. you know, my my videos are also I remove the audio and put it onto a podcast feed, too, because some people just would rather listen in their car, for example. And so, um, you know, it's it's about helping the person to follow me wherever they are comfortable or or they spend their time. >> See, I I see LinkedIn as a very different tool from the both of you, I think. Um, so I mean just given my nature of my work, I I essentially live in LinkedIn, but you can actually be very aggressive with uh your your outreach there, you know, and I'll I'll tell this story real quick. Um, so we work with a serial entrepreneur who's um really highly regarded and posted something. He said, "Well, who's the top executive search uh recruiter in in the Boston area?" So, I grabbed the link and I sent it to 14 CEOs that I had done work with and I asked them all to reply with my name and now we're the dedicated recruiter for that serial entrepreneur. So it was really successful from a more dynamic perspective, but on the static side because again and it this could be really because I am in high-tech and biotech that we're all on LinkedIn endlessly and I I really feel it helps to validate who I am and I bring it with absolute authenticity. What I find is fascinating though is when I post content that's more specific to actually recruiting, I don't get as much buzz. But then I when I put the stupid crap up, I posted something about like I took a picture, this was a couple of weeks ago at a beach in Maine and I said something along the lines of the most boringest job is this lifeguard waiting for people to drown in ankle deep water. Well, I got 7,000 views on it. And what I also find it it really is sort of helping to make me normal. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it draws people in. And so I'll I'll have people reach out and go, "Oh, hey, I've been following you. You're hysterical." Or, you know, I love what you said there and just wanted to connect. >> Do you think that stupid stuff helps with uh business? I don't think it's stupid, by the way. >> Well, I'm using I'm using Shade Star. >> Thank you, Sarah, cuz I think I'm absolutely hysterical. Uh, but >> No, no. I think I think it's authentic. You know, so many people put on their business suit and their business hat and they show this, you know, professional part of them, but you know, the truth of the matter is none of us know what we're doing, right? And, you know, all of these jobs are just jobs. You know, we still all live, work, and die. >> Wait, that's not really true. What do you mean none of us know what we're doing? You You guys know what? >> Everybody knows what they're doing, Lauren. We're all figuring this stuff out. >> We're all figuring lots of stuff out, but you all know what you're doing. >> Pivoting when it doesn't go right. >> But I But I But it's authentic. Like I can tell you exactly which one of my posts did the best. And I know exactly why cuz it was that behind the scenes um honesty, right? I posted a photograph of my high school transcript for my freshman year in high school and it went it blew up, right? Because it like I did terribly my freshman year in high school. So like it was that hey, you know what? We're only all human. We're all trying to figure this out as we go. And you know, maybe being a lifeguard is not the coolest job in the world, but you know, it it is a job. I mean, you get to be outside, you know, like there's a lot of benefits to it. But I don't know. I I like this stuff. >> Hang on. Hang on. You said the post was successful. How many new clients did that post bring you? >> But I'm not getting clients from LinkedIn. >> Well, and and this is this is the issue that I that I have with a lot of people. I have actually given a talk about this at a conference in the past is that the metrics we see on social media, things like the likes, the shares, the subscribes, etc. the comments, they're vanity metrics. They don't actually have a business purpose. It's a metric that helps the social media platform in its algorithm because basically these social media platforms are trying to replace television. They want people's attention. And but you know in in the talk that I gave a couple years ago, I said, "Look, if you were trying to sell something back in 1985 and you had an opportunity to stand in front of a room of 30 qualified people, would you go to that event and give that talk?" And of course you would. And so if you put up any kind of social media content that only gets 35 views, but it gets viewed by 35 people that are ideal prospects that can use your product or service. To me, that's a very successful piece of content, but you're not going to be rewarded by the algorithm or anything like that for putting that out there. And that's the difference. You know, I get contacted all the time by people who want to offer to edit my videos and make them shinier and happier and and and you know, more alluring for people to watch, but you know, I don't want to put out content that's going to be alluring to 13-year-olds, right? I put out content that answers an entrepreneur's question who may have a need to hire me. And this is the tight rope I think people have to walk because I talk to people all the time who who will say I started to create online content but nobody ever watched it and I didn't get any followers so I quit. But if somebody's looking up for example how do I get a window replaced in Bangor Maine and you have a you're a window guy in Bangor and you have a video that says you know four different ways to replace a window in Bangor Maine and you're going to be the guy who comes up every time that is searched. You don't need a lot of views because you're getting the right views. >> Well, I think what you're looking at this is is like there's got to be a direct correlation to the the effort put out because it doesn't it doesn't cost anything really to put content out unless you want to pay for boosting. I'm in Boston and we we only trust people that we sort of know. And so for me, I I have to be out there. I have to be talking because that's how they're going to remember me. I think that's the big critical piece, >> right? >> It does cost something though. I mean, at least in terms of time. Have you thought, Kate, about how much time you devote to not just hanging out on LinkedIn, but actually creating content for it? >> Well, I'm I'm a prolific content creator. I just I I think stuff, I write stuff, and then I post stuff. So, and I'm using it sort of multi- channelannel. We have our newsletter that we're putting out, so I'll I'll kind of replicate it there, whatnot. But on a DISC profile, I'm dominant and high. So, I'm out there. I'm chatty. I'm gregarious that way. So, I'm going to put stuff out. And yeah, maybe there's a little bit of a dopamine surge when I see that I get 7,000, you know, instances, you know. So, I I I like it. I It doesn't bother me. And I really like to follow who's actually engaging because here's the thing. I don't want to deal with HR people. I want to deal with entrepreneurs. And so everything I talk about is going to be more about entrepreneurship than anything else. And I think what entrepreneurs, because that's the client I'm serve saying, they're looking for the, you know, a beacon in the storm. And so when I'm posting relatable things, it helps them feel more connected to me even before having that conversation. >> David, are there metrics that you do follow that you think do show the the true value of the content you're creating? >> Yeah. So on our engagement agreements, there's a space people have to fill in that says, "Where did you hear about us and our services?" And so when people sign up to hire us, they have to fill that in. And so a lot of people will fill it in like YouTube or they'll fill in I read one of your books or they'll they'll say someone shared something of yours on LinkedIn. So to me that's the ultimate validation because it's like where did the effort get invested to deliver this person to come and do business with us? And it's really difficult because, you know, it's it's you look at the subscriber count, for example, on a YouTube channel and you're like, "Oh, I want it to go up. I want it to go up." And my kids look at my channel and go, "Dad, you don't even have a million followers, right?" And so, it's not very impressive for them. But when I see the number of engagements increase every year and the number of those engagements that say YouTube on them, then that's what validates that the strategy and the effort that I'm employing there is working for us. >> How many clients do you work with at a time, though? We open, you know, usually two, three, four files a week. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And then there's other products we sell online. So there's a coaching program where we have a a a cohort of people in that program and we also have people who are just buying things like books and we have some online courses too. So, um, you know, all of those things are are making sales and I guess the sales and revenue are ultimately the the metric that we have to look at because, you know, likes and shares don't uh don't pay any bills. >> David, do you know how much time you devote to content creation? >> Yeah, I do. I I spend Monday mornings doing it and so I create uh basically content from 9:00 a.m. to 11:30 every Monday morning. And then I also do some email writing on Friday mornings. So, it's, you know, it's probably, what does that work out to be? It's, uh, maybe 10 to 15% of my week. >> Kate, you also recently made a decision to publish a book. Tell us about that. Why did you decide to write a book and and how did you do it? >> Yeah, well, I mean, I've never had sales. I've never actually had marketing budget. So, our cost of customer acquisition is essentially zero because it's all been referral-based. Thank you, LinkedIn. Um, but I knew the air was starting to leak out of the the balloon of high-tech and even even biotech. And that started in October of 2022. And I knew I needed to do something to help reinvigorate my my own brand. and everybody in my family is published. The joke was I was going to have a pop-up book or a coloring book to compete with my my family members. And it was my my business coach that was like, you really need to have a have a book. And the way I looked at having a book is publishers now is sort of like secondary. It's really all about the marketing engine behind it. And I looked at the cost of working with Forbes versus if I'm going to do something that's going to really escalate and elevate my my brand, do I hire a CMO? Do I suddenly start pouring in all of this money? And here's the big thing that I'm very aware of because I started my career in the the mid 90s. I know what bad markets look like and I really didn't want to start bringing people in. I needed to look at it with a totally different lens. And that's why I said, "Okay, this is going to be on me about my work and I really want to make it super relevant to the entrepreneurs and small business owners." So, I worked with Forbes. >> Kane, let me stop you there for a second. I think I think we should specify uh explain there's kind of a traditional publishing process. Uh in the past uh if you wanted a book published you got an agent and you did a proposal and then the agent shot the pro proposal around to traditional publishing houses. In recent years a number of companies have sprung up that will help in this process but it's it's a different economic model. Instead of the author getting paid by the publishing house with an advance, you pay these companies to help you publish the book. And it can be everything from they'll write it for you or with you uh and then market it or you know you can pick the services that you want. And it's that latter version that you chose with a company that you know it's not actually the the company that publishes uh Forbes magazine. It's a company that uh partners with Forbes and has a Forbes imprint. I believe their name is Advantage Media. >> Yeah, but I like to dumb everything down and just lump it to Forbes because that's >> Well, that's what you paid for, right? You wanted that association. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Has I don't know what the investment was, but like have you seen >> I think Kate might tell us. >> Oh, okay. >> It was a boatload of cash, but you have to understand. So, it's 200,000. But you have to understand, I am the world's laziest entrepreneur. I will I will pay people to do the stuff that I'm not good at. And >> it was $200,000. >> Yeah. But >> what did you get for that, Kate? Did they write the book for you? >> No, I I did not I I really wanted to write it, so they didn't ghostrite it, but they you know, I have a website. And here's the big thing. Listen, it's available on pre-order. It's coming out July 29th. Here are the stats already and I can guarantee it. I would never have gotten this is it's a number one bestseller in eight categories and it's showing up as uh best new release for 12 other categories. I couldn't have done that. >> You should tell us what the book is about. >> Oh yeah, it's >> I'm sorry. My my jaw is still on the floor right now in terms of the investment. So, >> we'll come back to that in a second, Sarah. But >> Kate, tell us what the book is. >> Sorry. >> Uh, so the the title is Custom Fit and it's all about it's a straight talking guide for hiring top talent for entrepreneurs and small business owners. So, part of all of the number ones, it's a little bit akin to, and this is how I described it to my mother. Yeah, this is great except for it's like buying wine for the label. you know, it could come out and it could suck or it could be really well received, but I'm hoping the latter. >> Well, my understanding is most people who choose that option, and I'm not sure if this is the case with you, but for most people, it's not so much about how many people actually read the book. It's about being able to hold up the book and say, "Yeah, I'm the expert in this particular category. I wrote the book." >> Yeah. So when when the investment, can you break down what the deliverables were on that? Like what did you get? I mean, obvious they they didn't write it, right? >> No. Like they gave you Yeah. So business a business coach uh and she and I became incredible fans. I could not have written it without the support from the team. I mean, they were really just superlative from supporting everything and they were they were good. You that when I first said I I wanted to write the book on my own, uh, they wanted a bunch of writing samples because I think they were going to try and talk me into having a ghostriter and they're like, "No, yeah, you could do this." And so they did everything else. This also includes a website, it's the PR, it's any possible thing. um that would be involved with launching your your author brand. >> Are they taking you on a book tour? >> No, they have PR, but again, Sarah, you know, it's all relative. I know what CMOs cost and all the levers that would have had been required and I'm I'm comfortable with it. >> No, I think I mean I I just I um >> it's a lot of money. >> It's a lot it's just a lot of money. So it must like there must have been like an opportunity that they gave to you. Like you you must see the other side of it, right? You must see, okay, I get this out, I get this launched, it's going to give me this. And so that's what I'm just trying to wrap my head around what the what the return is. Yeah, they've already done a good job in getting you on the top 10 lists and all of that. >> Like how how many clients do they do you need to get from this book in order for this to have been a worthwhile investment? You can't look at anything in those kind of that's like a small business owner sort of minds like you have to look at it from a visionary perspective if you have the capital to do that. Fortunately, I've been very successful with my business and I'm just looking at this as an extension because here's the real thing, the real nut of it is to put this kind of time and energy into what I do for this long. I wanted to give it back to the community. So I look at um Jeff Smart came out with the book who the problem with the book who is I saw how it actually didn't directly relate to uh true founders and I was always trying to extract the good pieces of that book and tell technical founder those those things you have to not consider. So this was my answer to it of hey I want to take this to the broader audience and I'm good with that. I don't anticipate getting any sort of money from this book but I do I can definitely assure that people who are reading it will get some nugget of information that they'll take back and find it super valuable. That's what's important to me. >> Yeah. No and it's it's a it's a grand step. Um, and like we all like as business owners make grand steps. Like I have a I have a new hire starting next week and she is a senior level person and that's a big investment. And so it's it's this kind of the same thing. I'm just not >> So you invested in that person? >> I invested in the person and I'm hoping I'm going to return on that. >> Yeah. I'm optimistic. And so you're in the same situation here. It's just as a you can't fire yours. >> No. But no. And I the investment was 100% in myself and my >> can I jump in there for a second? There's another way of thinking about this which is I believe when you made this decision you had a choice. There were a couple of options that this company would have offered you. You could have done it for a lot less money under the advantage imprint. It probably would have been basically the same team uh helping you, doing everything the same ways, but you decided to pay I mean I I think you could have paid like $10,000 or or something like that for that. >> You decided to spend the money to get the the Forbes imprint. >> Oh, you got the licensing. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And there that goes back to the the validation LinkedIn being a validation. Forbes being a validation like >> Yeah. And that's why they they already have me in I think 18 airports teed up for uh September. It's going to sit in all these different airports. >> That's awesome. I actually um when I buy business books like the airport is like one of the places that I buy them. Like they always have a good selection. >> See there you go. So when you see my book you can be like damn I know Kate Morgan. >> I will I will pay tomorrow money for this. I'll take a selfie and post it on LinkedIn and say, "I know someone." >> David, you've published uh what did you choose? What was your path? >> So, uh I've published many books over the years. Uh I just finished off my 10th. It's going to the promotion starts this summer. And we look at book publishing as a top of marketing funnel activity because we know that there is a certain segment of the population out there who when they want to understand something will go looking for a book on it. And so it's it's all about being, you know, on Amazon and being discoverable with certain keywords in the title so that somebody who is looking for a certain piece of information doesn't even need to necessarily know who I am. they'll they'll see that the book addresses their their topic. So, a book that's been out for 10 years, which I just released a second updated edition for, is called Franchise Warnings. It's one of only a couple of books out there on Amazon that talks about the downsides potentially of the franchise business model. And uh you know, for 10 years, I've sold copies of that book every week just because of the title and because of the content and because the people who read it leave good reviews. like there's a lot of uh positive reviews saying how much the book helped people. Um and we know that some of those readers come into our our marketing funnel, they start watching me on YouTube and they end up hiring us. So we we really do look at it from that small business perspective. You know, what is the effort that goes into writing the book and will it deliver customers to our business? Um and so so we just do it ourselves. Amazon has something called Kindle Direct Publishing which allows you to make a Kindle book or a um or a paperback and they have hard covers now too. And uh and uh then the audio books as well we've also done. >> And and what does it cost to do that with Amazon? >> Well, it's just my time to write the book. >> They publish it for free. >> Yeah, because there's because there's no inventory, right? It's print on demand. So when uh when I upload the the the book contents for example for franchise warnings um it exists in cyerspace and when somebody orders it there's a machine that makes one copy and then they mail it out and so so there's there's no investment you know not not like the old days maybe where someone had a garage filled with copies of their book that they had printed. So, it's it's really changed the way things work. Um, as far as like having like best seller status, um, Amazon's bestseller lists run on a 24-hour cycle, I believe. And in some specific categories, there's very little traffic. I have a book called 21 Stupid Things People Do When Trying to Buy a Business. And for the longest time, this book was in the top 10 books for mergers and acquisitions for Audible. And that's simply because very few mergers and acquisitions books are ever turned into Audible books. Um, and so it didn't take very many sales to keep myself up in that spot. When I hear that this new book is already sort of in the in the the top lists of of many different categories, it makes me wonder if part of the fee being paid is to have sort of a an an army of of people going and placing that pre-order purchase to kind of stoke those results within the Amazon system. Because if you can get yourself to the top of the best sellers lists in Amazon, then the Amazon algorithm will kick in and start showing the book to other people. And so there's there's a lot of people in the publishing world who have, you know, different strategies they talk about about kind of gaming the the algorithm, gaming the system of Amazon to try to get things into the top echelon of uh of recognition. Well, and that's that's in part, right, is the Net Galley and that's the there's like a community of 650,000 reviewers. They're the ones that are helping to generate reviews and buzz and all of that. And so that's where a lot of um the traction I'm getting. And now again, I don't have to do anything. And Forbes is going to run a NetGalley spotlight. Uh, actually they're running it this week. >> Do any of you think about the balance between being informative and being promotional? Uh, I guess what I'm really asking is, do you ever worry about giving away too much? >> Not for me. >> So, my feeling about that is that you can give away absolutely everything. Most people won't do it though, right? So, what I do for a living is not brain surgery. I didn't go to medical school, right? But it's a lot of work. And so a lot of PR agencies won't give their clients the media lists like um with all their contact information of members of the media or influencers and that because they're afraid what's going to prevent the client from just taking those lists and doing it doing it themselves. Um I've been in business for nearly, you know, 8 years and I have never had a client take those lists and go do it themselves because they don't have the time. They don't have the bandwidth. They're hiring you because you can do it better than they can. They you have res resources set up. You have systems set up. So, I think you can give away everything, but the clients that are going to hire you are the high ones that see the value in having you do it um and not them do it. In my space, when we start talking about talent acquisition and HR, particularly now, we're seeing so many companies and founders that are looking at it as discretionary spend and they want to dial it down. And my book is really more about it's kind of a cautionary tale. Do it right, you could have a unicorn. Do it wrong, you're going to have so many headaches. And let me tell you from my own experience, and if you take this book and you feel comfortable and confident moving forward, God bless you. If you run into a challenge, keep us posted. We're here. We got you. >> I'm definitely in the abundance mindset camp as well. Um, and I want to work with people that have an abundance mindset. And so I I don't mind sharing all kinds of information. and and the people who step forward and want to work with me are going to be the people who value the fact that on top of the knowledge maybe that they've learned from consuming my content that the experience and and everything else that is part of me and my team is is going to add even more value to the the project that we work on with clients. >> What do you wish you'd known when you first started sharing content? >> I think it's focus. I think the as uh what David was saying is that if the more niche you can be, the more valuable that's going to be, right? Anybody can talk generally about HR or, you know, acquisition or or PR, but if you have a specific area of knowledge, I think that that's going to be the most valuable for any potential audience. See, and I still have a very different approach when I think about like our news content for instance. We put out content that is talking more about people and just general personal stuff and then we'll we'll kind of go back and forth with various things like we we like we just launched one today that um one of my team members, she's a beautiful writer. She was writing about life isn't about perfectionism. And it's just interesting that we get so many different folks that will respond back and again we kind of go back and forth where the previous one was why recruiters stop calling and what it really means. So then it keeps people dialed in for when they need us from a business perspective and then when they want it for something more personal. And I'm always just really touched when we have people responding to our newsletter just saying, "Wow, this hit this hit right at the right time." And it isn't so dialed in, so specific. Because I can tell you what, when we do any sort of uh competitive analysis, that's where they're all sticking to and we're we're outperforming them every time. I think we've we've hit on a a pretty clear uh difference of opinion in terms of what your goal should be in in sharing content. And I think um it it's it's intriguing to me to hear them both versions articulated. you know, the the version that says you really have to think about who's reading this, who's seeing it, and whether it's going to move the needle for your business versus creating an authentic picture of who you are and connecting with people and yes, seeing value in the metrics that the social media uh platforms um want you to care about, >> you know, and Lauren, if I was paying somebody to market my brand. Yeah, I'd be all over the data and that's why working with Forbes and the Authority and all that is good for me. >> But you are paying someone. You're paying yourself. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. But then I also do standup comedy. So, you know, I don't get paid for that. So, >> Well, that probably doesn't drive the drive business either, I'm guessing. >> No. No. It's just Yeah. >> Although it's a great skill. David, you wanted to say something. >> Yeah, I I think the one thing you had asked what what do you wish you had known earlier? I think that I had I I wish I had known 10 years ago that there's almost as much value in using your online marketing to drive away the wrong prospects as there is in attracting the right ones. Mhm. >> Um, you know, we when when I create content, I've got a certain avatar, a certain ideal customer in mind, and I'm talking to that person. And, um, a lot of what we see online about developing social media is advice for entertainers that want as big an audience as possible. And I think what entrepreneurs need to keep in mind when they're running a business is that we are using these social media platforms. We're bending them to our purpose, which is to market and find customers. And the social media platforms though their purpose is very different. It's about amassing as many eyeballs as possible. You know, do they really care about whether the creators achieve their own ends? Like I don't know. The platforms want attention. That's and that's what they resell to advertisers and and all the ways that they make money. >> But I'm I'm curious, David. It seems to me the need to drive away the the wrong audience would would be more of a concern say for Sarah who wants a particular type of of client whereas for you you have such a a clear niche. You you help people buy and sell businesses. Who is it that you're trying to drive away that that would respond to content about that topic? It's people who have fumbled themselves into the space through being attracted by some kind of get-richqu content. You know, there's there's creators out there that are creating content about how you can buy a business using none of your own money, blah blah blah, just buy my course. >> And some of those people fall into my audience. And then they'll start making demands of of me and my time and my employees with um you know projects that are just untenable, unreasonable, etc. And and I I would rather not have to deal with them honestly. >> Understood. >> Sarah, do you think about that at all in your content? I mean, you're you're looking for a particular type of business. Do you do things to make sure you get that right type of business? No, not purposely. Um, but I I'll talk to anybody. That's the That's probably just me as an individual. >> There you go. >> I'll talk to anybody. >> There's the difference. >> And um if if I can't provide the service that they need, I love being that connector where I can refer them to another sole practitioner or a different kind of agency. But I see the value in for me talking to anybody at any any level or any space in their business. Um, yeah, and I do certainly get things that are not our bread and butter and and not really the capabilities that my team is built for, but uh I love making those connections and referring people because my feeling is you never know like they may end up going working for a company that does need the services I provide. And so I've made that connection and they appreciate the referral and maybe they'll remember me. >> So Sarah, having had this conversation, would you spend $200,000 to publish a book? >> Well, I mean, I have in in an equivalent like I'm I hiring a a VP like a book is not my goal. I don't think that I have the discipline to write a book. You have to be a more of a linear thinker. um in in order to do that and that's not how my brain works. >> Well, these companies will help you with that if you want and need it. >> I'm also intrigued about the whole business coach thing because um I lot they're very trendy to have a business coach and it's not something I'm necessarily personally interested. I'm just interested in like what they do for people. But yeah, I'm I'm making investments else. I don't think you want to read a book I write because it could be all over the place. Well, that is the benefit of the business coach. They they kind of wrangle you in. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, that's a very good topic for a podcast another day. My thanks to David Barnett, Kate Morgan, and Sarah Seagull. One thing before you go, everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd, or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum, where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. You can sign up for both by subscribing to the morning report. If you have any questions, you can email me at lauren21hats.com. And if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report, please tell a friend, tell an enemy, tell every business owner you know. Your word of mouth owner to owner will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us. Thank you. It means a lot. This episode was produced by another entrepreneur, Jess Stubberon, founder of Blank Word Productions. Thanks for listening, everyone. [Music]