I Can Help with AI. Do Owners Want Help?

Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. [music] I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. Alan Pence is convinced a wave of disruption is about to crash into small [music] businesses and he's doing everything he can to warn owners before it hits. He's writing, teaching, consulting, [music] waving the red flag. He's just not sure anyone is ready to listen. I don't know if you've seen Don't Look Up, he says, but it's kind of like that. The asteroid is coming and everyone's still walking around like it's normal. In our latest 21 Hacks brainstorm, Allan puts his own future on the table. He asks a panel of owners to help him answer a hard question. Do business owners actually want help adopting AI? And if they do, what kind of help will they pay for? Is there a real scalable business here or just a lot of interest and polite nodding? And there's one more twist. Allan already owns a successful consulting firm, [music] so he also has to decide whether this opportunity is worth jumping back into the startup grind to build another service-heavy business from scratch. The brainstorm is brought to you by Newbridge Studios, which helps companies, creators, and causes connect their stories to the bottom line. Joining me this week on the podcast are [music] our brainstorm facilitator Chris Hudchinson of Trebushe Group, plus Kelly Allen of Kelly Allen Associates, Shan Campbell of Cascade Insights, Amy Collins of the Olaya Group, Casey Helmick of Newbridge Studios, [music] Sandy Capel of Tracaner Leadership, Megan Perona of AR Manufacturing, [music] Lisa Peterson of Wealth Clinic, Liz Picarasi of City Bin, and Tabitha Mason of Zingermanman's. The episode is titled, "I can help with AI. Do owners want help?" All right, let's get started. Welcome to another 21 Hats brainstorm, uh, led by our master facilitator, Chris Hutchinson. As most of you probably know, our goal here is to have some fun, to learn a little, but most importantly, to try to help an entrepreneur who's confronting a challenge. That's Alan Pence. Chris, before I introduce Allan, why don't you tell us how this works? >> Thanks, Lauren. I'm really excited to be here with Alan and you and this fine crew of folks that's going to help us do some good thinking together. Essentially, what we're going to do is in just in a moment, you're going to ask some really good investigative reporter type questions to sort of flesh out the the highle situation that Allen is facing that he's bringing forward. And then we're going to enable the group to ask similar questions. I'll give a little brief on the best kind of questions and then Allan will look at those and say, "Here's what I really want advice on." And then we're going to switch to the part where people love to give a piece of advice or a caution step or maybe a success tip. We'll vote for the best essentially and go through them that way that we'll have them explain one at a time. So Allan hopefully can walk away at the end with a clear picture of some options. Maybe none of these work, but he might pick a couple to say, "I'm going to I'm going to go do those things." Sounds good. So today's guest of honor is Alan Pence. Allan is based in Washington DC where he built a quite successful consulting business that helps other businesses obtain contracts from the federal government. Like a lot of entrepreneurs, Allan got is it fair to say Allan a little bored with the day-to-day managing of a successful business, an experience most of us would like to have. >> Yeah. >> And you uh you kind of kicked yourself upstairs and started looking for other things to do. um mostly trying to help other business owners better run their businesses which led you to taking a very deep dive into artificial intelligence. I don't know anyone who's created and written more about promising AI use cases than you uh especially use cases for for business owners. And that brings us to uh the challenge we're here to discuss today. Allan, I think you feel quite confident that you can help business owners harness the power of AI and perhaps survive the disruption that's coming, but you have some doubts in your mind about whether owners actually want that help. Uh will they pay for it? And is there a real scalable business to be built to uh to offer it? Is that a fair uh characterization? >> Yeah. And I would say uh there's also a bit of ambivalence on my part about starting another company or I've started it but trying to scale another company. I would say that's the other factor. >> Got it. So I'm going to start off by asking you a few questions just to try to uh set the scene and then we're going to open it up. You know, let me start with this. It sometimes seems like AI is the only thing that anyone's talking about. Given that that's the case, what do you think is keeping owners from uh from going all in and really trying to figure it out? >> I think there's that's, you know, it's a multiffactors probably. I would say there's been a period of time where the tools weren't really ready for prime time. They're ready for like as some people said, they're great for single player type applications where you're doing things for yourself and not so great for multiplayer where you're trying to put it out to your company. I also think the actual ability to create software, agents, those sorts of things was doable but difficult until about I November when the latest cloud model came out um 4.5 Opus and that really I mean my ability to now create software that works the first time or agents that work the first time uh just probably three or four times at that just in a day or two when they release that, you know. So that's that's one set of issues. And then I think the second set of issues is just diving in and doing it and having the time to do it. So even owners I know I also help some guys who are rolling up metal fabrication facilities. I'm an investor in that business up in Boston and one of the owners is really good with the tech. he he gets it, but he's kind of similar background to me. Um, but he just doesn't have the time to go deep on it. So, I've learned multiple things about that over even the last few months actually running trainings for owners. I did one back in the fall and I'm about to kick off one tomorrow actually. Um, and that taught me a lot about how to shape a potential business in this space from, and I don't know if we [clears throat] want to go into that now, but it's really I I've come to the conclusion that owners need some amount of training, but the reality is they don't have the time and the patience. So, they're going to [clears throat] have to train people on staff or hire people that can do the AI work. That's sort of what shift in thinking I've had. Let me ask you about that because from what I've read, you consider this a potential uh extinction level event for a lot of business owners. How could they not have time to deal with that? >> Well, that's a good point. Uh I don't know if we've all seen Don't Look Up, but it's kind of similar to that movie, [laughter] right? It's like the asteroid's coming, but you still walk around dayto-day like it's normal. Um yeah, no, I do think it's going to be extinction level for a lot of people. I mean, I'm writing a blog, I think, for next week or the week after. I see in the near future an ability for someone when you sign up for marketing, they send in a series of agents that attach to your website, your socials, other, you know, dashboards, you have your HubSpot or whatever, and basically download everything about you, build the strategy, and implement it right there. and you might have a conversation with somebody a couple times, but it's not going to be like a typical marketing engagement anymore. And I just don't see most owners being able to transition from the current delivery model to that. So, it's probably going to be some 25-year-old with a bunch of agents that comes in and I think it wipes out the entire business model for most marketing agencies. So yeah, I think if I could get owners to spend 40 hours a week talking to cloud code like I do, I think it would really help them. >> Is that what you think it would take? 40 hours. >> I I don't think that's what you need to learn um AI. I think that's the way you're going to work in the future talking to Cloud Code all day or some version of that. It could be a different model in the future and it could have a slightly different interface, but you're basically going to be talking to agents all day long, which is what I do. >> So, obviously, you've talked to a lot of business owners about this um you know, in consulting or informally. Have you done any actual market research? >> Yeah, I mean, well, I've been training people, so that's you know, a form of market research. Actually, this podcast is a form of market research. >> Sure. >> Um, and I think again there's a time factor here, right? So back when when I did my first AI training, the tools were not ready yet for full deployment inside an organization. But again, two things I would note. One, I mentioned that Opus 4.5 model really was a change. The second thing is is the development with Microsoft Foundry, which is their AI agent uh runtime uh place, and Google Vert.Ex. They've now developed places where you can build and run agents inside your existing setup. So you get all your like ID enter ID for Microsoft. You get all the security that comes with those environments and all the provisioning of you know like I know who Allen is. He's logged in as this and now he can use these agents. That was a significant issue I think using outside third party agent systems. And I think that's now you know we're very close if not there with that environment enabling full agent deployment like I wrote few weeks ago I built a completely agentic CRM for my government consulting firm in like a couple of days and everyone's going to be able to do that going forward. Um and that's all within the the Microsoft foundry system that helps enable that. I happen to know you've also helped one of the regulars on my podcast to set up the kind of agentic system to check out potential leads that you're talking about. That's Jackie Russo who has a marketing agency. If you could do it for her, it seems like something that you could find a lot of Jackie. What do you need? What's the critical mass you need to turn this into a business? >> So, there's two things there. one is I think the Jackie example is a great example for some of the ways that this market's going to shape that have changed my thinking. Um so with Jackie like we set that up, we got it working and then she had a problem with it and um so she had to come back to us. We're help I think we've helped her fix that. But um you know the reality is that's one thing right there was like a flaw in it and custom software has always had that but the reality is I I think I wrote something maybe on LinkedIn where we could make Jackie's system 10 times more productive but we have to work with it and we would have to work with it on an ongoing basis and that's what really struck me is the whole idea that I'm going to build you a solution give it to you and it's going to operate that with some O andM or something. That model doesn't work with agents. You got to see what they do. You've got to work with them every day. You got to see their output and then tune them and upgrade them as you go. When you say that model doesn't work with agents, are you talking about the business model for you as the person helping business owners create them or the model doesn't work for the business owners who would be actually using them? >> For the business owners that would be using them? I mean, I can I can charge you for something that's good, but it's not going to get you to what I'm talking about where you're continually working with agents as sort of co-workers and you're upgrading and compounding your advantages over time. That's what the real promise is. And that requires, I think, in the end, internal people or at least you have somebody designated that you might be renting from an agency or something like that. But they've got to be there all the time working with you. you can't just bring in a consultant and then have them walk out the door. I think that model is not going to work for this world. Um, so that's one thing. The second thing is like immediately when I got into that, this is my ambivalence part. We did that for Jackie just cuz she was part of our AI course. So we were kind of doing it on the side for for free. And then, you know, she wants to do more stuff with it, which is great. This is what she she'd want to do. And I and as soon as that starts, I'm like, "Oh man, I don't want to do this." I just got out [laughter] of 18 years of customizing work for clients. I'm like, why am I getting back into I'm back in delivery. Like, what what what happened here? So, I think I very quickly was like, oh my god, I don't want to do this. So, that's part of and that's not Jackie's fault. She was just being normal, but that that's more me. >> Understood. Chris, do you have any questions before we open it up? I have one question on what is the kind of most important exploration you want to have this group sort of help you with focus on around questions exploring for the I'm assuming for the business rather than the technology. >> Yeah, I think I want two things. So for me there's a little bit of market research here, right? And just to clarify what I'm thinking about doing going forward, the business I would probably try to start is not a custom consulting firm to build you AI agents. It would be a training firm and a community most likely around trying to help because this is what I think you can do now is like a regular business analyst, someone who can think through a problem, you know, can manage a project, that kind of person. we can train that person now with cloud code and the agent uh places for then Microsoft and Google to basically become your person to do this on a regular basis and help your team become AI native and um my goal is that we would have the training for owners to help them build their strategy get to know it a little bit right but I'm not looking at the owner as an impleer on your staff or we train global talent that you might hire or rent, right? And then we create a community around that because the other factor in this is every two weeks something new comes out. So like Claude co-work came out last week. What is that? How do we do that? You know, so you those people need access to ongoing um education. So we would create a community around it. So the idea so so the first question is really is that a model that owners would consider? Are they willing to pay for that? Is it sound like, oh, that's nice to have, but I don't really care. Um, so that's one. And then the second thing I just for me personally is like I'm not sure I want to run I think that company is really necessary and I have all the pieces in place for it. I just don't know if I want to run it. I'm sort of like I got another I got two other businesses. Why am I doing So that's sort of the question I ask myself and every every couple of weeks I'm like oh my god I've got to do this because it's so important. And then I'm like why do I want to do this? >> Perfect. So, so let me do the little teeny instruction. I think the main thing is here we're trying to understand the situation. So at the end of 10 15 minutes we'll have a very clear picture of what Allen has explored in his thinking and also we understand for him to be able to say this is what I really want some advice around even though he's already centered us a little bit. So I just want to give that caution or or support. So, uh, Casey, uh, go ahead and unmute and give us your question to help explore Ellen's thinking. >> My question is, have you struggled kind of giving people handlebars to this marketplace? Because AI essentially the promise is it could kind of do anything and everything. I mean, it's almost like the invention of the internet here that we're playing with. Do you find yourself struggling giving people that first use case, that first step, that first um, way to optimize and use AI? it it's just such a big potential solution and I think that's part of my overwhelm as a business owner is I don't know where to start because it could kind of be anything and everything. So is that something you're facing? >> Yeah, I mean on that specific struggle again to me that's where I came back to the business model because this is a wholesale change in how you do business. So it isn't like it it's not very immunable to a timebound project right now as far as like hey can I find you know I think I had this discussion with somebody on the AI part of 21 hats community on Slack who said like all right what should I do and I'm like well what's your most important process that costs you know that's most important to you and costs the most money blah blah blah that's what we attack I found that part not to be that hard it's just you got to figure out what's important to the But I do agree, the open-ended nature of it is sort of like I don't know if you've ever gotten involved in custom development. You start building something, you're like, "Oh, can it do this? Can it do that? Can it do this?" And it just goes on and on and on, which is what I think it should do. It's just not very well set up for a consulting firm or unless you want to pay through the nose forever. >> So Sandra raised their hand. So Sandra, could you uh unmute and give your question to explore our thinking? >> Hi, I'm Sandy Capella. I've just recently started my own um tracer leadership firm focused on change management and >> congrats. >> Thank you. Because of the open-ended nature, I was wondering if there's an industry or a set of industries that lend itself more easily to AI and building the use cases to start gaining momentum or if the industry doesn't matter. I would say that it's knowledge work. Think about anything that uses words and symbols, you know. So I it's it's big, right? People use Excel. If you're using Excel, Word or something like that in your work, the AI will disrupt it. By the way, I haven't opened a [clears throat] Word document in six months or an Excel sheet. >> Excellent. Excellent question. Excellent answer. What's the next question that we have? >> I think Megan had her hand up. >> Oh, okay. Uh, we'll do Megan and then we'll do Lisa. Megan, go ahead. >> Oh, uh, I did not have my hand up. Uh, you can, [laughter] uh, >> come up with a question, Megan. Come on, put it in the chat. >> I was wondering. So, on the the not the AI part, but I guess the part of like, do you actually want to start a business? Like, I guess does this the AI training community seem more exciting than your existing businesses? Like is there a do you find a personal draw to this one over what you currently have going? >> Yeah, I mean 100% I'm very drawn to AI. Obviously I've been red pill for quite a while and like my answer I'm like walking around my answer to everything is AI. So, um, yes, I'm super drawn to the whole idea about like in my head over my vacation, I had this realization that all knowledge work since the beginning of not, you know, when Peter Ducker started talking about that in the ' 50s is just a bunch of people writing symbols in files, right? Their words or numbers and as soon as they could, knowledge workers started using computers and this is like the next extension of that. And it will transform the way knowledge work is done. Right? And I so I I said that now the distinction between knowledge work and coding has now gone away. We are all becoming coders. And so we do need to know some stuff about code to do this. Like we need to know what Python is and what it does. We don't need to write it. So that's the training part, right? But the reality is it's getting easier and easier every day. So I would say that part of it that's that idea and that insight that gives me a lot of energy and passion. The thought of building the business and hiring people and doing it, that's where I get like cuz like the reality is I love my other businesses but I don't run them, right? I love being a part of them. And and one of the reasons actually I left my biggest business was just like HR. Like once we got over a hundred people, I was like it's all HR and I was like I don't want to do this any I'm not into that. I want to go play with AI, you know, and make up fun stuff. So, hope hopefully that answers it. >> Yeah, good to know where the energy is coming from. You showed just the little difference between the two things. Uh Lisa, >> um I have a question about what happens to your business model when AI gets significantly better like over the next 18 months. And one thing I just also want to add in, so I coach b small businesses um in their business, but mostly around how they can build wealth through their business. And I met with one of my clients this morning and a year ago I was out on site and she runs like a hair salon and um facial and tea shop and no technology experience like whatsoever. She does everything on paper. And today she said, "Lisa, when you showed me, you know, a year ago how to use like code and now I use it for everything." And I was like, "What?" And she started telling me just like in all the ways that she's using it. And I guess she just made me think about the fact that we don't know what people's adoption like. Sometimes all it takes is just seeing some one little thing and then people can become experts just because they're so excited about what the potential is. But what happens to your business model when AI gets significantly better? >> The models are going to get better and better, but people still need help figuring out how to and even just talking to I mean getting talking to the model will get better and better, of course, but it's never going to get to well, I'm not going to say never. It will not in the near term get to the place where you don't need to think through things yourself as you're working with the model. And I think that's where our training and community would come in. >> Okay, cool. Uh, do we have anybody else raising their hand for a question? We're almost coming to that transition point where we you'll have to pick like what do you really want advice on with all this? >> I'll ask a question. Allan, have you have you thought through do do you know what kind of proof you need, what you need to hear that would convince you that this is something you want to continue to explore? >> Yeah, that's a great question, Lauren. That kind of stumps me a bit. What would I need to hear? I would know it. I would know it when I heard it, right? Um >> like pornography, >> right? Well, I didn't say that, but [laughter] I think I need to hear the owners need to figure this out, right? So, like I feel like I hear people talk about AI and the importance of it. And I'm like, look, I'm 6 12 months in the future on this stuff from other people. I realize that. And more I talk to people, the more I realize it. And I feel like people are confused by it. They're interested in it. They want to use it, but they don't have a real need to like figure it out now and get this in my business. That urgency I haven't felt enough. And that's one of the reasons like I'm around the business. I'm like, it's going to take a while to like get people to get it, right? that like, oh, this isn't just like something I buy and put on a shelf. No, this is like a new way of working like I have to completely transform what I do. >> Okay, we have Amy. Go ahead and introduce yourself and your question, please. >> I'm Amy Collins from the OA group. My question for you, Alan, is do you prefer training large groups of people at once, [clears throat] leading large training sessions for a lot of people, or do you prefer working one-on-one with people? >> Large sessions are much more profitable. >> Okay, >> nice. I I know I'm being a little sarcastic, but I I do think um I do like working one-on-one with people on stuff because you can really get to see what's going on with them. So, I think I prefer that personally, but it's just, you know, it's like very hard to do that. I don't want to do that all day long, right? So, it's hard to do that. >> So, you kind of said yes on the the question. >> Yeah. It's more interesting to help someone actually transform their business. The other part of this is people will come to me and be like,"Wh are you bothering training people? Why don't you just figure out the business that already has some stuff [snorts] that's valuable to AI, particularly like proprietary data, and just blow it up and take over the space?" Like, why don't you do that? And I've thought about it, and again, I get back to it's very intriguing. I would actually like to partner with operators who are into that, but I don't want to run a big business. And for me, the passion is really around learning what the tools can do for people, not necessarily running down the nth degree of, you know, how it works in pet shops, right? >> Okay. So, it seems like Do you have any other questions, Lauren? >> I got one last question. >> Okay, go for it. >> Have you asked Claude what you should do? >> Yes, multiple times. I've had agent debates. I've had uh all sorts of things. And look, I mean, Claude goes to this is one thing to learn about AMP. It goes to solutions too quickly. And so I've had to push it quite a bit and go back and forth. And really like the answer is plug will tell me that it's a good business model and how to make the business model better. Um, but it can't really tell me whether I want to do it or not. >> It tries, but it's not successful at that. >> And that's the more important question than whether you can make the business model work. >> Probably. Yeah, I'm pretty convinced I could make the business model work even if it's not correct right now. >> Right. So, that's something we don't have to offer advice on if that's where Alan feels. So, Alan, are you able to see the uh the questions and the answers that we typed in? I'm wondering what area you would really like us to focus on to help you get your answer that you're going to need. >> I think the personal draw, the excitement, you know, that whole thing about the knowledge work and everyone becoming coders, I think that's what gets me going. So I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? It's like I can write you a blog about it, newsletters about it from and at certain point it's just like heranging people. And so there's something really important going on here. And I need to figure out some way of sharing it and getting people to do it, but I just don't know how to do it in a way that's most effective for me and for the people who would receive it. >> I think that was a perfect question right there. What would be the most effective ways that Allan could share and connect with this passion for himself and for the people that are being affected by this, i.e. some of us in the room? So, I'm going to go ahead and move you over. At this point, Chris moves everyone in the brainstorm onto a platform where they can enter whatever suggestions they have for Allen, a caution, a next step, a success tip. Once those thoughts are entered, everyone has the opportunity to like [music] the ones they favor. The suggestions that get the most likes rise to the top of the list. When everyone is ready, Chris asks the authors of the most liked recommendations to explain their thinking to Allen. Meanwhile, while they're working, Alan, Chris, and I continue to talk quietly. I have a feeling, Allan, that much like Claude, we probably can't help you decide what you want to do, what's right, what what your needs are and desires are, but I think we can address the issue of what business owners are are are thinking and how likely they are to respond to you, whatever it is you offer. >> Yeah. I mean, the other thing I would challenge people is like, you know, AI is out there. You know, it's a big deal. I mean, I don't know how many of you bought anything, done anything, signed up for a class, course, whatever. Why not? Like, what are you just like, "Oh, it's BS. I don't have time." I would guess that's not it. As one of at least two people here who have signed up for a class that begins tomorrow, I I think it's the intimidation factor. I think it's trying to figure out where you begin and what's worthwhile and what's spinning your wheels. And you know, it's so much easier to go deal with the problems you already have that you know how to solve than to invest time and energy in figuring out how to address this big new scary thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very I mean and then the thing that comes out for me also is like finding other people to partner with on this cuz I think there's a part of me that's like I'm never going to grind for the 3 to 5 years that is necessary to turn this into like a real thing. So like are there other operators I should be partnering with to make that happen >> or can you create an agent that will do it? >> That's right. Yeah, exactly. Well, I do have one that's that I'm working on right now for training. Um, but I do think like what I've learned too is people just can't stay focused on something that doesn't have like an appointment like that. >> We're getting a lot of entries here. >> This is really there there's some fantastic ideas I'm excited to see. So, if you'd like to start going ahead and and voting for the ones you basically give it a thumbs up. Let's just give a a moment of silence here uh for folks to just go ahead and and vote. One of the challenges is that uh I think there could be the pain of lost potential is I think could be more powerful than the the pain of you don't want to miss out. I can't tell you what it is, but if you if you don't get on board, you're going to lose. That to me is very um disempowering and not helpful that I've heard from other folks, not from you around AI. It's like, well, you just you need you got to do it and if you don't, you're stupid. >> And I'm like I don't know. Although I do think that the reality I mean I have to be honest with people like this is coming and like it's going to it's going to swamp people and um I don't think I can not tell people that at some point but I got to people don't people don't like fear but there's some reason to be afraid. Well, let's go ahead and see who was that person that said, uh, I'm turned off, you know, who asked said, "How can you motivate people based on help?" Unmute and let us hear your, uh, thoughts there. What would you provide to Alan? >> Um, that was me. This is Amy Collins from the AA group. So, I feel I've kind of gotten your answer already, but anytime I hear someone say, "You've got to do this or else." And they're charging me money, you know, I'm like, "Okay." So, to me, that would that would push me away from taking a course or working with you. And I think, you know, the more compelling thing is how can this earn us more revenue? How can we do more with what we've got? How can we use it to help our employees? Like make this a better place to work for them, to achieve more for our clients, etc. I I guess that's all I have to say. >> Can I ask a followup to that? >> Yeah. >> So, uh, totally get that. I appreciate the thought, but what if it was like, all right, you're going to have to fire half your people. That's the reality. I'm not saying it is, but I'm just saying like sometimes things >> are the way they are, right? And they're not correct. >> That might be the case, but I think >> Amy, why don't you tell Allan exactly what your business does so he has a sense of the threat level? >> Yeah, sure. >> I don't want to. [laughter] >> No, I won't I won't use any fear. >> [laughter] >> uh we underwrite small business loans for community development financial institutions. So a lot of what we do is data entry and we're already using AI in some ways and we're already working on how we use it more. Um, and I think if you tell me, you know, you're going to have to lay off half your people, it in some sense that's terrible. But in the other sense, like I have great people and a business that can support them. And so I would look for a way to get them doing something else, like make them more efficient. Instead of laying off half, why don't we double our output? >> There you go. Yeah. I mean that would be my answer but I think unfortunat where where you are clearly a lot of the underwriting is going to get done by AI algorithms but you're in a regulated sector. So like that's going to happen a lot later than it is anywhere else. And two I I sort of agree with you and sort of don't agree with you about the people. So on one hand, I had an a LinkedIn exchange with somebody who's like, "So I'm either going to get fired for not using AI or I'm going to get laid off because I automated my job." That was sort of the and I think it's a very common attitude amongst people and I'm not having any of that. I think it's I think that's a ridiculous way to think about the world. And so my take is yes, if you go use a automation is a terrible term I think because what we're talking about here really is an automation. I mean there are parts of it that get automated but I'm talking about working with AI all day long as a co-worker. So that's not automation. That's like enhancement. And so the people who can do that, they become 10 times more productive. Well, I don't fire employees that are 10 times more productive. I worry about them getting hired away from me, right? But there are employees who are like, I don't really want to learn it. I'm not going to and and it's possible that certain people can't work with it for various reasons. I don't know that. I do think those people are going to become redundant. So that that's how I see it playing out. Not that I don't think we'll have less employment, but I do think there going to be a lot of shifts in companies where we've had people for a long time and they're not able to make the transition. And I just don't see them getting retrained. And I it's like running a textile mill in 1988. I don't know what you're going to do, right? You're going to go down with the ship if you don't correct that. Right? So that's that's sort of like how I like to think about it, but it isn't like a automation. I think people are just thinking about it incorrectly that way, but it might mean different people. I think the other piece of the fear conversation, you know, motivating based on fear to me is like we've always faced challenges as a society and we always find a way through them and internet was incredibly disruptive. Technology will continue to be disruptive. How is this different? >> Well, I think the printing press and the internet slash social AI are very similar. They're disruptive technologies. that I'm not predicting the 30 years war or anything, but I do think that it's there's going to be parts of it that are not fun. And I think we have to be honest about that. And there are amazing things that we're able to do as a result. Like we will cure most kinds of cancer. We will find new materials that will make basic abundance for everyone available. That will happen. But at the same time, we will have massive disruption in society. And so, you know, I go I go back and forth with both. And I think I take the message right about fearbased and I appreciate that message. And then I think like, well, I got to be honest with people here. I'm like, this is pretty big disruption. And so, we should be somewhat afraid. >> Yeah. So, we got massive disruption, lots of potential. What does Allen do tomorrow? Right. So let me go back to uh the next question was the idea of training one employee who shared that and just unmute and then talk to us just briefly about it so Alan can get your advice there. >> This is Megan Perona from AR manufacturing. So I was the one who wrote that down. So we're a small business. We have about 40 employees uh and we're a manufacturer. So I think we have about six office employees and then the rest are production. Um, and so being smaller as far as training goes, we don't always have the budget or the manpower to actually train all 40 people on how to do something. But we can uh normally train, you know, one, two, maybe three people on how to do something and then they can be responsible for that. So for a for a company like us and I think I also mentioned down below we use a lot of incumbent uh worker grant uh funds for doing training so that way we can actually afford getting really specialized training to what we're doing. So I could totally see us hiring like a company like you're talking about creating um to train you know one person who then you can go to them and say like hey I need a thing that does this. Can you make that with that AI thing? Yeah, that's great. I appreciate that. Yeah, and that would be the idea, I think. How do you make it affordable for people >> to to get the expertise? Because I do worry like smaller companies like yours is just going to struggle. Um, and if the owner isn't isn't able to learn it to that level, you're going to have new entrance. And I think manufacturing is a little different. Obviously, you have machinery, things like that, but and that'll happen later. But you'll have new entrance that are the owner who know how to do that and they won't need to train a bunch of people and hire a bunch of people to do it and they'll out compete. That's sort of what I'm afraid of right now and why I think it's so urgent. So I think yeah if we can train one person on the staff and they can spread it and help and once I the other the other aspect here is there is a mindset shift that needs to happen and if they can spread that mindset shift of we do work with agents we don't do work anymore that's going to be the key you work with agents to do work you don't do work that's what the transition is going to be >> yeah that's great thanks okay we have one other question here that three likes and this is about the direct marketing education firm. So, uh, who said that and open it up and let's hear more. >> Hi, it's Lisa Peterson. I've just seen how difficult it is to get people to attend workshops and education training. I'm not alone. It's kind of just known um out there that it's become a lot more expensive and a lot more time consuming. I just launched a workshop and keep in mind I've been in my business for 12 years. People come to me for this information and it took like six weeks of promoting to over 10,000 people to get 55 people signed up in a workshop. That's very low cost. >> Yeah. And and how have you have you seen people starting to build better distribution and ways they've done it? you know, in the work that I do, it's like it's relationship oriented. So, it's more, you know, people need they want to know who they're going, who's the teacher and what that is going to entail. So, it's different than what you'd be doing here. I think I also put another note down below. I'm starting a new tech company and I realized the other day that I have to be very careful not to go invest money in something that could be developed with developers that could be developed with AI because I could be wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars. Fear is very dangerous right now. People are already so stressed. Like I filled this workshop because it's a totally different approach than what I've used in the past. You used to use fear, but money on the other hand, saving money or being able to make more money because you're using AI is like super powerful. >> And you mentioned like who do I team up with? And I do agree that that's a great strategy, but over the years, I will say many times when I've tried to team up with other people or organizations, they fall through. So, at the end of the day, I still am the one who's finding the people to join my workshops through the relationships and through my writing and through my speaking and all of that. >> Yeah. >> So, it's hard to work with partners. >> That's helpful. Yeah. I I found that as well. Yes. I used to have a partner in my business, too. that didn't last. So, uh I get that difficult partnerships and I really appreciate um your thoughts on that. I think you're right on and I would say be very cautious about developing software product. Now, the biggest thing that I've taken away, I had developers working on some stuff too. The developers are some of the most resistant people. I met two of them over my break. very young guys, super smart CS majors from good schools, both running startups. And I'm like, "Hey, have you like used Microsoft Foundry or Google Vertex with Cloud Code?" And they're like, I hadn't even heard of Google Vert.ex or Microsoft Foundry. And then they're like, "Oh, yeah, I use Cloud Code a couple of times." It's like, well, now Anthropic, who makes Cloud, 95 to 100% of all their code is built with cloud code. And that's happening more and more and more where coders aren't even coding anymore. And so if you go out and hire these guys, they're not going to tell you the latest stuff. They don't first of all, they probably don't even know it. Second of all, you know, threatens their complete business model. So be very cautious. And I'm happy if you if you want followup offline, happy to talk to you about that. >> Uh, thanks so much. >> So let me check with Lauren to see. Lauren, we've got four questions that have one vote. I was thinking maybe Alan could pick one, but perhaps you want to wrap it up now. No, let's let's keep going. Liz Picarazzi has a question. Uh she came in a little bit late because of a Zoom problem, but Liz uh is really interested in this stuff and I'm eager to hear her question. So, if you're trying to look at what the business model is and you I'm imag imagining you want something that could be recurring revenue, you know, such as like a work better now or a blay or any of these, would you consider having a version of one of those that has strong AI component in the talent? Because right now I know that I'm going to go out to some of these companies and I'm going to try to get a new VA and I'm going to tell them I really want them to be strong in AI. I don't know what I'm going to get back, but I do know that if there was an agency that prominently said, "This is a great area of expertise for us." It would make my decision much easier and faster to go with a company that essentially, you know, had a an AI version of a VA. That business model is very well known. I've had VAS that I pay subscriptions on for years now, but trying to find one that has that as an absolute necessity in the job description, I would think that that could be something that there would be a huge market size um for you with and have you thought about that? >> Yeah, that's awesome, Liz. Thanks for that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's basically like reproducing Pedro, right? Pedro is a guy who works for me out of Peru. He's fantastic. And um yeah, I think I actually think that might be the model to some extent um at least for you know smaller companies and then maybe it's you know when you're 50 100 200 person company and maybe it's more like hey I need to train people internally. Um but I think it's really good idea to like look at the global talent side and say hey this is how we can make it affordable. So yeah, I think that's definitely something I'm considering and I think it's a great suggestion. >> Well, if if you want to bring on an early client that will pay you monthly to do that, I [laughter] am Liz. >> So Liz, how much would you pay for that? Well, >> well, so that's another very good question. So I know right now if I were to get a VA from one of the companies I've worked with before, it would be about 28 2,800 a month. So it would be a minimum of 2,800 a month. But then if it's a step beyond that, >> um, you know, you would have to decide how much that's worth. Um, for me, >> part of the reason this is so present for me is I lost my VA this week. Um, and part of it is because of AI and the AI work that I was trying to put on him and I wanted him to adopt. and we worked at it for a while and ultimately although it wasn't flat out spoken that was something that caused a lot of tension and so now I'm out there looking I'm going to start looking tomorrow and um I have a feeling there's so many business owners I mean you and I are in EO think about all the people we know in EO that probably would be willing to have or already have VAS but they want a certain flavor of VA and It's like a Pedro. >> Wait, is Pedro a VA? >> Uh, not really a virtual assistant. He's a little more advanced, but he knows Cloud Code. He knows how to code. He'll be on He'll be in the course, so you'll you'll meet him. >> He's great. He's fantastic. So, I think you're right, Liz. So, I mean, one thing we could do too to start off is like if people had VAS, we could start training there. But then I think it's right to just go find the people, pre-train them, and then rent them out. Right. >> Right. trying to train the VA that is very likely to be either threatened or just find it unpleasant is hard and that's what I encountered and it's it's actually a huge loss to the business because he's been with me for four years. >> Wow. And you feel feel like he left because he was threatened that you were like automating his job or something. That was a big part of it because a big part of his job in the last six months has been trying to find, you know, automation vendors, people to help us automate various things. And quite frankly, it's stuff that he was doing manually. So, a lot of prospecting, a lot of list creation. >> So, great conversation. Let me see if I can pull it back into the things that we had here. So, you've gotten uh hey, open a VA education firm. you've got these other things here. What do you want to do from this conversation and what does this make you want to do next? >> So, I think there are probably three takeaways here. One is to try the nonbeerbased approach a little bit. I I won't commit to it full time, but I will [laughter] I will mix in some other stuff. Um, >> you just lost Amy. >> That's Well, she can read the stuff that's helpful, right? Um, I'll do that like every other post. And then the distribution issue is one I've been thinking a lot about. So I really appreciated Liz's point about that. And then yeah, like obviously I respond to the business model that LE I think for small business owners it's a very effective model to have you know you can afford that. The question is going to be how many people can get to Pedro if we train them. like I don't know I don't know what the percentage is that we can do that with but it'll be interesting to see. So those are three takeaways that were great. >> What a great conversation. I mean thank you to all those people that showed up and I'm going to hand it right over to Lauren to close us out. I appreciate the opportunity to help run a little bit of process to get some great results. >> I just want to thank everyone. Uh Chris, thank you for facilitating as always. Thank you for all of you who took the time to come and participate in uh in this conversation and especially uh you Allan. Thank you for uh sharing this challenge that you're confronting and uh walking through it with us. >> It was great Lauren. Thanks so much. >> One thing before you go, [music] everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. 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