I Can’t Have a Handle on Everything

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week Jay goldz and Laura Xander talk about the limits of their own management once a business gets past a certain size no owner can do everything or even be aware of everything but where do you draw the line does the owner need to be conversent with most aspects of management marketing and finance to oversee the business this came up in part because Jay told us recently that his framing shops routinely ask customers how they learned of the business and that a recent review indicated that his social media efforts were not having an impact but when asked about those efforts Jay wasn't entirely sure what they consisted of or whether they even existed perhaps surprisingly he also wasn't all that interested in learning more it was all working well enough he concluded and that was all he needed to know that's the starting point for today's main conversation along the way we also address such questions as where's the line between being a manager and being a therapist do owners need to be passionate about their business what does the phrase people over profits really mean and while the customer is always right has become a cliche is it really a good policy even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations brought to you by our principal sponsor the great game of business will it owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which magazine named the best newsletter for business owners and which you can subscribe to for free at 21h hats.com where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Jay gos CEO of the gos group whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home and Laura Xander who was CEO of Jimmy beans wool a digital yarn store based in Reno Nevada and mateline TSH a y supplier based in Fort Worth Texas the episode is titled I can't have a handle on everything welcome Jay and Laura it's great to have you here I want to play a little bit of a game today sort of I I want to see if I can trigger Jay I've gotten pretty good at it I don't usually try to do it no you're gifted Lauren really gifted you're selling yourself short as listeners to this podcast know Jay does have some strongly held beliefs and we sometimes Hit Upon topics that you feel strongly about so today I want to see if we can dig deeper into a few of those topics and understand what it is that kind of sets Jay off this sounds like so much fun I'm so stoked I'm gonna be calm cool collected like nothing's going to get me I'm just going to be like just challenge accepted yes exactly but before we do that Laura we haven't talked to you in a little while how are you how's it going it's going I'm I've decided I'm going to go on sabatical in a few months I don't know if I really will or not but that's helping me get through this I'm going through a tough employee period feel everything comes in threes right so we just I just found out yesterday that my team three of my employees um were at a retreat you know a yarn Retreat this past weekend so we had a little booth there you know it's a hundred customers 100 women that are paying big money to stay at this nice resort um and then you have a bunch of different vendors like us who have tables and are supposed to interact with you know the retrea um and sell some stuff and blah blah blah so anyway find out that one of our team me one of the three team members um behaved pretty inappropriately during the event um you know getting stumbling drunk not coming to the booth on time being an hour or too late being on her phone um there was a presentation one evening about missing indigenous women she was in the front row and just rudely like facetimed somebody and got up and walked out just really and this is somebody who had been written up she's been written up twice in the last five weeks she was a great I thought she was a great employee a few months ago and then something just shifted something changed about six or 8 weeks ago and she's been coming to work late you know been leaving early hasn't been she's on salary hasn't been put putting in her 40 hours making tons of mistakes so yeah so that that was our fun that was yesterday so what are you doing about that Laura um we're going to let her go right before this podcast the leadership team we all sat and talked together I mean we've worked so hard to wait wait wait you keep going we who's your manager it's not you I assume no it's not so what's her manager have to say she's with her all day long she knows better than you do because you're not there all the time what does the manager got to say about all this that we should let her go I mean she's the one yeah I mean we're all in agreement she's the one who's written her up um you know the last couple times we've had a couple different verbal conversations so her work has just gone downhill and it doesn't seem to be getting better even after multiple conversations did she have any explanation no um and we haven't even talk to her about the drinking or at the event her manager talk to her about the phone usage and it didn't change you know there's always a thin line between being a therapist and being the manager and I'm not saying you shouldn't go out of your way for employees and try to be supportive but there is a line to where that's just not our job and they need to and it sounds like you made a good faith effort to try to fix it enough there is such a thing as enough because the next level you start doing it you are their therapist and now all of a sudden you find out things that you wish you wouldn't have known and now all of a sudden you have a legal responsibility just and it's like it sounds like you're in the right place yeah so you said things come in threes this is one all right that's a stupid phrase so let's not even go there things don't necessarily come in threes Sometimes they come in ones Sometimes they come in fours but sometimes they do come in threes all right in her case it sounds like it happened to fit okay go ahead tell us your two and three now so that was that and then um oh we received $65,000 worth of materials from our supplier in South Africa and it's bad material so we've had to so I'm yesterday started going through um all the data reporting back to the mill trying to come up with a solution like what are we going to do with this bad inventory how do we send it back can we Salvage it blah blah blah and then the third thing yesterday that um came to a head was so our bank so we have been with US Bank for I don't know 15 years something like that they have the couple of guys that have managed of our our account here in town are phenomenal nicest guys ever bend over backwards super responsive anytime we have a problem or a question well about a year ago year and four months ago they said we'd like you to change your merchant services so we've been using a merchant processing company for the last 15 years that was a small family-owned business and we'd always resisted changing to anybody else it's a lot of work to change for us because we have a custombuilt software system so US Bank came to us and said hey you know will you change we'll give you two months of merchant processing for free and you're going to save our rates are about $155,000 a year cheaper than what you're currently doing okay okay you know we didn't want to we didn't want to but we did the math and we're like all right you know this is 30 or $40,000 it's worth it these rates are not going to change right you're not like just hooking us and telling us these are some great rates and you know and then next year you're going to increase the rates nope the rates aren't going to change so couple weeks ago get a letter in the mail our rates were going to quadruple oh for God's sakes quadruple so I go back to him and I say hey you know this sucks you know here's the email chain of where I asked if the rates were going to change and you told us no and it was a different guy like the merchant services guy was like a a different sales guy than the people we normally work with and now he's obviously now he's not there anymore and he's somewhere else so they say yeah sorry let's see what we can do so we have multiple conversations well they came back and they're like the best we can do is doubling your rates instead of quadrupling wow so we're just like seriously so I sent a note yesterday and talked to them and was just like all right we're leaving the bank like this is enough there have been a bunch of kind of we I pay some of our vendors through autopay mechanisms through the bank and they've failed multiple times over the last couple months they don't have an answer for why like their software is failing or their technolog is failing we just had an overdraft a couple like two days ago because our automatic payment transfer our automatic transfer didn't happen because they've changed something in the software and so that caused you know an overdraft and anyway so we just said you know we've completely lost trust so that was there's my third okay so let me just give you some feedback from my perspect unsolicited advice no it is solicited you're asking me okay one is um I've never used the processor that the bank uses because they're two different things and just because it's good for the bank doesn't mean it's good for me so I've always had it separate so that's one two is from my experience these gigantic Banks couldn't care less about you me or any other small business and I'm not surprised that it fell apart because I've just found that that you're like you're like Beyond insignificant to them no one no one's waking up going oh my God Laura's changing bank so it just seemed like a matter of time before that reared its ugly head so none of this surprises me no it doesn't I think what surprised me was how long they were so great you know and how helpful they have been in the past with our mortgage with the SBA loan I mean they bent over backwards to make that happen you know when it came to the PPP and all that stuff so they have been phenomenal with which I think is probably the exception yeah no it's unfortunate Laura do you know what you're going to do uh for a bank and for merchant services um merchant services were going to crawl back to the company that we had been with for you know almost 20 years before this I mean we're you know we were loyal okay let's not say crawl back they're going to be happy to have you sure it's not like they G have to beg them they're gonna be happy to have you back yes well we will go back um and then I don't know about Bank wise I'm going to Doug will take care of that and he'll figure that out Jay you have another bank story going right now could you give us a quick version of what you're going through the big bank took over my local Chicago bank and uh knew there might be a problem down the road all of a sudden in December I still am writing checks I'm going to electronic but at the moment we were writing checks and we find out that 40 checks that we took to the post office were stolen and all of a sudden they started coming back to the bank and this is the amazing part the endorsements they actually people took a check made out to Acme company and Joe Schmo signs on the bank and puts it in his bank account and the bank takes it and then the bank sends it to my bank and they pay it even though the name on the back isn't signed by Acme company it's signed by Joe Schmo they pay the person so we immediately shut off the account and they say okay you're going to have to send us now affidavits from every one of these vendors they've got to send you a signature saying we never received the check and it needs to be notorized okay so this is the part you wouldn't know you'd like to think that your vendors would feel bad and B go out of their way to help you out okay well that was the case in 20 some of them but 10 of them it's like pulling teeth could you just sign a pie oh I'm not comfortable doing that seriously I've been a customer for 25 years right so I've gotten 39 of them I'm still trying to get one of them to sign the stupid piece of paper that simply says we never got the check and now it's now March I just got back two of them the refunds I'm out 40,000 bucks two checks are finally got reimbursed from the the other Banks but like whatever you think about banking that you think there's some controls forget about it endorsements apparently are meaningless now and um so I talked to other people and they oh yeah if you Google it it's all over the place it's they're they're sealing them at the post office there they they've held up some some mail people and taken their keys and gotten into the box could this happen if you were paying with an electronic check I don't think so so we're moving to that so here's a lesson that I'm taking from this being a small business or a medium business owner sounds so romantic and sexy but we spend a ton of our time doing like freaking admin firefighting right I mean talking with the bank and figuring out like all this stuff that significant to the bank and I should have left the bank a year ago and I just left now but how is this building and this is where Doug gets so frustrated all the time he's like we're not working on the business I mean think of all this time that we could have been spending doing this stuff that you know we're just fire we're admin well listen if I'm blamed for anything I should have changed Banks earlier because the new bank would have given me a provisional credit and the big bank that took over my they couldn't care less it's like I'm out 40 Grand now and yeah you'll you'll get back most of it it'll probably take three or four or five months and they're com perfectly comfortable telling me that even though keep in mind they're the ones that paid the check that had an endorsement that didn't match they didn't even try to write AC me on the back they wrote their name these are I think these are the real people's names that are stealing the money they put their actual names on the back and the bank paid it anyway so so now that I got you warmed up a little bit got me all right nicely done thank you thank you thank you let me run a few things by you let's start with this what do you think of the phrase entrepreneurs should always follow their passion yeah that's such a warm and fuzzy thing and unfortunately certainly there's passion in business but the math has to work and I've seen lots of people who followed their passion and lost three $300,000 cuz it just was a bad idea so stop listening to your friends to go oh my God these are the best cupcakes I've ever eaten you need to open up a cupcake store oh my God you'll be a billionaire and then open it and find out oops not really that's like marrying for love but the guy that you love is a cheater and an alcoholic and a total like 80% of the time but you love him the other 20 80% of the time wow I'm just making up numbers yeah sometimes what we love to do lots of people like to do and you just can't make any money at it cuz the math doesn't work so Jay I wanted to ask you about this because it kind of came up during our conversations about you're thinking about uh doing an ESOP it came up with regard to one of your businesses which is Jason home which is not the business you started with and you said some things that kind of suggested to me that you don't quite have the same passion for this business and yet it's been it's been very successful and I'm just curious how you think about that well there isn't anything in the framing business I haven't done I mean that's what I started with I love framing I love turning things into greatl looking you know frame pictures for customers and I there is a part of that business that I haven't done and and enjoy the home store was a function of oh it's horizontal integration oh these same customers are getting framing probably would like to buy some furniture I have some extra space I think I'll start a little offshoot over here and then I hire some talented people and it turned into a a a pretty big business no I don't have a feel for that business like I do in the framing I have nothing to do with the whole purchasing and the design or anything else and no I I can't say that I I I I I'm not I'm not even close to his engaged in that business as I am in the framing business even though we should point out I me it's larger now than your picture framing business yes no it's yes it's it gets a lot of ATT I mean no question you know Bobby from queer ey buys there and as an editor said to me she goes Jay I don't know how you did it but you're nationally known we Jason home j a y s o n is nationally known and is a hot cool furniture store I told you I was in Morocco like on a retreat probably 10 years ago and um UPS came to the door of this retreat center and there was a box from Jason home and I'm like oh this is before I knew you and so I was just like stalking you I'm like oh my God that's Jake Golds that's his stuff like they even know him in Morocco he's so cool maybe someday he'll talk to me and yet Jay what I kind of hear you saying is that I mean you would pull out all stops to make sure that artist frame service succeeded and goes on whereas you don't have that same feeling for Jason home well I don't know if that I'm fully committed to Jason home I love the fact that we've got happy customers nationally maybe even it's mostly nationally but I certainly don't have the wherewithal to run it myself at all and if it's so it's just a it's just an odd thing I'm proud of it I feel great offering what we offer customers and that they're thrilled with the store but no I can't go back to the old days of I'm gonna go back and start doing the B I I can't do anything over there it's not I don't have the skill set I couldn't go ahead and oh so and so quit or retired well I'll just go back to doing that I can't do it it's not my thing so I certainly don't have the personal knowledge or skill set to take that business over if I ever needed to whereas framing I you know like I said I've done every single job in there I so yeah it's different I'm fully committed to it but it certainly would be more difficult for me to figure out how to keep it going if you know a few key people of it's different for me um I started with being passionate about the product you know when we started the business and then that just evolved into being passionate about business you know and or being passionate about my team I mean it wasn't so much what I was originally passionate about I found that I love building the business I love growing the business I love exploring I love taking on new things you know that's interesting you say that because in my case I am extremely passionate about the people that work at Jason home about supporting them about helping and being involved with making C so I am passionate about the business side of it I just do not have the same skill set with the actual product and what we sell Jay I think you're comfortable talking about this tell me if you're not but the person whose Vision this really was left a year or so ago I think yes and you know for you was I think a little bit of a a Crossroads I would call it Evolution um she was here you know 29 years and she decided it was time to move on to something else and I have an infrastructure that was very strong there so it was okay I I've you know here's here's what I've learned I've been in business for 45 years this year I mean you're G to go through some Evolution and there's going to be some time where some key people leave and things are different than they were for 5 years ago and things evolve and when you hire I don't care what business you're in when you start out with six employees it is unlikely when you're at 60 or 80 or 100 that those six employees are still going to be fitting into what your new the size of the business is and they sometimes they want to leave sometimes it's just it's it's it's extremely unfortunate and extremely painful sometimes but sometimes the person outgrows you and sometimes you outgrow the person in this case she had done it a long time and the situation here changed and she just decided that it was time to go do her own thing and I you know worked out something with her and it it all it was all a soft Landing so does this mean you really don't need to be passionate about a business to make it work I think you need to be passionate about something yes you know right it's right you do need to be passionate about it but just because you are passionate doesn't mean the business is going to succeed because it just might might be viable and vice versa if you're going to start a landscaping company it doesn't mean you have to be passionate about Landscaping to me it's you got to be passionate about building a company or passionate about blah blah blah right or let's just say this which is absolutely the case in my case how about I would argue you gotta be passionate to want to take care of customers totally which is absolutely the core of why I'm success I grew up my father's dim store I got weaned on taking care of customers I didn't know any different and there are people out there that hate their customers that about their customers you see them all over the place right all right I'm clearly not triggering you with this one let's move on try though let me try another one this one's about digital marketing and actually it's something that came up the last time Laura and Dana were on with you they were both talking about how they've used influencer marketing and they both expressed the opinion that it could work really well for you and your businesses you I think you do it to some extent with Jason Hol maybe not with uh picture framing and when I asked you about that I felt like you got a little bit defensive that this is not something that you really want to put your energy into I wouldn't call it defensive maybe dismissive I knew you were gonna get defensive about him saying no I because being defensive means I feel like you're attacking me I don't feel like you're attacking me I I just I I am dismissive of it because we do it and I just have not seen any evidence that it's working Point Lauren Lauren you just scored a point just so you know thank you thank you Lauren you were dismissive of it I think you were a little bit defensive too when I asked you well what are you doing your answer was kind of a quick well we're doing stuff yeah there's no question I would give you this I don't know if defensive is the right word but the answer is I know we're doing a lot of stuff for Jason I know it's working well I hear about it I simply don't have the day-to-day knowledge that I can sit here and tell you what we're doing or what we're not doing which gets to my point of I just don't know every single thing that's going on in the company and some people might go oh well that's terrible you have yeah really it's working okay for me I don't know what to tell you I got 130 employees they're competent they own their job they do a great job I I will tell you this which to me is a lit Mist test of it I was I've been in a business group with six other business owners every single month and I've said this to them at the end of the meeting I could confidently say to all them do you know what you all have in common that I don't every one of of you is stressed out they would say during the meeting they're stress I'm not stressed out like I'm not a micromanager it's like it's okay I don't have a total handle personally on the digital marketing but I feel comfortable that my people do do I think we're doing it as best as possible I'm sure not perhaps I need I need to hire a a outside firm or something but like I just I can't have a complete handle on everything so that might part I might be defensive about if in fact you're insinuating that I should well go ahead I just tool to use than I appreciate that no I don't I don't expect you to be able to handle everything yourself that doesn't make any sense at all and I'm certainly not encouraging you to be a micromanager but there's a difference between being able to do it all yourself and being conversent in it and I don't think you've made the effort to be conversent in digital marketing true you're not doing your own taxes either but but you know accounting and you know what to look for and I'm curious if maybe it might be worth a little bit more of your time sure maybe Laura you are conversing with digital marketing she's 20 years younger than me big difference Jay you are smart enough to figure it out I mean I understand but she grew I have I have to remind everybody when I started in business there was no such thing as the computer on a desk there was Zero computers she grew up with computer I'm there with you I understand um she's a native uh certainly much more so than we are but I remember when the microwave came out he could do this if he wanted to and I'm I'm just raising the question and hope you're right I could do it if I wanted to I have to decide what I want to do and I'm in the I'm on Jay's side with this I'm whatever makes me happy and I think that especially with marketing we see this in the software world as well but we keep using new terms and we keep throwing new phrases around influencer marketing blah blah blah we've been doing influencer marketing for forever I mean for the at least the last 50 years or 70 years the format has changed maybe it was in print magazines before and now it's in Instagram or blah blah blah well wait a second we should we should Define that because but I just think the principles and the high level approach is the same you get someone popular who has an audience to help promote your product so I I think that Jay well that sounds that's you could be referring to celebrity marketing you know exactly that is a form of it for sure but you with social media you can do something different and for all Jay knows there are people posting pictures of one of his frames on uh Instagram and he could be using that to his advantage and it doesn't matter if the person is famous or not there's a way to to use I just don't think that's Jay's role um I think that that's tactical not for to do it himself but maybe to know whether it's happening don't you think well I certainly could find out of her doing that I I have to tell you some of this falls on I'm in a new place now you ready I'm in this phase I'm in the whatever phase like whatever really I mean that doesn't sound like no I I I'm I'm I'm I'm paying attention to a lot of stuff I can't argue with you I will follow up and find out where we're doing all that stuff but I I just at some point it's like I could spend my whole day hunting around I don't know I I will ask I think for framing first of all for Jason I feel good that we're doing the stuff right because I hear about it all the time for framing I know we're doing stuff I don't know that it's having any impact I certainly can follow up on it that's what you always say there's two pieces to this that you aren't addressing one is I we are doing it for Jason artist frame service the framing business is a local business it's just not the same thing and when you call influence marketing would you include I've got on my website that that architectural digest said we were the master framing Place in Chicago magazine named us the best framer in Chicago so I would call not okay I just think on a local basis I don't know that that's uh the kind of thing that works on a local basis I thought you were giving me your best shot is that the best you got Lauren seriously you just it seems like the same topic we just cover it does work on a local basis Jay and I think you've proved my point that you haven't taken the time to to really think about this in the way you would with with other things involving your business perhaps a little surprised I didn't get more backup from Laura on this but trying to sorry for you right now laurenz you're not giving your best shot at this I can think of far more things that would get me triggered than that all right go for it okay this is the one that's making me nuts lately when I read about these companies that or the organizations oh people will for profits uh okay there are clearly some times you should put people over profits maybe businesses slowed down a little bit and you could lay some people off but you don't and you hold on to them because they're good solid people that have worked few for years and you take a little hit a while until business comes back or until people leave on their own but you can't always put people over profits that's called going bankrupt because you do have to have profits so I believe yes you need to have profits and you need to take care of people the two are not mutually exclusive and a suggest that you can always put people over profits is just always said by people who don't run businesses well let me ask you this you you came up with a a really smart clever phrase that you have used in a number of places including in in blog posts you've written when we were at the New York Times um I've heard you use it you know in public speaking that phrase is it it's not the income it's the outcome doesn't that mean something very similar um it there's an overl that simply means that I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't have income that's part of the outcome I'm suggesting that all you have to do is read any magazine article but some of these super successful quote unquote people and their personal lives are a mess their kids don't talk to them they're suing each other the kids suing the parent the parents but they're usually not talking about people over profits no I'm suggesting you could make money and do some horrible things to the environment to your family to the neighborhood there's lots of people that make lots of money that are despicable human beings and I wouldn't call them successful so I'm saying making money is part of it no question the question is did you leave some people better off that worked for you were you supportive of your employees were you supportive of of any social things did you take good care of customers were they're happy it's not just profits but my point is profit needs to be one of those things it's not just the people absolutely yeah because it's irresponsible otherwise you're gonna go broke I mean there it was always people over profit you go nobody would nobody says profits aren't important I just think it's interesting that one of those phrases really triggers you and the other one is sort of something that you've ad oped as kind of a my problem is there's one organization in particular that has said that and I just it's just I find that sad that they're out there promoting that concept versus saying let's be responsible let's be responsible to our employees to our customers no problem but to suggest that somehow profits are bad and people are good which is how I take that is just really I I think you're taking it to an extreme let's try something else you've been complaining a lot uh about had customer service lately some of which you've experienced personally at the same time you hate it when people say the customer is always right yes I can help with the subtlety of that explain that if you own a business using that as a training tool to tell your employees the customer is always right is a horrible Training Method because they know that's not true I say the customer is usually right because they usually are and then once in a while they're not and it's just not worth fighting with them so we'll just tend their right and take care of it they'll go home Happy they'll come back they'll send their friends and everybody wins an employee can understand that in my case they pick up a their frame picture they get it home they come back and go you know I got it home and I open up and the glass was cracked I didn't do anything to it okay they dropped it they twist they but we don't go no no I saw it when it left here that we put the oh we're so s we give them new glass we don't fight with the customer every business has a version of that Laura you must have a version you sent me the and you know you shorted the order and like we don't know if they're making it up they're not whatever it's just not worth fighting with customers but to suggest is a training tool the C it doesn't explain the new explain the Nuance of it and I will tell you when you tell employees that they get it that makes sense we're just gonna pretend they're right because for $20 it's just not worth fighting with them that's a good training tool yeah no it's just it's marriage it's uh what hill do you want to die on yes and there's very few times I would never say 100% there's very few times that it's worth fighting with the customer now with that being said I'm not installing $30,000 heating air conditioning systems to where the customer goes I don't like it it's not working okay here's your money back so I understand in some businesses that might be difficult how often have you had to fire a customer or can you remember that's an excellent question in 45 years twice ah and were you involved both times uh yeah uh one of them just as simple they brought a picture in that was in had glass on it the glass was completely shattered and they wanted to fix so we reframed it and they come to pick it up and they said there's little scratches on the print we want you to get us a new print and we said well the glass was shared it said here on the invoice condition okay I go well I'm sorry they wrote that they should have said glass broken but this is obviously from the broken glass so I said to them why don't you call the moving company they're the ones that broke it and they said we already tried that oh it's like really so I said you know what the glass was shattered on here we didn't do it you know it we know it you know we didn't scratch the print we're not getting you new print and he goes well we're going to take you to small claims court I said okay sorry you feel that way I guess we'll see you there and of course I never soften them again there's a thin line between customer service and selling your soul and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you two times in 45 years I'm gonna argue from my experience the customer usually is right even if they're wrong they think they're maybe they did break it but they didn't know they broke the GL whatever there's not that many con artists out there that are trying to screw over the local business owner it's like I just don't think that's a huge problem and I do see people fighting with customers you can go on Yelp and see it it's incredible totally that you see the owner of the company get on there and lay into this customer using their own name Laura have you had to fire customers yeah the couple times that we've had to it's because they have been abusive like I mean you know just verbally inappropriate to our employees you know so if there is an issue whether or not it's something that we did right or wrong it doesn't matter like the tone and the just aggressiveness I agree with that there's a line to protect your employee Almost Never Happened it's only happened a handful of times all right my thanks to Jay go and Laura Xander and of course to our sponsor the great game of business which helps businesses Implement open book management and employee ownership you can learn more atre game.com wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that's L ren21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you really think he can take it and if you got something out of this conversation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter subscribe to the the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by Jess Theron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone [Music]