I Wouldn’t Have Done This Without Covid

[Music] Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host Lauren Feldman. This week, 5 years after CO arrived and as we find ourselves in another period of dramatic uncertainty, Jennifer Karen, Lena Maguire, and Sarah Seagull talk about the advances their businesses might never have made had it not been for the pandemic. from the technology they use to the people they employ to the systems they've created. It was very scary early on, says Jennifer, but it was transformational. Plus, do you hire full-time employees in anticipation of more business or when the new business is in hand? And Sarah asks what she should do when a new client signs a contract and her agency goes through all of the preliminary onboarding work only to have the client walk away. Lena's suggestion, review your cancellation policy. But she also tells us, "My business is 100% upfront. I get paid and then I do the work." Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. 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Joining me this week on the podcast, our regulars Jennifer Karen, CEO of SB Expose and Events, an events management business based near Baltimore, Lena Magcguire, CEO of Swoka Kitchen and Bath, which is based near Syracuse, New York, and designs and manages home remodeling projects, especially for those looking to age in place. and Sarah Seagull, CEO of Seagull Communications, a public relations firm based in San Francisco. The episode is titled I wouldn't have done this without co welcome Jennifer, Lena, and Sarah. It's now been 5 years since we all first heard of CO 19, especially since we seem to once again be going into a period of some uncertainty. I thought it would be interesting to compare where you and your businesses are today with where you and your businesses were when COVID hit. Uh Jennifer, maybe we could start with you. Um maybe tell us first what was the scariest moment for you and your business in 2020? I remember early on we had our first client call to say they were going to cancel their meeting and it was about a 30,000 person meeting that was held in the late spring of 2020. I've never seen uh a meeting cancelled except once and that was due to a hurricane that was coming into New Orleans and it was cancelled I you know 5 days beforehand or something because of the weather. But this was months maybe not months maybe 6 to 8 weeks and they canled it and a lot of other meeting planners were talking about what they were going to do too. That was the scariest part is the unknown of wait a minute and I remember telling some other people outside of my industry that we're we were kind of the canaries in the coal mine and watch out and then we saw events and and I don't mean 100 person events I mean thousand person conventions that were cancelled um pretty quickly throughout the spring and the summer and then maybe hoping that the fall like October of 2020 would come back and then when that didn't so that that first meeting being cancelled was the first like wo this is not a weather related one. This is due to the pandemic was very very scary. But what's strange is that summer um the technology company that we work with for event technology managed somehow uh to create a product that did virtual conventions. And so we started doing virtual conventions in the fall of 2020. And that has actually transformed my business. So it was very scary early on, but it was transformational. How's your business different today than it was back then? Well, it's about four times the size. So that's a great thing. Yeah. Um, a couple big things. One is we are now fully remote. Uh, I had put a contract down on an office building and we are supposed to settle March 22nd of 2020. So when we all went home uh what we thought to be the first two weeks um in March I canceled that contract and since that time we are remote. So now I have 30 employees in 13 different states. So my labor pool is very different. We're a fully remote workforce. I don't think I would have done this without co uh second we now do a significant amount of work with hybrid conventions. Um, all of us probably went to a lot of sort of virtual conventions that first year, year and a half. Hybrid conventions are different because it's not necessarily the same time. What what we call live streaming. So, it's not like watching the Super Bowl where everybody's watching at once. Um, what we do hybrid conventions a lot is kind of like Netflix where you can go to the meeting. So, think of the meeting like an in-person performance, sports or theater, whatever. Or you could sit at home at 2 a.m. on Saturday and click up like Netflix and find some content. We do a lot of that where associations have done an unbelievable job of reaching a larger audience. Their in-person convention is for people that want to to be their networking experience in addition to getting accredited educational content. But if they can't, the association has worked with us to figure out how to monetize that content that's already happening. and repackage it for after the meeting. So that um you know let's say you have 30,000 members and 3,000 of them come in person where the other 27,000 have an opportunity to buy two sessions or a track of sessions. They don't have to come to the entire meeting. definitely fantastic when you come because there's so much networking that's just not possible through virtual environment, but there's some incredible education that takes place that you can um watch and get accredited for after. So, we've um started a whole new department on hybrid conventions and figuring out how to monetize that content for associations to help their revenue. I think you said you've grown four times. Do you think that would have happened anyway or I think it was a catalyst for change. I think we would have grown somewhat maybe double the size but what co did is you know they and I'm sure someone famous of this I don't know when opportunity comes knocking you got to open the door so co provided an opportunity for us that we took advantage of doing the hybrid conventions and then other things fell into place so um the other aspect was labor so then I had access to really talented labor across the country but then the next one was we started to add services they came to us and said well look since you're doing this now can you also do that a year later we added registration uh it wasn't a service that we had previously offered but now that we knew the technology we did registration both for inerson and virtual events so that created a whole new department maybe I would have done it but it would have taken a lot longer co was the catalyst to um give us to take risks more co um actually worked well for me with the going to conventions I just came back from the kitchen and bath industry show in Las Vegas last week. And they have a separate ticket now. You can buy an expo ticket, but you can also buy what they call voices from the industry, which is the learning content. And if you don't attend, you can still buy that ticket. And it's wonderful. I wouldn't go every year. It It's just a great thing to be able to purchase that and watch that content and learn and get your CUS. So, for me, that has been wonderful. So, I I can see where your business would grow from that because that's like you said, those 27,000 people who weren't going to attend could benefit from that. But I did go to the show and I still prefer to have that time to network on the floor and then do use the content after I come back. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's a great example, Lena, is associations have found ways to combine the best of both worlds. for people that want to come in person. They're really developing experiences so you can network better and you can do the things you want to do on the trade show floor through the experience or meeting vendors, but then they're also figuring out, boy, they have amazing content that they can repackage to use afterwards. So, you you gave a great example, Jennifer, every day I read another story about a business that wants to get all its employees back in the office again. Are you fully comfortable with managing 30 employees in 13 different states? It's had its challenges, absolutely, but uh we're not going back in person. We are in a unique position that convention planning requires us to travel quite a bit. And so our staff meet each other uh as well as meet clients when they're on site for site visits or conventions. You combine that with the travel schedule being remote um is is very helpful for us and I will never go back to uh inerson place. I think we're doing a great job. We use Slack um in addition to emails, right? So Slack is constant for quick questions and thoughts. We try to build culture and I think working remote's fantastic. I'm surprised actually some companies are pulling people back in. How do you manage training more junior people though remotely? Is that ever been a challenge or do you just not have junior people? Uh we have a lot of junior people. We have a lot of coordinators. It's um definitely a challenge. I would say uh we've gotten better at it. The first week the person just spends with our um administrative uh she's a senior manager for HR and finance. first just doing our systems and the second week is doing more systems but in their department under their supervisor. The training part of that's been really great. We have a new system. Where it gets into harder part is if you're a coordinator and you're sitting next to an experienced manager, you can easily ask them a question if you're not sure, right? That osmosis learning that has been harder. And so we've done a lot of once a month we do lunch and learns. We have a Wednesday morning staff meeting where we do um five to 10 minute tech tips and then Slack. Uh each department, each client has its own Slack channel so that they're constantly saying, "Hey, how do I do this really quickly?" Right? That's been unbelievable. What I have found that I haven't quite gotten over is younger people also sometimes like the social aspect of being in office. you know, if you're older and you have a little bit more space in your house, let's say, and um a little bit more obligation, so you prefer being at home, but when you're younger, there's a social aspect that I totally forgot about. Being in the office, meeting other people, maybe going for drinks. I haven't quite figured that out yet, Sarah. I think it's okay for us because, like I said, they're traveling, they're going to different cities, they're spending time with other staff there, but that's a part that I didn't quite consider. Have you figured out how to handle payroll with people in 13 different states or is that still challenging? Um, I we have definitely gotten over the hurdle. Two years ago, I would sit at my desk at least once a month and just sobb at night because the state taxes was a nightmare. We did two big things. Um, the first is my fractional CFO, God bless her, on one of our meetings, I probably looked all red and blureyed and and she's like, "What's wrong?" And I was telling her and she's like, "Jen, let me take over this." So she took it this more on her plate and then we upgraded our payroll system. So we had a basic ADP system which I have now come to realize no matter what they say they were not prepared for all these different states and so it was they were creating more of a mess their side we upgraded to the next level of ADP or a different level I'm not quite sure that can better handle employees in different states and then my CFO helped me get up to speed on on logging in. So now it's it's very easy. Very very easy. And um and it's fantastic. That's great. Sarah, how about you? What were you doing in uh March of 2020? Um well, I was 2 years into my business, so I hadn't existed for very long. And I was lucky. So we had started the company, I say we because I had a partner at the time. We had started the company remotely just because it kind of fell into our laps. Um I had a a project that was handed to me and my then business partner was like, "Hey, let's start this thing." So, it was always virtual, but she left and a client of ours from the uh home furnishings company, Serena and Lily, Lily was starting a new company and had office space um in the town near me um and said, "Hey, listen. We don't have a huge budget. Um would you want office space in exchange for um some of your PR services?" So we moved into that office and you know obviously 3 months later um or it was a little bit longer than that um COVID happened, office was shut down and we were back to being virtual but since then we also have tripled in size and we have we have an office in San Francisco which is great but also you know with the triple in size is the triple in burden you know um it's the the payroll it's the HR it's the one-on ones it's the Okay, do I have enough team to service the clients that we have? But if I get another client, we're screwed because um we don't have enough people. So, do I start looking to hire another person or do I wait and just, you know, fill the gap? Like, it's a full-time job. You know, before I was, you know, spending, you know, 75% of my time doing like PR, you know, actually doing the client work. Now it's probably closer to 25%. The rest of the time the team is doing it and it's I'm still struggling with that's what everybody wants Sarah to uh pull themselves out of the dayto-day. I know. I mean and theoretically, yeah, but it also stresses me out to not know everything that's going on. And I I think that's just the way that I'm built. Like I want to know everything that's going on with every single client that we have. and I know that I can't. So, I really rely on that Monday meeting I have with my team to bring me up to speed on anything I missed and flag things that I need to really focus on. So, I don't know. I think it's just a I'd like to describe to people that my business is in its teenage years. You know, we're we're kind of awkward, but we have a lot of energy. Um, and I'm looking forward to adulthood. Do you think your business would be any different today if CO had not happened? Would it be any different today? I think my clients would be a little less hesitant to do things. For example, you know, we used to do a lot of like media events and popups and and things that were a little bit more in person. Um, I think a lot of clients got to this comfort zone where they're like, "Hey, I can still run a business and do pretty well without doing anything in person and interacting with people in real life." And yes, you absolutely can do that, but it's really hard on the media side because media loves that showand tell experience. Like, it's one thing for me to pitch somebody, you know, an Italian handbag. It's another thing for me to say, "Hey, we're having a cocktail hour for influencers and media. We'd love to introduce you to the product, show you, show and tell it all about it, and really give you a hands-on experience." And it's just hard to get that kind of connection um with potential writers and influencers without that in person. And and you know, people are they do do stuff. I'm not saying that they don't, but I'm just saying that they're hesitant about investing in it just because like, well, they've been doing fine without them. Lena, how about you? What were you doing in March of 2020? Oh, that was the infancy of my business. Uh, I had been about 2 years of side hustle, still had a a part-time job and testing the waters. And then COVID hit and the business started drying up. But the good part was that I learned the new technology. Um, online video conferencing has been a gamecher and because of the slowdown in the business, I have been able to learn how to use the product. So, you know, usually on a day-to-day basis, you don't you can't just like sit down and read the user manual, learn how to do everything. But because of the slowdown, I was able to take the time to learn the product and fine-tune some of my processes. So that now what used to take 18 to 24 months, I can do in about 8 weeks because I was able to focus on what I'm doing and using the tools and the customers like the experience better. So can you explain that, Lena? What what are you doing now uh that you're able to do in just 8 weeks? Uh I meet with my customers um and I have some that are not within the 15 to 20 minute radius that I prefer. So, you know, if I have a customer who's about an hour and a half away, rather than taking that drive for an hour and a half and then having a 90minute meeting and then an hour and a half drive back home, I can conduct a Zoom meeting after our first initial consultation where we've actually met in person. We can agree to meet via the video chat and I can share my screen. We can work in real time um sharing the software and actually making progress. So, I'm saving a lot of time that way. And because I know that this is what I'm going to do this week and then next week our meeting is going to be focused on this, I was able to reduce the time involved in having people make decisions and get the work done. So everything kind of condensed and it's to my benefit. Lena, that you bring up a really good part about sort of that sales discovery part can now be done by Zoom that frees up your time, but also do you think it makes clients sometimes I think it makes clients feel more comfortable than not having it in person? What are your thoughts cuz you are so intimately involved with your customers? My customers either have a strong preference to meet via Zoom because they're busy professionals or they prefer to meet in their home because they're insecure about the decisions they're going to make. So, it really comes down to the personality of the client. Um, and a lot of times what happens is we do a hybrid where we meet when we can, but then because they have travel schedules or they're tight on their deadlines, they request a Zoom meeting this time. So, it gives them more flexibility, more choices. Um, and it makes them more comfortable with how we're progressing so that we can stay on our 8week schedule without missing a beat. And they don't have to worry that, oh, I have to be somewhere else. They can still zoom in if they want to. Can I point out one thing? So, we use video conferencing all the time, but um I had a new business pitch um a couple weeks ago that we're still crossing our fingers on. And um got on the call with them. Um they had originally wanted us to meet us in person, but I think scheduling was tough. So, they asked to do it over um a video call, which is fine. And when we do video calls, we're I'm so used to at this point having one face per square, you know, but this company, we're all sitting in a conference room on one video conference and it was an awful experience for me because I couldn't see the reactions from any of them because they were just these little beings in the in the screen. It was terrible. I'm so used to be able to have everybody have their laptop so I can see their face. Sarah, I agree. I don't like it when I think they call it the owl, right? That something like that. Yeah. I find it disconcerting if everybody's going to be in a conference room. Honestly, I want to be there. I much prefer though to have these first couple calls by Zoom. Some point you like doing things in person. I get it. Especially in a conference room where people can brainstorm. It's much easier to do in person. But many many times we have saved hours and hours by like Lena said, you don't have to spend the time commuting to see a potential client or customer and they don't have to. It's low risk on their part to spend a half hour on Zoom to just see if you're any good. I love this postco do a lot of this by Zoom. Yeah. But I think there is something um important about, you know, even, you know, once you've landed the client, you had the client, you've got ongoing relationship is is finding the time to meet in person every once in a while because there's stuff that they're going to say um when you're just there one-on-one or in person or having a coffee or catching up or whatever that they're never going to say over a call. And um you know, so for us, you know, we try to to find time to like make an excuse to go see our clients so so we can get a temperature check on how they're doing. Maybe they have other things that are popping up. Like we get so used to doing everything virtually that we forget that that in-person experience and relationship is so important. Yeah, it really is. with with my um business format, the Zoom the uh video conferencing that would come in. When we're doing some layout things where I'm using the computer, but when we're selecting products, we have to touch and feel the products. I have to be right next to them. Like Sarah said, you want to see see the facial um expressions. You want to see the body language. For me, when I see uh if I'm in a showroom and we're looking at a product and you see the pupils dilate, you know that the customer is very excited about that particular product and you can start focusing on that. stop looking for something else. Oh, I've never thought about looking at people's eyes to dilate. Yeah, you their their pupils dilate when they're excited about something and their lips get very thin when they're angry about something or or they're concerned about something. My eyes are not good enough to even notice that. Oh, well, that's why you have you have to have one of your um junior level people like you train them on like human behavior and expressions and be like, "Okay, just slack me during the call if you see any of these things." When we're in construction, I do a weekly call to them. So, either they get a text message or a phone call or an email depending on what their preferences are. But that way, we have that touchbased point. But that's not always in person. So, I can start out in person, go to the video conferencing, go back to in person, and then, you know, even go to a phone call. So, for me, I have 24 weeks with the client, and we have all different methods of getting in touch with people. How do you deal with like if you have a husband and wife and they have different perspectives and different desires for the project? Well, that's part of our first meeting. We go over our goals and objectives and we figure out what's important to each person. A lot of times it comes down to one of the partners is more interested in how much things cost and the other is more interested in what things look like. Uh so a lot of times, you know, it's designing for the sexes. There's always a compromise at some point. As long as we find something that makes somebody else happy, they're fine. So, it's just a matter of, you know, finding a priority for each of them so that they each get something that's really important and then they're willing to compromise on things that are less important to them because they want the other person to be happy. So, we're always focusing on that. Okay. I I asked that because um today so we I went and I met with um a local restaurant with a with a couple different locations and potential location um outside of the Bay Area and went really well. Great conversation da da da da. And now his wife who founded the company with him is coming to our office because she has more questions and we hadn't met her yet. So it's just um it's going to be I know nothing about this person. and I all I know is that they're going to show up in my office and I wonder whether or not they're going to have questions about the work or the price or or what have you. So yeah, there's a question I ask early on in the meetings um when we're doing what I call the good fit meeting where just you know the discovery call kind of situation. Um I ask a question who else is going to be making decisions and I and you don't just ask that because when you say that they're like oh no I make the decisions. So I followed up with say um who else is going to be making decisions? Is your sister going to be shopping with you? Is your husband going to have to approve anything? So, you kind of feed them a little bit about, you know, who else might be in their periphery that would be coming in and making it a little harder for you because you don't know that person. They come in at the last minute and you have to start over again. Yeah. Interesting. Thank you. We've had some conversations on this podcast in in recent weeks uh with owners who've talked about sensing some uncertainty in the market, some reluctance to commit to projects uh and some softness in their business. Have any of you experienced anything like that? I have. So recent like um January came in like a lion. Like there was tons of business, phones ringing off the hook. Like it's crazy town, right? Um, and then and your your January are usually slow, aren't they? Oh, January is usually terrible for me. January is like I spend basically the latter half of the year before January to try to preserve myself from January. And I I kind of set myself up hopefully to like not have a bad January again because I just I know that people like they look at their books at the end of the year and then they say, "Oh, well, maybe we should buy paid ads instead or or whatever." So January came in, there was a lot of new business, some stuck, some wasn't a fit. Um, some were these gigantic RFPs that you have 30 different agency going after. So like we didn't make it to the cut, but we there was a handful that we got. I'm really excited about it. Like, okay, good to go. So we had one client where we we even had an in-person onboarding. We all went to their location, sat down at the table, and went through a good hour and a half of onboarding with them um to get going. And the next day they were like, "So, we I think I we scared them because we had a lot of questions about how are you going to do this? What is this?" Like, and so they emailed me the next day, and they're like, and it wasn't even the owner. The owner didn't email me. It was it was like their right-hand man or woman. And they were like, "So, we're going to have to put a pause in this because we need to get our ducks in the row in house before we set forth on this. We're going to have to push it out two months." And I was like, "Glad I didn't hire anybody to kind of service this account." Right. Last week I emailed them and saying, "Hey, you know, like um I appreciate that you want to date your ducks in a row. Like just making sure that we're on track to start next month." and they were like, "Yeah, so we'd like to void the contract because um we're just not we're we're just not in a in a the right place to to move forward." And I'm like, it's just it was such a waste of time. Um and you know, I'm I'm I'm pissed. I'm pissed because I spent a lot of time working on the proposal, the onboarding, um nurturing this thing and then just for like and it was again not the owner emailing me. It was her second in command emailing me and I'm like it just it just I I don't I'm I'm I want to say this that and you're going to hold me to it but I am not going to work for them. Like that's not how you treat partners and that's not how you work with partners and that's not the kind of client I want. Sarah, did you have a signed contract? Yeah. What's your cancellation policy? It's a 30-day cancellation policy, but like I gave them the time because I was like, "Okay, well, they got to get their ducks in a row, so like we never started started." And yes, I can go back. Could you charge them? Yeah, charge them the first month at least to get something. I can go back and do that, but like honestly, it's just not it's not the way I operate, you know? Oh, you should. Yeah. You know what what it's going to do? It's going to make you feel slightly better because it sounds like you have a bitter taste in your mouth. Rightfully so. I don't think they led you on, but they got you down a path where you were ready to to to build this up and now you're frustrated. Totally understandable. And you're right. On the other hand, if you get some money cuz you did spend time on this, right? Think about that. You know, it might help a little bit if you got a chunk of money because I think about cancellation policies all the time as we get stronger and better in our businesses is when is to let it go and when not. Sarah, you seem to suggest that they might have been a little uncomfortable with all the questions that your team was was asking. How did you come to the conclusion that this was just about them getting their ducks in a row or whatever internal problems they have versus them maybe not being fully comfortable with what they saw from you guys? No, it wasn't about like it was more like we would ask about their messaging, you know, and be like, "Okay, so what is your key demographic? Who's buying your current products currently?" and they they didn't have those details, you know, so they didn't have answers to a lot of the baseline things that we need to develop a social media influencer and PR campaign like what is your target publications that you you'd really like to be able to be included in? What kind of influencers um you know like just stuff like that they couldn't a they didn't um they didn't know, right? And I think that they realized that they needed to do a little bit of inside homework first, which is fine. I get that. I mean, we can help them with it. Um, but they didn't even give us the opportunity to do that. That they were just like, "Yeah, we're not going to we're not going to move forward." Do you think they thought that you were going to do that for them? Well, I mean, we we can absolutely help them with them, but like I don't know what their demographics are. I don't look inside their Amazon looking at their purchasing. like, you know, I know that they have people on their team that do that. That might be how they're coming in. Um, I know I've been new to the marketing um, purchasing services and without actually knowing and being guided through it. There were expectations that I had when I came in that I thought, oh, they would help me get this information, but they were in your shoes where they were like expecting me to give that to them. So, we had to go into an additional contract so that they could help me do that and get that information. And it of course adds time and money to what's going on, but that might just be part of the education process. No, but here's the thing is that we weren't their first agency. They've worked with other agencies before. How long? Like 3 6 months and then they it doesn't work out too or is that I don't know the length of it. All all I know is it and in in retrospect it's like I I now can see all the red flags. I can see all the red flags and I'll think about asking him for for money, but like I'm just it's not how I operate. I really respect small business owners and I, you know, happens. I get that. Um, and there may be more to the story that I don't know. Yeah, I'm I'm probably I need my CFO to like yell at me a little bit about that. Probably. So, did you talk to the owner before? Oh my god, this they've been nurturing this relationship for like a year. Do you think you could call that owner and just say, "Hey, I got the message. Do you think we could chat so I could help figure out for the future of client relations and and get a maybe a little bit more understanding? I could. I just have to be in the right mood to do it. Sure. Have a glass of wine. I'm a little angry right now, right? Because that decision impacted my business, you know, and uh I I I had put it into my plan for the year and now it's not in my plan for the year, which is right. And that's why you have the contract. So I know. So you have to kind of respect your contract too because it's a tool that's working for you and you have a cancellation clause in there. That's right. Because what if you had hired people? I mean you are assuming based on the signed contract with a paid they're funding the contract. They signed it and now you're doing things because they made a commitment and then when they say oh I want to void the contract that's a cancelling it. So you have to back things. So, I would think that you might want to look at your contract and look at your consolation policy and see if you're actually comfortable with that and maybe that needs to be modified. I should I mean, honestly, this has never happened to me before. So, I'm like, it's a brand new territory. Oh, it's going to happen. This is what we learn from. So, Sarah, might as well start now. This is how we learn. That's right. That's right. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've adjusted my contract because I learned something and it always costs money. It's the school of hard knocks and that's the tuition you're paying. But then you, you know, you call up your attorney and you say, "Hey, this is what happened. How can I adjust my contract and then you know after a few years and few tries then you get something that's working better every time?" I know there are some agencies you know that actually with newer and like more startupy businesses will make those businesses pay 3 months in advance. I mean that makes sense. Absolutely. I don't trust that your business is I I I don't know. I can't rely on you. you need to pay upfront for three months um before we even get going. And I'd love to be in that position someday. My business is 100% upfront. I I get paid and then I do the work. I'm not that. That sounds lovely, Lena, to get 100% paid before you do the work. But I think Sarah, this is just a product of growing pains. We've all been there. I know. I told you I was a teenager. There are consequences. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. in my contract um because people will find out that the remodel project is going to cost significantly more than they anticipated. I have outs for them at different phases, but I when they're paying me, part of that money because I've done the work for them, that money gets credited within 12 months if they come back. So, we have a restart fee. It's not insignificant, but it's not crazy. But then, um any money that they've already put into it is applied to the new contract. So they're not losing anything unless they go beyond the 12 months of not not working because you know life happens. You know you're doing something, we're getting together and all of a sudden, you know, maybe a family member is injured or dies. You know, you just have to put the project on hold. So I have something in my contract that allows for that kind of contingency. But it also protects me saying that, you know, yes, this is a contingency and you can up to 12 months and then after that the money is just I keep it. Wow. You live and learn. I've gone through these things. So, well, this is my live and learn moment and I I'll figure out I I will ponder your recommendations. Jennifer, how's your business doing? Good. Um, it's not great, but it's it's moving at a slower pace, but um we grew at such a fast pace before, it's actually kind of lovely. Um, yeah. At times you've talked about it actually pulling back a little bit and not wanting to grow. Is that what's happening or do you think there are people similarly who are reluctant to commit right now? Um well the one thing about associations that I love is their membership bylaws often say they have to have a meeting. So um it's rare that they cancel it except in the case of a pandemic. No, I don't think um it's pulling back. I've put a little bit more emphasis on business development since the fall and we're seeing that come in. Is it a a flood of input? No. But it's it's not a trickle either. Lena, in our emails before uh today, you mentioned that you've had some issue with hiring vendors. Can you tell us about that? Oh, service providers. Yeah. Um I'm getting to the point where I need to hire out work and we have discovery calls to do marketing or accounting or whatever other outside services I need. And the meetings go well. uh you know, I interview a few different people and I select one and then I hire them and we do the work and it seems like it's a really good fit and everything's going well and then I find out that my expectations are not being met. Um, and I don't know if it's because I'm not communicating well or if I'm a perfectionist or I have such high expectations, but I'm starting to get frustrated because I've had two service provider issues in the last couple of weeks and I'm feeling like the common denominator is me. So, I want to step back and like, you know, what am I doing wrong? How can I improve this so that when I hire somebody to do work for me to take something off my plate that the expectations I have are actually being met or that they can in instill their expectations onto me so that I know what I'm getting into because something is is going astray and it's becoming very frustrating. Like you hired a marketing agency or something to do work for you. Can you talk about that? Yeah, I've I've hired a marketing agency. I' I've hired a new bookkeeper. Um, and they're lovely people. I enjoy working with them, but the deliverables are a little less than what I had anticipated. Uh, and then, uh, in the other situation, it would be that the cost of services has doubled. That sounds about right these days. Well, but it's the cost after they've quoted. Oh, well, let's go back to the contract discussion. Did you put the parameters of the contract or are they is it an hourly rate? Uh we had a flat fee to do something. Um and I paid that ahead of time and then they came back afterwards and said it was going to be triple and I'm like no. Uh we had an agreement. We signed it. Uh so this is what we're going to do. And it was like well but I did all this extra work. I didn't anticipate that. And you know being a decent human being I understand that they did do all that work. I'm not denying that they did lots of extra work, but we had a quoted fee in a contract. So, we negotiated what I was going to pay additional because I didn't want them to work for free, but I also didn't want to pay triple. I mean, I think, Lena, when you're dealing with new service providers, understanding the scope of work and your expectations is really hard. It's hard on their end, it's hard on your end, right? And I think you may have to go through a couple cycles if you trust that the work that they've done is good, just not up to what you wanted. I think you can work with them if if you like them and you feel like it's a fair rate to get to what you want. I think sometimes when we start in business, we have an idea, but it's hard to verbalize it to partners and it's sort of a trial and error till you get what you want. Now, if this person did a terrible job or the price was outrageous, then you can drop them. But sometimes that partnership relationship with new service providers, it takes a while. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree. I I agree. I Yeah, I do agree with that. And um I have the two different providers. And one, we are continuing the relationship. Um it is in partnership and we have good conversations. So, um our working is getting better because we are understanding each other more. Um the other one um we're just not moving forward because I've talked with other people in my situation and the fees that they want to charge are commensurate with somebody who has a lot more work that needs to be required. So I basically would be paying double what I should be based on the consensus of about eight or 10 people that I've I've spoken to about the same situation. So it sounds like you're you're working the process. Finding good partners on services is hard. I I'm on my fourth tax accountant and I finally feel like in the past year that I found a really great one. Yeah, I might need that name cuz that's one I'm looking for. I didn't know what I didn't know, right? And so in taxes, who wants to learn about that? I took a lot of their advice and this isn't the time of year to learn it either. Yeah, that's right. And so now I finally feel like I found a really great company. It's also I maybe couldn't have afforded this company when I first started and um now I can. So, it's an ongoing. Your partner that started with you may not be the partner you still need as your company's grown. Yeah. I had a score mentor tell me once that when you're hiring your lawyer, your accountant, your insurance agent, that what you should look for is a company that is the same size that you are going to be next year. So, like if you're a fivep person agency, then you should have somebody who is in that like four to eight people range so that they can understand where you are. And I think that's really good advice because if you're hiring a soloreneur and you've got 30 employees, they're probably not going to be able to handle the business that you're going to be wanting them to do. Speaking of tax accounting, uh we brought in a tax expert, Julianne Row, uh for a podcast that we published a few weeks ago. She talked about tax and accounting issues. Uh it actually started with a question that uh Sarah asked. Uh and I'm curious, Sarah, did you get something out of that conversation? Was it helpful? Have you made changes? Um, it was very helpful. Absolutely. And you know, I had been asking about like how to bonus myself or how to pay myself um and if I should do it as a withdrawal or as um in in my payroll and I've only had a brief conversation with my current tax accountants about it. they vehemently like um disagree and say that it doesn't really matter that because of the way that I'm set up as an LLC, which is a pass through that if I pay my taxes through payroll or pay it after the fact, it it doesn't matter because it's all registered. That said, you know, I was just trying I'm trying to get through the next couple of weeks. That's very different from what Julianne was saying. I know it is. And I and I I haven't broached it again. Um because I also, you know, she says one thing, they're saying something else. I did get the name of uh another tax accountant. Um so I'm going to make an appointment to talk to them because my husband and I also had a long conversation about it. And you know, we've we've had various tax accountants over the years. Um and for one reason or another, we've moved on from them. But the thing is is it's like our current tax account, they're very capable people as far as we can tell, but I don't feel like they're working hard for us to find those savings because I think that we're just one of their small clients. It goes back to what you were saying, Lena, about like finding an a a business that's a bit a little bit bigger, right? Um I think that they have enormous clients. So when they do our taxes, it's like we're just we're nothing. We're not important. we're not and finding us savings is not it's more work than it's worth for them. So, I did get a name of another tax accountant who is also in my same time zone, which I'm I'm looking forward to having um because being able to get on a call with somebody or or communicate with them in in real time during my hours is appealing to me. So, um I'm starting to search around for alternatives. Um, I just want to make sure that we're we're getting all our taxes in for the for the season because this is a pass through, so I have to do the April 15th. Um, and then maybe switch gears. Um, I just I don't know who to believe. So, I'm just I want to get a couple second opinions. You know, one last question I want to ask Jennifer, you were on an episode late last year in which you kind of teased us a little bit. You shared that you had a big idea that you were excited about that you'd been noodling on for a few years and you thought you might be ready to pull the trigger. You told us you would tell us that whether you were going to do it by the end of the year, but this is the first time we've seen you in a while. Can you tell us did you make a go or nogo decision? I made the decision, but unfortunately it's a no-go. I am so close to having an incredible management team handle all the client work and I'm I'm not direct client facing anymore, but I still like help do priorities, project management kind of stuff. Um, and I decided until I'm 100% out of that, I don't want to do the new new idea. And I'm very close. I'd say another 6 to 9 months. So, I'm holding off again for a while. and we'll ask me again at the end of the summer. So, you still think you might do it? Oh, I definitely am going to do it. It's just I need to have the door closed on this so I can be the CEO that's the visionary, the strategy maker, the the hire of the leadership and oversee the leadership. And I'm almost there. So, once I get out of that, then I can go do this new idea, which I'm guessing you're not quite ready to tell us what it is. Not quite ready to tell you. Understood. All right. My thanks to Jennifer Karen, Lena Maguire, and Sarah Seagull. Really appreciate you taking the time. One thing before you go. Everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. You can sign up for both by subscribing to the Morning Report. If you have any questions, you can email me at lauren21hats.com. And if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report, please tell a friend, tell an enemy, tell every business owner you know. Your word of mouth owner to owner will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us. Thank you. It means a lot. This episode was produced by another entrepreneur, Jess Stubberon, founder of Blank Word Productions. Thanks for listening, everyone. [Music]