I’m Looking for an Exit

Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. Six years ago, Kate Morgan walked away from the sale of [music] her business just days before closing. Since then, she's endured some rough stretches, [music] fighting through the pandemic and a slump in the software sector where many of her clients live. She's managed [music] to stay profitable, and she sees lots of opportunity ahead. But the grind has worn her down. After years of pushing, adapting, and holding on, she says she's had enough. She believes a strategic sale makes the most sense, [music] and she's working her network to find the right buyer. This week, she talks through her plan with David C. Barnett and Ted Wolf, two owners who, unlike most, have actually sold businesses and lived with the consequences. They pushed Kate to think carefully about her options and the pitfalls that trip up so many [music] owners. Plus, one reason Kate is ready to sell is that she's recently published a book and she'd like to devote more time and energy to accepting speaking opportunities. As it happens, [music] Ted has written two books that he's trying to figure out how to get published. Kate and David compare notes on the very different paths they've taken. David self-publishing through Amazon. Kate paying a big fee to work with Forbes Books. Both are quite happy with the choices they made. Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know [music] they are not alone in facing challenges. In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community, engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insight only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, you can sign up for the Morning Report newsletter, which offers examples every day of owners confronting challenges and seizing opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. Joining me this week on the podcast are David C. Barnett, who is based in New Brunswick, Canada, and helps people buy and sell businesses, Kate Morgan, who is CEO of Boston Human Capital Partners, [music] which is based in Boston and offers recruiting and fractional HR services, and Ted Wolf, who is CEO of Guidewise, which helps businesses implement AI, and is based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. The episode [music] is titled I'm looking for an exit. Welcome Dave, Kate, [music] and Ted. It's great to have all of you here. Kate, I gather you've come to an interesting decision about your business. Want to share what [music] that is? >> So, humble brag. I am a best-selling author, not only through Amazon, multiple categories, but now Barnes & Noble. And what I'm finding is that my business is picking up in rapid step. And as I start to look at where I'm going to spend my time and energy, I'm a little concerned with how I I don't have the capacity to be focusing on bolts. In order to take on the increasing demand, it will require a lot more heavy lifting. So, what I'm doing is actually I'm think considering an exit, but I want to be a little bit more strategic. So, six years ago, I had an offer and I backed out because of COVID and I wasn't sure if I was going to get up my earnout. And here I am at this crossroad and I'm thinking about how to approach exiting with a very different lens. And in part that is I don't necessarily want to work with a broker. I think my concern with going with a broker is I know how it works. It's sort of like if you sell a house, you got to make sure you're always available. Um otherwise, you know, if you're not showing your house, your realtor is going to kind of kick you to the curb. So I I don't want to be in this position where I don't necessarily think it's a good idea to bring an owner operator in. I think it actually would be a great acquisition to pair within a consulting firm or something like that. So, yeah, that's kind of where my head's at. >> Couple of things, Kate. One, you said you're concerned about your ability to focus on both. Uh, and I'm not sure what you meant by both. Did you mean both running the business and promoting your book? >> Correct. Because you don't make a ton of money off of books. It's more speaking engagements and the like. And I literally have not been able to really get any time to start building out speaking modules. I have one and I want to have five that really supports all of my work. >> No matter how successful your efforts are in promoting the book that has kind of a a limited shelf life at some point that will recede. Um what do you imagine you would do then if you by at that point you have sold the business? Well, couple of things. I think this has a lot more longevity because everything in there is not like flashy new things. Like if you look at the book who right that's been out for years and it's still a bestseller, right? I'm also looking at this from the perspective of being on the wrong side of 50 and I have a husband who's going to be retiring. So, I've done very well financially. So, it's never been it's not really about as much the money aspect as the time and quality of life and happiness perspective. >> Fair enough. You expressed some doubts about using a broker. Uh I'm sure uh David and Ted will have some thoughts on that, but first the first time you tried to sell your business and had an offer and came very close to selling it, did you use a broker that time? I did and it I mean I I I'm not knocking that experience. Um the broker I was working with, she was wonderful. It just wasn't a very uh enjoyable experience with having all these tire kickers come. And the way I'm looking at this is I realize that loans are hard to get for people because I'm I'm not cash strapped. I'm looking at doing seller uh financing. So, I think it's like actually an amazing opportunity for the right buyer. >> And what's your alternative to using a broker? How are you thinking about getting the word out there and finding that right? >> I was thinking about going on this uh podcast um 21 Hats and [laughter] uh >> in that in which case I get the fee. Correct. >> Yeah. [laughter] I'm sorry. My my mic isn't working again. I'm having trouble with my audio. Uh [laughter] Yeah. So, um I have been being a little strategic. So, I've been going out and having So, I've had I've had two conversations so far. I'm having a third tomorrow. >> Conversations with >> with other companies, >> prospective acquirers. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The first was interesting because our model for uh talent acquisition and HR services, we don't work on contingency. And because of that, even though a lot of firms have taken big hits, I've still remained very profitable. So I went to somebody that has more of like a traditional headunting firm and retain search. And he was very concerned about it cannibalizing his current business, but to be honest with you, it's like, well, maybe it should cannibalize it because I was I was very profitable where the last couple of years he hadn't been. The next was actually working with so a lot of the the uh accounting firms and and payroll companies they're starting to look at how to go broader and deeper in their their clients. So I do have one conversation that's already you know um being considered uh because they they grew the HR side. Um, I think my HR side is actually has a lot more legs and we have a lot more industries that they're not in. So, it could be very attractive to that person by reputation. Um, that person is not probably a good fit uh for me personally. The third I think is actually a really good potential fit because they do more business consulting and they already are trying to do a little bit more in the talent acquisition HR space. >> Dave, what else would you like to know? Do you have questions you would want to ask Kate? >> So, first some reassurances. So there's no hard data about exactly what percentages of businesses actually change hands using a broker or not, but my best guess is like 80% of businesses change hands without one. >> Oh, interesting. >> It's the vast majority of business transactions are done without an intermediary or an add-on bis by sell or something like that. and almost like you're you're starting off by talking about the tactic of seller financing. Most business transactions involve some degree of seller financing. So, it's great to hear that you're you're open to that, but it's not the place I would begin because you're talking about several different decisions that all come in a in an order of dominoes and we're talking about maybe three or four of the 21 hats here. So, at the beginning of the episode, you talked about how you wanted to focus on the book and do some speaking and things like that. So I would say that you are choosing a career change number one and then there's the conflict with your existing job. You you feel an obligation to that employer because you own that business. So you're you're trying to manage that in a smart way, right? >> Yeah. >> When deciding to put the business up for sale, then you have to find the right buyer. It's only after you have a buyer, you've agreed on a price, etc. that you can really entertain the decision of to what degree do I want to finance this transaction because that in part is going to depend upon who the other party is and what degree of confidence you have in them because that hat is actually a banker hat because you're literally lending someone money to to acquire something of value from you and so so these things I think need to be taken one at a time and I mean you're not alone a lot of people make the decision hey you if I had the option, I'd sell today, but then they don't take action. They don't hire a broker. A lot of the people that I work with, uh, on the buyer side, they go out and they they knock on the doors of business owners hoping to find someone who's in that position that they've decided maybe it's time for me to sell, but they haven't taken action. So, they kind of get a chance to talk to that someone before a broker might. You seem to have a pretty good idea of who you might want to sell it to. um you know the the one thing that that business brokers do deliver is they can deliver competition or a profitable well-run business. So it it really depends on the experience you have. You know, for you to go out and talk to a few people you think may want to acquire and then try to work something out with them and then later decide to go to a broker if nothing works. You wouldn't be the first person to go down that kind of path. >> Well, that's good. [laughter] It's nice to know that I'm not just crazy. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Um, if I could ask a couple questions. This is Ted Kate. Um, I think you mentioned you were in the headhunting area. Is that correct? >> Well, so headhunting is commission driven. We're we're talent acquisition and HR consulting services. >> Okay. Can I ask just a couple questions about you? Um, >> yeah. >> Where do you get your excitement? What do you find thrilling in a business? >> It's kind of funny. I was actually leading an accelerator uh program yesterday and that that question came up from the facilitator and uh I really enjoy being um the thought leader and the authority. Um, I think what is really become a grind is I've had my my business for 15 years now and uh, you've grown it to be exceptionally profitable and then COVID hit and then you know PPP loans was kind of weird because again that felt like a felony when they gave you a big lump of money. Uh, so but we did fine. Um and then we're in this situation where you know the the software market tanked three years ago. Well, now it's come back uh with a feverish pitch >> and that matters because you focus on uh placing people in tech companies. >> Well, again, I I hate that that sort of narrative. The the narrative is no, we help high growth VC bath companies. That's our ICP. Um, so we don't think about placing the people. We think about how we'll build companies. So yes, the bulk of it is was software. Now we're in life science and we, you know, are also catering to uh, no tech, low tech uh, industries. Most people in my industry, they're super myopic and they only will work in one industry and those all those companies tanked hard where we still were very profitable. But now it it's it's coming back with such a such a verocity that you I have to think about how to rebuild my company to the power it was before co that takes a lot of heavy lifting. >> So am I correct in saying then drinking martinis on the beach looks a little more attractive to you right now at this stage of your life? >> Oh my gosh. It's like you're reading my mind. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. I think I think it but it's twofold, right? It's it's also setting my team up >> uh to be super successful and [clears throat] giving them more uh more to go with their career. They're all, you know, they're young, they're brilliant, they're hardworking, so I want them to have a career path. >> Yeah. Have you ever heard of the term quality of earnings? >> No. >> Okay. Most people when they sell a business and Dave you probably a lot more information and statistics than I do but they look at EPA and then get the multiple and then they'll say this is what I'll get and then take my tax considerations in place. I'll take my employees into consideration. And then when they get to the bottom line, they look at it and say, "Wow, I'm not really selling this for what I thought I was on that opening number." And then they hit quality of earnings. And quality of earnings is what you'll go through, and I think you're probably big enough that they'll want to go through a quality of earnings exercise with you. And that's it's kind of like EPA with receipts, meaning prove every single thing that you claim in your business. and they go into extraordinary detail. Most people are not prepared for that quality of earnings exercise in any way, shape or form and they haven't planned and run their business to prepare them for it. So that'll be an exercise and something that will definitely tax your thinking ability. >> Yeah, I am a huge advocate. I haven't had heard of that term, but that's why I was going through the sale before, like legit, I called off the sale seven days before our close. >> Um, so the the broker was super impressed because I've really run the company so it could be as a standup operation without me. Um, at that time when I was running the company, I had so much infrastructure and people in place that I only spent five hours a week in the business. I had actually started a second company >> now. Um, so I'm not really concerned about that. And because of that exercise, I also know I I'm I feel very comfortable in what I'm looking to get, which I'd rather not disclose. >> Yeah, that's fine. >> Yeah. I I and and it's actually interesting because I think there's a lot of things that I are overhead that an acquiring company could come in and um do it for a lot less. You know, like I have a PEO. If a large company comes in, they could do away with the PEO. Um so yeah, there's there's lots of opportunities I think for a buyer to uh improve uh the the cash. Like I said, it's already, you know, I'm very [clears throat] profitable right now. >> Well, I I was just going to say where you're straining, Kate, is into the area that uh uh sometimes called synergies and sometimes called blue sky, where you're talking about how a buyer will be able to make more money with your business than you can. And it could very well absolutely be true. But most buyers are going to sit and think about that, and they're going to think, hm, I'm the one who's going to be doing the work to achieve those higher earnings. Why am I paying Kate for the work that I'm going to have to do to achieve those things? And and to Ted's point, most people I sit down with and go through an evaluation with, um, they usually end up saying something to the effect of, "Wow, if I just stayed and ran for a few more years, I'd have the same money." And and they're they're all correct. Right. My big question for you and you're you're talking about your employees and how you want them to prosper and have a great career path and everything. My question is are there any people there who you could step up and start running more of the day-to-day? Could you get back to that 5h hour a week sort of arrangement? >> No, you know it's it's kind of a shame. I have the best team I have ever had in 15 years. And I've worked very hard for the past three years in trying to get them to, you know, they have the owner mindset, but they don't have the strategic mindset, if that makes sense. Um, so the passion and the brilliance is there for for dayto-day, but I struggle even seeing them being uh, you know, really great managers to hire and manage >> folks. So if I if I could ask um I started out years ago my brother and I we worked for IBM left we started a head hunting firm and then staff augmentation in the technical area ended up being acquired by Iron Mountain Corporation. Reason why we got out of the business is we did everything we could do without putting our houses every asset we have back on the line with the bank so we could expand real depth nationally. We were national but not to the depth we needed to. So near and dear to my heart what you said you were doing and certainly understand it. I would say to you one of the first things to think about after you make the sale is your identity. >> Right now you're probably wrapped up in the thought strategy, the thought leader concept. And the book is certainly satisfying that. I can understand it. But I know so many so many people who have sold their business. They think they want to drink martinis on the beach and after a while that gets boring and then they just start listening to Fox News or CNN. [laughter] That determines their life. They go a little stale and then they ask and it's always how do I replace the adrenaline rush that I fell in love with when I had the business. But at the time I hated the adrenaline rush. So then they may start doing a little side stock trading and that's where they get their excitement and there is that's the biggest formula for disaster right there. So think about down the road what do I want to really do when I retire because some people it's not this way with everybody but some people when you retire it's the 800 number to the emergency room because they just go stale and they lose their discipline and their edge. Just think about it. But it sounds like if you want to start this other business, you're actually starting another business with being the author. You're in a startup situation again. [clears throat] >> They're hard to do. I've done a number of them. >> They're you're going to work harder then than now. I would just ask you to think about and consider maybe if I beef up my work aspect, it might go really well from the standpoint of I get in managers who can run it for me as Dave was asking in effect and saying I can have passive income here if I can get the right people. >> Yeah. And see that's again I I have done very very well. So I don't I don't need the lumpsum out out of the gate. I don't even actually mind because if I have this platform for thought leadership any opportunities that filter through from my thought leadership to the new company that I'm fine with. I need to go somewhere. >> K, how important is your reputation and uh and people's awareness of you and what you've done in the book and everything? How important is that to your business? >> So, yes, people know Kate Morgan uh in the industry, but I don't do the work. My team is so good that they're actually helping to draw in the new business. They'll say, "Hey, I know you worked with XYZ company. You know, I'm reaching out." How important is it to your new author and speaking business to be the owner and associated with your your recruiting business? >> Not necessary. I don't believe so anyways. >> Okay. Um but you're you're saying that right now is a is a great opportunity over the next decade for your business to grow because of what you see upcoming. >> Correct. But I'm also seeing I'm also seeing that the the market uh is actually coming back. so so quickly >> and there's there's no one in the firm that you think could take your role. >> Correct. >> So So there's there's another option which a business broker would never lead you to. >> But I'm I'm going to share it with you here. >> And that's because business brokers want transactions that close so that there's a a price and they can charge a commission, etc. >> Yeah. So, the other option is for you to go find the younger Kate or who who is out there already with their own business that could be smaller than yours that doesn't see an acquisition of your company as being possible, but you let them bring their firm in and become your partner, but that person becomes the day-to-day managing person. >> Yes. And that's that's exactly how I sort of envision this, but not necessarily in my space that I think there's so many adjacent, you know, companies, firms that this becomes an add-on and it could be really attractive. [clears throat] >> Are they going to be able to run it? >> Yes. >> You know, would a bunch of accountants be able to run your business? >> Uh, actually, yeah. Um, if you have a really strong operator, uh, the the team, we have all of our training modules, we have our processes all really well documented. Uh, so yeah, actually that I don't think that that would be a problem. Kate, if that's the case, it sounds like it should be a possibility to to bring in somebody from the outside to to take over your role and let your team run wi with it with some training and guidance. Is that something you would consider? No, because it it still requires a lot of energy and time that I really don't feel like managing. I just don't feel like managing it. >> Yeah, Kate, I have worked with a lot of people to prepare them for an exit. And big part of that is just honesty. And what I'm hearing is I think you've done what you wanted to do with the business. Now you're ready for the next episode and you kind of like burned out. You're losing the flame. >> You got it. [laughter] >> Okay. So, you got to be honest with yourself on that first of all. And number two, then say, "Okay, what am I going to replace it with?" In the book, the tour, you have some financial independence. I would just ask you to think about financials from the standpoint. Um, I know many people who have sold a business and they lost what they earned on it. And we don't know what's going to happen with business in the future with AI and all those other things that are going on. So just refortify and re-examine that whole financial aspect. Number one. Number two, your identity, your internal operating system. You certainly seem like you're an idea person. You're certainly smart enough to some of the things that you said about your business. I understand because having a very similar business, I think you get all that comes down to, okay, are you ready to go out and do that startup thing? And the startup thing might be, hey, I only work 10 I only want to work 10 15 hours a week and that's all I want to do and that's all I need to do. And if that's going to get your juices going again and keep you young at heart and mind, then do it. But make a decision and then make the decision right. >> Mhm. >> Don't worry about the right decision. I know so many people that go through Dave, I'm sure you've seen this, people that they're agonizing over the last quote unquote million dollars in a negotiation. I mean, I know somebody that was offered $50 million for their $35 million business and they didn't accept it because they wanted $51 million [laughter] and they lost the entire year. >> Oh, yeah. You got to love people. >> I I always say that the the top reasons why people want to sell a profitable small business, the the very number one reason is uh burnout, boredom, and fatigue. I I just call it the state the state of mind bucket. And then there's, you know, divorce, poor health, the need to relocate, and retirement. And I think it's great, Kate, that you're you're you're honest and understanding that you just don't want to do it anymore. I think if if you can't work out a good deal with the people you're talking to, I don't necessarily think it's a business broker that you need, but probably more of an M&A mid-market advisory firm because what I think you would benefit the most from would be somebody who would actually sit down and create a a target list of possible firms that would have great, you know, opportunity in acquiring your business. And that could be a firm on the other side of the country. It could be an international company that wants to have an American footprint. It could it could be anyone. But it's it's not just a business broker who's going to, you know, put a listing on the internet. >> Yeah. >> You you want someone who's going to really take a strategic point of view and and find the right fit to to acquire your business. It sounds like your business would be the great, you know, expansion for someone who might be big somewhere else. Yeah. who wants to come into your marketplace. >> Kate, you're making very clear that you want to do this and you want to do it now. Does that mean you're willing to accept pretty much any price to get this done? >> No. No, no, no, no, no. I uh I'm a a big uh disciple of Annie Duke and her book Quit, so I know exactly what I need. And I, you know, I think it it's a very attractive deal. I think [laughter] to to my daughter's credit, she's like, "Mom, you're undervaluing yourself, but it's because of some of these things that you guys have already pointed out that I'm willing to take the hit." >> What I would say to you also, Kate, entrepreneurs are usually very highly driven, emotional people and maybe have a touch of ADD to it. >> Um, few owners. Yeah. met few very few owners who were not ADD prone. I would say to you if that's where your emotions are and that's where your drive and you're getting that meaning and that passion is starting to come out where I'm a meat eater man. I'm going to get on that street and I'm going to tear it up whatever I'm going to do and I can't wait to get started. You have to listen to that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I want to shift to talking about books a little bit. But first, just one last thing, Kate. Do your employees know what you're thinking? >> No. No. But it was kind of funny. We had a uh we had our kickoff meeting earlier this week and one of the guys who's been with me for 13 years he's like what are you thinking about like an exit because I did open up that you know I was going to sell six years ago and uh you know so I just kind of left it as you know yeah for the right price but I don't I don't want to cause them any sort of anxiety or anything like that. I think they would trust me, but I don't want this to be a distraction. >> So, it it's interesting that you you bring up the employees because, you know, there there's different stakeholder groups in a business. Obviously, there there's the owner, there's employees, customers, etc. And one of the big reasons why business sales are typically secret. Um, you know, it's completely confidential is because of the impact that simply the state of being for sale can have on the different stakeholder groups. you know, customers may worry if there's a impending change of management, you know, etc. But when it comes to employees, we we know that the vast majority of people live paycheck to paycheck and they they need their income. And if people worry at all that there could be some impact on their employment, if they worry that, you know, the new owner might not like them, or maybe the business is really for sale because it's not doing well, or maybe Kate might just close it down if she can't find the right buyer, or maybe the new owner has a cousin who's going to come take my job. The these are all reasons why people become nervous, you know, when they work for a business that's for sale. And the best employees you have always have employment options. >> And so you you know these people pretty well cuz you work with them. But that's typically some of the worries going through an owner's mind when they think about selling and why the whole business for sale marketplace is generally a secret market. >> All right. So let's talk about books. This whole thing with Kate was driven to a large extent by your success in writing a book. Uh Ted, you're interested in doing something similar. Tell us what you've been thinking about here. >> Well, I actually wrote two books, business books, and I am s not published. >> Not published. Have them written, and I'm sitting back and I'm saying, "Okay, I don't even know where to go from here. This is totally new domain to me. I don't know about it. I don't know what to do. And I'm not sure where to go. I know there's tons of people out there that say, "Well, we'll ghost write your book or then we'll help you publish or whatever." I'm not looking to become, you know, on the New York Times bestselling list. I'm using it as a vehicle to begin building referrals, build the practice of my business, the current business I'm in out, but I don't even know where to start to be honest with you. Well, Kate and Dave have both been down this road, although they've taken very different approaches. Uh, you've both talked about them a little bit here. Dave, why don't you tell us uh how you went about publishing a book? Yeah, I I used Amazon's uh what they call Kindle Direct Publishing and uh basically you write your book, you know, in Word or whatever you want to use. Uh and then um I think the first time I did it, I actually downloaded a template from them, which was basically just a, you know, a blank book with the margins and everything already set. And you set up your book and make sure it looks nice on your computer screen and then you upload it and uh then they create a PDF proof. The first few books I did, I hired uh, you know, freelance artists off of the different freelance websites to create covers for me and stuff. Uh, and then I just promoted them myself and and I never really looked to create the next best seller. I was more or less looking to create tools that would help me in the sales for my business and give me credibility. And um, and they have ended up being incredibly great sales generators. My first book came out in 2014. And I've learned since that time that there are a lot of people who when they have a particular problem or question, they go looking for a book on the topic. And if you know, one of my books addresses that topic, people will buy it. They'll read it and then sometimes they'll reach out or or at least they'll they'll join my YouTube audience or come into my sphere in some way. Uh and then I got a chance of doing business with them. >> Um one quick question if I could ask you, Dave. Yeah. >> Why'd you choose a book versus an ebook? Well, so I back in 2014, not many people knew about an ebook and uh they are all available on Kindle and most of them are also available on different websites I run as PDFs too. And and all of them are now also available as audiobooks as well. And I'll tell you audiobooks are important because uh audiobooks seem to be far more popular than ebooks and print books combined now. Mhm. >> And and are you doing the audio book yourself through Amazon or are you taking a different route on the on that? >> The first books I did, I recorded them all myself and it's an incredible amount of work. >> Yes. >> Um I it's it's unreal. I I used u basically I used a recording app on my iPhone and a and the microphone I'm talking to you on right now. So it was a it was a better quality mic. But then I I hired a person again, a freelancer who's a sound engineer who who then prepped them all according to Amazon specs. It's called ICX, but now they've got a new AI tool. And so the last two books that I updated and put out, I tried their AI tool and it lets you choose different voices. And I chose, you know, sort of a generic, you know, accented voice that I thought was kind of approximate to mine. And my my thought was, hey, you know what? I'm going to offer this for sale and if people return it because they don't like it, then I'll know that it doesn't work. Uh, and that was six months ago. And people are buying it and nobody's returning it. >> So, so I think the technology has gotten to the point where people are accepting it. >> And what did this process cost you, Dave? >> Oh, just my time and whatever I paid freelancers. >> There was no fee to Amazon. The printed books are print on demand and they've got these machines in different places around the world. So if someone orders a book in in Europe, it gets printed in in England. And if someone orders a book in Canada, it's printed here. Or in in the States, I think there's a couple of different spots, but it's it there's no inventory. So you don't have to have a a garage full of 10,000 copies. And of course, the the electronic ebooks and the audio books, it's all electronic files. Before I ask Kate her her approach, Ted, why don't you tell us what are the topics of your two books? Well, the one book is how to prepare a business for an exit or putting in a succession plan or to go out and get funding. And uh the reason for that is because I think there's a lot of individuals that are in this. I'm not sure if I want to sell. I think I do. Dave, you might know this, but my my last statistics that I found was about 30% of businesses that want to be acquired actually get acquired. And everybody doesn't think that way. They think, well, I got a great business. I'm making profits and somebody's going to buy this business. But it isn't that way. So, that was one book. And the other one other book is um it's a [clears throat] methodology on how you would actually manage change within your business. Every company's going through massive change and a big part is people's resistance to change. And that's what the second book is about. How do we get people to adopt change and start using it to produce work and change from technology, change from a sale, change could even be promoted to a new position. So they're the two topics of these two books. >> Well, Ted, actually uh the the business for sale website, Bisby by Sell, publishes a report every quarter, and uh the last couple that I saw were pretty consistent. About 80% of the businesses that get listed there on that website do not sell. So it it jives p and I know that that runs a gamut from the very smallest of businesses to to some in the mid-market, but it jives perfectly with what you're saying there. There's a big big difference between a a a business that puts money in someone's pocket versus a transferable going concern. >> Exactly. And that's exactly what I address. Right. >> Kate, you took a different approach. Can you tell us how you published the book? >> Yeah. [clears throat] So, I I worked with Forbes, not the authority group, but the actual Forbes. >> Well, let's be it's there's a company called um I forget exactly what the title is. Uh but they have a Forbes imprint there. Uh it's not the actual people who work at Forbes magazine. Um >> right. Correct. >> Well, it's Forbes books, >> right? And this company which is based in Charleston, South Carolina, uh has a deal with Forb the the the [clears throat] magazine publisher and they publish books under that imprint. >> Correct. And that's so that's like the upper echelon, you know, when you look at it. So I I went that route and because there is the the direct correlation to Forbes and I also get to have featured pieces on it. So they it's not just publishing through that organization. It's all of the other things that come along with it because uh the one thing we did back out was doing PR. They couldn't figure it uh PR for me. Uh but yeah, I spent a boatload and it has been >> You've told us before how much that was. >> Yes, it was $200,000, but I'm super happy with it. I wouldn't change a thing. Uh, like I said, I've been on uh 15 different categories as bestseller on Amazon, and I was able to get the badge because it was also organic, not paid. I am also now uh I think I was number five on Barnes & Noble. >> And just to be clear, Kate, you you paid $200,000 for this, but you didn't hire a ghost writer. You you wrote the book yourself, right? >> Correct. I they did give me uh my my book coach uh who my god if I didn't have her I'd have a pamphlet. I wouldn't have a book because there's so much unconscious competence that I have and she'd be like no you have to explain this and uh so that I mean she really helped make it what it is today. >> So Ted an obvious question you're you're a big AI guy. Have you asked Chat GBT or Claude or anybody else what the best approach to publishing a book would be? >> Um, I asked it but um it gave me mixed results in my mind to be honest with you. I tend to go towards Dave's avenue. I'm not looking to become a bestseller. I'm looking to help people cuz you know when you want to be acquired generally preparing your company takes three to five years to do that on average. So I'm I'm looking for it to build business more than I am becoming bestseller. I'm just in my own mind at that divide right now. I'm not sure. I don't have the conviction to go one way or the other. >> Is there anything that we can help you with as you figure out how to proceed? >> Well, Kate, you went to Forbes and that's a well-known name. >> Mhm. >> Kind of a marquee, if you will. >> Yeah. >> Um, there are so many other people out there that say, "This is what you need to do, and I don't have the confidence to make a what I'll call an informed decision because I've never done this before." So, my first tip in the water would probably be following what Dave said and following that whole Amazon route because I'm not looking for it for income. Um, but on the other hand, I'm looking at it though and saying, "What doors will this open for me that I could take advantage of?" So, I want it to be a door opener in multiple ways. And I'm I guess I guess I've learned in my business the best clients that I have I get from referrals from other people. So, I want to talk to other people who have done it, such as the two of you. And Kate and Dave, thank you for your inputs. I want to be able to talk to you because you've done it. You've been down there and, you know, you're the guide. And, uh, that's what I need to be able to get an informed decision. I think, >> you know, a book like this could very well be a good money maker for you. You just have to figure out who you could sell it to in volume. So, for example, helping someone get their business ready to sell would be something that might be interesting to a business broker trying to develop a pipeline of potential listings down the road. >> And so, you know, maybe you can keep selling them by the box full to to people like that. >> There's there really it it it's it's what you want to make of it. >> Dave, um I I'm an editor, so I'm inclined to believe that every writer needs an editor. When you published the book yourself and took it to Amazon and took your word file and put it in, had you written it yourself and then [snorts] submitted it to someone else to help you, to review it, to give you [clears throat] feedback, or did you just do it all completely yourself? >> I had a series of editors that uh helped me over the course of time. Uh, one of them was my good buddy Aaron, who is the editor of our university newspaper, right? and who really doesn't know a whole lot about business or acquisition. So, it was great because he was uh from outside of the of the space. So, when he pointed out that things weren't clear or he didn't understand what I was talking about, it it made for some really great edits that I thought improved a couple of the books quite tremendously. And then as my online audience grew, I actually had people who would send me messages saying, "Hey, if you want an editor for your next book, I'd be more than happy to help out." And so a couple of the more recent books have been sort of help have been edited in that fashion. So and I think it's been a very helpful part of the process. >> What I did for editing honestly I used AI. I wrote the book and then I fed it into Claude and then I fed it into um Chat CPT and uh asked them to be the editors and come back with um advice, instructions and things like that. I can't compare it against a human because I didn't have a human actually edit it, but it gave me excellent feedback. >> Kate, did you use AI at all in your process? >> Nope. No, [laughter] I I use I use uh AI quite a bit throughout my my workflow of my day. But there was one point that I did try to use it and you know more for for kind of just restructuring my my thoughts and it was it was junk. >> We're just about out of time. One last question, Kate. I know from uh following you on LinkedIn that you managed to get your book on a billboard [laughter] uh your your book and your face on a billboard in Time Square. Was that part of the $200,000 fee or how did that happen? That was that was a little nice little add-on gift that they gave me. >> They just did that for you. >> Yeah, it's a little bit of a a story. Uh they they lost my audio recording and uh they felt really bad about it. >> The one that you'd worked really hard on creating. >> Uhhuh. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It was a pretty big oops. Um and to be honest with you, like I I got my royalty statement. I'm pretty sure it didn't help my book uh sales, but I will tell you my ego through the roof. >> You don't think the billboard uh had an impact on sales? >> I don't think so. No, I not not from what I'm really seeing. I I mean there was a big uptick, but uh they were doing a big promotion on the on the ebook um the Kindle version. So, I think that was just more again more organic growth. >> I I think the point is to get your your photo taken in front of it, isn't it? >> Yeah. to to frame and put on the wall. >> There you go. There you [laughter] go. As you drink that martini in the beach. >> You got it. >> All right. My thanks to David Barnett, Kate Morgan, and Ted Wolf. Uh, really appreciate it, guys. Thanks for sharing. One thing before you go, everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs [music] to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. [music] You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd, or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. [music] You can sign up for both by subscribing to the morning report. 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