I’m Not a Real CEO

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week J gz Liz picarazzi and Sarah seagull talk about the inherent conflicts between being an entrepreneur and being a CEO and the different skill sets each Ro requires does it make sense for the same person to do both jobs is being CEO even a full-time job and when does it make sense to replace yourself as CEO Liz says she's thought about it J not so much could I have found somebody 10 15 20 years ago that was a better manager JS sure but it just wasn't worth it why not it's going to cost you $250,000 a year Jay says is it worth paying that plus Liz and Sarah talk about positioning a company to be acquired and Sarah proposes a PR campaign for Liz's package bins right on the spot even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations brought to you by our principal sponsor the great game of business will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which in magazine named the best newsletter for business owners and which you can subscribe to for free at 21h hats.com where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Liz picarazzi who is CEO of City bin which is based in Brooklyn New York and makes trash enclosures and package bins Sarah seagull who's founder and CEO of seal Communications a public relations firm based in San Francisco and Jay gos CEO of the gos group whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home the episode is titled I'm not a real CEO welcome Jay Liz and Sarah I appreciate you taking the time to be here I want to start today with a blog post that Jason freed the founder and CEO of 37 signals also known as base camp recently published in it Jason who who's been a guest on this podcast made some interesting assertions one is that you really can't be both a CEO and a Founder why not he asked these are his words because a Founder's job is injecting risk into the business it's flooding it with new ideas stuff that seems hard to do ideas that no one else would dare try placing the kinds of bets that only someone who started the damn thing would be willing to wager a CEO's job just the opposite it's reducing risk executing diligently to achieve obvious goals staying in business at all costs you guys are all CEOs and Founders uh so I'm kind of wondering what you think about this how about you Liz so I found this article incredibly relatable I definitely am more of a found founder even though I'm also the CEO for me the distinction between founder and CEO has only become really apparent in the last couple of years as we've grown because I really like being the founder I like to be the innovator the Creator the one that's injecting risk the one that's making bets the one that's cycling ideas that's my sweet spot that's what I enjoy that's why I am an entrepreneur so the more I'm called upon on to be a CEO and I I'll admit like Jason it's not a full-time job for me to be the CEO I already know that I prefer the former and reading articles like this are actually very helpful because I sometimes feel bad that I'm not a better CEO and it makes me understand why you know the skills and what you bring to it are very different the roles are very different having a real CEO cuz I'll call myself not a real CEO is probably an our near future but I understand myself better by reading that article I guess I'll just put it that way Sarah how about you how did you react well first of all if you're a big enough company to have the luxury of having a founder and a CEO like have at do a division of of labor but most small companies you are as the name of your podcast you're wearing 21 hats you're CEO your CFO you're founder you're the person that takes the garbage out at the end of the week like you do it all so I also think of it as like saying that somebody is only left brain or right brain you know I ask that question a lot when I interview people for jobs I'm like well do you consider yourself a creative or somebody who's more like an analytical thinker more scientific Etc and most everybody sees themselves as kind of a mesh between the two but I think you can be founder and CEO I think that if you're a founder and you don't have some CEO ities you're going to fail before you start because you can't just always throw caution to the wind you have to like if you have staff you have to make payroll you can't you know buy that fancy new office that you want to buy just because you think it will be better op optics for your clients like you have to have some of those qualities even if you are a a a reckless Enthusiast founder like you still have to have that but as a CEO you also have to take a amount of risk like do want to get a small business loan so I can invest in my company where am I going to spend that money there's a risk of taking out a loan especially as a small business owner because usually it's not just based on your business it's based on your personal credit and the collateral that you put up exactly so it's like I agree in the statement but I don't think it's applicable to every business because of their their size essentially Jay I just sense that you got something to say about this I would say this Jason Fred's a very smart guy and he's been very successful and that's his opinion but I think it's a false choice I understand I fully agree with both Liz and Sarah it's it can be a struggle and I certainly and I I really would replace the word founder with entrepreneur I think that's more accurate I think you both mean the very much the same thing yes yes I'm just saying I've I've said many times I'm 80% entrepreneur and 20% manager and can it be a struggle yes but to suggest that the two of them are complete Polar Opposites I'll just say from my perspective it's just ridiculous to suggest that oh you've got to be conservative and your number one thing should be not going out yeah I do think that should be your number one thing so that means that entrepreneurs shouldn't worry about putting themselves out of business there's somewhere between just being that Reckless do whatever you want and bet the farm thing and not taking any chances I those that's a false choice you can be a CEO and still take chances do I not take chances that could put me out of business yeah I'm crazy like that I don't really want to put myself out of business you know I opened up the store in New York I did a popup I did it for seven months knowing if it didn't work out I wasn't going to be stuck with a you know $500,000 year lease or something so I I I believe it's a false choice I believe you can do both the tone of that his comments are like the founder entrepreneurs just go and do crazy stuff and it might put them out of business and then the CEO can't do anything that's not conservative it's just a ridiculous summary of it I I live in that world I take chances all the time but yes I am cognizant that I shouldn't go bet the ranch because why would I do that at this point I got 130 people that make their living here why in the world would I want to bet the ranch to go ahead and grow it anymore so I don't even know if struggles is or Wayward is it something you have to like you know get a handle on is it something that maybe somebody be better off being the CEO sure so I fully agree with everything both Sarah and Liz said but I don't think it's one or the other and I absolutely do not agree that oh you can't both be the founder entrepreneur and the CEO at the same time that that's just it's about taking calculated risk right right that's the mesh of the two like yes you can take risk but it has to be thoughtful and you have to know what the consequences and you have to have an out doing a popup is a great example for a retail on company you test the market before you dive in head first um I think even a founder or an entrepreneur or do that I mean he's suggesting that if you don't stay wild and crazy and take wild risks that you're not going to be successful that's just ridiculous I maybe in his world it is I'm not even maybe in his world what he said is accurate but there's millions of companies out there that have managed to transition from being a startup entrepreneur to running the company and is it maybe hard for some people sure I I get it it's it's it's it's a different skill set but um I absolutely don't think that you know it's one or the other and I'm living proof of I'm still very entrepreneurial have I toned it down over the years yeah because I got the business big enough now I just I need more money less than I need more risk so have I gotten more conservative yeah absolutely but I certainly haven't become conservative to where I just don't take any risks me and everyone else out there not just me every other business that's out there is in this is in a similar situation what do you thinking of when you say that you still take risks well at this point I'm here's my new word it's not about balance that's about alignment I don't need to grow the business a lot more I just I I just I want to grow organically I'm not opening more stores why would I open another store it's more people more Expos I don't need to right but you said you you are still taking risk I take risk with advertising I take risk with I certainly still borrow money I take risk with trying new product lines and doing stuff so it's not like I'm petrified of taking any risk I just don't need to take the risk anymore because I got the business big enough that I'm making a really good living and everybody's happy and this is where I say it's not the income it's the outcome I don't just need I got out of the Fast Lane now I'm in the medium Lane I don't need to do it anymore I got it big enough I my company and I'm not exaggerating my company is 50 times bigger than I ever thought it would be I never had any grand plan for what it turned into I'm surprised myself as to how big it got it's big enough there was such a thing it's big enough I'm happy that's really interesting like because I I went to to um an event with a staffer that we had and she looked at me um afterward weing drinks and she's like what is your grand plan for your business what do you like where do you see the company in five 10 years or whatever and I'm curious Jay it sounds like you never had that grand plan no Liz do you have that grand plan no so I don't either so I'm saying to you Sarah let's say you get the business up to and I assume in PR World a $6 million business would be a nice size PR firm I assume yeah that'd be nice size okay so you wake up one day and you got a $6 million PR firm you got happy people you got happy customers you got happy employees you're making a lot of money there's nothing you can't buy you can't buy within reason you might say yeah I don't think I need to push it like I used to because what's the point well I do live in San Francisco okay 10 million then so then say 10 million but at some point you have to wake up one day and go why am I doing this and like why would I want more exposure it's all fine I what I just said to you I wouldn't have said 10 years ago no way yeah it's not about the money it's it's more about the Legacy like I would like the company to live on on Beyond me that's kind of my goal is that I feel like I've created a company with a good vibe a good purpose a place people like to work people stay that like promotes education and and does great work for its clients and and I would like someone to want to continue that purpose it's not about you know another paycheck another paycheck so I'd rather reinvest that money into building something that can live on in propertuity which I think is great and I certainly want to do that the only line I would draw is in my case I'm going to try to do that but I am not going to hook my happiness wagon to that because if I can't pull it off for whatever reason gave it a shot am not going to make myself crazy trying to figure out I'm doing everything I can to do that but um I think we have enough responsibility when we're alive to do it than worrying about when we're dead what's going to happen I just don't want to hang that on anybody and you know and I know companies do and I I I'm not buying into that I'd like to go back to something Liz said uh before Liz I'm I'm curious having heard what Jay just said about how one person can embody both roles does that affect your thinking at all in terms of what you said about being a real CEO and thinking that your business might need one well I would say that because I am still a good CEO maybe not a great one it does temper my um more impulsive tendencies as a Founder why do you say you're a good one not a great one just to clarify that I think that I just the structure of being a CEO and the focus more on execution is just not not it's not my strength I'm more much more creative I like working in the area of new ideas I'll Implement them for a while but then I'll be really eager to pass it off and move on to the next do you think somebody else could do a better job than you for real I honestly I have to say I do I that thought crosses my mind quite quite a bit I have an answer to that how about this because this is what I've lived in yes you could absolutely find someone better it wouldn't be worth the money it would suck the profit out of the company so like could you go hire someone who's super smart there would be a great yeah sure it's going to cost you $250,000 a year is it worth paying that no because you're doing it good enough I mean that's the world I could I have found somebody 10 15 20 years ago that was a better manager and more sure but it just wasn't worth it so and I would say in your case you're still very young you haven't been doing it that long the reason you're not a quote unquote great CEO is you're still in training I mean it takes years to figure it out most CEOs are if they're not in the computer industry most CEOs are you know 50 60 years old because it takes 20 30 years to get all the skill set you need to do it properly and there's one other factor which is you did bring in someone who kind of complements your skills that someone happens to be your husband yeah absolutely so I have been able to spend more time as founder since he came in as coo and I mean that has been helpful in not only like filling gaps but in just strategically having being able to talk to him about literally everything in the business and being able to get input that is based on like his knowledge and what he's doing handson but also that he's going to have the right motivation on decisions because we own the company together so you know that really was a big relief I do sometimes worry about what would have happened had he not come in and we grew as we did because just everything with operation before he came in were not very good I can tell you you would have found somebody who would have worked out fine and just because they're not your husband doesn't mean I've got 20 people that care about what we do every day they don't need to be my relative to care a lot so you would found somebody maybe not as good but you would have found somebody that's the answer I mean you didn't need to because he was there and that's good yeah Jay I want to go back to to you on one point you have made that point here before about being 80% entrepreneur and 20% manager I don't I've never really bought that um I think anybody who listens to this podcast has heard that you're very thoughtful about management issues you know okay I can clarify that no no I I'll tell you what it is because there is something there you're right I think I have good management skills I think my weak spot that I have to continually work on is paying attention to looking at reports and I I just I have to discipline myself to sit down and play manager and look at the reports and follow up and have me I I that's not my skill set so yes you're right I've got some good skills in it but my head is usually thinking about look at I'm doing the podcast today should I be doing the podcast today or should I be going through my inventory and figuring out what we need to get rid of I mean I I you know I get distracted easily and I like this is really the issue I like the entrepreneurship side I like figuring stuff out I like building new things and I have to discipline myself to go okay you built enough new stuff pay attention to your inventory problem it's a constant struggle it is that's where the 8020 comes in so maybe it's 5050 yeah you're right it's it's not 8020 it's probably 5050 so do you worry about finding your job less rewarding as you go on and the need for you to focus more on management unless an entrepreneurship continues no I gotta tell you what's interesting lately I just turned 67 my friends are between 65 and 72 and the ones that are quote unquote professional doctors lawyers stock Brokers they got some real is dentists pretty hard you know dentist is physically demanding I am thrilled that I own a business because there's nothing about my job that quote unquote that's like a problem like those guys are retiring because they don't want to deal with it anymore and I I respect and understand that the pressure of having the client calling you the pressure of being a dentist the pressure of being a doctor dealing with hospitals they at some point go yeah I don't want to deal with this anymore I don't have anything in my life going to work that I think oh my god I've had enough of that I come to work no one's looking for me my life is 180 degrees from where it was 30 years ago there's no Post-it notes there's no phone messages there's no oh J I got to talk to you if I didn't show up for two days most people wouldn't even notice it um so I managed to pull that off without getting bored yeah no I don't yeah I find look at I'm doing the podcast why do you think I do the podcast I I like doing the podcast I'm doing what I want to do I appreciate that no I do I like I like talking business I that's my hobby yeah I've got nothing that's going to make me think oh no you can't do this much longer the last thing on this B post that I want to mention is Jason freed also says that being a CEO really is a part-time job let me quote him there simply aren't that many big picture things or decisions to execute day in and day out or even week in and week out to make it a true full-time job a roll yes a hat to wear yes a full-time job at a smallish company no it's part-time at best quarter time even better any thoughts on that anybody okay maybe maybe I you know what if you said Jay you can only work 20 hours a week yeah sure I might agree with them on that part if you've got the right people in place you're overseeing you're not managing that the I I could go with that part it maybe it isn't a full-time job Sarah yeah no I can agree like if you're already set up if you're set up and you have the wheels um turning and the gears are are clicking into place in the right place yeah yeah it should just be on autopilot and your decision- making should be you know relatively minimal and youed should be spending your time in you know selling and being a representative of the company for sure or doing a podcast or doing a podcast yeah Liz how about you does that part-time job thing make sense to you it does it does I sometimes think if we as I sometimes want to double triple quadruple as we grow that when I think I'm really not going to be a good CEO and I probably wouldn't enjoy that job I'd like to be alongside of it but growing a fast growing company as that CEO I don't know I don't I don't think I would like that what I'm telling you is if you have the right key people in place there's just it's not a problem they're you know I always say they don't take a bullet for me but they take the for me like they're doing everything here's part of the key though you got to be big enough to pay enough if your business gets big enough where you can start to pay some six figure salaries you're going to get some very responsible smart people they can take that off off your responsibility so you're not big enough to be to be at that point yet if you had a few other more senior people there I'm telling you your life would be much easier but you're not there yet you're growing into it all right I wanted to talk about something Liz that you've brought up previously on the show which is um your your thoughts about developing strategic Partnerships with with other companies have you had made any progress with that yeah there's a couple of areas for the business that are really you know interesting and I'm really engaged with where like talking to a potential vendor starts to sound not like I'm buying let's say a piece of Hardware from them but rather there could be some sort of a partnership which then in my mind goes into potential acquisition like 10 10 years down the line and so I'm noticing in various places you know one of them is having to do with components for our bins but another one is we've had a lot of requests to put advertising on the bins so I'm starting to learn about advertising on public fixtures so you know looking at how bus stops have ads on them or benches or other types of trash receptacles and so for that too it's like okay I'm talking to a couple companies on this and it re I feel like is this a sort of a transaction where I'm enabling my customers to purchase their via advertising and is that something where it's kind of transactional or partnership but the exciting thing is that I do see that some of the companies that I'm talking to could take us into a place that we wouldn't have even thought we were in a couple of years ago like I wouldn't have anticipated putting ads on the bins working suddenly with media companies and with Brands you know so that that sort of partnership I'm really excited about but it also I guess I say I'm in a place of learning a lot now and I really like being in that place but I I feel like how much can I learn and figure this out before I actually make a move so it's almost like I'm sniffing and me and these other companies are kind of sniffing each other out and I do get attached to what could that partnership look like and I need to remind myself like it can it can proceed more organically my only comment with that is that all sounds great whatever you do I can't emphasize enough I'd make sure that there's an out because you just don't know what's going to happen and I whatever deal you cut I would make sure there's some honeymoon period that if you wake up and go yikes this isn't going like I thought you can get out of it because who needs to screw their business up one of the goals of the CEO should be to never get in a lawsuit trust me I mean there's no winning in it uh and I don't think that should be a problem I think you should be able to put together some kind of deal that you have an out after whatever 12 months or something cuz needs to get locked into something that's not working yeah Sarah how did you end up uh being acquired oh have I not told that story I think you have but I'm curious did the relationship start the way Liz is describing with you looking to work together with someone and then it Advanced to an actual acquisition or did it just was it an acquisition right from the beginning of the discussion I answer that question I'm just going to tell Liz that I was in New York um last week and and looking all over the city for her bins so delighted when I saw one and then um what was interesting to me is when I took the Metro this time um the Metro cards which used to be bright yellow now have advertising all over them and so that was just I thought made me think of that when you were describing your opportunity absolutely you know it's the old park bench put an ad on it I think every relationship starts in a different way my relationship with the the the person that coordinated the the acquisition was more a mentor he and his business partner had started a crisis Communications agency two years prior to to me starting mine so I had uh I went to an event and heard him speak about his experience having worked for a larger company doing crisis and I literally cornered him and was like hey you just started your agency 2 years ago can you tell me everything so I don't make the mistakes that you make and so that's how that relationship started and you know every once in a while I'd pay him for advice and he'd very generously give give the give us advice um and then when my business partner decided to go inhouse um with a a growing company for an awesome opportunity that she's still with and loves he looked at us and said okay well you're a little less expensive because you only have one member of your leadership we've always wanted to expand our general PR our stuff let's start talking so there the relationship was really organic to Jay's point there did come a time when you found an out is that something you thought about while you were developing the relationship did you discuss it all ways that you could reverse it sounds like no no if you're going in with an out it means that you're not convinced that it's going to work right like and I was convinced that this was going to work and it was going to be great and so if I had that like okay I got to have an out I probably wouldn't have done it in the first place wait this is a false Choice I'm not saying you needed an out but the fact of the matter is you didn't sign a 40-page contract that said they own you for 10 years and and I don't know that you would have signed that that's my point it's not that you had to look for an out but there was no commitment you had to make that made you think oh wait a second what am I getting into I can never right you didn't there was no big legal paperwork well I had to dissolve my LLC right but that's no big deal you start a new one I mean that's that's a no-brainer I'm there was nothing you did that was like you had to wake up and go oh wait a second I can never get out of this you can't say it's no big deal but like basically this year January when we became unacquired I literally had to start the whole business from scratch and that is a big deal so you were able to do it but it it wasn't easy yeah no I mean no no no but but the the the decision to to part ways was amicable and easy and really supportive to be perfectly honest like it just didn't result and what we wanted it to result it they they even like I wasn't able to set up health care for my employees in time to start January 1st so um my old acquired company covered insurance for us I'm paying them back of course for us through January until ours kicked into into place like they did a lot of stuffff like I was super lucky on our departure because it was like yeah let's let's let's uh let's call it a day it it didn't work out how we hoped it had worked out um and I think that was a universal thought across the board and I assume looking back there was no way you could have predicted what happened you needed to try it out and it right I mean in hindsight do you feel like oh I should have known better yeah but you know so I coach a sport I never go into the game going oh there's a possib ility we can lose I go into the game saying we're going to win this we're going to bring home the trophy we're going to do awesome and that's how I need to go in um to what I do in business like I go into working with clients of like we're going to do really good work from this just how I am I see things in a positive way like I have to otherwise I know in my gut it's not the right fit listen I think the same way the difference was when I signed the lease in New York 20 years ago I might have been dumb enough to go sign a 5-year lease and it could have put me out of business so I fully agree I I thought it was going to work I didn't figure well if it doesn't work well I I plan it always working but I'm just suggesting that you might want to make sure whatever you do that there is no down the road if anything goes wrong that you have just basically put a time bomb in your business that blows up like oh no you can't leave that's what lawyers are for um and which are really expensive I got our first bill from our contract lawyer um for reviewing this lengthy contract and literally almost fell off my chair but I want Jay is that really what lawyers are for do you expect that kind of advice from Muller no lawyers make a living going to court and I'm suggesting counting on lawyers to get you out of trouble is a very dangerous thing because the whole thing well we'll sue them if you've ever been in any way shape or form in a lawsuit you realize this is not I was just in one little thing years ago and I was suing them and when I saw what you doing a lawsuit with dep I realized the guy paid me real quick to get out of it but thinking the legal process is going to solve your problem is extremely naive I don't think Sarah's saying that she's planning on going to court over it she's saying that she expects help from her lawyers in setting up a contract and an arrangement that gives her the protection she needs am I right about that Sarah yeah I like make sure that you have you know um expectations that are are outlined in in that if we go into a relationship these 10 things are going to be delivered as part of the relationship from from the partnership and if those don't happen then you know we can call it quits that's what you want I would worry that you're hoping that your lawyers think like business owners and go beyond just looking at the legal language and think about other ways to protect you and I'm wondering if you can count on that I think it depends on the attorney I think it depends on your relationship with the attorney and how you as a business owner and that's on you as a business owner to say Hey listen I'm going into this possible deal with this and I just want protections if it goes a like you know whether or not it's uh an ability to cancel things or get reimbursed for it like even our regular client contracts like they can't just on a Tuesday whim say we're not going to work with you anymore they have to give us a certain number of days out and the reason we do that is because we staff up for clients depending on how sizable their work is and if they on a Tuesday decide oh we don't want to work with you anymore or my favorite lately is we ran out of money ouch yeah what am I what am I doing because I still have to pay my employees and I I don't hire and fire people fe's a good example of what I'm talking about though so they run out of money and they don't pay you and you say well you have to pay me well then you've got to take them to court to get paid and it's extremely expensive to do that and if they don't have any money you're probably not getting any money so I'm just suggesting just because one has good legal protection quote unquote doesn't mean that you're not going to still have a big problem because going to court is extremely expensive I just had someone rip off some stuff my website and I hired the lawyer and he went after him and he took it down but if I wanted to go and actually fight the couple of pieces left about oh you copied my it would be tens of thousands of dollars so it's yeah it's not worth it well I got to point out that we started talking about Partnerships and we've been now talking about legal and lawyers for about 10 minutes which is part of the reason why I've always been a little bit hesitant about Partnerships and um I've got a few really good conversations going on right now and through talking with you guys you know I want to have some sort of a project with each of these potential Partners so one of them is related to design one of them is related to advertising one of them is related to hard where where there's no big like lawyers involved it just look we're going to install these bins in X City and you're going to provide XYZ let's see how this works and if it works well we can do it in another city instead of you know if you would ask me a couple days ago the way I was thinking about this it really would have been like some sort of huge strategic partnership and we're going to be working together on all of these big initiatives and I thought you know what you're just getting ahead of yourself let's see if we even like working together let's see if they want to work with us because the reason why I see them as potential Partners is that I actually think we would match really well working together on some of these things there's clearly synergies out there that they got the car you got the gas and it's a beautiful thing and it works uh you just want to make sure that you can't always see what's coming down the road and you make sure you don't wake up one day go oh my God because I'm telling you the answer to oh I've got a good contract I'll sue them yeah that's that's probably not an easy thing to pull off well that's the that's the entrepreneur in you I mean like I assume that like if you're doing this test drive with these folks that your your investment is product right yes so how much product are you willing to invest in this well this is with actual clients so already paying clients and this would be augmenting the product with um these add-ons what do you mean by clients these are people who vendors or clients no so like let's say I have a particular City that's bought bins and I decide I want to enhance a lot of the hardware on it and I want to put ads on them I already have the client paying and we're going to be enhancing them with these additional things so I it's not like I'm putting something in and I'm you know somehow losing something on it I'm just enhancing an existing deal by bringing in value added elements at no additional charge to the client okay can you can you break this down a bit so you have a bin you have it with the city you say hey City I'm um and tell me if I skipped skipped over something we're going to put ads on the bins do you say now City you don't have to pay us as much for the bins because we're getting revenue from somebody else so that potentially is what it would be but it is very much testing because we know that most cities are not going to want this we know that some will but we want to make sure that when we lay out City here's your option for getting City bins either you buy them and it's X outright or you have advertising on it and it will pay for itself over time this is an option that we can bring in from y Media company if you are interested so it's almost like at the point of sale we're giving them an option to pay that's different than what they may have thought which is probably going to be more expensive than they have budget for so the partner by adding this ad is enabling a purchase that might not otherwise happen would you do up front in the in the conversation or would you say here's option one which is where you just get full paid out or would you say if they come back to you and say hey we only have this much to spend then you bring in the ad like or do you do you put it on the table to begin with I like the idea of giving them options okay I like calling it a strategic Alliance because the second I hear with partner I get I cringe like they're not investing in your company you're not getting you're it's a strategic Alliance like it works it doesn't work okay to start yeah right I mean just the word partner has a lot of tentacles to it and I would just be you know I don't I think it's a strategic Alliance great try it out see what happens so the last thing I want to address today uh Liz I think I might have a customer for you for one of your package lockers before I tell you who it is bring us up to date on that because you've talked a little bit about how they haven't sold as well and you've been leaning towards focusing more on the trash enclosures What's happen with the the package lockers so I would say the package lockers are you know still probably slightly profitable they have not grown in sales in the last year and the way that we're primarily selling our packaged lockers which is kind of How It's been from the start is with a trash enclosure so it's a combo unit where people have their trash Recycling and package and mail in a modular system that's been a better way to be able to sell them because people are already making the investment in the trash enclosure and they work really well together we do sell Standalone we have two different types of package lockers we have not decommissioned them they're discontinued as we had potentially thought of and as Frank has threatened several times but right now it's like we're not losing any money on it and it works really well people really like them we get great reviews but they're not like in some really great sales Channel right now we're just selling them direct so Jay I think you've been thinking about uh new opportunity check this out oh God you guys have been conspiring yes we've been we've been brainstorming because here's what happened to me last week um I always buy the same soap I like it yardly soap it's nice it's lavender doesn't get mushy so too much information Jay I'm just telling you it doesn't get mushy there's a reason for this so I the store I buy and doesn't carry it anymore so I figured I'll just buy it online I ordered a dozen bars of soap Amazon drops it on the sidewalk on a city sidewalk your soap in a bed you had it wait you had it sent to your business not to your home yeah I always do I always do it's just I don't know I'm here I guess I could have had sent to my home but just go with the story that's not really relevant okay so come to work the bag's just sitting on the sidewalk but someone cut it open with a razor blade oh my God like the thief looked at it and particularly didn't like the show because we're very Discerning and Lincoln Park and even the thieves are very Discerning so I'm thinking maybe there's an opportunity to come up with boxes with like Plex in there and you can show them what's in there if they want it if they don't want it maybe review so that the theves don't have to spend that much time figuring out whether they should take your stuff or not I just found it fascinating that someone would bother to bend down cut it open look yeah I don't want this and I'm a little insulted because it's good soap but that means that if it is something really valuable people will see that and they're going to Target it I I'm just on the brainstorming stage I don't know may you think your soap is more valuable than it really is well perhaps I just I'm I'm just surprised that the thief would Ben over open it and then just not instead of just walking away with it that they are so I'm just thinking there might be a germ of an idea here somewhere I'm leaving it for you to figure out because it's your space We can brainstorm and we're in Chicago my employee had a race out of here out of the office yesterday because um I don't think it was Amazon but some delivery surface left her meal uh you like your those meal kit packages like sitting on the sidewalk um in front of her building San Francisco buildings have usually have like a gate before you get into your entry so like outside the gate just sitting there yep yeah that's like they did to me like they just drop like just drop on the sidewalk and grow on but sent her a picture of that not like thinking maybe this is not a good idea I had the same thing no they do I they sent a picture they hunging out a door knob except it's not my door knob I had no idea where it's like becoming a regular thing now they just like whatever it's like they just throw it out the window and they keep driving and like maybe you'll get it maybe you won't it's it's really remarkable G Liz is there anything you can to help these people you know what you guys just proved why I'm in the package Locker business and that's very validating because people are ordering more and more online there's huge amount of theft I think it's around 70% have had things stolen and then the inconvenience of having to either race home or you know in some cases you may have to like even go to a gas station or 7-Eleven to pick up your packages if you don't want them delivered to your house for fear of being stolen so I think it's a great product it's a good Market I wish I sold a lot more of them but now with this idea maybe I will so Liz this is my PR idea for you you need to commission a survey surveys can cost anywhere between $5 and $110,000 depending on the size of your survey most media outlets need at least a thousand people responding to the survey to ensure that it's you know quantifiable and legitimate data do you put out a survey to um uh Americans between a certain age range per perhaps a specific region you just do like the tri-state area and you say well how many times in the last year have you had a package sto and how many times in the past year have you had a package left in a place that is compromised um it's um being delivered to you in those kind of questions you do a whole survey about that you're going to get back medy awesome numbers you put a press release together detailing out all of that data you push it out to Media you get awesome coverage about your survey oh by the way yeah we also provide package lockers so you don't have to be one of these victims and then your business grows so there you go that's my that's my donation for you today I love it I have a question for you though so there are a couple of competitors that have commissioned such studies and I actually usually reference their stats no don't do that that I credit them I credit the study in like a footnote I wouldn't link to them but um I do think that that can be a really good thing to do I don't know if I would put my money to it though since some of the competitors have already done it but you would have fun with it too like um a lot of people don't have fun with their surveys um this was my my old business partner she she was very good at this like would you rather deal with the delivery of a package on time or go to the dentist and like one of those kind of weird questions where you get these weird answers and people are like well apparently people rather go get root canal than deal with having get a package delivered on time whatever it is um but you can have fun with it and there's an insatiable need just because it's been done before it doesn't mean people won't read the next one true and if you look at their surveys you can see if it's a national survey if it's a national survey and you're really just starting to drive business in the tri-state area right now you just do the tri-state area and then you do thing um where you can and you can say okay let's do Connecticut New Jersey New York um just those three states right and then you're going to compare them and you're going to say people in Connecticut say they are three times less likely than a New Yorker to get a package um media loves that stuff or even towns if you can get that specific right it can be sliced in different ways my thanks to Jay goz Liz picarazzi and Sarah seagull and of course to our sponsor the great game of business which helps businesses use an open book management system to build healthier companies you can learn more at Great game.com thank you everyone wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that's L ren21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you really think he can take it and if you got something out of this convers ation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter subscribe to the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone [Music]