I’m Not Going to Shut the Doors

[Music] hello everyone welcome to what used to be the 21 hats podcast and is now the business Advantage TV podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week we introduce a new member of the podcast team Paul DS whose company Paul Downs cabinet makers makes custom conference tables Paul wrote about how close this company came to failing in both the New York Times you're the boss blog and in his own book Boss Life surviving my own small business that was back during the Great Recession unfortunately Paul's company is once again finding it a challenge to sell high-end conference tables during a crisis especially one that has cleared out offices and sent people working from home my game plan is to stick it out Paul tells us in this episode I'm not going to shut the doors and 2 years from now I may be a smaller company but I'm going to be around and then we're going to ride this back up even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will if nothing else let owners know they are not alone in facing these challenges along with Paul who you will see brings intelligence and transparency to our sessions this week's lineup features Jay goz whose businesses in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home and Dana White who is CEO of paraly Boyd a hair salon in Detroit this episode is titled I'm not going to shut the [Music] doors all right so let's get started uh welcome back Dana and Jay and welcome for the first time uh Paul DS Paul it's it's great to have you here nice to see you Jay and uh Dana I've been following your your journey with uh with great interest and and I think that uh what you've done is is really admirable and I'm really pleased to be a part of this group well we're pleased to have you uh I'd love to start by uh giving our listeners some background about you Paul when I was editing that uh you're the boss blog at the times I got an email from you you told me in that email that you were running a business that was in the process of failing and heading for bankruptcy and you wanted to know if I was interested in having you write about that process first of all why were you failing what was going on I wrote you in December of 2009 uh about a little more than a year after the Great Recession uh struck and to Saturday up um in the fall of 2008 if I had given myself the J goz fivepoint quick business crisis evaluation test Jay he has been listening hasn't he excellent uh I'll go through them how were you doing before the crisis profitable not profitable we were losing money my partner and I in buckets and uh and so zero for that uh what legal obligations did I have to others I had a partner would put a lot of money into the business and expected money back so I score zero for that how is my attitude ready for a fight or exhausted now I scored well on that because I had no intention of going out of business and uh did you or will you lose key employees well I had to lay off half my team in uh I had 23 employees in September of 2009 and went down to 13 in October of 2009 and by the time I wrote to Lauren I was down to six people so yeah we lost a lot of people and then what financial resources that I have available not much and I just knew that uh after 25 years of running my business by myself that uh I was probably unemployable and I did not want to go out and try to start a new career so that's where I was how did you turn it around well I didn't turn turned around the economy turned around the questions that I would use to supplement Jay's test would be one what vast forces are working for and against you and in that case the economy had uh had delivered some punches to an already damaged company uh but it started to pick back up and people started to want my product again and that brings me to the second of my supplemental questions which is what's happening with your customers and we were starting to get people who were interested in buying tables again and uh so it was that more than anything else that brought me out from Death store but I will say that when I started writing for the times it was the first time I had the chance to really air the things that were uh the problems I was encountering and get feedback from someone other than my partner and my partner is a lovely person uh he's passed on unfortunately and when we disagreed about business he never let it get personal and when he started to lose money he he took his lumps but I had really relied on him as being the sole source of information about what we should do next and that was an enormous mistake because he was someone who was 20 years older than me and just had a Viewpoint that wasn't really aligned with what was happening to us so writing for the times I would say was the big turning point in my personal journey and starting to implement some of the suggestions I I received from uh the readers uh and being put in touch with people like Jay and then through them joining uh a business group that I'm still a member of and just starting to learn a lot more about how to be a boss and how to run a business than what I've been able to teach myself how long were you in business business at that point I started the business January 1st 1986 so whatever that would have been 22 years how did you have the energy to keep going the thing about business is you only fail when you shut the doors and until you actually spend that very last dollar and walk away from the building you haven't actually failed yet and so in December of 2009 I could see it coming it was literally weeks away you know I could model out my cash flow how much I had on hand and how much I was spending so I started looking online for information about what happens when a Main Street business fails and found literally nothing and that is why I reached out to Lauren but why did I keep going through that because you know I come to the get up in the morning and do the same thing I'd been doing for 22 years you know until I actually have failed I haven't failed I could be failing you could be fa for a long time I was failing for I would say 24 or the 22 years took me a few years to really dig out of it but I was I wasn't failing quite as fast as as I was succeeding in some other ways yeah I was in I was in this terrible situation but I've been in in bad situations for years and years and years and I just really didn't hadn't hadn't given up yet um so that's that's the answer just hadn't given up yet yeah you haven't failed until you've failed so if you're down to your last dollar and you're getting ready to turn in the keys of your business do you turn in the keys and put the dollar in your pocket or do you hang on to the keys for as long as you can and take that dollar and do something with it that would in turn allow your business to turn around I think that's what I'm hearing you say yeah I would say that that aside from playing offense which is what you may use that Dollar on that there is one critical thing which is just to keep the lights on and because what H you don't know what's about to happen right I and what happened to me in in at on the last day of 2009 is a client placed a nice order and that got me another five weeks and then in that five weeks somebody else placed an order and uh you know it's just like it was if I if I'd walked out then I wouldn't have gotten that phone call and then it would be over but if you can just hang on uh maybe the vast forces that are always at work on everybody may start to go in your favor as opposed to against you did you do everything that you were supposed to do like did you do all the marketing is that what led to the failing or were there some things that you hadn't done that with the new orders coming in gave you an opportunity to grow and save the business well I'll tell you there's always things that I haven't done and I may be I I think I'm going to I'm just going to plant this flag right now in the first 10 minutes of being on this podcast which is I am the worst business person on this podcast and I am not as concerned with uh sacrificing every ounce of my energy and resources to make the business succeed as some others are okay I mean and it's just not who I am and part of the reason for that is that uh I have a family and and particularly at that time I had kids in the house and one of my kids has special needs he's severely autistic so that whatever I put into the business I still have to reserve something to go home and deal with that and then the other thing is in the course of having an autistic child for the last you know he's 26 now you always run across something that you as the parent are encouraged to try and uh it's this miracle cure it's that miracle cure and you get to the point fairly quickly when you realize you just can't do everything you can't do it all some of it is pure quackery and some of it may not be but you just can't do it all you you I I found that I had to to make a choice about how we would treat that situation and how much energy we would put into it and how much my wife and I would try to reserve for my other children and how much I would personally try to reserve for my business and and just try to keep it all in Balance so I'm never going to say there's not something that someone could suggest to me like oh you should try this and they're probably right and it may even work but if I'm not capable of fitting it into my overall life I tend to not do it and uh that that I'm sure means that the business is not as successful as it could have been on the other hand I'm now in year 35 and it could be a lot worse I've seen a lot worse Paul I don't want you to sell yourself short I mean you all the things you said I'm I'm aware of and I know uh about the importance of your family to you uh that's all certainly true but I also know uh having edited your blog post at the New York Times that you threw yourself into understanding the Dynamics of your business in a way you know I've seen few people do whether it was understanding uh the mechanics of Google payperclick or understanding Obamacare when it got uh released you would devote countless hours to uh trying to understand these things and figure out how to make them uh work for your business and I I think it's uh important to to acknowledge that well can I comment on that I'm sorry just quickly first of all I am very interested in understanding the underlying things that happen in my business and I love setting up spreadsheets and following data series and those things are make me feel busy and make me feel smart but don't necessarily make the business any better uh so it's a form of self-indulgence at times because there are definitely things that I could be doing always that would make the business better the second thing is um before I wrote for the times I never wrote for anybody and uh nobody knew who I was and nobody gave cared at all about what I had to say about anything if you hire someone like me to write in the New York Times and suddenly you've got an audience of hundreds of thousands of people and you can by looking into things which are ordinarily hidden bring that in a succinct way to thousands and thousands of business owners who could use that information that's a big incentive to do that extra digging to do that extra work and so a lot of what you saw out of me Lauren was in response to the realization that I had the ability to shine a light on things that large institutions keep hidden from most of us because it's to their benefit so I really enjoyed that role of of uh being the the uh the Every Man's champion and that drove a lot of what I did when I was writing well well there's another aspect of it you you referred to your partner it was a difficult uh relationship and you went from having an older person who you trusted to guide most of the business decisions while you were making beautiful tables to taking full responsibility for for the business and uh I'm I'm curious Looking Back Now how you think that affected uh the the turnaround of your business well it had a big effect on it because I took responsibility for things that decisions mostly that uh I had been assuming were not my you know it wasn't it was my skin in the game but it wasn't my I just didn't know enough to feel like I owned a decision but then once my partner and I came to the point where we couldn't agree on how to operate the company and this was in late 2008 um I like well okay I'm just going to do I'm just going to do what I need to do and and so knowing that I wasn't tied down by our agreement to agree on what we were doing anymore that that put me in a different position and I had been in that position prior to to getting a partner in 2002 but the world of of uh and Jay you lived through this you you started business at age I was age 22 this was 1986 uh there's no internet there's nothing you know nothing I had never worked for anybody and I just you know like I run on self-confidence basically and but tied to extreme ignorance for most of my time prior to having a partner I had no idea what I was doing and and no way to find out and there just it's just like it was a completely different world so uh all of that experience didn't really help in the newer world and it was starting to write for the times and realize wait now we can make connections now you can reach out to people for free instantly or you can hear the benefit of their thoughts or you can meet people and and share information and share experiences it's just a way different world now and so that uh that had a big effect on on my willingness to assume responsibility we both started at 22 and the difference is you are extremely self-aware you've always been extremely self-aware that's why I love you you really think about things you you you process things so the question is who was in a worst spot me who never had any partner but and I had to figure it out but I also didn't have any false you had a partner that because he was 20 years old you you assumed he knew how to run a business and you followed that I didn't have that and that's an interesting parallel because we both have the same thing in common I started at 22 you started at 22 and we were thrown into this business world that is far more complicated than it appears well I think that that you may I mean I don't know but maybe you had other connections into your community that were helpful to you uh no I didn't I really didn't synagogue or no absolutely not nothing no you did no Jay you did you had a you had a uncle who had a DI who had a dime no no that's my father and my your father they ran it was my uncle and my father but they had one employee and um I learned how to give customer service I learned that it's all about the customer but beyond that I could literally tell you the day that my father called me I will tell you the day my father called me I was growing really fast keep in mind my father's store was my aunt my uncle my mother my father my grandparents and Edna one employee for my whole life and until my grandparents passed on so that was my whole exposure to business I don't even know what the business did it probably did all of $150,000 a year so that was my perspective take care of customers I didn't know any different my father called me probably I was probably 3234 hey how's it going there and I said to him yeah I just H the fire as Lauren knows I wrote about this I went through 10 production managers over a period of three years so I just fired one more production manager except this time he had a wife and kid and he was younger and I was really kind of torn up on it I knew we had to go but so my father calls me and I said you know I had to fire the production manager I kind of feel bad and my father gave me one of his one of his lines he was like a Jude box You' hit the button in one of his line he you know what the problem today is people want a job but they don't want to work and I said yeah Dad that's it and ever since that day I never asked him anything anymore because I realized he was way out of his depth and there was there was nothing I couldn't talk to him about about finances I couldn't talk to him about marketing I couldn't talk to him about management he gave me a couple of tips along the way like the officers don't eat with the enlisted men you know he was in World War II um and there was a few little quips I would say but beyond that I really didn't have anybody to talk to so in the time we have left let's jump ahead it's been more than 10 years since you dealt with that crisis Paul we are now in the middle uh of another one as you well know tell us how is your business coping with uh the the pandemic and the economic crisis uh getting back to the fivepoint test I'd score a five on February 29th of uh 2020 we were coming into it profitable and uh I no longer had a partner and uh good attitude because we've had good years and I feel like uh I'm much better at running the business than I was and uh have a great set of employees and we had work on hand and we had money and I have money in the bank at home and you know mortgage paid off and all that so in good in good shape going into it and we've weathered it up till today quite well we we had to shut down and like March because the state ordered us to shut down uh and we stayed shut till the end of April and I reopened on the day I got my PPP money and we resumed work on a 10we backlog of of orders we had and we lost a lot of money in March and April but we've made it all back up in May and June and uh company's profitable who's buying conference tables right now Paul who are you selling to that's the problem is that the the number of people who are calling us for New orders has dropped by 75% and so I can see the trouble is going to arrive for me most likely in September and through the rest of the year and that I would be fairly surprised if we're able to match our current sales or production Pace next year uh I don't know how far it'll fall because if you think about it a giant conference table isn't necessarily the most covid friendly product you ever could imagine and um but there are a lot of empty buildings going up that people tend to finish projects that have been financed uh we saw that same dynamic in 2019 that the beginning of the year wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been and it was a year a year after the crisis that it really hit us so so that's where we are I'm I'm great right now and I can see see storm clouds on the horizon and uh so I'm a little worried about that how about your competition I mean are there less people doing what you do now there will be and that's my game plan honestly I think that we've explored the idea of pivoting into other products and for many years before I got into conference tables I actually did high-end residential work and I kind of have a horror of going back to that high-end residential work meaning building furniture for residences yes for individual people and you know God bless them my clients were were for the most part all lovely but it's a business that has really changed since the late 80s and 90s because of cheap Imports and people's attitudes towards owning say a dining set are just different and uh the sales process involves a lot of nights and weekends and I just don't have the stomach for it um whereas the corporate and government clients are just way easier to deal with they spend a lot more money because it's not their own personal money and we've been able to build a much more successful business doing that so my my game plan is to stick it out I'm not going to shut the doors and uh we're going to hope this kills the competition and two years from now I may be a smaller company but I'm going to be around and then we're going to ride this back up I have to tell you I looked at your website good for you your website's beautiful you say meaningful stuff on there I love on the contact page you say if it's during business hours we'll get back to you within minutes I mean you you all your copy everything you wrote on there is all meaningful and poignant and authentic and I am confident you will be one of these survivors at the end of this because you're doing a good job period and and your competition is going to run out of steam at some point some of them well thanks Jay I hope the writing's good I did all of it myself so there also a lot of pretty pictures of beautiful tables yeah there are we we've been very fortunate in the the range of people who've approached us and uh the quality of clients who uh who we've been able to work with it's easy to do great work for good clients I would challenge your word fortunate you weren't fortunate you make great products you care you've got a greatl looking website and you earn those customers so you didn't just lucky you earned everyone of those customers I'm going to tell you this story and I'm going to tell it as fast as I can which is how we got into the conference table business and uh this is this happened in 2003 but I made my first conference table just one in 1999 for a local client and uh we put a picture of it up on my very first website in the same year and this is a website that was all about high-end residential Furniture dining tables chairs the thing things we specialized in and uh then there was a section on the site of some other stuff we' done like some church furniture and this and that and here's this this boardroom table in 2003 Google chose that picture out of everything that was on the internet to be the top search result for boardroom table they just did it they just did it one day and and I remember clearly getting a call from a guy in South Dakota and who said heyy I see your bordom table can you make me one of these and I'm in my office I'm like who in the world are you and how how why you know why would you even call me but how did you find me I never even heard of Google and uh three days later I'm on the phone with someone in kishan who's putting up an oil company headquarters and the following week we got sent a set of plans for a Saudi Arabian Prince uh his weekend home in Jetta he needed four tables for each of his wives That's luck okay no no you're wrong you were the best look chose it it was after that was a lot of hard work and thinking about what was going on and figuring out how to do the business but you can't say that that was anything other than lucky because it was I'm not saying there wasn't some luck but you made the best looking table and you got a you got you got you earned it timing was important too timing you know some yeah I was there but by there's there's a a motto inlaid on my desk which I I live by fortune favors a prepared mind this is from Madam cury and Fortune the first word you got to acknowledge it exists there's luck there's luck in this world there's luck when the sperm meets the egg Paul those initial clients you got after the photos I like pretty ideal clients but I'm guessing that's not your typical customer who who is your typical customer these days I should point out that we didn't actually make a sale to any of those people because I didn't really know how to respond but the interesting thing was that the cl the calls kept coming and we generally get at least before March we would get anywhere from 3 to a dozen every day this is for the last whatever it is 17 years now uh our typical client right now is someone who needs a table and it could literally be anybody we do business with people you've heard of and giant organiz ations and billionaires and we do business with little tiny companies and people you would never think need to go custom but our thing is they all call us so let's figure out how to do business with all of them and so we figured out how to have a conversation with anybody and to identify a budget and to try to come up with a solution and so we don't really have a typical client other than there's someone who's not finding what they look for in a catalog how is your uh approach to pricing changed Through The Years Paul well that was actually a very difficult thing to come up with because there's not much information available uh on the pricing of these items you can't you can't find it anywhere on the internet then and very difficult now and so we just came up with some wild guesses for the first 10 years and then eventually I sat down and wrote a very complicated spreadsheet that would allow my sales guys to at least come up with numbers in some systematic way and uh we have since discovered over time that our prices are basically Market acceptable because people bought stuff from us but it's difficult it would be like trying to find pricing on I can't even think what uh like a submarine if you needed to go find a buy a submarine you know what does it cost I don't know it depends on the submarine right and then who's selling them well they don't sell them at the corner store so you're going to have to do some digging and our method is to try to uh shortcircuit people's investigation process by sending them you know by helping them as soon as we can that's why we we call people back within a minute because we don't want them to go anywhere else we just want them to feel like they're getting the information and then that they will stop shopping for other people why is it like pricing a submarine um I understand your tables are custom but isn't the price determined largely by the size of the table uh yes and no uh size materials complexity um that's the basics but within those three parameters a table of a given size could cost X or could cost 100x when did you start thinking about in doing your pricing whether you were charging enough to make a profit I always think about that um the difficulty with with not having uh sort of widely understood prices for things is that you don't really know how your client is going to react to whatever you present to them so I have to constantly battle this fear that my salespeople have that what they're showing is just too expensive and they want to try to cut deal somehow and uh one one of the reasons I wrote the pricing spreadsheet was just to stop that or at least put a a floor on what we would sell things for and then the pricing spreadsheet not only kicks out a number it kicks out a prediction of how long things would take to build on the shop floor and so then we have some standards to tell the people on the shop floor and then we collect data about how long it actually takes them to do stuff and what I found uh over the course of years is that you can set up a rational system system for coming up with a number and a prediction of time and then when you start tracking what actually happens out in the shop the closer you look the more everything just falls apart and that the only way to really consider it is in aggregate by because we have such an inconsistent product it could be this one day and that the other day and they could be very very different and you never repeat yourself and so that what I started looking at was uh instead of trying to to master every little bit of the the equation would be just how do you simplify this what do we need to know at the end of the day and I've broken it down to at the end of the day we need to have revenues we need to ship $360,000 worth of tables every month in order to break even and if we can bait that we can go higher we make money if we go lower we lose money and that's something that I can very easily explain to my team and we can keep track of and we have a lot of data that looks closer than that but that's a simplification and having grown my business from you know from zero up to 4. some million a year now I have a pretty good idea of what the ratios would look like at any given uh Revenue Target so I'm expecting the the business to contract by maybe 40% next year and I have a very good idea of what the Paul Downs cabinet makers that will produce 2.4 million uh in Revenue in 2021 will look like and if we get back to 5 million in revenues I know what that'll look like and so that's the profitability uh calculation for me at this point and there's a lot more to it but it probably isn't really suitable for explanation in a podcast unless we're targeting the need to go to sleep H how much uh of your experience surviving the last crisis uh is informing what you're doing now did you learn things there that you think are helping you prepare to survive this one yeah the the most important lesson was as we were going into the fall of 2008 my partner and I were disagreeing about how we would run the business we were already losing money we knew there was trouble you know without even the the whole economy collaps and we knew we were in trouble and my partner's theory was was that you keep all this information from the employees don't tell them and uh because he was worried that people would quit and uh go start looking for another job and keeping in mind that in the summer of 2008 it was very similar to say the summer of 2019 where uh unemployment was pretty low and uh if you had good people you want to keep them so he said you cannot talk about our problems with the employees I disagreed with that cuz that's just not who I am but you know we were Partners so I didn't and then the day came when I had to lay everybody off and it turned out they already knew something was wrong but they didn't know what it was and and then after that layoff uh I decided that I would not play that game anymore and I told all the people who left that one way or another I will tell you the truth I will answer your questions and I will try to keep you a breast of my my thinking on our situation so that you're never surprised and uh that approach has stood me in good stad ever since then uh I ran into some rough years in times when the economy wasn't doing so badly particularly in 2016 17 and 18 uh my autistic son started living at home with us after being away at school for 10 years and that really had an extreme impact on my ability to work and the company started to fail again and I had to get to a point actually where I had to cut everybody's wages and I told them it was happening as it was happening like here's the problem we're running out of cash sales are not as good as they could be uh I don't want to shut the doors and this is what we're going to do you're all taking a 15% wage cut and I was able to to say and here's what I'm doing I'm taking a 100% wage cut and uh and show them the numbers and show them a p&l and then when things got better bring them back on show them what happened you said you were distracted during that period for for obvious and understandable reasons what was the direct impact of that distraction what what wasn't happening why did the company flounder uh while your mind was elsewhere because companies need a leader and uh my team is very capable but there's no one who is able to do exactly what I do um I just had the experience of driving across Indiana on the IND Turnpike and uh I don't know if you've ever done that it's dead straight for 180 mil Y and you would be tempted to think you could just take your hand off the steering wheel and uh and start reading the paper and you'll be in the ditch almost instantly and running a business is like that even if you've got a very well functioning engine and set of tires and everything's going swimmingly and you're blasting long at 70 M hour if there's nobody on the steering wheel looking all the way to the horizon or the uh accents up ahead then you're in the dish I have a different answer for you it's the size company you running versus My Size company the people you have working there in charge are not capable of steering the ship that's true at your size but when one gets bigger it's not you're not as Hands-On as you are at that point my my my answer to you at that point is you were very Hands-On at that point and you were doing important stuff at the company and it makes sense that if you weren't there it wasn't getting done you get bigger you've got more capable people making more money that have been there and it's not necessarily the same thing I I would agree with that I think that my experience just growing from zero employees to 24 which is what we have today there's huge differences every time you add five employees and that I'm right at the point where I can't have I'm not big enough to have a real layer of professional managers no for sure and that if I got to your size J I would I would be I would have that because I would want that no i' I've been there you're you're still you're the quarter the point is you're the quarterback still you're not the coach you're still the quarterback that's the difference Dana we've talked a little bit about what Paul raised in terms of sharing uh information with employees I'm curious if you have any reaction to uh the way he has shifted his thinking on that no I agree with him it sounds to me is if Paul's team he could walk in and say hey guys I'm gonna cut your salary by 15% um I'm G to take a 100% cut or hey guys we're in a little bit of a financial straight right now um I know businesses that you could not do that and expect to keep your doors open they would literally jump ship immediately and go find someplace else if it just depends on the culture of the industry that you're working in I think that's absolutely right Woodworkers are in general very low drama want to know what they're doing tomorrow and next week and next month kind of people and it sounds like hairdressers are just cut from different cloths so yes also the configuration of the business so if I was uh running an ice cream shack and all my employees were teenagers and I was taking a million bucks a year out of it I wouldn't have those conversations because they would there's no way to make that situation look like we're all We're All in This Together uh in my own situation I make money and it's not an unreasonable lot of money and I pay them as well as they can possibly be paid and everybody just gets that you know that's part of being there Jay we we got to wrap up quickly I don't want to start at uh a long discussion about open book management but I'm curious uh if you have any reaction to What Paul said about sharing information especially during difficult times well I think the naivity of his partner was they can obviously see that they're not making as much Furniture so it's not like they're not talking about it so there's somewhere between total open book management and saying nothing so I believe in tell people how things are going say listen we're in a cash bind I I depends on the business depends on on the sophistication of your employees I I don't think a blanket thing of totally open book management is the way to go I think it depends on the business and the circumstances but certainly communicating with your employees how you're doing and where you're at makes sense because they know about it anyway who you hiding from they they can see the Productions way off so um thinking if you don't talk about it it doesn't exist is silly I mean they know about it so I do believe you have to communicate with your employees well I would actually add one one other point which is if you don't they know about it but they they don't know what what the actual facts are and what I found is that when you don't provide real information people just make stuff up absolutely so they they think they know about it they think they know how much you make you know the boss makes they think they know that if we sold 4 million that means I made 3.5 million and if you don't if you don't give them the real information and some background on it then then you're really fighting a losing battle I suspect we will have more conversations about this um Paul thank you so much for joining us one thing I knew uh from uh my experience working with you previously is that you would be open and uh and transparent share with us and you you have not disappointed so welcome to the team as always thank you Dana and thank you Jay thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us where wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman 21h hats.com see you next time [Music]