I’m Stressed

[Music] hello everyone welcome to what used to be the 21 hats podcast and is now the business Advantage TV podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week's episode contains some awkward and uncomfortable silences normally we might edit out those silences this week I think they're an important part of our conversation an awkward uncomfortable painful and passion conversation that we had on Friday June 5th about what it takes to lead a business in the aftermath of George Floyd murder and the Nationwide protests does every business need to weigh in what do we say to customers what do we tell employees what do we tell black employees Karen Clark Cole CEO of blink a user research and design firm based in Seattle and William Vander bluman CEO of Vander bloomen Search Group a recruiting firm that works with churches and other faith-based organizations start the conversation by talking about how they've struggled to rise to an occasion for which they feel ill prepared but then Dana White who owns Boyd a chain of hair salons that cater primarily to African-American women talks about a very different kind of struggle her struggle not just to build a business but to find a place in a country where she does not always feel welcome I'm stressed Dana tells us I'm stressed Dana suggests that even if it's uncomfortable especially if it's uncomfortable business owners need to take a stand this is not about being comfortable she says as business owners you're either over there or you're over here if you've been listening to this podcast gu you know that we've been tracking the experiences of five business owners through the pandemic along the way we've had some difficult and important conversations but thanks to Dana White this one Rises to another level she delivers a powerful message and if you know someone who might benefit from that message I hope you'll share it the episode is titled I'm [Music] stressed I want to talk about where each of your businesses uh stand what's going on uh with each of them but but we've been through a couple of weeks unlike anything uh I think any of us have ever experienced it it's kind of almost been forgotten uh but I think we're still experiencing a pandemic um and then of course that has been compounded by the murder of George Floyd and the protests that followed as we're recording this on Friday June 5th uh I think we're we've had 11 days of protests that have followed and obviously that's had an impact on all of us uh um and I guess I'd like to start by just asking each of you how you're processing uh these events uh Karen maybe I'll start with you Seattle uh where blink is is based has um has been in the news every night there have been protests there uh what has this been like for for you uh and for Blink it's been hard um it's I it's been a long week for sure um I I don't have all the words and that's that's understandable that's been part of the problem so I can tell you one thing that has struck me uh as an individual and a leader of a company um that has been most um surprising and um difficult is that many of our employees and if you include our contractors were about 140 altogether of people that uh do work for us in five offices so we're not just in Seattle we're around the country um a lot of them are expecting me personally as a you know as the representative of blank to be their voice and I tell you that's not something that I expected I wasn't quite ready for that you know I I spend a lot of time in my life personally having a voice and using it and having a platform certainly with my nonprofit and you know for me it's more of an angle of encouraging girls um but but the idea that now um I'm representing you know how to stop racism and how to have a a fair and just society and you know like a I I just don't feel qualified to to be fighting for justice on behalf of many people um but at the same time I'm um I'm seeing it as my responsibility like it or not and so I'm you know doing my best to rise to the occasion and to really listen carefully as to what people's struggles are in our company and you know of course in the whole country and the whole world we have a company Forum once a month and we used it on Thursday to talk about issues of race and Justice equality and and um I tried to explain to people that it's it's it's incredibly difficult and the responsibility is enormous for me to get it right and and so I was just open and honest with them about how it you know I need their help to get it right and it's we're not going to get it right the first time and and then I asked them to remember that they all have their own voices and they don't need to rely on the company to do that for them and I think a lot of them haven't seen that yet they're young and they don't realize at least this is all I can imagine they don't realize yet that they have their own voice yes you want to work for a company who believes in equality and and mirrors their values and that's really important because that's the only way we're going to get companies to change and therefore parts of society but but I'm encouraging them get out there and use your voice like they all have incredible power that they I don't even know that they see they have I've sort of switched my message to be less about let's figure out how the company can do it right and more about let how do we Empower our 150 people because that's a lot that's a that's a big voice when you put them all together one of the things that I do want to ask all of you about is yeah the notion that you addressed Karen of speaking out as a company saying something and I have to admit I I I personally have mixed feelings uh about that I I certainly get why it's important for companies to especially let their employees know where they stand um but I also I I got an email from Uber and you know what I I I don't really want to hear from Uber about this yeah so Lauren I felt the same way um on Monday when it hit me hard that that was expected and it better be good um and but but I'm all for making a statement so that it because the the resounding response I got from our employees which was you know this is helping me keep on keep on you know like I I want to make sure that I'm and I think about my own self like I want to be in a place that I know values my beliefs and at least at the macro level and and I think uh so so I getting it you we didn't send out an email but I but I you know there's a place where someone can come and find it and I think that's the appropriate place you know we post it on our usual social channels but I but I agree I don't I don't think we should be pushing it into people's faces they can you know for in terms of a company statement how about you William uh you happen to be in Houston which is George Floyd's Hometown um what has this been like uh for you in your business well Lauren I think the way you phrased that question is exactly how I have for right or wrong tried to think through this what's this like for me and then my business and you know for me personally the whole uh convergence of you know a death in Georgia a death in Minnesota a death it it feels different this time to me and has been a personal wakeup call to me and made me uh drop back and realize you know had some really great black friends and a lot of African-American clients mean most most of the large historic African-American churches are our client um but even with all that I think I think I'm realizing this week I thought I get it and I don't at all I got no clue so that's me and then you get to my business our business serves whether it's a Christian school or a Christian nonprofit or a church which is kind of the backbone of the business like the church when it's getting things right has always been at the center of saying no you reach out to the other you don't you there is no there's like like I saw a friend of mine post you know we can we can agree to disagree on almost everything except racism I I so our client base if you want to move past me to the business side really does expect to hear from us and it's it it you mentioned Uber Adrian my wife said why is Lululemon emailing me about race I don't like it seems contrived for us it's not it's it's a summons like we if I don't say something then that is saying something and so for us in our very unusual circumstance um I wanted to wait I didn't want to be presumptuous and and I didn't want to say and look at all the great things we've done and all the wonderful African-American churches or black gospel churches or like we didn't do any of that so I put a statement out yesterday that was just here's where I am now I have an advantage my last name is the name of the company so if I send it out it is the statement right and uh it's early but I spent all day yesterday responding to people asking if they had permission to reprint asking if they could send it to their staff thanking me for admitting that I don't know what I'm doing and that I want to learn well might how did you articulate that what what what did you say in the statement if you can summarize yeah I mean I I said you know for starters I you know I haven't been a a real Christian or faithful person my whole life so there's a chapter in my life where I got called over by the police very regularly and for good reasons but I never ever once feared for my safety you know I've moved into new neighborhoods and I've had people say welcome to the neighborhood but I've never have ever had someone come up me and say do you really belong at this pool um you know I I I go to a restaurant I ask for a table usually I get a decent table sometimes the one I want but I've never had the recurring issue of like why are they putting me back here and you know one of my closest friends uh African-American who whose dad converted to Muslim during the Cat Stevens era so he has a horrible last name and he's black and like I mean it when we go to the airport together I just budget extra time because it's going to take a while and uh that's sad but uh you know those are all things that he's really dealt with and uh I guess I just realized like I don't get it I don't get it and and that's where I started with the piece I moved into you know Mr Floyd's death happened right at Pentecost in the in the church which has Jewish and Christian Roots and I talked a little bit about that and then at the end I just I told a story you know I try I tried to share places where I don't get it like at at the risk of spending two or three minutes I I I lucked out and got to go to the SM sonian uh Museum of African-American history some some time back just on the fly at the end of the day went by myself I've never been in a museum where they don't have to tell people to be quiet except this one because you if you've been there you go you go down the elevator to the basement you start about six floors below the ground and you're on kind of a mocked up sleeve ship and it's it's crowded and it's dark and it the sounds are weird and you make your way up and it's just it's not overdone it's not political it's just real and I remember getting past the Civil War and past slavery thinking okay finally things are going to get better and I got to this segregation floor where you walk through a train car and and right in front of me was this biracial couple young couple with a little daughter couldn't have been more than three four years old maybe five and we were walking through the train car and she looked at her mother and she said Mama where would you have sat and the mother said well I would have sat up here up front with all the white people and she said well where would daddy have sat and she said well Daddy would have sat back there with all the black people and I'm listening to this in the back and I'm like oh my God I'm really hearing this as only a kid could say she said so where would I sit which is a great question and uh the mother said you know baby it would have been illegal for Daddy and me to get married back then so I don't think you'd be here at all and I was just like ah I don't get it and I shared stories like that uh I just tried to share where I am and be transparent and let the chips fall where they will and not because it's right or it's a and I my PR Company said oh you need to start some listening sessions and start a this and that I was like no no that is not the point and I I know I've dominated the time with this answer so I'll I'll be quiet but I'm just trying to share what's going on in my heart and hope that spills out into how the company reacts so Dana obviously um this is different for you than for the rest of us uh I suspect you're not learning things the way we are you're not realizing things that you didn't know this is something you've known all too much about how has this been for you I'm stressed that's certainly understandable I'm stressed I'm stressed even on this call I'm stressed making more stress please don't no I it's I I'm on this call as I am in life the only one and that's not Lauren's fault or it's not that you designed it that way and and I wanted to be on this call because I don't have a choice meaning I can't not be Dana on this call and in this life nor would I want to be as a company peral boy is Waterford Crystal Clear you walk in my salon as you have and it you're Waterford Crystal Clear I have gotten backlash for my my statement I've had advice maybe you shouldn't do that with the pictures on the wall I have I have stood my ground and said no I have created a place for women that look like me to come in and see themselves reflected in every part of that salon and I'm Unapologetic for it and will remain so and all of my locations will do so so if that tells you you're not welcome that's on you we are devastated by what happened to George Floyd but we are not surprised George Floyd is gotten more attention than everybody else because this is what America is we don't have the luxury of of not dealing with it we deal with it every day we don't have the luxury of well you know this isn't the time or the place it's always time have I feared for my life when I've been pulled over yes has a gun been drawn on me because I left my blinker on too long yes have I been followed around the store more times than I care to admit do I have to tolerate the ignorance of people who are well-meaning absolutely I'm stressed you're right William George Floyd is different you're absolutely right silence is compliance as well as convenience is compliance this is not about being comfortable this is about you're either over there or you're over here as business owners you're either over there or you're over here I'm sorry Lauren that Uber sent you something in your inbox that you didn't feel was appropriate space I'm sorry it's in your face don't defend yourself you make a stand you take a stand I've gotten emails too and I'm gonna read you a snippet of one from somebody who is a business owner who drew a line in the sand a snippet says it is gutwrench that these things will need to be that these things still need to be said but now is the time to speak up and make it unquestionably clear black lives matter we stand for love equality and change and we reject all forms of social injustice systematic violence and murder we stand in solidarity with all those working to rid our country of racism and that is just one line he took us stand for his staff for his customers and he's not worried about his Revenue that is a stand so hard for people to say black lives matter they do you either over there or you're over here and if you're uncomfortably and over here ask yourself why I'm stressed I can't tell you how many groups on Facebook that I'm a part of how many people find this so hard to take a stand I'm stressed on this call because I face this call like I face the world knowing that I am on here alone it's no time to be comfortable was George Floyd comfortable he wasn't comfortable no a line and I'm very passionate about it and if I'm making you uncomfortable so be it this is my truth and I matter as a business owner I say what I say because I have over 19 young black women looking at me and black men as a business owner you have customers you have staff that are looking at you and it's okay that you don't know but you let them know you're figuring it out it is your responsibility as a leader and yes it's heavy yes it's supposed to be but you carry the best way you can you Empower their voices but as the leader of that company yours is the loudest heavy is your crown and you stand for your customers and for their staffs because we're all looking right now we're looking to see I'm getting tons of text messages and emails did you see they said nothing did you see what they said and we are making decisions that's how it's different for us we are deciding who we deal with and how we deal with them because when faced with it what did they do how did they do it there's no judgment you all have done what you feel best as I have done and I'm saying what I feel best answer to your question again Lauren I'm stressed because I face this call as I do the world as a black woman I'm done well let me just say I checked with you beforehand to make sure that you knew I was going to raise this and that you were okay absolutely with my doing that and I did that knowing that you would be you that you would tell us what you really thought I'm smiling at you right now I'm smiling at you you can't see me I'm was smiling at you and Dana I want to thank you well that's where I I was just going to finish the thought that I think Karen wants to express as well which is I think you've shown us a certain amount of respect actually by saying what you really believe and we wouldn't want anything else agreed yeah I said yes when you called me I thought of not being on this call because I'm tired and I'm stressed but I thought about it and I control how I'm on this call I'm not on here what would have stressed me out is to make you all comfortable people ask data what should I do you know and I told my friends go figure it out and even as business owners even in business whether you're making a decision as to how to to to deal with race if you're making a decision on how to grow your company or making a decision on what paper to put in your printer you might make a mistake but you pivot and you move on don't be afraid to make a mistake in this just in other every aspect of your business is this big yes should you get some counsel if you can but don't be afraid to make a mistake and be honest about who you are you know what I've talked to a business owner who's like you know what honestly it I I just don't care enough about black lives to do or say anything okay I don't agree but that's his stance he's wrong let me ask you Dana with regard to the messages that have been sent out by corporations my concern has been that some have just seemed insincere are you saying that it's better to send to to address it in any way that you can than not to address it at all is is that the point that you're making kind of and it's hard because you know for some people it's enough for others it's not right but I'm I agree with you some of it is you know let's just get something out you know this this this pacifying plating thing that is done you know George Floyd's murderer didn't get arrested because they thought he was wrong they did it to pafy us that's and that's the same thing some of these companies aren't putting things up because they think it's wrong they're doing it because well we don't want to see be seen as how many of these businesses are actually looking at who they are as companies who we are as people as As Leaders so you're right they did some of them I read and I was like okay I mean they put up something I guess and for some people who read it it's enough but I haven't seen anything as powerful as what I've seen in the snippet that I read to you that is like oh he's water for crystal clear it's amazing how are your employees doing Dana from what I understand they're you know same you know same thing different day but will he get con but will they get convicted probably not lesser charge get a slap on the wrist that's what we're waiting for what we know we're waiting for what we know they're hurt they're upset they're tired but this is America we know where we live we know where we are and we know what this country thinks of us the people who look like us and it was I think what made the George Floyd murder different for us was the officer look in the camera every time I every time I talk to somebody is how he looked in the camera as if he knew he could do it so my employees are you know shrug shoulders hurt upset tears but we'll see this is America Dana I listened to Al Sharpton's eulogy yesterday and I found it very moving I think he in some ways made some points that that you've made to us he also said that he thinks this time is different that he's more hopeful this time that he sees signs that there might be change now did you hear that do you feel that I didn't hear the eulogy I don't know why I missed the eulogy yesterday but um the thing that makes this time different uh I love seeing the diversity in the protest that's exactly what he mentioned okay yeah I didn't see it but I love seeing the diversity in the protest test I think it makes it different going forward I think we are years and years and years away of it not being okay that it's never done again news flash there will be somebody else there will be another George Floyd there's there's that George Floyd was not the last black man to die unnecessarily at the hands of white cops this is not the last one the change I see is the seed for the change to come not to change what is needed now no no and I'm hopeful but it's not it's not this is the seed planted right and this is the seed that'll take root but it still needs to grow still needs to Blossom still needs to bloom still needs to be fertilized and watered but George Florida unfortunately and I pray I'm wrong oh that would be beautiful if I was wrong oh I would love if George Floyd was the last one but I don't this is America I'm watching the protesters I'm watching the police he won't be the last one racism is who we are it's in our fabric built on it and unfortunately in my humble opinion in my regretful opinion he will not be the last unfortunately I pray he is God knows I do I'm in love with a black man I have black brother I pray George Floyd is the last I think you could tell from what Karen said at the beginning what Williams said and and I would add myself to them as well that we're work trying to figure out how to process this and I suspect a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are going through that as well if you don't feel like you want this weight on your shoulders I respect that completely and you don't have to respond but if you do have some guidance for us some suggestions especially in terms [Music] of what we as Business Leaders say to the public what we as Business Leaders say to our employees what we as Business Leaders say to our black employees I I would welcome that but again that's it shouldn't be on your all on your shoulders and I trust you I trust I've always told you I trust you and so I'll say this don't be afraid to be uncomfortable it is uncomfortable growth and change is uncomfortable and keep going and don't be afraid when you are standing on on the side right and it's uncom comfortable don't be afraid and then if you get upset when you're uncomfortable if you are uncomfortable because of what I said or what you've heard or protesters find the opportunity to grow and ask yourself why it's okay to be uncomfortable there in lies the change right it's also okay not to know I want you guys to be gentle with yourselves but keep going be gentle I've said that to everybody I've talked to who's like H Dana I'm just not where you are where you wouldn't be right it's like you wouldn't wouldn't be where I am right that's a little a lot that's a lot to ask but stop trying or don't try to initiate change or growth on your end comfortably especially when it comes to race in America and keep going for those of you that have black employees for those of you that have black emplo black clients especially for those of you that have black employees please know that we're tired please know that if you like I have been several times the one or two or three black employee in an office full of people that don't look like me know that they are in their car taking a minute before they come to work today and it is your responsibility to do all that you can to create a safe space we are tired and they are nervous because they don't know what they're going to get but you make it better for them when you make a public statement that says not here when you say to your your clients not here we are on the side of Human Rights and black lives matter in this place your lives matter we see you I love you and you are enough people don't say that nobody said it to me I was so mad at Barack Obama for running for president so mad at him because of what he put me in a position he put me in at work I was very proud of him but there was aide of me I was like come on Barack what do you mean by the position he put you in meaning that you had to defend him at every turn I had to answer for him I had to become the deputy of the colored in my workplace everything he said that made them uncomfortable I had to say no no no he didn't mean that no no no he'll be your president too no no no because the alternative was to let them leave the break room thinking wrong and I felt I owed it to that man to tell the truth or to bat away ignorance so it's business owners for those of you who have clients and for those of you who have people who work for you not people of color black people people of color are not under the knee of the Minneapolis Police Department black people be very clear as to that Line in the Sand black lives matter human rights this is where we are on the side of Human Rights I love you I support you and you are safe here I may not have all the answers I may not be eloquent I may not know the right words to say but I'll tell you what not here and be very clear and it should go out should be private it should be well if you want to see it no this is where we stand on this issue that's why this instance with George Floyd is different because it gives you an opportunity to take a stand that's what you say to your staff please know that your staff is struggling please know they'll never show you because they're not sure if it's safe and even if it is you are still their boss you are not their friend but they will note and remember what you did to make them safe your customers will remember what you did and how you stood they will remember they may not not they may not stop working with you but they'll file it away they'll know that's it nobody's asking you to be eloquent nobody's asking you to be Reverend Al Sharpton nobody's asking you to be Jane Elliott just be clear crystal clear so I unfairly put Dano on the spot I guess I'll do it to William and Karen too after what we've heard and we only have a few moments left William any thoughts well just that I I that I don't know what I'm doing and that of for all the work we've done to say that uh we're working toward diversity we're hiring toward diversity we're working with churches that I don't understand I mean that's the big learning for me and we're trying to learn how to understand and hopefully some good dialogue and intentional listening uh will help me and help our company um because it's different as a white guy it's different this time it's just different I don't know why maybe God's doing something in my heart and I know I'm getting spiritual on a business podcast when I say that but maybe it's just something going on in me and I'll I hope to understand better and to take action that reflects it Karen any thoughts um I'm I'm listening I'm just listening you know I'm listening to our employees and I think what Dana said about creating a safe Space is really critical and so that's I mean that's the one thing that I I feel like I can do and so I'm working hard at doing that and then we'll see what we have to do next or what we should do or need to do or you know are empowered to do and uh but I'm listening as I said it had been my intention to to go around and talk to each of you about how each of your businesses are doing somehow that doesn't seem appro at this point I think we just summarized it Lauren our businesses are suffering I mean our businesses are made up of people and so it's not like the business lives on its own you know so I think Dana's words are exactly describing how you know certainly everyone I come in contact with is feeling it's it's hard and it's not it's hard for it's hard for me and and so I think that's exactly how our businesses are doing I guess I have a question I've heard it's hard it's hard it's hard I don't understand how it's hard and then it's not I don't understand why it's hard that's not a judgment question it is literally a I don't know why it's hard I'm like I don't know like maybe let me ask somebody so I can get an answer not I can't believe it's hard why no that's not how I feel I feel like huh I wonder why it's hard it's hard like I think both you guys said it's hard I don't tell me how you're how it's hard I I'm not sure how to answer it honestly but except it's the opposite of easy I mean it it knowing how to represent 140 people for me is and making sure I don't screw it up feels hard it's the weight of the responsibility and it's the you know I you know I feel I'm I'm really sad and disheartened by the whole thing and that is hard it's just maybe it's the word that I use and it it could be a different word I think maybe the question Dana is asking Karen is is it hard for you to know where you stand is that what's hard about it or is it hard to articulate where you stand no it's hard to believe honestly I I just the it it's there's there aren't words for it in terms of the yeah yeah I just think it's hard I can't I don't understand why you know and it's too big of a I don't want to anything I say is going to sound like it's it's not big enough but it's just I just can't believe that this is how the world is I think it's it's hard to me to to get my head around it because it's just not anything that I I have any close I don't understand it it it makes no sense to me it's not right it's just it's awful and I you know and again none of these aren't the right words but but I'm just all of it is just um it's it's the weight of it is hard William were you going to say something I I guess uh I what's hard for me is to get my mind around what you've lived through and I think that's what I'm understanding it's not hard for me to understand what's going on I I our statement that I wrote I thought boy if you really William if you really are realizing that you don't get it then you better ask some opinion so I sent it to several black pastors that I'm good friends with I sent it to my workout buddy who's you know black guy and and said what do you see when you read this where are the blind spots because I've got them I've had I'm realizing it's a blind spot I think that's a great question William well and it's interesting the the one thing that several of them said to take out of the statement I'd said somewhere you know we have got to start reflecting behavior that will prevent things like the senseless lynching that happened and all of them said don't use that word and I said why not said well you say the word lynching it's going to raise opinions and you're G to argue over this I'm sorry I'm using it because that's what it was I think it's great and I think it's great and and honestly I get to use that word and maybe my friends it's black doesn't because it makes them sound you know victimized or whatever but like I get to say it and it is what it was so like understanding where I am is really easy understanding how I learn what I don't know is the hard part for me so I'm just trying to listen and I know that sounds lame I hope it doesn't sound evasive but but that is where I am I think I think Karen you you did it I think you did it you said you know I think when you make a company statement when you when you're trying to find the worst what to say to all hund and some people you say it's like being the pilot of the ship you don't run back and say oh my God we you know this plane is about to crash and I'm really nervous and I don't know really no no no you C you go back and you say I can't believe this is happening I am sad everything that you said and like I don't see she just said it you did I was like I'm nodding with you I'm sitting here smiling I'm like yep okay you said it and I think if you don't know what to say to your staffs look at you are your company right and start there and and and make the statement as the leader of your company I am sad this hurts me I think when you tell them when you share with them your struggle with it you're you're giving them part of your struggle and saying help me with this and I think that's something you should do behind the scenes with people you trust right I think as a leader you know I my leadership style is I trust I don't I want my my staff to see that I am I'm I'm in the ground I'm I'm right there I'm not so much strong but I'm not changing I'm right I'm right you know you can lean on me you can rely on me I'm not you know I don't really waver right not saying that you are I'm just with me it's as simple as this is it and I think you you said it like I was listening to you and that's why I asked you what is hard and you said what's hard is the fact that we're here the fact that this is this is reality that there's that this even exists I'm I'm like okay write that down write that down write that down well I I can tell you it's not really um behind the scenes in our company Forum yesterday I spent the first five minutes in tears and I couldn't even talk well everyone watched me it's okay I out there it's out there and but I think you know I I'll ask any business owner that's listen if it's hard for you to make a statement this is not a hard this is easy it's it's easy and that's why I said you're either here or you're there and you are here Karen and nobody's asking you to be eloquent nobody's asking you to be an order we're asking you to say I'm here right same thing with you William I mean boom you said and I said when I watched George Floyd's video I said they lynched this man on on TV on video is lynching and that's it it's lynching I don't I don't necessarily agree we'll take that out of there well why it's what happened it's not your opinion it literally is what happened they killed this man I mean they murdered him you could say murder you could say Lynch you could say strangled you could say but that's that's what they did so if it's hard look in within yourselves and figure out why it's hard figure out where do you stand watch the video how does this make me feel there's your statement if your you watch the video and your statement is well he didn't really die from that he had some other health issues what like how some people feel right if that's where then that's where you stand that's it I think for some people it's hard because like you said I've never had to deal with this I've never had to deal with being a migrant worker I've never had to deal with the issues they face and I've always been a citizen but if I had migrant workers working for me and they were being mistreated I would know what to say because it's it's it's who I am and so that's what my question is my challenging question for you whether it makes you comfortable or not to the listeners and to the people on the phone is who are you and and find and if it's hard here you like evaluate that evaluate I have no problem saying M work no you are safe here and I dare somebody to come and purely avoid looking for you we don't have any you know um citizens or illegal citizens or whatever we don't have them working with us but if we did I would say this is where peral boy stands with that you safe here just that simple but I do love the fact that nobody on the call was like you know I'm just so worried about my money I'm just afraid that clients won't do business with me anymore and you guys to me it's clear we may not be the ux company for you if this is if this offends you we may not be the service for you at Vander bluman if this is how you feel like I I think I heard that in both of your statements and I think that's a a great start that's great I've heard so many people well you know I don't really know I don't want to offend okay there's your stance it's so quiet oh my good it's comfortable but um yeah I think the important thing is that hard doesn't you know that that doesn't mean shy away from it that means lean into it and ackowledge that it's hard I mean that that's how I feel it's like w this is hard and let's push into it and and uncover that yep and who am I like why is this hard right I know what the right thing is I know I saw that video and I know that that was wrong and I can just and then put yourself in your client's Feet Shoes put yourself in your staff shoes put yourself to any in the shoes of anybody who can relate to that video and then once you feel that what do you say and like I said it doesn't have to be you don't have to be order you don't have to be Jane Elliot Al Sharpton you don't have to be me you know whatever you can say I you you said it Karen like guess what like oh my go she said it you did it I mean you did right I think it's important to acknowledge there are different degrees of the different levels of being hard some things are really hard some things are incredibly hard uh it can be hard to find the right words but that's not the same thing as you know having somebody's knee on your neck it can be hard to breathe right um so this was in many ways hard but not hard like that and uncomfortable but I think important um I think we all knew this would be uncomfortable going into it but that was why it was important to do it and I appreciate all of you being willing to engage in this conversation and deal with the discomfort and the hardness especially you Dana again thank you for being willing to tell us what you really think absolutely amen I need a drink yeah I need a drink thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman at21 hats.com see you next time [Music]