It’s a Bear Market for Citibin

[Music] Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. This week, Liz Picarazzi tells Jay Goldston and William Vanderblan that she's had a couple of big breakthroughs. For Liz, it's been a challenging few years dealing with the tariffs while also trying to break into a promising new market. Despite the advice of some very smart people who encouraged her to conquer her first market, urban areas plagued by rats, before expanding into additional markets, Liz has invested a lot of time and energy trying to position City Bin to serve towns, parks, and resorts that need trash bins strong enough to withstand bears. For that investment to pay off, however, Liz would have to outsmart her nemesis, an especially ferocious competitor that goes by the name of Sely. Plus, Jay talks about the plight of small retailers trying to survive while their industry collapses around them. And William tells us how he's trying to keep up in the AI arms race between employers and employees. Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges. In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community. Engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insights only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, you can sign up for a free trial of the Morning Report newsletter, which highlights the most important news of the day for business owners and shows how other owners are confronting challenges and seizing opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. You might also try our monthly Zoom mastermind where owners from around the country gather to compare notes. It's a lot like this podcast except you get to be part of the conversation. Shoot me an email at lauren21hats.com to get more information. Joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Jay Goltz, CEO of the Goultz Group, whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business, artist frame service, and a home furnishing store. Jason Holm. Liz Picarazzi, who is CEO of City Bin, which makes trash enclosures and package bins and is based in Brooklyn, New York, and William Vanderluman, CEO of Vanderblan Search Group, a Houston-based recruiting firm that works with churches and other faith-based organizations. The episode is titled It's a Bare Market for City Bin. Welcome Jay, Liz, and William. It's great to have you all here. I want to start with you, Liz. I gather you've taken another crack at getting your trash enclosures certified as bearproof. Before you tell us what's going on, can you remind us what this entails and what happened the last time you tried? >> Sure, I'm happy to. Um, so I will give a little bit more context with sort of the enclosure. So, citybin trash enclosures have always primarily been to keep rats out. So, New York City rats, that's what we're built for. We've been known that way. And for several years, we were getting requests from people in mountain areas where bears are an issue if we had a bear resistant version of our city bin. And so, for a few years, we said no. But we got enough requests that we realized this is something we should really look into. Why don't we basically trick out and make um a bearer resistant version? Um it's made out of steel instead of out of aluminum. It has all the bare relevant hardware that you may think of if you go to a national park and you use a sort of a paddle handle latch to open the doors. So, we made all those modifications and part of the reason we did it was that we wanted to get a certificate from the IGBC, which is the inner grizzly bear committee. You guys can laugh. >> Is it made up of grizzly bears? >> Um, no. It's made out of some really lovely people actually, but they weren't easy on us. Um, we went through all of the modifications to our product so that it met the qualification for IGBC and then we set out to get it tested to be certified. So, there's a testing lab for IGBC at in um, East Yellowstone, Montana, and that is where they do product testing for all different types of bear resistant products, trash cans, coolers, trash enclosures. And so we started our testing in 2023 and failed. Very surprising. I don't like that we failed. >> Why did you fail? >> So it had to do with the mounting mechanism and I don't want to go into great detail, but it sort of had to do with alignment of expectations about how the product would be mounted. And it ended up not being mounted at all. And so the bear pushed it over in four minutes. Um, four minutes out of a basically a six-hour test with revolving bears. Every 45 minutes, new bears come in and test the product. So that was 2023. We made a bunch of revisions, went in there in 2024, last summer. Um, and the bear legitimately got through. The bin was totally mounted. Um, and they it got in the front door. So, um, we videotaped the whole >> How did it get in? >> So, basically, if you've ever seen bear testing, you'll see that they perform CPR on whatever vessel they're trying to get into. So, they're basically just repeatedly pushing it over and over and over. Um, the other thing they do is that the the food, it's usually sardines and peanut butter, honey, dog biscuits, that's all rubbed all over the exterior, particularly in the hinges and around all the hardware door edges. So, they're smelling that food and that's incredibly motivating. So, they're trying to get in there and they can detect the weak points. The good thing about testing, I will admit, is that it really shows you where the weak areas are to improve it. There's no way I would have known that that door wasn't bear resistant without getting a grizzly bear to test it. So, for the sake of human beings and sake of the bears, it's really good that we knew that because then we looked at the bin after the 2024 test and determined a few key areas where we wanted to make improvements. So, that's the background going into 2025. >> Do you pay the grizzly bears or you just exploiting their free labor? >> Um, we pay we pay for a certification test. And you know, these these bears are somewhat lucky because they would have been euthanized. There are only about 10 bears at this center and that is over the years. So these are bears that all became habituated to human food and therefore you know became not safe to themselves or humans um because they would repeatedly go back to the same food sources um and that can become dangerous and many many bears every year are euthanized because of that. So we're not paying the bears but the bears basically have a a lifetime home. You just saved their lives. You are really going right to heaven. No question about it. >> Okay. So, should I move on? 2025. >> Yeah. Tell us. >> So, 2025, we take a year to make the changes. We set the the date up and we went to East Yellowstone mid July um to test not not one but two products because you can test them at the same time like different days. And the same bear that got into the bin the first two tests, her name is Sely. She was the first bear in the lineup. And there's a lineup of an entire day of bear tests with six different bears testing throughout the day in shifts of 45 minutes. This bear, Steelely, I found out was going to be the first one. And I found that out before I went to bed the night before the test. And I did not sleep because I have seen this bear, you know, in slow motion because we videotape it. Get in there. She's very ferocious. She's very motivated and also she has a lot of experience touching and smelling and being all around this bin. So, she's got two years of familiarity going into it. So, this bear and her sister Condi come out and they're both really aggressive with the bins at first, but soon after they started to give up and they started to go swimming. They were trying to knock over trees. They were playing with each other, obviously looking for food around the habitat and other spaces where the people in the habitat center leave the food. So long story short, the two module passed um after multiple rounds. So we were totally elated, not entirely surprised, but we were like, "Wow, this took over three years of work. We've passed." Then the next day was the next product that we were going to test. And that was sort of we kind of added this last minute, but basically it's a smaller version of the one we were testing. and that one passed. So, we passed not one but two products in this session and we got our official certification last Thursday. >> And the certification says exactly what >> it says it's certified by the IGBC as bear resistant and that is per the test protocol you know that we followed. >> Congratulations. >> Wait, did you get a certificate that's suitable for framing? >> I did Jay. I really did. That was exciting. And you know, I'm going to have to send that to you. >> What about a t-shirt? Did Did you get a t-shirt with the picture of the bear on it or anything? Can we get some of those? >> I actually I already have basically like stationery and towels and pins with this bear, Seely. They have all different gear in their gift shop for every bear. And because she was the fiercest competitor that I was most concerned about, like I have a soft spot in my heart for her now because she failed. And um I know how that feels from the previous two years. >> Do we get to vote now on whether you made this entire story up because it's quite entertaining and I feel like I'm on NPR or something and we're supposed to decide truth or fiction. It's a great story. >> Thank you. >> So what happens now, Liz? What does it mean that you got cert certification? >> Okay, so a number of things. First off, I can sell my bear resistant bins as IGBC certified, which is really important. There's not that many players in the field. And therefore, it's a big deal for us as a brand to get into the official mix because we appeal to towns, cities, resorts that have bare problems. Um, and some of them we have sold into some that did not require the IGBC certification, but for instance, the town of Aspen in Colorado, we had sold some in there and they basically were like, "We love these, but you have to be IGBC certified to sell anymore." So, we were we basically already have a buildup of people who want to buy them, but we needed to wait for the IGBC certification. So, it's a very important marketing um tool, but it also is important for any sort of town that has a regulation for an IGBC certified container, and there's many of them as well as national parks. So, national parks requires that I'm IGBC certified plus made in the USA. And that is another part of the bear story. I would like to nominate Liz for the 21 Hats Entrepreneur of the Year award that gets a certificate and a t-shirt because that is an incredible journey you've gone on and congratulations. >> Thank you. >> No kidding. >> I feel like a loser now. What What have I been doing for the last year? I feel like a complete loser. You're out there going and getting bears, tricking bears, and getting the whole thing, and I've just been just sitting here doing regular stuff. Well, when you were my age, you would have been doing all this, too. You're just a little bit older. >> So, now I'm just old. Okay. All right. Thank you for pointing that out. I accept that. I've lost my edge. You're telling me, >> Liz, I hope you sign Celely to some kind of um influencer contract or endorsement contract. >> I would love to. Um we are making an incredible video that like when you ask me, Lauren, what's next? It's not just this ability to sell to customers that we know want to buy, but it's my opportunity to do marketing, which I love, and new creative videos, launch video, everything revolving around bears with a focus on Celely. So, I have a a video producer that I've been working on, and he's just come up with this amazing amazing video, basically showing these bears performing CPR on my product over three years. And um it's almost done like a almost like a home improvement show with the scoring in the background of, you know, um sort of uncertainty and then victory at the end. Um, so I'm really happy to be in that role of sort of creating new marketing and messaging. Um, because at this point I'm the one who really knows what I want and what I think the market wants. And sometimes if you've done marketing over the years and you don't have that blank slate, you're sort of limited. So this is sort of a a canvas of sorts for me and I'm really feeling I'm feeling very stimulated by that. Do you have inventory uh of these products that to sell or were you waiting until you got certification to ramp up production? >> The latter. Um we have always with the bare bins that we've sold. I think we have like 12 or 14 clients. Um those have always been like custom orders with our factory. We didn't do a full tooling with them yet and we also had a lot of iteration. So, the plan is to put a purchase order in in September for our first order. It'll be a smallalish order. And part of the reason it's going to be smallish is that it's not going to be going to Asia. It's going to be going to the US. >> Whoa. You found somebody to make them domestically. >> I did. I did. And this has been in the works for about 3 or 4 months now. I didn't want to share so openly about it because I didn't know if it was going to work, but it is looking like it's going to work. And it may turn out that our supplier for bear will be entirely in the US. >> Wow. >> You know, two birds with one stone. >> Can you tell us any more about who's going to be doing the fabrication? >> I don't want to go into great detail, but I do have two um suppliers. One of them is in the Midwest and one of them is on the West Coast. >> Wait, is one of them in Green Bay, Wisconsin? Because Green Bay hates the bears. That's a little Chicago joke. Yeah, but you know I'm a scanie, so my packers are always going to be in my heart. >> All right, cuz that would be great if that's where they were located. >> So with production, we are actually in the process of getting some sampling done with two different factories and um we've already placed a PO with one of them. It's not for bear, it's for a different product to sort of as a test, but I've had this sort of in the background. We're sort of taking it slow, but all signs are showing at this point that we're going to be able to manufacture the bear bin in the US. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah, that is amazing. Um, is this going to be possible in part because you can charge more for the bear proof and it'll be a more profitable product line for you? >> Yeah, it's partly because of that, but it's partly that it's going to open up my market size like dramatically. the with the made in the USA. I don't I couldn't really even go after a lot of government contracts if I didn't have that. So that's really motivating, you know, even though the price is higher, it is worth it because then we also have a much shorter supply chain. So with the West Coast um factory, we would be able to keep inventory of bear than on the West Coast, which is primarily where our customers are. Um so that's another sort of supply chain just great things that I just a big part of it. >> The fact is rats are a more subtle problem. You don't necessarily know you have rats, but when the bear goes and rips open your garbage can, you come out, you know you got a huge problem. So, I can totally see where they'd be more anxious to go spend the money on it because they come out and they got what do they do? The garbage can's been ripped apart. I mean, they got a that's a huge problem. the food that we put out for animals. You know, rats eat it and it's human beings fault, but bears eat it too and it's human beings fault, but we think they're cute. And we don't always think about the impact on even the community. Like, if you're not taking care of a problem with a bear coming into your neighborhood, that affects everybody else. And that's part of the reason why some of these towns are mandating the bear enclosures because the the amount of human bear contact is increasing every year. >> Are there competitive products trying to solve that same problem? >> There are there's a couple there's one major player that if you go into most national parks, you're going to see a certain type of enclosure that has the uh like the paddle handles where you push your hand in and push a lever and the door opens. That's a standard bear uh resistant enclosure. They're really big. And that's another thing that I'm sort of exciting about is that there aren't that many players. And if I were a government buyer, I would really like to have two, three, four options. And right now, I would guess that this competitor probably owns about 90% of the market. Then I'm going to go eat their lunch >> like a bear. >> Yeah. Liz, through the years we've talked about this um at various points and I know you've gotten some advice you maybe on the podcast may as well as off the podcast that you shouldn't be diverting your focus from your main business that there's plenty of business for you in New York City and other urban areas for your rat proof enclosures. you should go after that market, satisfy that, and then think about expanding in in other ways. You obviously didn't take that uh advice. How are you thinking about that today? >> I'm glad that I didn't take their advice because I passed the test. You know, if I if I had to put another year of time and resources into this, if we had failed in July, I definitely would have thought, "Okay, this is a suck on your time." Um, we've been actually working to develop that market for over three years now, even before we started the testing. So, we have long lead lists. Um, we're going to be doing a lot of marketing. We're going to be meeting with towns that have already expressed an interest. So, I don't feel like I'm chasing after something where I have a solution and there's not a enough of a need. There's a very clear need with very few solutions. And um I want to be a part of that. I want to I don't want to wait for someone else to come in. And there are an adaptation of our product to make it bear resistant. But it still is a modification of my product. And that's what I've been able to do with everything is modular. You know, you can have a planter, you can have a package locker, you can have it bearproof, you can have it sanitation worker, hefty. It's not like it's a whole new business. It is a new product line. And yes, it is a different customer, but I have really spent a lot of time wrapping my head around who is the customer, what do they need, and how do I get through to them? So, I'm not starting from like zero. I've got this time in and I really at this point it's sort of executing. >> Have you considered doing another name? Because city bin, while it works great for, you know, rat enclosures, if you were starting from scratch and just came up with this bear thing, I think you'd probably have a different name that somehow >> I do, Jay. Good. >> You know what? I'm actually going to share it here. >> Wow. >> I don't know when exactly this is going to be published, but the name of the bear resistant city bin is the Grizz Bin. >> Okay, nice. >> The Grizz Bin by City Bin. So it is has its own separate product name but it's underneath the umbrella and we wanted to keep the same convention of having the word bin in the name. >> You have the URL. >> Um I do and I also have an Instagram profile that I haven't even started populating yet. So that's another sort of blank slate instead of feeling like oh my god I don't have anything there. It's I build it. >> You got a tagline like not not endorsed by bears. or or by Celely. >> Yeah, Cely. Cely gave up. Maybe something about bears give up with the Grisbin. Like when I was watching the test and I saw the bears give up and walk away and like go swimming, I saw that they were giving up and that really was a sign that that is what they do when they can't when they no longer have a reliable food source. Well, when you decided to keep pursuing this uh a couple years ago, you didn't really know that the tariffs were coming and you couldn't have known that this would unlock uh domestic manufacturing for you. It just seems like this has paid off in ways that you couldn't even have anticipated back then. >> I have mixed feelings about that because you are right. The tariffs have stimulated me to chart different courses or diversify my supply chain. A lot of smart people I know like early in talking about this, they immediately understand that Trump's policies have transformed my business in a way that they feel uncomfortable with. Not like, oh, damn it, Liz, you're proving him wrong, but a little bit of disappointment that the mandate has led to this this thing. um the ability to manufacture here. So, I don't really know how to explain it, but um sometimes, and I guess this is super personal, which I know Lauren you like, is that I don't necessarily want people to know that it was this bear thing and the tariff thing that enabled me to come to the US, but it's true. >> Well, the world works in funny ways sometimes. >> That's a whole new version of entrepreneur guilt. >> It is. I hear what you're saying because there's other people that are not going to be able to find a solution like that and it just work it worked out for you. But I hear your point that you don't want to be an advertisement for oh look this the tariffs were a good thing look how it helped me cuz some people are going to have a much harder time with this cuz you know there was a certain amount of luck involved that you know bears are the whole thing. >> Yeah. And then the other thing to put this into context which is really important is that I don't plan on moving everything away from Asia just because of this. I plan on keeping probably a good 50 to 75% of my production in Vietnam because they're doing a great job even with the tariff. I know the Trump stuff is is just temporary. It may be 3 years for me, but if this whole thing has taught me I need to have diversification of my supply chain and if I need to have factory in China, Vietnam, you know, West Coast, Midwest, four different factories ready to produce, um, that makes me feel safer. Planning is difficult because you're dealing with four different factories. But just because this thing with Bear has passed and that we're going to manufacture that in the US, that's probably not even 5% of my sales. So, it's not like, oh, Victoria, she's moving things to the US. I'm moving like 5% of my production to the US for now. You could probably instantly double that in in marketing wagger if you just said our US-made products are peacefully convincing Canadian bears who are here illegally to go home. >> Oh my god, that's the best. Can I write that down and and use it? >> Absolutely. >> Wait, but is it maybe the bear is Russian? >> Well, they're selfporting is what? Yeah, they're self-epporting. Yeah. >> All right. peacefully solving the immigration crisis one bearer at a time. >> So I think the entrepreneur lesson from this is what we all have to do do what you can. You kept moving along and we have to deal with things and you do what you can and sometimes you can find a solution and good for you worked it out >> well and you know I've gotten advice over the years to Lauren pointing out to to focus more. Um a number of people told me that. Carrie Smith told me that a few years ago when I wanted to expand nationwide and our own Paul DS told me that way before 21 Hats when I knew him like 10 years ago when I was talking about shifting from custom city bins to prefabricated kits. And he too was sort of like focus on what you're good before you move ahead. And in both cases with both of those people, I listened to their advice, but I proceeded and moved ahead with what my plan was. >> Okay. I never told you that cuz I don't I think it that whole thing, stick to the knitting. Okay. Sometimes that makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. I think any kind of blanket advice to an entrepreneur, oh, stick to what you're good at, that might be really bad advice cuz maybe you stumbled into something was actually better than what you started with. So, I wasn't one of those people. Although, as you say, that advice has been good advice for a lot of people. >> For sure. Sometimes it is. For sure. >> Like me, opening up a pizza place probably not a good idea. >> You're the one who brought it up a couple of >> I've already I've already I've already talked myself out of it. >> Okay, >> Liz, I just want to get back to one thing. You said that the market for the uh bear uh enclosures would be 5%. And I assume that's the first year and I'm guessing that you think that down the line it could be a much larger percentage of your sales. Correct? >> Yes. Yes. >> But correct me if I'm wrong. If you look at the market, there are far more people in the United States that have problems with rats than have problems with bears. >> Well, there are more rats than bears. >> Way more rats. That's the point. Thous millions more people, >> right? So there's more cities. The point is you you started in Yellowstone Park. Okay, that's the obvious place. There aren't that many. You know, I'm sure that that the rat problem is a much bigger problem. So, >> was it Edison or Ford or one of the guys in that time I heard said, uh, if you want to eat with the classes, you have to feed the masses. So, rat problem is probably going to carry the business more than the bear problem. >> Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think there's the the market size is limited because of that reason. there's less of a bear issue than there is of a rat issue. But within the category of bear, there is such a concentration with this one player that for me that is a market size because essentially I'm bringing myself in there as a second, third option to what they already have. And then so they're somewhat self- selecting. Well, you personally have a problem now in that it's one thing to have rats pissed at you, but it's another thing to have bears pissed at you cuz they're much bigger and >> that's why she lives in Brooklyn, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Some of them you act big and run toward and others you run away. I mean, it's a whole >> got to know which is which. >> Now, I will say I am thinking product funnel for you. Uh, you know, those people who have bear problems probably own companies that need to hear about the original business. >> Oh, so you're saying that somebody who buys the bear product may businesses and properties, maybe rental properties, maybe like >> have a need for the rat product. >> Uhhuh. >> Now, that's interesting cuz I'm not sure if somebody has a bear problem. I assume they're not in a dense population. That's an interesting question. How much overlap? How many people in this United States have a problem with both bears getting into their garbage and rats? That's interesting cuz like New York obviously doesn't have any bear problems and then the question is are there places that get both? >> But your your CEOs have a home in Aspen with bear problems. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's going to be we're going to be doing a lot of press and I think whenever we get good media, the new customer type will come out of the woodworks and then we're like, "Oh, HOAs. Oh, this HOA has a problem with bears in, you know, Denver or you just never know. I mean, this is something I expect to get some pretty good press on because it's about bears and I can talk about rats and bears and I think Lauren, wouldn't you agree most reporters would like to write about that? >> Yeah, it's it's an interesting story and there are all kinds of ways to to have fun with it. Uh, sure. But, you know, ultimately it's the success of the business that will drive those stories. All right, Jay, I don't quite know how to do this transition, but you and I have been talking recently about your business and the picture framing industry, and I'm sorry to say it's not as quite as as happy or entertaining a story as the one Liz just presented us with. No, it's I'll tell you what it's a story of. It's a story of to Liz's point, I'm old and I've been in this industry for I've been framing pictures literally using the word properly for 50 years since I was, you know, a teenager and things have changed in 50 years. And when I got into it and when I graduated college, I'm a middle baby boomer. The baby boomers were getting out of college, traveling, buying posters, and they drove the framing industry. And the framing industry grew dramatically over the next 30 years. And then you get to 2000 and all of a sudden the baby boomers, the oldest ones are in their 50s and slowly but surely they stop framing pictures and their kids are not framing pictures. And then the TV comes out to go on walls. That took some market share and then you got some big chain stores got into it. So the point is in 2000 there were about 25,000 frame shops in America. Now there's 6,000. With that being said, framing is not going away. But you've suggested to me that the the industry in some ways is going through a transition. >> Yeah. When you go from 25,000 frame shops down to six, you start to have issues. So the issues now are the suppliers are consolidating and there's less suppliers. There's only one matboard company now. There used to be two that one bought the other one and there was there was two or three different metal frame companies. Now there's only one. So the industry has shrunk. And again, I don't think frame, you know, I still do a lot of business framing pictures and people love framing pictures and they want framing, you know, not not a huge part of the population, but whatever 2, three, 4% of people still want pictures framed, but you can't help but notice the industry has shrunk. For instance, there used to be like half a dozen trade shows every year for picture framing, and now there's one. So, >> do people still go to the trade show? Yeah, but even at its peak, only probably 15 20% of framers go to a trade show, which I think is ridiculous. I think everybody should go to their national trade show. I'm buddies with I'm the business editor of Picture Frame magazine. I'm tight with the people that run the magazine and, you know, they're my age and like they're going to eventually, you know, retire and I'm going to, you know, so it's just interesting watching where it's going to end up. And there are some industries like I went to get a lawn mower for somebody. lawnmower places are are going out of business because lawnmowers are now electric. They don't need to be repaired. So like poof, I I don't know that there's going to be any lawnmowers uh repair places left. They're almost down to nothing as it is. So it begs the question, there's still a need for framing out there. I just uh but the industry has shrunk now. Is that a problem or is it just right sizing? Okay, maybe it's just right sizing, but it's concerning that there's only one glass company. There's only one mapboard company. There's only metal frame company. >> What What direct impact does that have on you? Does that mean your prices for those things are all going up? >> Not necessarily. Um it's just well like the glass company has a monopoly. I'm not saying they're taking advantage of anybody, but they're part of a huge company, a multi-billion dollar company. We're getting to a point where the suppliers are pretty much becoming monopolies. So, I don't know. It's just a little concerning. And I I don't believe the framing business is going away. I still think and I have to to say the five or 6 thousand are left are the better frame shops and and I sell, you know, I sell wholesale to many of they're doing well. They're healthy. They're serving a purpose out there in the world. People want professional help getting framing done. You can go into a chain store, but it's not the same thing. So, I'm I I do believe that the people that are in the frame business can continue to do well. When was the last time someone came to you and said, "I'm thinking of opening a frame store." >> Well, I had an interesting phone call. There's a chain of frame stores. They had 300 frame stores. Now, if you go on their website, I think they're down to 40 from 300. Someone calls me and he says, "Jay, I noticed you're the big guy in the framing industry. I read your articles. I know you speak at the trade shows. I thought I would just ask you this question. I'm thinking get in the frame business, but I'm confused. I went to three of these these chain of the franchise. I went into three of them and all three told me the same thing. They all said the business isn't making money. It's not doing what I thought. But I'm not sorry I bought the franchise. And I said, "Oh, I can explain that. It's easy. The ones that figured out they shouldn't have bought it. They're out of business. These people are still in delusion and they're still holding on hoping." The the joke in framing used to be, you know, why is framing so expensive? And I said, "Let's stop asking that question is why do so many people do it?" And the reason is because it's fabulous. Because if you've ever seen somebody who brought their cherished whatever in and they framed it and they pick it up, it's it's it's a beautiful thing and they hang it on their wall and it hangs there for the rest of their life. So framing still has a use in the world, but it's smaller than it used to be. But I'm looking at the other small retailers that are out there, like in Chicago, there's pretty much no shoe stores left. I mean, it's unbelievable. There's like just a few. Like between Nordstrom's and getting it online, the shoe industry is almost wiped out. Men's clothing stores, every small men's clothing store that I grew up with, there's one left out of 20. Do you have any advice for someone who's in the frame business and struggling to hang in? >> I would say to them, you'd better be doing better framing because if they want crummy framing, they can go to the chain stores. Anyone that walks into a custom frame shop has made a conscious decision. They want something professionally done with someone that knows what they're doing because the chain stores train people for like 3 hours and throw them out in the counter. And framing is not that simple. And I'm confident that the independent frame store owner with with well-trained staff are doing a much more professional, better job. And it does make a difference. Not only does it look better, but you're preserving their art. There is a level of expertise that's necessary. So, I would say to an independent frame store owner, go to the trade show, improve your skills, find better stuff, be more professional because there are people that want that. Have you thought about a bear resistant frame? >> I am now, of course. Um, I'm making notes to myself. As soon as we're done here, I'm going to be looking into that. >> William, how are you doing? We haven't heard from you in a little while. Yeah, I've I've been on uh summer leave and that was a good time and very restorative for us and also good for the company. If you've listened to this for any length of time, my uh hope is that I am not the lid for our company living and thriving for a long time. So, every summer I take time off and have a little less involvement and uh was very pleased with how things went while we're gone. Um we're in a the midst of working as hard as we can on integrating new technology into our work so that we can do the part that's human at uh more thoroughly and automate the rest. So that's a fun new time to learn for me and I mean it is the wild wild west when it comes to AI and what things are going to look like in a service industry. So, it's it's fun to be in a time of learning without it being a time where we're grasping at straws and wondering what to do. >> Can you give us a sense of what you're learning and what you're excited about? >> I'm taking courses in AI leadership. I'm in a couple of think tanks to try and get past treating chat GPT like Google on steroids. What does this really mean for a business plan? And what are the things that can be automated? And I think the image that keeps coming to my mind for me right now is that I'm realizing the world of AI, at least generative AI and some predictive AI, uh is sort of like a feeling you might get if you had a thousand college interns at your fingertips 24/7 and they could go remove a whole lot of grind hours labor, but you do have to go back and check their work. And uh so we're starting to think through that strategically. What does that feel like for a uh a client who how can we anticipate what their concerns are going to be about candidates? How can we learn more about them so we can better fit a candidate to their organization? And I think removing some of the static that comes with sort of intern level work then puts us in a place where it's like okay we really are getting paid to think and provide discernment and human interaction and and those are the things that I'm hoping and banking uh on being skills that will last and become more and more a commodity and competitive advantage. So has your market now I've been in business way longer than you. So 50 years things change. >> I heard earlier that you're old. >> Yes. That's been that's been established. Now 50 years is a long time. So the question is you've been in business for what 20 years? >> Not even 17. >> Okay. All right. 17 years. So the question is has your market changed? Are there less churches than there used to be? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a great question. Um there that's a whole podcast but the short version is the market looks very very good for what we do. I think how we deliver it will will change over time and we're just trying to be a little out in front of that. >> So it's interesting. So Liz found a new market that's been around for a long time. Your market hasn't changed much and my market has been changing dramatically which that's what businesses there are some businesses that are still in the mature stage or declining and growing. It just shows you depends what your business is. And like I said, if I was the poor guy that owned the lawn mower shop and snowblower that's I I have to tell you it was very sad when I sat by this place I've gone to and there was a sign in the door. We've retired after 37 years. uh things have changed and you know blah blah blah and I actually I I it was sad. I mean I knew these guys for years and I I had to remind myself okay my business isn't going away like that but you know there are businesses that are just slowly but surely disappearing. I' I've said to the kids forever, you know, they've got the we all these children we've raised, we've got every play school version of kitchen and all the things and they love the cash register, you know, we're going to sell at the grocery store on the preschool cash register. I'm like, some poor family had a family business for making cash registers and that's over. >> Absolutely. And they were without my I have one in my showroom. I have my father's original push finger when I was 8 years old. I got it down there, but like a cash register was a big deal. They cost thousands of dollars back in the day and that was a major investment for a store owner and you're right, poof, they're gone. William, back to AI for a minute. You were talking about using it to do kind of the grind work. I'm curious whether you're also using it to do some of the analytical work. Are you using it to review resumeums? >> We're getting there. Well, I think uh if not now, within a year, every resume will be generated by AI. So, for the next at least five years, I think they'll be uh uh things will look too good. People's resumes will be too perfect. So, how do I figure out what's a real resume and what's not? How do I get somebody who'll dig behind the tech and the AI to figure out if somebody really is who they say they are? >> Is it an arms race? Will you be using AI to combat the AI that the candidates are using? Hopefully we hopefully it's conjunction with everything that I'm learning and I'm not even sophomoric yet on this. I'm very freshman level learning, but everything I'm learning from the smartest people I can find is quit thinking of AI as a replacement. Think of it as a new tool. The people who you learn to wield the tool will be in front. And whether or not we all get replaced is a whole different thing. But but for instance, say I got to present candidates to a really tough search committee and we you know we've had some of the most brilliant people on search committees. I remember one we had eight members of the search committee and there were 12 Ivy League degrees you know crazy smart people. What if you could say all right here's the profile of the church and the pastor they're looking for. Here's the slate of candidates we have. Here are the board members. And I'm going to upload all my notes on each board member, take the role of a skeptic, and tell me which one of these board members is not going to like which one of these candidates, and what can I do to head that frustration off of the past. So that level of strategy, yes, >> you're there or you're hoping to get there. >> We're starting to implement that as a SOP. So, we're not there, but that's part of where we're headed is some predictive about what are they going to like or not like about this. >> I don't see myself ever going that way. I just don't see it. I feel like résumés are so difficult as it is to, you know, figure out someone a lot of list of credentials. So, some of the soft stuff, >> Sure. >> I don't know. Some people that are really great don't even have degrees. >> That's exactly right. And you're not going to be able to get to them if AI is going to have college degree as a filter. >> Yep. Yep. We we do that. >> But you can adjust the filter. >> Well, I you know, this is a fun thing for me to do with what I do because Liz, I just say, "Okay, so they have to have a graduate degree." Yeah. Do they have to have an undergraduate degree? Yeah. So, well, all right. Dear church board member, you just ruled out Jesus, so he's no longer a candidate. and and oh and let's see Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg and I don't think AI is going to pick based on checkboxes and I think that's where the human interaction what we do I don't know that we'll do as much of the process 5 years from now but I think the parts we do we could actually charge more for because it's the things that cannot be automated who did we miss that doesn't have a degree who did we you know think too much of because their resume looks so perfect >> you'd want to know who can walk on water >> actually Jay it's who can walk in water and not track anything on the damn carpet when you get home. >> All right, my thanks to Jay Goltz, William Vanderblan, Liz Picarazzi. Thanks for sharing. [Music] One thing before you go, everything we do at 21 Hacks is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. 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