My Employees Are Freaking Out

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman if you've been listening to this podcast you probably know we started it with the idea that it would kind of be the view for business owners once a week we'd sit down with our cast of regulars and have a conversation in which they would compare notes on the challenges they were facing in their own businesses along with tackling larger issues all owners face like pricing hiring marketing and building a culture and then the world changed the view for business owners has morphed into the Corona virus diaries for the past few weeks and probably for the foreseeable future when we get together on Skype is to compare notes on how each of our business owners is coping managing surviving the crisis as you'll soon hear in this week's conversation there's a pretty Stark divide this week's 21 hats podcast lineup includes William Vander blumen who is founder and CEO of Vander bluman Search Group a recruiting firm that specializes in working with churches and other faith based organizations Dana White who is founder and CEO of paral Boyd a chain of hair salons based in Detroit and Laura Xander who is co-founder and CEO of Jimmy beans wool a digital version of a neighborhood yarn shop that is based in Reno Nevada at the time we recorded the podcast on Friday March 27th the day president Trump signed the cares act the stimulus package that targets 349 billion dollar in forgivable loans towards small businesses Dana had zero Revenue coming in she had had had to shut down her hair salons William still had some Revenue coming in but expected that to end fairly soon meanwhile with American stuck at home Laura Xander found herself riding a wave of knitting I mean I hate to say it she said apologetically but our numbers are really high they're really good right now one thing William Dana and Laura all have in common is they are all struggling a bit trying to figure out how best to manage their employees during this unprecedented time you can find a transcript of the conversation it's 21h hats.com welcome everyone to uh another Corona virus special edition of the 21 hats podcast if you uh if you hear a little buzzing in the background I'm not in my usual uh podcast studio and that uh that background Buzz is being donated generously by the uh leaf blowers in my neighbor's yard they're 6 feet away from you though at least right from me but not from each other which uh is a little concerning with a blower too blower right right Lauren I feel your pain I you know we've gone remote at our work and I have lost track of how many people's children I've seen run across the background in a diaper or dogs bark or all the things I'm so glad this is audio uh let's get a quick update from each of you I want to hear how you're doing where you where things stand with your businesses uh Dana we last spoke with you two weeks ago and you were still focused on what you needed to do to keep your hair salons open in uh in Detroit uh I gather that's no longer uh possible so the governor did Issue an executive order for pretty much um all non-essential businesses to close so we are closed um I closed about two three days before she required us to to close why did you do that what prompted it I was concerned that you know there might be somebody who comes in to the salon and might in you know infect my staff um no matter how clean we were in the salon we couldn't control that the other thing was the volume um on our busy days we were seeing about half that volume than we normally would on a busy day so when I looked at the numbers and I thought about my staff I went ahead and decided to lay off everybody I also you know my network told me that this is coming and I wanted my staff to be able to file for unemployment before for the the mad rush Laura when we spoke uh last week you had just gone through a tough layoff at the company you bought in Texas um but your online yarn sales were were holding up pretty well um kind of the same thing uh we did the layoff um we're in much better shape I think that we're going to be able to afford especially with the paid Leave Act we'll be able to afford to keep everybody and pay them full-time even if they aren't able to work full-time down in Texas um the our Reno business and the online business I mean I hate to say it but our numbers are really high they're really good right now um they did a you know both of our states both Nevada and Texas or the counties that were in lockdowns as well but both of our businesses are excluded from those lockdowns because your distribution businesses yes in Nevada it's manufacturing distribution and storage um is excluded those are essential businesses and then in Texas uh if you are supplying online sales then it's excluded so as long as you're closed to the public and you're you know employing the the safety um you know the health health regulations so yeah so we're still operating I mean we have a half staff in Texas so that we can keep people as far away from each other as possible um so they're way more than six feet apart from each other um but yeah I mean we're we're actually doing okay and you know if you go look at Google Trends you'll see that you know up there with toilet paper is uh how to knit you know people are we're getting more and more new customers in fact we're launching on April 1 um a typically they call it a knitalong is when a whole bunch of people get together and they knit on the same project at the same time well we've been planning for about two years to do a shital where we have custom toilet paper you telling us about that Laura you you bring this up every opportunity you get you know what I am like I had this idea forever ago I'm not jumping on the toilet paper bandwagon but anyway so we're launching our along next week we've got um there's a yarn called comfort that we're going to be uh using so we're really excited sounds great William this is uh your first time with us uh in a while uh how have things been going for for you and your business is it uh is it operating well that's always a question isn't it Lauren no it's not you have a great business oh you know it's interesting it has been a while I we were very harried in January and February probably absolutely the best start to a year we've ever had which was a real blessing and and why was that what was going on that um you know I think some of the things we've talked about in previous episodes where we set up to scale where we have a new CEO in place our systems are uh taught rather than caught all that that y wheel finally hit a point where it was turning if that makes sense so it's not that January 1st everybody decides for their New Year's resolution no we're used to that that that happens every year no everyone's lose everyone's gonna lose 10 pounds and and balance their checkbook and hire that new staff person you know that that's very normal surge for us I'm talking January February over previous January februaries much much higher uh you know we were bemoaning the fact that we might not have a March that was 20 or 25% better than last March and boy I'd like to eat my words so what happened we're in a very Uncharted Territory Lauren for a couple reasons and I want to learn from you all in this one we've never been through a downturn in charitable giving so we started in the Great Recession I started I I'm the idiot that quit a stable job and started a new small business that was a new idea for churches in the middle of the worst recession we've ever seen and so we came through that and in a lot of ways it was helpful because we started small when there was little business and we could learn our trade um but I don't know the coraly of if giving drops by 10% then our business drops by this percent I I don't know that coraly at all and and then compounding that ignorance is you know the the way I think you tell the future is by looking in the past right you it's pretty repetitive and uh so you look to the past and say when has this happened for and so much of this everybody says well we're in Uncharted ground we're Uncharted ground there is never in human history been a time when people of Faith all faiths everywhere have been restricted from gathering for a number of weeks that's never ever ever happened so there's no real way to know I mean obviously if they're not meeting they're not hiring if they're not hiring they're not hiring me so we we know that and we're we're built we can withstand a blizzard easy uh we're built to withstand a winter I I don't quite know what happens if it's really an ice age that that's a that's kind of the three you know if you follow the former preacher with metaphors that's kind of the three phases we're looking at and I think it looks more like winter to us so now you have no Revenue coming in at all essentially that's right well we've got revenue coming in because we build things but we have no sales coming in so in May and in June we'll feel that right um but what that means is we we decided because we have been careful with our cash um we've said okay serve your clients as best you can but even even the searches we're doing right now uh most people are like let's wait till we can interview the guy face to face you know so everything sort of hit pause and now we've taken uh a time to say all right here's where we're going to plant seed and the fruit will come later and so we've spent you know I was just going to say how interesting that they want to you face to face when there's the potential and I know that's an isolated case but there's the potential that the new church is more online and more digital than ever that's the trendy thing to say but I think you dead wrong interesting so so not to get all scriptural on you but but whether you're Jewish or Christian the creative creation narrative in Genesis starts with uh God creates the heavens and the Earth he creates light and he says that's really good and it's a benediction this is good and then he creates the Earth and he says it's good and it goes through several things he gets to creating us humans and looks at us and says that's very good so there are all these benedictions good good good good good the first malediction the first curse in the Jewish and Christian scriptures the first thing God says this is not good he says it is not good for you all to be alone there's a thing in the people that we work with that there you can't replicate physical human connection and I don't know if you guys have noticed it but there are more people walking up and down our sidewalks at the beginning and end of the day right now people are just dying to see each other even from six feet away whether it's writing the messages on the sidewalk and chalk for people or that you know virtual has been awesome and in a lot of ways I'm so thankful that this didn't hit until the church was ready to go online and giving Could Happen digitally and all those things but it's it's really a Band-Aid it's just it's just a bridge and I I predict that when this is over there will be a storm surge of attendance at uh religious gatherings see that is so interesting because and and I don't mean to sound sacrilegious but you know our industry the knitting industry um is is a religion in its own right you know if if if you will I mean people you know I mean we all worship together we kind of get together it's um it's meditative you know blah blah blah but what what we're seeing because our industry is very community and in-person focused as well you know it's just knitting clubs knitting groups knitting guilds you know all these events all that kind of stuff but we're seeing this new model of of the hybrid really taking hold where um we're using digital you know Instagram live and all these digital Technologies we don't think they're going to go away we think that it's going to end up and because so many of the small businesses and the small gathering places we think are going to go away that it's going to have to end up being a mix of you have to have a good digital presence um and be have a good digital personality plus you have to be somebody who is warm and welcoming in person so in our industry I do see the Resurgence of people flocking to the shops you know to our churches if you will but we think that there's some really Innovative interesting things going to be happening um digital wise because you know as you know and as we all know this isn't going to go away I mean this is the virus stuff is is here to stay first of all totally agree with you there will be some things in our clients work that will go digital I I think a lot of uh committee meetings I think of a lot of small group stuff I think of the cost effectiveness of doing uh a children's ministry online rather than having a thousand volunteers and letting people do it in their homes which connects families so there are a lot of cool Innovations that'll come but the Baseline of gathering together like the oldest word for church is the Gathering so like that's just not going to stop so so for us it bifurcates there's the really big churches and it's thousands of people Gathering well they're going to have a whole different uh mindset than the normal church so normal Church in America is a 100 people that get together this is not a massive business this is eight or nine families that all have cousins related to one another and it would be like telling them to do family dinner online which we tried doing last week and it's better than nothing but it's it's still just a a bridge so William what does this mean for you where where do you stand is your business still operating did you have to lay people off what's going on not clear yet uh you know the the cares act I guess is the right word for it that they're still debating in the house that the Senate passed has a a big effect on us I know it's uh reading the update this morning there's a lot of consensus that maybe it's not enough but it's certainly a help uh we built cash reserves for crises frankly I don't know I mean I've sat and beat myself up Lauren over and over and over William why didn't you build five years of cash reserves or 10 you know some ridiculous pile of money and it's because I was Branson how I totally built beat myself up listen we have a but I sit and beat myself up and say why didn't I see this coming well we have all these if William's plane went down this is how it works and it's going to work fine if we lost three Consultants this is how it work if there were a PR nightmare this is how it would work we never foresaw what if churches couldn't meet for 6 eight weeks so we're like Flying Blind Lauren so I don't know I do know that on the other side of this there's going to be uh a massive need for a different kind of leader at the large church is going to have to be somebody who can preach from their iPhone with their kids hanging off their neck like Jimmy Fallon's doing right now and command a room and that's going to be different and they're going to have to be like online kids pastors and nobody knows how to hire for that in our school practice schools move slightly faster than glaciers barely right so they have been the last to the party on online education unless you go to you know University of Phoenix or one of the newer kids and all these old established schools that hire us are having to find a new kind of Headmaster that can think through a digital lens so I think our business is very bullish once we get through this Chasm I don't know how long the chasm is so we're trying to figure that out and does that mean layoffs or furlows or all kinds of creative things and fortunately the the help that the government is providing is offering some help I like everybody I wish it were more but it is some help Dana I think I heard you start to say you you've been beating yourself up uh over not planning for something like this what what were you thinking so you know why didn't I have three months of cash Reserve ready to go why didn't I work harder why didn't I make more Mone money why was I tired right um why didn't I have you know if I would have could have should have for like three or four days after the executive order was passed it was to open or not to open to stay open or not stay open um and after speaking with my mentor the business Community here in Mentor Detroit has been amazing speaking with um other Goldman Sachs Alum um and they said you're asking the wrong question question isn't to open not to stay open you're going to stay open right but the question is who is Peril boy once you reopen and how do you keep and engage your customers while they're away and so that's what I've been working on it's you know doing the work we similarly to William we don't have any Revenue you know if and we can't operate and not be within six feet of our customers so if we can't be within six feet of our customers um we have to close so um it's a matter of okay how long does this go and how do you keep your customers engaged a lot of people said well Dana why don't you do gift cards online you know my guests don't want to pay two three weeks in advance for their service you know they want to get their service pay and go right so um what I'm working on now is Who is per Boyd when when we reopen and um I'm focused more on looking forward um because I know we're going to be jammed we've had customers email us and say I hope you guys are ready have you thought about things you might be able to do to help during this period i everybody I know is a little bit concerned about how quickly their hair is growing and and what they're going to do about that before their next Zoom call my favorite tweet so far is I I guess we're two weeks from finding out what everybody's hair color really is I guess hair color you know is not the biggest it's just for us it's a matter of just doing it right just the doing it because my guests come to me to do their hair right so whereas other people do their hair every day at home sometimes my guests come to me and to get their hair done so what I'm thinking about doing and maybe the time will allow for this is doing hair care kits at home which they can pick up or we can ship um but again that takes time so I've got this the trial kids coming to me right now um from Texas and seeing what that looks like you know does it work CU I've got to try it on myself first um and then if it works out great then we can start doing that depending on how long this goes so if it goes until April 13th we don't have enough time right I don't have enough time to do that but if it goes as long as as people say it's going to go I I will have time for that again the focus for me is looking forward right and just saying who is purely Boyd are we a company that ships and gives does videos on Hair Care at home are we a company that modifies their processes and adds new treatments and services for when we reopen time will tell can you do both we can but again I'm the type of business that you know I don't want you to do your hair at home because we can do it better in the salon so if I'm focusing on I might change the narrative from doing your hair at home to hey you're traveling this is what you can do when you're away but when you come back come to us right so that's I don't want to do hey hey everybody you know don't come to us anymore here's what you could do at home I'd rather say hey if you're going on a triump and can't get to us here's what you can do so that might be the Avenue once we reopen that's exactly what we're faced with so so like for us um I don't want to overp spiritual things but the worship service is the echo of Heaven for people who believe whether that's a Muslim Christian Jewish person and it's it's discombobulated and it's human so it's not perfect but it's the echo well now with online we're having to do the echo of the Echo and that's kind of how we're Fring it this is the best thing possible for now but it in no way replaces the fundamental need for the service itself exactly yep that's my thing in no way and and I've had guests say to me you know I would do my hair at home but you guys do it better and that's it I mean that's it you can do it I you know having a style of stand behind you and do your hair is very different than you raising your arms up and having to do your hair you know in the back and that will always be the case but maybe there's an opportunity to just help people get through this period you know here's some tricks just for now agreed but time may not allow for it right so if I had known in January then on March 15th that the governor was going to shut it down oh I would have had kits and bags and brushes and everything videos posted and everything ready but if it goes to where the executive order said till April 13th I don't have time I I I wouldn't bet the house on April 13th being the uh the time exactly so exactly so what I'm doing is saying okay it's going to be longer how can we get these Hair Care kits out and then say okay if it is going to be longer or not how do we take the Hair Care kits and say hair on the go so when you can't get to us Dana um is anybody doing how to make your own hair care kit at home kind of is anybody leading you know everybody right now is making their own antibacterial soap or whatever or their own sprays has anybody done a whole how to okay using the stuff that you have in your house no no no no no no you're you're talking about black women in their hair they're not they would they're they are going to go to the store and get shampoo before they try to to make something in their home hand sanitizer difference two ingredients aloe vera and alcohol and it evaporates and you're done when you're talking about putting something in your hair they want to know and go to a trusted brand that they know even during a even during a pandemic absolutely some women are going to wear protective styles until it's time to come out right and then come to perly boy and get their hair done right so they again it's understanding the hair culture for my market is very different we can't we can't wash our hair every day it would break off be dry and brittle it would be a mess right the natural oils in our hair help preserve our hair but you're not supposed to keep the natural oils in your hair for weeks and weeks and weeks at a time so if I could get a hair kit together in the next two weeks I'm okay it's not as soon as it would have been helpful but even for me I'm going to the store and buying shampoo I would never mix anything in my house and I'm pretty stocked um to put on my hair thinking you know and risk damaging it for when this is over I'd like to talk a little bit about your employees and how you're dealing with them um how stressed out they are Laura I gather some of your employees may may actually have even been sick with the Corona virus um what's it been like with your employees how stressed are they you know it's funny that you asked that because I wanted to ask the same question um I that's one of the things that I'm really struggling with is that I am not panicking about this and it's actually causing me a lot of anxiety to that I don't have anxiety and I don't know what's wrong with me you know some of my employees that are healthy that are coming in and working um you know are just freaking out and I don't understand what people are freaking out about um especially for for us you know they still have their jobs we are doing really well right now nobody's sick back in January we went to a um a big trade show with probably about 15,000 people in one hotel in New York and I I'm venturing that about a third of the people got really ill for a week or two with you know some sort of flu we didn't know what it was at the time um and then we brought it back to the office and then everybody at the office was sick and so we kind of collectively think that this has already run through our office a few months ago and so we don't really have anybody that's ill right now um you know I was going to ask Dana and and William what their experiences are and um that's one of the thing I'm I'm trying to work on is developing some empathy because I don't you know I I kind of thrive in chaos and in crisis um you know it's what I grew up in and it's my comfort zone so I'm having a little trouble not getting frustrated with people for freaking out I have a question Laura would you be less comfortable if your sales were 90% down um I definitely would and in Texas that business is losing money every single day absolutely um but but like overall like if it's not just like Texas if if if just looking at the numbers and you saw whoa 90% would you I think that's what I guess yeah so I think that's my point I think you have a comfort of funding right you're you're making money um there's some Revenue coming in and I think that's part of the reason why you're not panicking I think you're spoton you know you're not panicking because you know yourself and I think you thrive not in chaos but I think you thrive in productive chaos right totally yes yeah well and that's but that's my question is we are doing okay and so we do have nobody's going to lose their job you know in fact we're actually understaffed right now and so I'm having trouble um identifying with the Panic that some of my employees are having when things are comfortable for them William what's your situation how stressed are your employees well it's hard to tell virtually isn't it that's the trick right um right now most of our team members either are very active in their church or have been on a church staff so they've all gone into crisis mode and have probably given me the most productive week we've had in years it's been amazing to see just how hard uh folks are working are they concerned about a a layoff I'm sure they are um I would be too I think what I'm having to do as a a a leader is on the one hand and and I think we're going to see this in our clients's needs they're going to need a senior leader who is better at the soft skills than ever because the the need for empathy the need for uh a a pastoral sense is going to be needed from every CEO in the world not just you know people who are pastors for a living so on the one hand I need to be pastoral and compassionate on the other hand I'm eternally optimistic everything every glass is half full and I have to be careful not to be panish with them so that if if something sudden were to happen or if we were to cross a line where we've got to make some really sudden changes they're not caught off guard saying wait we never we never saw this coming same page I'm on exactly the same page William yeah I'm I'm not my my staff is freaking out and several of them have threatened to quit they're Furlow but they're threatening to quit you're saying for good yes and why because they're not understanding why they're not getting paid throughout the pandemic they don't understand my managers do and that's really hard you know they've you know some of the comments have judged me as a business owner you know if you were a real business owner you'd be able to support us through this time if you know you knew how to manage money better you'd be able to support us through this time they're good answers to those questions Dana are are you struggling with that or do you feel comfortable with the answers you've given I feel comfortable with the answers I've given because they're honest answers there's nothing I'm hiding and there's nothing that's our culture right you know there's nothing that I'm hiding and there's nothing that I'm not willing to share um I just I'm I'm not taking it personally understand that they're uncomfortable extremely uncomfortable um and I have my managers who support me because I've explained to them and shared with them step by step what I'm doing and why I'm doing it um but my concern is that when we open we will be short staffed and my guests have said I hope you're ready when we when it's time to open because you're going to be swamped but you know my managers have told me they they don't really understand how the business works well it's that and they don't want to leave perly boy like they literally were saying to me the day before I made the decision we support you we love working here we did a check-in three days before everybody chimed in love working here love working with Dana love it love it love it love it love it and then this hit and now oh I want to quit I want to quit I want to quit it's Panic Dana are you are you fully up on the stimulus package that William was referring to it hasn't completely passed yet it hasn't been signed um but uh there may be help in that package for your business and for your employees do you know what you need to know yes and but the the concern with that is the timeline my staff wants money today and they want guarantees today so a loan disaster relief takes longer than today and so it's me my managers are doing a great job managing their demand and I'm doing all I can to get paperwork and everything I need to submit it also without hurting the business so I don't want to respond into a knee-jerk reaction and get aan and all of a sudden oh no right because I was panicking too i' signed up for something that probably didn't work out for me in the back end so it's about having these conversations with your accountants to making sure you know to extrapolate what this looks like over the next year William do you have any thoughts on that you I know you did a uh a Facebook live you've you've studied the uh the package and you're trying to help other businesses and other organizations understand what's in it do you have any advice for someone who's asking the question what do I do until I can apply for those loans and actually get them which could take who knows how long yeah well my all the guidance that we've gotten and I'm not the expert on this my our coo combed through all 880 pages and he's a Harvard NBA and the whole like all the things that I'm not so he's the one that should answer the questions but everything we're seeing is that despite the bureaucracy that is undoubtedly coming the message from the SBA to local lenders is very clear get money in people's hands quickly in fact I went ahead and reached out to our Banker before the thing passed and they already had things to us so I I think it's going to be quicker than than the ordinary bureaucratic sit on hold for ever kind of thing the reason we took great interest in it it started with a personal interest of what if I'm going to have to pay the backend tax of this2 trillion dollar thing later I might as well enjoy the front end now so what what can how can this help our business but on about Saturday or Sunday of last week uh nonprofits and 501 c3s and churches were all added into the bill they were previously not included well this is a Lifeline to the normal Church of 100 where payrolls 65% of their overhead uh so we did a Facebook live and if you go to Facebook and just type in Vander Blum and and you can spell it however you want then you'll find a link there we set up a separate website to pool resources on this covid uh and it's everything from how to do remote meetings to this SBA bill is church c19.com and uh there you'll find an hourlong detailed presentation on how how do you calculate what you're actually going to get from the government how do you go about applying for it it's very granular uh if you're the semi add CEO find someone else on your staff to watch it but uh we Lauren it it was this week we've had five times the traffic on our website of any other week ever and it all goes back to that Facebook live event because there you can search all over for what does this bill mean and you'll find a 600w blog post here or there with a sentence or two for businesses but nobody's really dug into it yet I'm sure there'll be others but but as the time as we did our Facebook live nobody else had done it and it and it really caught on so that's where I'd Point people thank you I'm gonna go watch that today it you can also find a link to it in today's 21 hats Morning Report uh if you haven't subscribed to that you can do so at uh 21h hats.com and Lauren just sorry you told us to talk over each other so I will I I was talking Co been trying talking to my co today and and he said he's shocked how many accountants lawyers and CFOs are calling him asking him for more guidance because apparently he got it right and the stuff that's coming out out now from Inc and from eny it all is very congruent with what we put out there so we're not lawyers we're not accountants but but I think it would be helpful well you have a direct line to God so I think it should be right hey that does it that does it yeah Laura did you have a question for me when we were talking earlier I thought you might have you know I was just going to ask have you done a GoFundMe or anything you know we've seen that with some of the smaller shops um the retail stores that have had to close in our industry you so they're just putting up a hey give me money yeah so I've seen them um and their numbers are dismal I've seen a couple of them here and you know they're asking for a thousand they've got $25 $100 so like but then you feel you confident that you're on top of the um the stimulus package and know what you need to do there yes you know this has not been a downtime are you doing it all yourself or are you getting help I'm doing it all myself so it's webinar after Facebook live after conference call after and I have to say the Detroit Community has been amazing about getting the information out getting the answers to your question as quickly as possible I applied for the Detroit stabilization Grant on a Friday was awarded $2,500 on Wednesday so they're not you know they're not wasting any time um landlords are really stepping up um some of them are some of them aren't I saw Dan Gilbert and Bedrock are uh are putting off uh rent payments are are you in a Bedrock property I am not um but my landlord in Midtown is amazing um and so you know I'm I'm not too concerned about their um their Compassion or you know what they'll be willing to work out with me during this time so um yeah I just the the response time here for people has been really good um I literally just got an email saying hey the state of Michigan now has a small business grant in Loan program um organized by County the application just went live about 5 minutes ago so okay Dana you know apply for that so there's just been so much information about how you can get through this um my biggest things are you know my loans and my my people and my rent I don't want to take out another loan in addition to the loan I have I want to consolidate and move forward and I don't know if that's an option for me now um so it's just about doing the homework and finding out what is the best sit you know situation that works for per Boyd going forward I'm really worried about making a decision that will hurt me in the long run even though the disaster Alan I don't think it will it's just one more thing and I just would rather just weigh my options carefully and then pull the trigger I don't think anybody would argue with that and obviously we will continue to uh to track the decisions that all of you make uh in the weeks that come we're out of time uh needless to say we will be discussing all of this lots more thank you for your time today my thanks to Dana White William Vander blumen and Laura Xander be careful out there everybody thanks Lauren Lauren thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman 21h hats.com see you next time [Music]