In this episode, Jason Miller interviews Spike Lord, President of Lord and Son Construction, Inc. and Ryan Chavers, Director of Operations, about a Fort Walton Beach, Florida construction company built on decades of steady work, long careers and loyalty. They explore the family business’s history, the culture that has kept people with the company for decades and why an Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP) became the right path for preserving the company’s legacy and preparing for the next generation.

Spike and Ryan share their firsthand experience navigating the ESOP transaction, from planning and choosing experienced advisors to understanding the financial responsibility of the transition and shifting from an employee mindset to an ownership mindset. They discuss the advantages and benefits of an ESOP, including business succession and giving employees a greater stake in the future.

Now on the other side of the transaction, they share lessons for business owners considering employee ownership. Their advice: educate yourself, learn from other ESOP companies, surround yourself with experienced advisors and understand the financial and operational considerations involved in the transition.

Considering an ESOP for your business? Learn how thoughtful ESOP planning and experienced advisory support can help you evaluate the path to employee ownership, navigate the transition and build a stronger future for your company and its people.

View Doeren Mayhew's ESOP advisory services:

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About Journey to an ESOP & Beyond

ESOPs are gaining traction. In the "Journey to an ESOP & Beyond” podcast, Phillip Hayes explains the process of the ESOP transaction and addresses ESOPs from a business owner’s perspective. The "ESOP Guy" illuminates the simplicity of ESOPs as he debunks common misconceptions that ESOPs are immensely costly and complicated.

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September 18, 2026  Episode TeaserJason Miller — 0:00Give us some insight into the history of Lord and Son, and then walk us through how you arrived at wanting to explore employee ownership as the next chapter for the company. Welcome and Meet the GuestsJason Miller — 0:20Welcome back, everyone, to the Journey to an ESOP and Beyond podcast, where we seek to make all things related to employee stock ownership plans both accessible and understandable. I'm your host today, Jason Miller, and I have with me two very special guests. We're going to hear their story and their journey to employee ownership.So, Spike and Ryan, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourselves to our audience, that would be great.Spike Lord — 0:42I'm Spike Lord. Thank you for having us, Jason. I'm president of Lord and Son. I've been working here since I was 13 years old. I started digging ditches, worked my way up, and now I kind of sit at the head of the table. That's a little bit about me.Ryan Chavers — 1:02I'm Ryan Chavers. I'm the director of operations. I've been at Lord and Son for almost 30 years now. I started with the company when I was in college as an intern, digging ditches, operating wheelbarrows, and that kind of stuff. I've been fortunate to learn all the facets of the company as my time has progressed, so I'm excited to be here.Jason Miller — 1:27Thank you. And gentlemen, I'm detecting a theme that it has to start with digging ditches. Did you guys start on the same ditch, or is that where you originally met?Ryan Chavers — 1:36We were a few years apart, I think, in the ditch-digging business. I think our first job together was over the summer. It was a school renovation. Spike was the project manager on the job, and I was just the lowly new laborer who was hired for the summer.It kind of progressed from there. Over the summer, I moved up the ladder a little bit after I figured out how to use the backhoe, the shovel, and the wheelbarrow. I just kind of progressed with the superintendent. Then I started taking all of his notes and doing his time cards. He quickly realized and shoved off all the paperwork to me that I could spell and write and some of that. So, it's progressed from there.Jason Miller — 2:21Very good. And Spike, I know that I've shared this with you. There's another individual who I thought had the coolest name ever until I met you. And then, you know, you still have taken the cake and are at the top of the list as Spike Lord. I appreciate that.But if you would, give us some insight into the history of Lord and Son, and then walk us through how you arrived at wanting to explore employee ownership as the next chapter for the company.How Lord and Son Construction StartedSpike Lord — 2:53Okay. So, whenever I was eight years old, my mom and dad moved to Fort Walton Beach, Florida. My dad worked for a developer who owned Sandestin at the time. So, my dad arrived here in Fort Walton, and he was going to be in charge of all of their construction at 35 or 34 years old.That particular LLC went bankrupt. So, we got here, or had not been here very long at all, and the company was bankrupt. They had an option to either move to Ormond Beach or Sea Palms, I believe, and work for the same development group.My mom and dad—and, to be honest with you, my mother used to love to say this—she was the reason why Lord and Son was in business because she really supported my dad. He'd always wanted to do his own thing, and so she supported him in that. She said, "Levin, let's try it."To hear my dad tell the story, he truly didn't know anything about a hollow metal door jamb or any of that kind of stuff. He was green to the whole commercial construction arena and actually got a loan from my grandmother of $20,000. So, they started in business.As luck would have it, we had a hurricane come through here within a few months of him starting in business. It's hard to see that as a blessing, but it was a blessing for somebody in the construction business because Eglin Air Force Base is right here adjacent to us, and we've got Hurlburt Field close to us as well.It's not like it is today, where there's a ton of contractors in the area. There were maybe four or five contractors in the area, so there was plenty of work to go around. My dad got his first bond. Lloyd Waldorf was instrumental in him starting his business as well. So, he got his first bond to be able to bid a job at Eglin Air Force Base, and he was off to the races.For probably the first 20 years, I would say 75% of the work that we did was at Eglin Air Force Base. For the longest time, my dad was the estimator, project manager, and had a few superintendents. He did it all.Then he started hiring, as you do when you're trying to grow, and hired a guy by the name of John Clump who started with my dad maybe a year after he'd been in business. Literally, that guy retired with us. He worked for somebody else for a brief moment, but pretty much his entire professional career, much like Ryan, was with this company.So, yeah, my dad was—you know, he used to always complain about not having any luck whenever he'd go to a casino. I would always tell him, "But Dad, you were so lucky in life, man." Because that's truly something that I have come to understand. Obviously, you have to work hard and go get it and all that stuff, but there's a certain amount of luck involved to have what we have, anyway.I've seen that in a multitude of things. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.Anyway, that's kind of how it all started. We just finished a $90 million school in Crestview. Ryan finished a $75 million school in Loxley, Alabama, last year.To go from the first million-dollar job that we got—we were probably in business for 15 years before we got a million-dollar job. I mean, I don't know that that's exactly right, but it probably ain't far from right.So, how we have been able to grow in the last 10 years or so, and my dad got to see that, which was just awesome. I think that's been one of the things that was really cool—that he got to see it. For the longest time, any piece of paper that came into this office crossed his desk, and any piece of paper that left this office crossed his desk.That prohibited us from a lot of growth for many years because if my dad couldn't put his arms around it, he didn't want to do it. He started kind of stepping back and letting Ryan and me run the show and venture out. There's been a lot of growth in the last 10 years for sure. Especially in the last five, there's been tremendous growth.But that's kind of how we started and where we're at.Building a Stay-for-Decades CultureJason Miller — 8:42We talk a lot on the podcast, or we have talked a lot this year, about owners becoming bottlenecks. And it sounds like that was an example of success and quality control and the start of a culture and a legacy that keeps many people working there for decades at your company.But there was a limitation that he identified and allowed himself to let go of to create that opportunity and see what's happened in the last 10 years. That's something that I would encourage a lot of our listeners to hear and think about, examining for themselves and following that example.Ryan, what can you share with us about the team? I've just heard about four people—the two of you, John and Dad—that are multi-decade employees. Tell me a little bit about the culture that you believe keeps everyone there.Ryan Chavers — 9:49Yeah, you know, it's a family-owned business. It's always been a family-owned business, and it's always going to be a family-owned business.There are several people, you know, when I hired on, I was always the young kid, the whippersnapper, up-and-coming. Well, now with gray hair, I'm finding myself; I'm one of the old people.We've got an estimator that's been here probably 32 years-ish now. One of our superintendents that we started basically about the same time, he's just retiring—29, 30 years. There are several other people in the office that have been here in the 20- to 25-year range.What's really important to us is starting off at an entry-level position or learning, and then continuing to grow and reinvest in that person within the organization. So, it's really important to learn every facet of the task and basically build the toolbox that you get to draw from.As far as our culture, we really like to hire young, train them up, and then promote from within. That way, you know what you've got.We've gone the other route at times. A few times it's worked out really well. A few times, it just took a little while to realize that they did not fit the culture.Culture gets thrown around really easily, but I think that's a really unique aspect with Lord and Son—the culture. A lot of people just say, "Yeah, we're a family-run business. We operate like a family." But I mean, he's my best friend. So, it's really unique in that aspect.One of our PMs somehow had a wreck on the job site and hit a bollard. One of our other superintendents said, "Hey, use my mom's car. She's not using it for a while while your car gets fixed."Where are you going to find that in business? That's Lord and Son in a nutshell.Jason Miller — 11:55So, I wish we found it more often.Spike Lord — 11:57Yeah. I mean, you know, we are the type of people that if somebody's wife gets diagnosed with cancer or whatever, and she needs her husband with her to go through certain therapy or chemo, we try to provide an environment where we've got somebody to step in.Because, like he said, family—and people talk the talk. Man, you cannot talk the talk and not walk the walk. You've got to do it.And I tell you, for me—and I'm not going to steal your time here, but I'm going to treat somebody how I would want to be treated. I want somebody to be compassionate. Sometimes I think he and I might go overboard with that, and maybe we're taken advantage of, but you know what? That's okay.Ryan Chavers — 13:05You know, it is what it is. That's it. I mean, that's something your dad was really adamant about: treat people the way you want to be treated.If you can't do that, you can't expect it in return. So, we often probably erred on the side of overdoing it. It started from the top, from him, so we've both learned that along the way. It's ingrained.Jason Miller — 13:35Very moving, too. And I don't want to say that you haven't gone overboard in that regard, but what other people do doesn't change who you are. So, you can always show up who you are or as you are, and that's going to carry through.Unknown — 13:52Yeah.Jason Miller — 13:53So, I can already see why family and culture and business and all of that would naturally lead to you wanting to preserve that particular legacy and using the word legacy purposefully with the continuation of the next chapter of Lord and Son.The Real Reasons to Choose an ESOPJason Miller — 14:14I'd be very interested to know how you first heard about ESOPs and why that became an option for you, or when it became an option for you mentally. Walk us through that story.Spike Lord — 14:30So, a long time ago, I knew that I was going to sell this company to Ryan, to somebody within the company. Obviously, Ryan would be one of, if not the only one, that I was going to sell the company to.That was my first thought process. This family was built by my father, and this was forever ago. Since I was old enough to start thinking about this sort of thing, I knew that I was never going to sell to somebody else.I know this is going to sound nutty or stupid maybe, but even for $50 million, I just was not going to do it because I have to look at myself in the mirror every morning and know that I did the right thing.I've always felt that I've got a lot of people that I've got to take care of. We have a lot of people that we've got to take care of. There are so many people who are dependent upon us to put food on the table and be able to provide for their families and all that.So, first and foremost, I knew that that's kind of how this was going to go.I guess it was maybe 15 years ago or so that I heard about ESOPs, and I thought, "Hmm, well, that's intriguing. I need to learn more about that ESOP." But, to be honest with you, I never really did.I talked with some investment guys about it. We had a guy, Ryan Osborne, over in Pensacola at one point who was our investment guy, and I talked with him about it. Of course, you know, "Hey, yeah." And this was, like I said, 15 years ago.So, this is Spike's idea. My dad, Ryan, and I were having this conversation yesterday, actually. I don't think my dad would have ever been able to do an ESOP. The reason why is because it was his baby. He built it.Not that he didn't trust Ryan or Spike or Mike or whoever, but it was his, and it was my dad's kind of identity. I feel like he would think that if it wasn't his anymore, he would lose that identity.But me, as I said earlier, kind of following on his coattails or whatever, it's never really been mine. I've always felt like I was just kind of the steward of it. You know what I mean? Just, "Okay, I just need to take care of it until I can pass it on to the next person."So, once my pop passed and I knew, "Okay, now it's on me, and now I get to make that decision," that's when I mentioned it to Ryan, and he started listening to podcasts and whatnot.I mentioned it to Ray McGovern, who's our investment guy now, and he gave me a list of people to interview, and you were on that list.For me, what was the reason why we went ESOP? I wanted to make sure that the superintendent who worked in the field could go home and tell his wife, "Hey, honey, we own part of this company that I work for now."Albeit, I mean, it's a very small amount, but he is an owner of this company. So, that was a big deal for me.And then, selfishly, if I'm being honest, we haven't seen the fruits of this quite yet. I think it's starting to become ingrained, but I believe that it's going to take us to another level in efficiencies, in just making money.I think that once everybody really gets informed about what they have an opportunity for, it's going to change their mindset from, "I'm a worker. I work for these guys. They've got plenty of money," to, "Man, I own part of this deal. So, the more money I can save this company, the more money I can put in my pocket."Because, I mean, that's a tremendous motivator for 100% of the human population. I was going to say a smaller percentage, 98%, but I mean 100% of the people are motivated by money.Albeit that shouldn't be the only motivator, but most everybody's motivated by money.And then, last but not least, whenever you—and I think we might have heard it, or maybe we didn't—you told us that we would be able to pay Uncle Sam zero dollars at the end of the year. I promise you, my dad was hand-boning about that.So, I think, I mean, is there anything I left out?Ryan Chavers — 20:07Well, I mean, it just keeps the culture. It keeps what's been built intact. We don't get sold to an investment firm. We don't get sold to a competitor. There aren't independently wealthy people who work here who could buy the company and run it.It's really like the best way to make sure the legacy continues. I mean, we've got 51 years in business, and we're going to have another 51 years in business.And this is an absolutely amazing way to ensure that.And, as Spike said, he's a steward of the company. Being an ESOP, the people get to drive the ship, so to speak, drive the bus. That's what you are. You're keeping it between the lanes and making sure that all the decisions that are made are in the best interest of the people that work for you and are the owners of the company.So, it's no longer a "me" or "I" type decision. It's a "we" decision. And that ESOP has really helped ensure that stays at the forefront.Hiring Pros and Dodging ESOP PitfallsJason Miller — 21:20Name one thing that surprised you most throughout the process, from when you decided, "Let's explore this," to "This is the way that we want to go." And now we're in it. What was one of the most surprising things that happened?Just one. I'll give you a few minutes. You can name as many as you like.Ryan Chavers — 21:42So, I mean, we started talking about it in earnest maybe this time last year. Somewhere about a year in the thought process, we started interviewing firms to help us.It was very clear that we needed a consultant or somebody to lead us through the process that had been there and done that. Because we always say, "Well, we don't know, we don't know." That's a horrible method to take when doing something of this magnitude.So, we started interviewing companies. I was listening to a lot of podcasts and reading a lot of information online.A common theme kept coming back: there are professionals out there who know the inner workings and how it should look, and you need to make sure you team up with one of them.That was really, really important—to hear people say it and then see that we did it, and then see the success that we were reaping through the process. It's like, "Okay, we did really well."I went out to that NCEO forum about two weeks ago, and you always hear the horror stories about how companies did not follow that process. Several podcasts—I think you guys even mentioned on some of your podcasts, Jim McKenzie—said that there are bad ways; there are bad ESOPs that are formed.I sat across the table from some of these people hearing their stories, and I'mjust like, "Thank God that we had the foresight to do it."Luckily, Spike brought myself and Paige into the fold from day one. We sat in every meeting, heard every bit of information, and looked at every number.So, it's like the experience base that we're building; man, we could hit the ground running.It was really unique, I think, in that instance that we did it that way.Spike Lord — 23:33I mean, there's just so many different things. Several things came to mind, but I think the one thing that pops out for me that surprised me, you know, I had asked my CPA, Jody Henderson, "Jody, what do you think about ESOPs?""No." And I mean, one of my best buddies, "No, you don't want to go ESOP."I'm like, "Why?"And the first thing he said was, "Dude, it's going to cost you an arm and a leg. I mean, it is outrageously expensive. You guys aren't big enough. You don't need to do it."Of course, I took that information for what it was, and I continued to move down the path that we were moving down.So, I guess that is one of the surprises for me. Is it expensive? Sure, it is. But, you know, the whole Uncle Sam thing and not paying taxes and stuff, I mean, you look at it on the grand scale, what do Spike and his dad do all day? Well, they run the business." And there's a lot that goes into doing that that, if you're not privy to, you, it's going to be—and it should be—difficult. Nothing should be easy. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and we just have to work. We just have to dig, break out those shovels; it's not expensive.And for what you're doing and what you're getting and how you're setting up this company for the future, it's pennies. Pennies.Ryan Chavers — 24:51I think another crazy thing was the mind shift, at least for myself.Like halfway through the process, it was like, "Okay, I've always been a worker, a project manager." And then, halfway through the process, I'm like, "Holy crap, I've got to completely change my thought process."It's no longer in my little world or my set of projects. It's everything.And it's like, "Okay, what do Spike and his dad do all day? Well, they run the business." And there's a lot that goes into doing that that, if you're not privy to, you don't understand.By this process, it has really enlightened me and opened my eyes, and I'm like, "Wow, there is a tremendous amount of stuff that I don't know that I want to know more about and that I have to be doing just to make sure I'm driving the ship the way it needs to be driven."It's just mind-boggling, the opportunities that the ESOP presents to our company.Jason Miller — 25:58There's a theme in—I appreciate it in working with you and your team throughout that latter part of the process and up to and through.We often get questions from other owners that we're working with, like, "When do I let everybody in? When do I tell them?"We often say it's going to depend on your team and who's there and what function they're going to serve in this.But when you have a core team of people who are in it neck-deep with you, the earlier the better, so that you can experience as a team what it takes to get through the process.And to your point, Ryan, off the starting line with a bang, right?That presents a lot of opportunity for some tension because everyone's sitting around in different seats at that table with different, dare I say, motives heading into a transaction.I remember one time in particular that I'd like for you guys to comment on. I may have even mentioned it in another podcast before.The Spreadsheet Moment of TruthJason Miller — 27:11I know that the two of you were sitting there with Paige. We were at the tail end of negotiations, and Ryan, I could see the light bulb come on, and then the stress just settled on your shoulders as we were looking at where we were going to arrive.There was some tension there. And I don't want to say "tension" like it's a negative thing. It's just like there was some new weight that was being shifted a little bit from Spike's side of the table to your side of the table, and then there was a dollar figure on that.Ryan Chavers — 27:40Yeah.Jason Miller — 27:41Tell us about that particular meeting from your perspective because I know that you remember it too.Ryan Chavers — 27:45Oh, yeah. I mean, that was unique.I had ben involved in all the conversations, and there was a laundry list of different numbers being thrown around, all within the realm.Like I mentioned earlier about that shift between being a project manager and now helping run the business, that really hit home. It's like, "Holy crap. Now I've got to do it to pay Spike what the value of the company is and then also keep the company viable."In my head, I had just recently been privy to what the previous financials looked like. So, I went through and broke them all down.I'm like, "Okay, this is how much money we've cleared in a typical year. This is how much money we cleared in that year." And I knew the types of jobs that we had going on.I was like, "Dang, we are not going to be able to make these numbers work in the present," not knowing that I had doubled up some of the money. In my limited, quick learning, I had doubled up some costs in the spreadsheet.So, I'm thinking, "There's no way that we're going to be able—even in some of our best years, we're not, or we're barely getting to that thing."But then you look at a normal year, and it's like we're half of that. How in the world are we ever going to make that mark?And then, maybe in that meeting- I think it may have been in the next meeting- we started delving through the spreadsheet, and it was like, "Oh no, this is already included in your number."So, it's like, "Oh, damn." The light came on. It's like, "Okay, we can make this work."We own the ability to make it work by getting after it and doing the business. The more we get after it, the better the company performs. The more efficient we are, the more money we have available to pay Spike off, to put money back in the company, and continue to grow it.And seeing that we hadn't overloaded the wagon, yeah, it's going to be—and it should be—difficult. Nothing should be easy. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and we just have to work. We just have to dig, break out those shovels and dig.Spike Lord — 30:09So, yeah, I know from my perspective, I couldn't believe the number was where it was. Of course, I was super excited about that.I mean, I was kind of torn. Obviously, one side of me was like, "Woohoo, all right, man, this is going to be a manager, an employee, a worker," and stuff like that. It was always Spike and Mr. Lord. I don't think there was, or in Miss Gail, I don't think there was great."But I felt the weight my buddy was feeling, and the weight was on me too, because I chose to finance this deal for the employees. For me, I believe in them. I believe in what they can do.Obviously, there's a monetary value in that too, so I'm not just being Mr. Good Guy. But I also have the flexibility of being able to pump the brakes on deferring payments and whatnot because I want to see—obviously, I want to see—this company succeed.Kind of back to what we were talking about before with legacy and all that, man, I want this thing to continue for another 51 years or 100 years.So, it was weird for me. It was elation. I'm going to be able to take care of my family. Everything's going to be okay.But then there was also that side of me that was, "Oh my gosh, I've got to help make sure that I do everything in my power to make sure that they can be successful."Because if they're not successful, I don't get paid.Ryan Chavers — 31:51And so, that was a weird dynamic. We as a company had never—and any of the people here had never—thought about the possibility of ownership.It was always, "We're going to be a manager, an employee, a worker," and stuff like that. It was always Spike and Mr. Lord. I don't think there was, or in Miss Gail, I don't think there was ever any thought process that there could be something different.And then we're sitting at the table, and it's like, "Holy crap, man, now there'sa real possibility that we're going to be more than just a worker."And that was interesting. Multiple times, I'm just, "Happy to be here."You know, I mean, "What do you think about this, Ryan?""Well, man, I have no—I am not qualified to give input on that. I'm literally just happy to be here. Anything that comes out, man, is better than what I had yesterday."So, that was an interesting dynamic.Spike's like, "Heck yeah, man. I'm going to be good."And there was some tension. It wasn't from, "Oh man, I'm getting screwed." It was never any of that kind of tension. It was just like, "Man, we've got to get off the pot now, and we've got to make this work."Spike Lord — 33:11Well, and it seems to me, obviously—and I think this is along the lines of what you're saying—yeah, sure, I felt that tension of "We've got to make it work."But really, yeah, you're the guy. You're up, and so that is a lot of pressure.But the beautiful thing is you've got a ton of people around you.Ryan Chavers — 33:35I mean, we've got 10 other Ryans that work here.So, no, I wouldn't go that far, but we've got eight more. So, we're good. We're blessed in it and see where everybody falls in and out. I want to know where to focus some of my education to everybody—what it means and what it entails to be that. We're blessed in that area.Jason Miller — 33:46Thank you for sharing your perspectives.It's one of the things that comes up pretty frequently as other owners are evaluating this, and I don't know that it is appreciated as much until they experience it for themselves.While we try to articulate that responsibility, that load gets distributed through ownership. There might be a moment like this where you can feel it, you can see it, and you can experience it settling on someone else.But it doesn't always happen like that, and it doesn't always happen in one or two meetings. But it is very real.And I'll let that lead to my next question.What Changes After the DealJason Miller — 34:28Ryan, you had shared a little bit more about your experience with the NCEO forum. One of the things that you'd always mentioned in our follow-up meetings and toward the end is, "What do we need to be doing now? What's next? Where do we need to be?"And my response to you most of the time was just, "Get the work."Ryan ChaversVery true.Jason MillerShare with our listeners how your experience at the forum settled on you, and what you learned there about where you are now, just a few months after the transaction.Ryan Chavers — 34:58Yeah, we're in a great space, much like you said. I mean, you were spot-on every time: just do the work.I was in a unique spot where I'm learning to do the business. I'm learning all the facets that are outside and over and above being a project manager or anything like that.But now I've got to learn to run the business. And now that we're an ESOP, part of what I learned in this forum is that now we have to educate everybody else on what it means to be an owner.I've got an email I've drafted up to send out, and that's the question I want to ask everybody in this company: "What does it mean to you to be an owner?"And that information, I'm asking for it all back so I can analyze it and see where everybody falls in and out. I want to know where to focus some of my education for everybody—what it means and what it entails to be an owner.And then I want to, in the next year, I want that same answer back: "What does it mean now that you know what it has meant? What does it mean to you now?"And then, five years, "What does it mean to you to be an owner now?"That was really kind of stressed throughout the various sessions that I went to: educating your people, your other owners, what it means to be an owner, and how their actions impact the bottom line.Not every decision we make is—we've never been about the absolute bottom dollar. We never will.I mean, something we always say is we're going to hit singles. We're not looking to hit a home run. Ninety-nine percent of our jobs, they're singles.We just want to keep everybody employed, do the best job we can, be a good steward of everybody's money and be a good steward of the company's money and have something to put in the bank at the end of the day.And with the ESOP, that was really repeated a lot. There are certain metrics that get put in place with an ESOP where you can start realizing a little bit more of that money.Now you're hitting doubles a little more often, maybe a triple every once in a while. And then you get to share that with the people.But that was a really big topic: educating everybody on what it means to be an owner and kind of sharing some of the behind-the-scenes type stuff of the business, letting them know some of the financials.They don't need to know every nut and bolt, but they need to know the big picture.Being a family-owned business as we were for so long, that was Mr. Lord and Spike's realm. I didn't know any of that until I started this process with you, seeing the true numbers.Every once in a while I would see a balance sheet, but I didn't know what it meant, to be perfectly honest.And so now it's like, okay, we've got 48 other people that are in the same boat that I was. My task now is to educate them.So, when they're seeing or have an opportunity to make a decision, they know why they're making that decision.Jason Miller — 38:10Very well said.Well, gentlemen, I've got one last question for you.Advice for Owners Considering ESOPsJason Miller — 38:13What would you say to a listener who is exploring employee ownership, that is, where you were a year ago? What encouragement would you give them to stay the course, and what wisdom would you share?Spike Lord — 38:31Here we go.Jason Miller — 38:32Go ahead.Spike Lord — 38:34So, I would say—and I don't know how many Christian listeners you have on your podcast—but I would say prayer. Pray about it and ask for guidance that way because, for me, it just feels right.That would be one of the things.I didn't go to the conference, but it seems to me you want to get as much education as you possibly can before you step—I would say try to go to conferences before you start interviewing people.Because you're interviewing people and you really don't even know what questions to ask of those people.So, that would be a recommendation that I would make.And for me, I don't know if we're common or if we're abnormal or whatever, but for us, I feel like once we started down the road, power through. That's what was best in my mind, and I still believe it was the right way to do it.There was no sense in putting it off for two years. Initially, when we started talking, we were like, "Ah, we're really not sure when we want to do this. We just want to, like, start some dialogue."But it became very obvious to me that it's kind of like with most things: there's no better time than the present to get this thing going if you feel in your heart of hearts that's the way you want to go.Ryan Chavers — 40:23You surround yourself with really knowledgeable people about the topic.I would recommend that if you're exploring it or thinking about it, educate yourself. Listen to the multiple different resources that are out there.Some wonderful podcasts like yours and McKenzie's. I've listened to probably 10 different ESOP-related podcasts during the process of just trying to figure out what it means and hearing different people's takes on it, different views and pitfalls, success stories, and all that kind of stuff.There are a couple of major organizations that help educate about ESOPs. I highly recommend going to a forum or going to some of the regional-type functions that they have to just start exploring and talking with other like-minded people.Everybody's got their unique situation, but there's a lot of commonality in business. You can talk with people and say, "Where did they struggle? What was great?"So then you're not repeating the same pitfalls. I mean, you're going to have a tough one now and then, but at least you're not doing the same thing that somebody else has done and told you not to do it.There's just a wealth of information out there. And I think the first thing is just kind of starting with educating yourself on what an ESOP does.I didn't know. I started listening to you and McKenzie's podcast about halfway through when we started, and then I was like, "Well, man, there's got to be some background information."So, I started backing up to where there were other hosts that were doing it. And I was like, "Ah." So, I fast-forwarded to where you guys started, and it was like, "Okay, this is a really good foundation-building series."So, I listened to all of them, and it really started helping. As I'm sitting in the meetings with everybody talking through things, I was like, "Okay, this is starting to make a lot more sense. I see the why now behind a lot of the stuff."So, I would highly recommend people just kind of start doing their own research. And once you feel like there's a good fit, trust it.Final Thoughts and FarewellJason Miller — 42:24Very good.And gentlemen, thank you for your time today.And listeners, I'm really happy to be able to host Spike and Ryan so that you can hear directly from them. I'm glad that you're here listening to us.And Ryan, you'll be happy to know that when you pointed out that we did not share the podcast with you earlier in the process, now every person that we talk to—we've been chastised by clients before about not sharing this earlier.So, we're glad that listeners are here. And Ryan, thank you for telling us that we should be saying it earlier.Ryan ChaversYeah, you should. You should.Jason MillerBut thank you again for your time.Listeners, we'll catch you next time on the Journey to an ESOP and Beyond podcast.Thank you.

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S7EP36 - Interview with Lord and Sons Construction, Inc.

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