Selling Your Business? Why Nice Gets You More with William Ury, Co-Founder of the Harvard Negotiation Program

Hi there and welcome back to another edition of Built To Sell Radio, the podcast designed to help you punch above your weight in the negotiation to sell your company. I'm the executive producer, Colin Morgan, and today on the show, John is joined by William Yuri. William is the co-founder of the Harvard Program on negotiation and the International negotiation Network alongside former US President Jimmy Carter. He has also co-authored one of the world's all-time best selling books on negotiation, Getting to Yes. He's a heavyweight in the world of negotiations, especially when the stakes are high. And in today's episode, William provides a masterclass on negotiating the sale of your company. Without further ado, here is William Yuri. Enjoy. Will Yuri, welcome to Bue Radio. Oh, it's my pleasure, John. You know, your new book Possible, How We Survive and Thrive in an Age of conflict struck my attention because of the word conflict. And here's, here's what our listeners are, are, are feeling I think right now and, and are about to experience, and that is when they go to sell their company, they feel like it's a, a battle between us and them, right? Uh, because for entrepreneurs, they want to maximize the value of their company and get as much of that cash upfront. And, and they know the buyer, whether it's a strategic buyer or a private equity group, they want to do exactly the opposite, right? They want to pay the lowest and they wanna, you know, you know, pay. The least amount of cash up front and and get the owner to kind of earn their future uh in an earn out or or some, you know, structure. And so most of our listeners are coming at this as though like this is, this is us versus them. This is like a, you know, uh, either I win and he loses or or vice versa. What correction might you share with our listeners? Is that the right way to think about negotiation as you go into it? Well, it's one aspect of the negotiation. It's the aspect of claiming value, you know, like, OK, we're going to claim, you know, more for me means less for you. There are other aspects too. I can only imagine in that situation, which are, you know, your company is going to be in someone else's hands. Are you gonna continue working with the company? Are you going to continue that relationship? I, do you care about how much they How they treat your company, it's your baby that you built. Do you want them just to, you know, so it's like, there are other issues besides just who gets what. And, and if you just bring the issue of who's gonna, if the question is who's gonna win. You know, is it just gonna be you or the other side? It's either or. To some extent it might be asking like, asking the question, who's winning this marriage? Uh, you know, if you ask that question, you know, your marriage may be in some trouble. But, you know, obviously there is an aspect of, uh, of how do we divide the pie, but there might be an issue too of can we expand the pie so there's more for both of us, and particularly if there's any kind of ongoing relationship or if you care about what happens to your company afterwards. If it's just the money, then obviously it's more like just how do we divide the pie. But, but you need to think about. Before you sell, what do you really want here? What are your interests? What are your concerns? What are your needs? What do you want to do with your life? You know, and really, really think it through because Yeah, oftentimes we think we know what we want and it's just easy money, but what's behind the money? What do you want the money for? To really kind of think it through, the more you think through what you really want, the more likely you are to be able to get it. Yeah, it's a, it's a great point. I'm reminded of, of the old Warren Buffett sort of negotiation tactic, which is He focuses on one page, right? Like I want to get all of the, uh, my deal points out in one page and and I and I want the, you know, I wanna I wanna get to agreement with the other side on my one page that's written in plain spoken English, you know. Uh, and, and then I'll pass it on to the lawyers. And when you said like what kind of relationship do you want to have with the new owners, like, are you gonna work there for example? One of the things I've seen sellers, entrepreneurs do is keep things with their uh counterparts in the negotiation superficial to begin with and, and pass the role of bad cop off to their lawyer. And I'd be curious to know your thoughts on that. So, to say it a different way, you know, they're trying to protect their relationship with the, with the other side by keeping things sort of warm and collegial, knowing that behind the scenes they're, you know, asking their lawyer to play hard ass. What's your sense of that as a style? Well, I think there's something to be said for that because you want the relationship is gonna be obviously really important, especially, and so you want to protect that relationship and Uh, the lawyer can play the, the bad guy, or at least, I mean, whether it's a lawyer, you also want to think of someone who's got a, who understands the finances of it and can sell it best. And you know, like, for example, when I'm selling a book, for example, Um, you know, I want to keep a good relationship with the publisher. I may not want to get into a, you know, a, a, a kind of a, you know, uh, you know, OK, this is my demand, this is yours, and whatever. And so I understand that, but I use, I use an agent, for example, even though I'm, you know, supposedly a negotiator, uh, I, I use the agent precisely to do that, to shelter the relationship with the publisher, but also because the agent actually knows the market. And knows the knows that what sells and whatever, it's better than I do, and also because When, you know, it's like a little bit like selling a book, I can imagine you're selling your baby. You, you built this thing. It's not just money, it's like, it's, it's your love. It's a labor of love. You've built it, you've invested in it, you've got people investing in it. There's emotion in it, and if there's emotion in it. If the other side says, well, I'm not gonna pay that for it, you're gonna take it personally, right? And uh, so, so just to, just to kind of separate, distinguish those two things of the relationship and the monetary back and forth, I find it useful to, to, to use an agent, and I can see why, why someone who was selling their business might find it equally useful to have an agent. With them, working closely with them, so that they can focus on the relationship, and someone else can focus on the, some of the the back and forth that actually could actually generate some emotions. Yeah, I, I love this concept. In the world of selling a business, that agent is called an M&A professional and, and they are there to do exactly what you described, to create a marketplace and also sometimes be the bad cop and the And and protect or insulate the the owner. One of the ongoing sort of debates, I think among our uh audience is, should I tell my agent my bottom line. So the person negotiating for you and of course this case of a book, do you say to them, look, I won't take a penny less than X for an advance, you go get me the best deal you can, or do you, do you let them go without sort of saying your bottom line? Well, here's the thing. The first negotiation prior to the negotiation that is your negotiation with your agents. You, that is also a negotiation. Uh, and you have to understand that they might actually have an interest, for example, that they have an interest in, you know, having a deal rather than, you know, you know, you know, they may see things differently than you, you know, they may want to sell it quickly and take their time or whatever. So you may have slightly different incentives in that situation, understanding those upfront and developing a relationship of confidence. Finding the right agent, someone you can trust. So, yeah, uh, if you can trust them. You know, you really feel you have that? Yeah, you can tell them a little bit about your bottom line. If you don't feel like you can really, you know, you don't have that degree of trust with them, then at least be aware that when they bring back an offer to you, you know, that they actually, they have different incentives than you do. They want to sell quickly. Yeah, well, well said, it's uh it's it, you know, it's um. It's a great, it's a great piece of advice knowing and finding someone that you really deeply trust. You know, there's a concept impossible that I would love to have you elaborate on. And it kind of goes to this whole philosophical approach to negotiation at a high level and and the concept I'm talking about, I think it was chapter 2 or 3, I can't recall, but this notion of a victory speech and and writing it in advance, can you describe that story like how you came up with that idea and and what it might mean for our audience? Well, Yeah, it's, it's a thought experiment. And because oftentimes you're facing a situation which seems difficult. It's like you're gonna sell your business. I mean, it's, it's difficult. You don't know how you're gonna get there. You don't see how you get from here to there. But I find if you do this thought experiment of imagining yourself there already, you know, I like to climb mountains. Imagine yourself on top of the mountain already, and then think about how you got there. It actually is easier to get from there to here, and then you can find your way back from here to there. So it's kind of working backwards. And so, as a thought experiment, I like when I'm facing a difficult negotiation, um, you know, in, in the book, I gave one where, you know, I, I was trying to figure out how, uh, you know, Kim Jong-un, the dictator of North Korea, Donald Trump, the new president of the United States back in 2017, there was a risk of war, you know, what were their victory speeches? I, I like to write out. Imagine that the other side does exactly what you want them to do. The seller gives you the exact offer you want, right? Now imagine. Imagine that they have to go back to the people they care about their, their private equity, uh, you know, investors or, or, or their board of directors, whoever it is, they've got to go back and justify why they said yes to you. Think about what their victory speech is, cause it has to be a victory for them. They're gonna have to say, here are my three key talking points. This is why this is great for us. It's gonna do A, B, and C. Now imagine for a moment. That they're gonna get some pushback. They're gonna get some really tough questions, you know, uh, like, well, what about this? and did you give too much money and then what'd you do that? Think about what the best answers they could deliver. and then see your job having written the other side's victory speech, starting from the end, working backwards. See your job is helping them deliver that victory speech. Your job is to give them the ammunition, the arguments that they're gonna need to be able to persuade their constituents, the people they care about, and why about why it's a victory for them to accept your proposal. It's such a good point because no Private equity, you know, partner is gonna want to go back to their partnership and say, yeah, we just, you know, paid full price for this business and we, you know, we, we paid the the top end of the multiple range that you like, that's not the speech they want to give to their board member, but at the same time, obviously the seller wants that. So finding out how that Partner in the private equity group could could make the the the case to their board to the victory speech to their board out of interest, what was the victory speech in the 2017 Donald Trump, Kim Jong-un. Uh, example, what would the victory speech crafted? Yeah, well, for, for Trump, you know, I, I understood, you know, he had to be able to say, you know, what is he had to say I got the best deal ever, you know, this was the biggest deal ever historically, something that Obama couldn't do, Bush couldn't do, Clinton could do, I could do, you know, that, that, that, you know, he really prides himself as a, as a champion dealmaker, so that had to be #1. Number 2 was, I kept America safe, you know, uh, those missiles that that that Kim is testing the ICBMs to get to the US, whatever, they're not gonna get here. I kept America safe. And the third is, he really cares about this, and I didn't spend a penny, you know, those were the kind of, as I understood it, the kind of the three priorities, you know, that victory speech. Putting myself in Kim's shoes was harder because no one knew anything about Kim at that time. I mean, he was a new quantity, new leader, or whatever it is, and, and, uh, it was harder to find out. And so to do that, um, I went on the web and I said, does anyone know this is the kind of thing you face. Who knows something about the other side? What do they really want? And uh the only person I could find who knew anything about Kim was a retired American basketball player by the name of Dennis Rodman. Who had actually met Kim, you know, Kim turned out was a, you know, fan of the Chicago Bulls championship teams in the mid-nineties. And so I, then I made it my job, which is often the case. What you have to do is, you have to track this information down. I made it my job to try and, and meet with, with, with Rodman. And that wasn't easy, you know, it's kind of the seven degrees of separation and all that. But eventually, you know, I met with him. I got a meeting. I went to a friend, a friend of a friend, a friend. I went out to LA to have pizza with him. He wasn't there, the whole, the whole long story, but in the end, When I did get to meet with him, and he was kind of saying, Why do you need to talk to me? And I got a bad day, man. You know, you had to kind of go through, you have to go through this to kind of figure out. I said, but you're the only one who knows Kim. There might be a nuclear war here. We need to stop this. What can you tell me about him and his psychology and what he wants? And he said, Well, you know, I held his baby in my arms. I went out drinking with him. And one day he told me what his dream was. He said his dream was one day to walk down 5th Avenue. With Dennis Rodman, go to Madison Square Garden and watch the New York Knicks play the Chicago Bulls. Well, bingo, I thought, I mean that's how do we make that dream come true? You know, in other words, it showed that he was maybe willing to engage with the West, that even though he was very hostile, there was a secret kind of love affair going on there. And so that gave me enough to think about what his victory speech might be, and then to work with my colleagues to think about, OK, how do we get these two leaders together? How do we bring them together so that they don't go to war, but they each can claim victory to their respective constituencies. And that's, I think that's the job that you face when you're selling your company, which is, you gotta figure out what the other side really wants, what do they really care about, what's their dream? And then think about how you can Have their dream aligned with yours, which is selling your business in a good way. Am I, when I read possible, I interpreted that story 2017 to be theoretical. What I'm hearing you say is, no, you were actually in the room. Well, you were actually brokering that deal. Well, well, I don't want to, you know, actually one of the things about doing this work is you got to be very careful what you take any credit for. But I did engage and I went many times to Washington. I went many times to South Korea. My colleagues went to North Korea. We were engaged in trying to facilitate and, and, and help make that possible. Got it. And and how do you get that job out of it? I know you worked at Harvard and you're obviously a very famous author, but like how do you get hired to do that? Like what does somebody call you up and say, hey, we need help? Well, sometimes that happens in this case, no, it was, uh, you know, we were, we're entrepreneurs or social entrepreneurs. We're entrepreneurs of like, I was just really worried. I, I'd spent You know, I, I got my start working back in the days of the Cold War trying to kind of working in a project at Harvard on how to reduce the risk of nuclear war, and so I felt a little bit like Rip Van Winkle, you know, kind of woken up, well. Now we've got another risk of nuclear war here with North Korea and the US because even Trump, I mean, thought there was like a 50% chance of war. I mean, and a war that would be unfathomable, you know, the first use of nuclear weapons since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, millions that even in terms of the world economy, you know, like a huge percentage of the world's semiconductors are made in Seoul, you know, right? You know that would be demolished, Samsung, all those companies, so. So the consequences would be huge, and so, um, so I, I decided, OK, just like, you know, an entrepreneur, OK, how do we start, where do we start from and who knows, who knows Trump, who knows Kim? How do we begin to even, even if we have the victory speeches, how do you build that access, that credibility, that trust that allows you behind the scenes to support and facilitate a different outcome than going to war. Such an interesting, uh, career and I'm so fascinated. Are you, can I give you a couple of scenarios that our audience deals with and just get your reaction to them? I know you've got obviously a world of information and insight about negotiation, but maybe you haven't sold companies, but I think you'll be familiar with the kinds of situations. First situation is, is, uh, the other side in the case of selling a business will often attempt to, to get the business owner's number on the table. So they'll quietly or maybe over a drink or a lunch, they'll quietly say, kind of, what do you want for it? And, and, and, and the reason they're doing that, of course, is because they want the owner to go first. To say their number and, and then they'll put obviously a ceiling onto which they will never pay more. And we've got lots of examples of that. So, how if you were kind of advising a business owner. At a lunch or a dinner where the other side um kind of asks them for their bottom line or what do they want for it? What, what would you, how would you coach them to kind of stick handle around that question? Well, I wouldn't give them the, I wouldn't give them the number. I mean, first of all, The golden thing in negotiations is prepare, prepare, prepare. So before you even have that lunch or that dinner, you've got to prepare and maybe with your agent and think about it because anticipate that question, uh, and, and rehearse what's gonna, what's gonna be your response. But I think, you know, one way is that I want, you know, the, you know, the highest fair value for my business. You know, I, I, you know, I've really worked hard for it. I believe that this company has huge value. They can do this and that. So in other words, you put it in terms of your interests and in terms of criteria, but I wouldn't give them a number at that point because That's gonna put you in a, yeah, that that that that that's gonna be their ceiling and uh and, and, you know, you may not even know at this point, the negotiation is an exploration to find out what is the right value, right? What is the right value for this? And, and you, you don't wanna, you don't wanna start off by, by, by, by naming that number because maybe there's actually more value than you even anticipated for your business. But you've got to explore that. It matters also, you wanna, you wanna go through that exploratory process before you get to the numbers. Impossible, you refer to this thing called the circle of possibilities. Can you just elaborate on that idea? Yeah, it's just like it's the idea is so often we see conflicts, you know, they get enmeshed or whatever, it seems impossible, it seems difficult. I like to, like, around it, there's a circle of all the potential ways in which this could unfold. Some of them are negative, incidentally, you know, but, but a lot of them are positive possibilities. Like, it's like, it's like to really understand there's a field of possibility around it of all the ways this could play out with a range of possible numbers there in terms of value. And there's no reason to start off in the beginning by naming a number that just constrains that range for you. Yeah, I, I love this concept and cause I think we do myopically focus on like what's the number and what's the multiple and I think as you point out, there's such a range of, of possible scenarios including what what's gonna happen to my employees, what about the location, what about the brand and uh, you know, how am I gonna get my money? You know, there's an old famous saying in In M&A, I'm sure it probably exists in world peace as well, but it's something along the lines of, you know, you name the price, I'll set the terms, right, right, you can, you can have whatever number you want, but I'm gonna set the terms under which the deal is gonna get paid out and, uh, I don't know if you've heard anything similar, no, no, well that, well, you know, that's uh. I, I don't know see what would be the equivalent in in in world peace, but you know, it's like there's the old thing of like, uh, like, um. You know, two kids quarreling about a pie, like, uh, OK, you, you, you, you, uh, you divide the pie and then I decide I get first pick of which half I want, you know, and, uh, uh, so, so there is that, um, because price in turn. are both important, right? And, and actually they both determine value. You could have a high price, but if the terms are terrible, you know, the, the ultimate value. So, so don't get just locked in the number. It just, it's just a reminder of it's not, there are a lot of factors that go into determining what makes a good deal for you, and you want to think those through carefully beforehand and not just get fixated on the price. Yeah, well said, there is another concept that comes up a lot for founders as they approach the sale of their business, and it's referred to as retraining. Again, I'm sure it's something similar in in world peace, but the idea is that you come to terms, uh, in the sale of a business usually over what's called a letter of intent. A letter of intent is non-binding, there, you know, neither party or committed legally, but it Puts pretty good detail around the terms. So what's the sale price, uh, under how you're gonna get those, uh, the cash and Stocks versus, you know, currency etc. there's a lot of detail that goes to a lot of intent. And then there's this period where the seller has to sign away what's called a no shop clause, which means that the, the buyer has 60 days of diligence during which or 90 days during which you cannot negotiate with anybody else. It's an exclusivity period, right? So as you might imagine, the negotiation, the leverage in the negotiation goes from Really the owner of the business having lots of leverage to the buyer of the business during this diligence window having tons of leverage. And, and in many cases, the buyer uses that leverage to retrain. Uh, sometimes it's legitimate, they find something in diligence that they didn't expect or wasn't disclosed, but oftentimes it's illegitimate, meaning they're simply retrading because you've sort of gotten committed to the deal. Yeah. What possible sort of coaching would you give an owner who Who, who really thinks they're dealing with someone who's trying to retrade illegitimately. Well, the metaphor I like to use, uh, that kind of the the foundation of successful negotiation is the ability to to go to what I call the balcony. And the balcony is simply is imagining that you're negotiating on a stage. Part of your mind goes to a mental and emotional balcony overlooking that stage. It's a place of perspective of calm, where you can kind of remember what your key interests are and then see the labyrinth, you know, see your way through this labyrinth. And so, so at that moment, If you do that, uh, I mean, from the balcony, one of the things you really wanna ask yourself always in the negotiation is what's my batna? And that's, that's a term, you know, that Roger Fisher and I coined back and get for getting the yes, which is. What is your best alternative to a negotiated agreement? Your BATA. What's your best plan B? If you do not, are not able to make this particular sale, what are you gonna do to satisfy your interests? Are you gonna keep building the business? I, do you have another potential seller in mind or what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Understanding your batna is absolutely critical because batna actually is a key determinant of power. You understand your batna, and then from the balcony perspective, You need to understand the other side's Batna. What are they gonna do if they don't buy your business, right? And every negotiation takes place within the limits of what each side sees as their Batnas. Now, Batnas are perceived as well as real, right? So, so in in that situation that you just gave, The whole question of leverage is before you sign that that particular uh term with the MOI. You're batting is strong. You're saying, OK, if I don't deal with you, I'll deal with someone else, right? When you sign that in those 60 day period. The bat, your bat, uh, you know, becomes less focused because you don't have the alternative of, of trading it elsewhere, right? So in that moment you're gonna be more vulnerable. From the balcony perspective. You can kind of see, and one of the things to do when you're thinking that someone might be pulling that, you know, like retraining that situation, is Name the game. Like, OK, that's the game. When you name the game from a balcony perspective, you neutralize its effect on you. You say, ah, I can see, that's the tactic. I got it. OK. OK, you know, you, you see it as a play, rather than taking it personally and saying, oh, you know, I gotta, I gotta go with it. So just that ability to go to the balcony. And the thing is, if you're the If you're selling your baby, It's very easy for you. It's hard for you to go to the balcony. You take it so personally. You've got your, your expectations, your hopes, oh, you're doing it, you've been telling your friends, you're gonna do this. And then suddenly there's this chick. So, if you can, so use your agent, use your lawyer, use your friends, use your colleagues and say, hey, You know, Uh, you know, understand in this moment, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna make decisions that maybe are not in my best interest. Make sure you consult with them. Make sure that you, yourself, if you can limit your own authority to make decisions and say, you know, I can't make that decision without consulting. Just make sure you limit that so you give yourself that chance to go to the balcony, because so many times in negotiation, I find we make decisions on the spot that we later come to regret, because they are worse for us than our batman. Than our best alternative to negotiated agreement. You know, you always want to keep that in mind and say it's just 60 days. I've got to keep your alternatives open because having a good bat that gives you that confidence, that confidence to navigate through those tricky moments in the negotiation when When suddenly you get surprised by a sudden demand where they want 2 bites at that apple. Yeah, I think, I think this is so good. I, I, I, I read about the balcony and I loved it as a concept, uh, because I do think that disassociated, you know, sense of yourself looking in on the negotiation is is so is so powerful because emotions run really hot in this kind of negotiation because it's and it's interesting because um it's one-sided, here's what I mean, when you're selling a company, Um, it's an emotional expression of you as a person. It's like, it's, it's how you serve customers, your brand, your promise to, like, it's all you, and, and on the other side, it's very clinical. It's a private equity group. They don't buy beer business, they'll buy another business corporate, it's, it's just dollars and cents. It's not emotional for them. And so there's this huge mismatch in emotional temperature where the owner seller is highly emotive, you know, like very, very emotional about the experience, like giving away their baby, as you point out correctly. On the other side, it's very clinical, you know, almost mercenary. Yeah, so. The key thing is and Is that Before you negotiate with the other, The most important negotiation you have is with yourself. If we cannot influence ourselves, it's gonna be hard to influence the other. And, you know, the single biggest obstacle to me getting what I want in a negotiation, particularly when something's emotional, is not the difficult person on the other side of the table. It's the difficult person on this side of the table. It's me. It's the person I look at in the mirror every morning. So, negotiation turns out, particularly in these kinds of situations you're describing, to be an inside game. It's an inside game first. It goes from the inside out, which is why, you know, um, there's an old saying, when angry, you will make the best speech you will ever regret. You know, you know, when you're in a situation like that, you may make, you may make a preemptive concession that you shouldn't be making. You may be saying, yes, you know, because you're so excited, you know, or whatever it is, or you might react in another way. So just understanding that that's gonna be the case, that there's an asymmetry in the emotional, in the emotional stakes here. Set it up so that You've got someone else who's political, you know, maybe it's your M&A negotiators you were saying, you know, um, understand, ask your friends, ask your spouse, ask people that, hey, restrain me, you know, like, I don't know if you remember in the ancient uh Homer classic, uh, Ulysses, Odysseus. Odysseus knows that he's gonna be tempted by these sirens who are coming, these, these women, these angels are coming on this boat or whatever, and so he wants to hear their sounds. But he, he knows he's gonna do that. So he binds himself to the mast, and he instructs his crew, whatever you do, I'm gonna be saying, free me, free me, free me. Do not free me. Just keep me tied to that mast. And And maybe the owner has to do the same thing. Tie me up to the mast. I'm gonna be hearing all these sweet sounds about what to do, whatever, but whatever you do, do not take off those ropes until those 60 days are over. I love the analogy for sure. Another tactic, it's sort of similar but kind of different, uh, that the the buyer will use is an intimidation tactic. So they will, uh, you know, talking about their Batna as an example, uh, they'll say, you know, we, we really like your company, William. I think it's a great fit strategically for what we're doing, but remember we're Google or we're Apple. Uh, if we, if you don't wanna sell to us, that's fine. We'll go out and compete with you. How do you like the sound of that? So, accept our offer because it's the best you're gonna get, and if you turn it down, we're gonna go compete with you. Well, there you go. So one of the first thing you do is hear that, go to the balcony. Because name the game. The game is They're kind of it's kind of a threat, right and and uh name the game. And by naming the game, saying, OK, I understand this is how the game gets played. They're naming that. Neutralize its effect on you because you said by naming it, you say, OK, I, I, you know, that's that that this is why it's so useful before the negotiation. To rehearse To go to the balcony, and rehearse, and anticipate that they're gonna play that. Of course they're gonna do that, right? So when you, if you anticipate it, you name it, you say, OK, yeah, I know that's the game, whatever, and you, you mitigate its emotional impact on you going, 00, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose the business, right? So you keep your cool and you say, well, that's interesting. That's interesting. And, uh, and, you know, uh, I understand that you've got that, you know, you've got that possibility to do it. You know, I also have my Batna, which is I've, you know, maybe your Google, but there's also Beta and there's another tech company or whatever. And you know, I also have a bat, you have a Batna, we both understand it. Now let's look at what's the fair value for this business. So you kind of acknowledge it, you can even wink at them, you understand that that's the game. You can kind of, you know, say we, you know, I understand you've got a good alternative. We also have an alternative, which kind of just levels the playing field emotion a little bit. Now let's focus on, is there a good deal here that's good for you and good for us? And just go back to go back to the, go back to to the subject. Name it, don't, don't react to it. Mitigate its effect on you, and then go back to the focus of the conversation, which is what's the right number, what's the right deal here that's good for both sides. Yeah, it's a, it's a great point. I've got, I've got pages of notes. I wanted, I, I wanna end with one sort of personal reflection and maybe just have you, have you uh react to it. I've watched a couple of your videos. And, and from the moment the recording starts, you're smiling. And we screwed up in getting this, this interview scheduled, and our producer got you the wrong link and and you were 15 minutes late to start because we got you the wrong link. And instead of being angry with me and kind of whatever, you were smiling at me and think, oh, it's no big deal. Throughout this conversation, as much as I try to give you zingers or or hardcore, your instant reaction again for those not looking at the video, is this just like infectious smile. Where does that come from and how much of your negotiation skills come from just being positively disposed? Do, do you know what I'm asking? Yeah, I do. Well, I think it helps, uh, because conflicts, you know, they're, they can be irritating, they can be, you know, it's, it's tough, it gets emotional and, and the ability to, um, Meet animosity. With curiosity. In other words, the ability to just kind of like, well, that's interesting, you know, you know, you know, it's like, for example, when they pull that tactic of sighting their Batman. Well, that's interesting, you know, uh, it's like a, it's like, OK, I understand that it's, it's, uh, I just find it's uh. Let me just say this, there's so much in conflict and in these kind of situations where I can only imagine if I put myself in the shoes of a business owner, like you're selling your baby, all these things, so much stuff is at stake, you build up this for a long time, you know, it's uh it's so nerve-wracking. It's so thing that that the the ability that we tend to we tend to tense up. And we tend to avoid conflict, right? We, we avoid it, whatever. And what I'm just suggesting is maybe when you've got something really hard to do, like selling a company, the most important thing you can do first is relax. Cause you're not at your best when you're tense. You're not at your best when you're highly agitated. You're your best when you're relaxed, when you bring the spirit of play, which was probably the spirit that allowed you to create the company in the first place, you know, that spirit of creativity and imagination. And what I'm suggesting is you take those same The same qualities that allowed you to build your company of curiosity. Isn't that interesting? Creativity. Let's see if we can create a better deal here, collaboration and bring it to these difficult negotiations when you're selling your company. That's that's the art of being a possibilist. I was gonna say it's, it's, it's that goes back to the title of the book and the protagonist in the book I think is is is someone who's a possibilist, someone who can. you know, envision what's possible and if there's ever an audience that, you know, you, you're preaching to the choir so to speak, with our audiences, it's a group of entrepreneurs who have in many cases, uh, done exactly that, imagine what's possible instead of what's not and built companies from scratch and so I think we're, uh, we're speaking the same language or on the same page, so to speak, because Uh, our audience are all, uh, I think possibilists. The book is called Possible, um. It's a great book. I would encourage everybody to pick it up, uh, now and, and right before selling company, read it again. Um, this has been a real treat for me. Thank you for doing it. Oh, it's my great pleasure, John, and I wish every one of you was listening to this much success in getting to yes. And there you have it for today's episode between John and William. If you enjoy today's podcast, then be sure to hit that subscribe button wherever you're listening to today's show. And if you want to help support Built to sell Radio. I'd encourage you to share this episode out with a friend or colleague for show notes, including links to everything referenced in today's episode with William, be sure to visit William's episode page, which you'll be able to find over at built toell.com. Also a reminder, if you want to watch this full interview, you can head over to our YouTube channel at Built toell. Special thanks to Dennis La Batala for handling today's audio engineering and thank you to our community of certified value builders who help us bring our message to you. Our advisors are experts in helping you build the value of your company. To get in touch with an advisor or learn how to become one yourself, head over to valuebuilder.com. I'm Colin Morgan and I'll talk to you again next week.