She Still Packs Every Order as if It’s a Gift

Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. This week, we introduce another new voice, Shannon Kennedy, who takes us inside the side hustle that's become her second full-time job. Shannon [music] is the inventor and patent holder of the Morgan Square, a clever measuring tool that's racking up awards, expanding its [music] distribution, and carving out space for a woman founder in a traditionally maledominated industry. [music] This is a true bootstrap story. Shannon's numbers are modest enough that she still does most of her own fulfillment at night after her day job as a banker. And [music] she loves it. Every time I get an order, she tells Paul Downs and Lena Magcguire. I feel like I'm wrapping a Christmas present. I'm just so excited that somebody wants something that I've [music] created. Plus, Paul checks in with an update. After posting his best year ever in 2024, [music] he was blindsided when sales suddenly stalled earlier this year, forcing him to lay off a third of his employees. Sales have since rebounded, but [music] now he's staring at a backlog and a different dilemma. Does he hire aggressively to meet the higher demand, [music] or play it safe until he sees how 2026 begins? Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely [music] pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges. In fact, [music] that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community, engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insight only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, you can sign up for the Morning Report newsletter, which offers examples every day of owners confronting challenges and seizing [music] opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. Joining me this [music] week on the podcast are Paul DS, CEO of Paul Downs Cabinet Makers, which [music] is based outside of Philadelphia and makes custom conference tables, Shannon Kennedy, [music] founder and CEO of Kiwi Vision, which manufactures the Morgan Square measuring tool. [music] And Lena Maguire, CEO of Spoka Kitchen and Bath, which [music] is based near Syracuse, New York, and designs and manages home remodeling projects, especially for those looking to age in place. The episode is titled She Still Packs Every Order as If It's a Gift. Welcome, Paul, Lena, and especially the newest regular [music] on our podcast, team, Shannon Kennedy. Thanks for joining us, Shannon. >> Thank you for having me. >> Our pleasure. So, Shannon, I I did a one-on-one podcast with you a couple years ago, but just in case our listeners haven't committed it to memory, let's talk about what you do. First of all, you you have a day job. Uh you're a banker. Your full-time job is with the Silicon Valley Bank. What do you do there? >> I am in startup banking. I am a relationship manager at Silicon Valley Bank. I have been with Silicon Valley Bank for about 26 and a half years. >> Wow. Uh and relationships with startups. That seems appropriate given uh the other reason you're here on this podcast. >> Absolutely. Yes, I do work with founders that preede and all the good folks that are starting their journeys. >> And what's your focus with those founders? >> I'm in the startup space of it. So, it's determining what their their banking needs are and then deciding whether or not they may or may not be a fit for the products that are offered. >> So, you also have a startup, a side hustle. You make a tool called the Morgan Square. What's a Morgan Square? So the Morgan Square is a measuring tool that allows you to measure and mark simultaneously. It's um not creating a new way to um measure, but it is definitely improved the process of how you measure. So what do they say? Measure twice, cut once. I think I've kind of um put a little bit of a of a professional change to that. So, it has a universal tape mount that you clip your tape measure on so that you can then measure and mark uh two pieces at one time or in two areas at one time. >> So, you only have to measure once. >> That's the goal. Reducing materials and speeding up the time it takes to measure a layout. >> Shannon, how far have you gotten with the Morgan Square? Where's the business today? >> Oh my goodness. the business today it is uh surviving and thriving uh that's the best way that I can can put it out there it has been such a journey 2025 in itself has been a wild exciting crazy ride >> give us a few hints what's going on >> yes so at the beginning of the year I think it was in February I had the opportunity to go out to Akran Ohio where Hartville Hardware is and I am actually in the heart bill hardware store. They happen to be the largest um hardware store in America. So they have a tool sale every I think it's winter and uh spring I believe. So I had the opportunity to go all the way out there and showcase my my Morgan Square and also get to see it on the shelves for the first time. So that was really really exciting. Um then after that I went to Atlanta to workbench con um where there's a lot of um makers in the community who actually get together and network. That's where you get your influencers and people who are you know just out there trying to showcase their work. April I was on NBC live here in the Bay Area and I got to showcase my tool in the studio. That was amazing. Never in a million years did I think I'd be inside of a news studio telling my story. And then I had the opportunity to go to Ann Arbor for the first time uh to meet you all for the 21 hats. Um which was, you know, just another amazing experience. I got >> probably the highlight of your year, I'm guessing. >> It was. It really was because I I I gained some great relationships [laughter] from that trip. I mean, it has just been crazy. That is just the tip of the iceberg. I just recently received um the 2025 Pro Innovation Tool Award of the Year for Best Hand Tool. I am now available on homed depot.com. I also found out I believe I'm in about or 80 woodcraft stores now as well. So, that's kind of a snapshot of the things that have been going on this year so far. and I'm wrapping up getting ready for the holidays and I'm just really excited for the trajectory that I'm on. >> Shannon, that protool innovation, is that that Bob VA award? >> No, that's separate. Um, this >> Oh, well, everybody knows Bob VA. Do tell. >> Yes. Well, Bob Vila did name the Morgan Square best hand tool of the year for 2024. Um, that was a late notification last year. And then I just recently had an article posted sometime this year. here. I've had a few articles from Bob VA as well um giving it a very high rating. >> Have all of these things you've told us about had the impact on sales that one would hope? >> Uh they they have. So where I am right now is still the exposures. I'm a brand that nobody well I would say no one knows that I'm here but it's still getting my name out there. So the sales are now coming in a bit more organic. So, I'm seeing consistent sales now, which is great. >> Can you give us an idea how big the those sales are on on an annual basis? >> I'll give you the the units so far. I mean, it's still going in for the for the year, but I think in 2022 when I first launched it to 2023 when I met uh Paul, I had about a thousand. Last year, I sold over 3,000 and I believe I'm set to sell about 5,000 or so this year. >> Got it. And how do you manufacture them? Uh >> my manufacturer is based in Santa Clara, California. However, they are officially made in Vietnam. >> So that means you've been subject to tariffs this year. >> Um yes, yes, yes I have. Yes, yes I have. >> How big a problem has that been? >> Um I knew that they were coming. You know, it's been a bit crazy this year, not being able to really know what's going on or how it's going to impact. And earlier this year, I did do a price increase um to kind of get ahead of it. But most recently, since the I think it's 55 50 55% tariff on all aluminum and steel. So, on my next inventory order, that's where I'm going to have to adjust my numbers again uh to keep up. Meaning you're going to have to raise prices? >> Yes. >> Did you think the price increase had an impact on your sales? >> No, surprisingly. I've I surprisingly no, it has not. >> Shannon, what's your daily routine like um between your day job and your side hustle? How are you managing this? One of the things that I have I [clears throat] think I've done which has been helpful to me is I have pretty much mastered time management. So I I mean I sleep well. I there's plenty of sleep in my life. My husband actually asked me how I sleep so well when I do fall asleep. But I get up early. I'm you know working on my task that I need to do. I work during the day and then in the evenings um as I have shipments or what have you I I love to package them. I do have one other person that helps me. The the status of my business and it's not that it needs immediate attention during the day. I'm online and so the as the sales come in, they just need to be packaged and shipped. Everything else is more so about, you know, uh strategizing my my marketing and looking, you know, to what's next. Um I have trade shows set up for next year. So, it's it it works out because I've put so much work into it before now. So, now I just need to sell. And Shannon, do you have plans for when you hit the trade shows? Because I'm imagining if you go to like the international um builder show, they're doing that in Florida in February. All the builders are there. And if they see your product in action and all of a sudden you get a slew of orders, are you ready? If you're packaging yourself out of the house, are you ready to upscale that? >> Oh, yes. I'm waiting for someone to tell me they would love [laughter] a few thousand. You know, when when that happens, I'll be able to to manage it. Um the order and the packaging. We'll just have to figure out what that looks like. It' be an exciting and stressful time. But I don't think that that's um anything that will hold us back at all. >> Well, it's a concern to me when people grow too fast >> because if you can't handle it, then you start having disappointed customers and you know, then your reputation is ruined. So, >> Oh, yes. >> If you get your ducks in a row ahead of time, which you know, I'm sure you are. You're very coordinated. >> Yes, I am ready. I like I said, I'm ready to go. Just I'm sitting there going, who wants who wants a Morgan Square? I think the last time I had a I think I would it was viral. I've been viral a few times. I ran out of everything but squares. It was like, "Oh, I still got the squares, but I had to get ink. I had to get paper." But now I'm ahead of the game. It's like you say, when you grow too fast, you can shoot yourself in the foot. But now I know what to expect and I know what to do. So, I think I'd be able to handle it. Um, and and also offer up um realistic expectations on delivery. So, it's about communication and building those relationships. How does your relationship with Home Depot work? If uh if somebody orders your product on at home depot.com, do you fulfill that yourself personally, your very own hands? >> Um, yes, most of the time, yes, I do have a couple folks that do help me. Um, but most of the time, yes, it is me. I kind of enjoy it. The volume isn't so high that I can't handle it. I've got my my process down. I've got my box. I've got my paper. Everything is already ready to go. It's not like I have to think about it. and I really enjoy it. Every time I get an order, I feel like I'm wrapping a Christmas present. I'm just so excited that somebody wants something that I've created. Um, so yeah, I get the order, uh, ship it out, you do some invoicing, and off it goes. >> I'm glad you feel that way because it may not feel that way 10 years from now, but that's wonderful. >> It may not, but today it does. You got to live in the moment. >> Yeah. The other thing I want to ask you is um, are you writing down all these processes? Are are they still in your head? >> Oh, no. I have them written down. I Well, one of the things in my my background um uh in my day job and just in my my corporate life, I am very familiar with writing procedures and passwords and all that good stuff. So, if something were to happen, I have a backup plan um so it doesn't stop. >> Yeah, because that's going to be very important as you grow. >> Yes, absolutely. >> How are you financing your manufacturing, Shannon? Um, are you borrowing money from Silicon Valley Bank? >> Can you Can you lend yourself money? >> I wish I could, but no. [laughter] No, I am not I am not in that in that realm. I'm not a technology or healthcare or life science company. I've been bootstrapping. Um, that's what I do. So, I've been doing that out of pocket for my current version of the Squares, which um hasn't been terrible. But I do have another product in the lineup which I'm considering how I'm going to get funding because I don't want to keep bootstrapping. But yes, but it's not necessarily this great thing to do. So I am considering crowdfunding for my next product which is for drywall. It's a drywall square for sheetrock. I actually just did um a debut of it at the AWFS fair this year and the interest is outrageously um exciting. Uh [clears throat] so I'm I I think that this if I'm going to do this, I'm going to have to get some funding from somewhere for sure. >> Can you explain why you would need a different kind of tool for uh drywall? >> Yes. So, of all of the trade shows that I've been to over the past few years, uh the DIYers, the woodworkers, the the the makers, they really enjoy the tool, uh the Morgan Square as it is, I said, being compatible with the tape measure, but at the same time, those folks who are into sheetrock, drywall, they say they don't do woodworking and they like, "Oh man, if you had this um something that that could be used for, you know, drywall or sheetrock," which is a larger version. So the Morgan Square currently is either an 8 in or 12 in. When you have drywall or sheetrock, it's 24 by 48. And when you do sheetrock, you you score the material, which is using a knife, kind of cutting it across freehand, which you know, if you draw a line freehand, I'm pretty sure it's going to be quite wavy, which leads to waste. So, the Morgan Square, I think I'm going to call it the rocker, is uh [laughter] um it looks just like the Morgan square. It's an L-shaped square, but it's a 24 by 48. I have installed slits where you can put your knife inside of it, and you can run it across and have a straight edge. That way, you won't have to cut more material or it's you you you're using less and you're able to do it faster. And it's collapsible. I love this already. I can see my guys on the cruise using this and like really loving it. >> Paula, you know something about woodwork. Any uh questions for Shannon? >> Yeah, you're a banker. Where did this whole idea come from? >> Oh, this is my favorite part. Okay, so I love telling this story because when I go to these trade shows, it is definitely a conversation piece. Yes, I am a banker. I am a banker through and through. Been doing it a long, long time. So, how did the Morgan Square come up? This is how it came up and I'll do my best to do my quick founders pitch story. So, I have a friend who lives in New Zealand and in 2015 2016 um I was talking to him um just about life. U breast cancer had come through my family. My mother and my sister both got breast cancer. And so when I was talking to my friend just about life, he had shared with me that his son and I knew he had a son that had passed away from leukemia. He passed away at the age of eight. And he shared with me then he said that before his son passed away, he had to build him a mo a mobile bicycle to like take him outside because he could no longer walk to get fresh air. And he said, "I wish I had a tool to build things faster so I could spend more time with my son." Well, first of all, why are you telling me this and what do you mean? So, he was sharing it with me as, you know, friends always try to help friends. And the reason why he was telling me about this this thought process he had is because he thought that maybe I could sell the idea to help take care of my family. So long story short, I ended up having him explain it to me because I am a banker. I am not in the woodworking trades. I don't I don't use my tool in this manner. So once he explained it to me, I ended up coming up with a design. I did a patent search. I did a trademark search. It didn't exist. And I was like, "Yeah, well maybe I can sell this thing. Who knows?" And so I talked to my friend Gary who is my my right hand. Whenever you see me, you'll see him most of the time at trade shows. I said, "Hey, do you think this is a good idea?" And the reason why I asked Gary is because he's a he's a he was a maintenance carpenter in his previous life. So once I did the the patent search and learned that it didn't exist, I filed the patent. I got the patent. I started showing it to woodworkers, cabinet makers, carpenters, and everybody was like, "What? This hasn't been done before?" And I was like, "No." Oh, and so when I I I was looking for manufacturers, one manufacturer asked me for exclusive manufacturing rights and I said, "Wait, hold on a moment. What do I have?" So I decided to keep this product and I named it Morgan after my friend's son and the name of my company is called Kiwi Vision because New Zealand natives are known as Kiwis. Hence, we have the Morgan Square. >> Okay, it's a good story. you've started to get distribution, which to me when people invent a device seems like the hardest thing. I had an employee about 20 years ago who invented a thing that allowed you to reach down into your disposal in your kitchen sink with kind of like a gripper device as opposed to just sticking your hand in there. And he never really got to the point of having distribution and eventually it disappeared. So, congratulations on getting some outlets. Um, what's next? Are you going to continue to work your way up the food chain to you're in Walmart or or what are you going to do? >> Ah, I love it. Uh, yes, I am going to continue and it is available on Walmart.com. [laughter] >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. There are a lot of people out there that can utilize my tool and I just like I said I need to keep going and get it into more stores like Rockler or um you know just there's so many places that I can be and and I'm starting here in the US because this is what I know but my tool is also standard in metrics which the rest of the world uses. So I would love to get it in different like I'm in Home Depot you know.com here but there are Home Depot in Canada and other places. Um, so the goal is to get it out there and get it in the right stores as well. I know that it's a challenge to change how seasoned people in the trades do their their woodworking. So, I am focusing on the new folks that are coming into the trades um because you can teach them new tricks. So, it's um yeah, I'm I'm I'm added I just recently had somebody find me uh in Canada. They have a school in which they teach young women or women um who haven't had the best lives the trades such as woodworking, framing, electrical work. So, they've invited me to speak to their cohorts and talk about this tool. So, if I can get this in the right hands and get in the right hands early, I'm pretty sure I can change the game. I'm not trying to replace a speed square. I'm just offering a >> What's a speed square? A speed square is one of my they you would consider uh a competitor. So the speed square is that triangular square. I don't know why it's called a speed square when it looks triangular, but it doesn't allow you to measure and mark at the same time. >> Along those lines, Shannon, I'm curious. How much protection does the uh patent that you got give you? Has anybody tried to knock off your product, create a similar version? >> Not yet. I've seen something, you know, where people are trying to do the measuring and marking, but I do have a design patent on it. So, you really I haven't seen anybody making it. I have a new version for wide tape measures now, which are those fat max versions. They're for the they're really big. That's not even out there on Amazon or any other store. You can only get that from me or at Woodcraft. So, um I haven't seen anything. I said my I'm trademarked. I'm patented. My face is everywhere. And I think it would be a bit of a challenge for someone to try to um you know, they could, but I I haven't seen it yet. >> What's your ultimate goal with the business? Are you hoping to just keep building the business or do you want to sell this to somebody else who's in the business of making tools? What are you thinking? >> I'm thinking cuz I'm not sure yet. [laughter] I never expected to be where I'm at. It wasn't like one day I woke up and say, "Hey, I'm going to go build these tools." But now that I'm in it, I'm not sure which way I want to go yet. And I know I need to have that conversation. I'd love to license it to someone and have them make it, you know, or it would be pretty cool to keep building it out. And I say that because there's not a lot of women in the trades anyway, and there certainly are even less womenowned tool brands. I'm changing that narrative. So for me to actually give this up, it would take some some serious thought and consideration. Also, the emotional part like this is so important how it came to be. I don't know that I would just give it up like that. I So I I I I need to do some self-reflecting and have some thoughtprovoking conversations very soon here because I need to figure out which way I'm going to go because I'm pretty sure it's going to pick up and there's going to be some interest. actually had I think at the last trade show someone approached me and I didn't understand what they were saying until I thought about it but they were like well when you're ready let me know because it sounded like they have been watching me for a while and are looking into you know considering oh do you want to be bought or something like that and so I I really need to to think about that Lauren because I'm not exactly sure I've been called the accidental entrepreneur because like I said I never set out to do this I'm a banker this that's what I do um so I'm just I'm learning learning every day and I'm really enjoying it, but I I'm not sure yet. >> At current rates, how many years before you could quit your day job? >> Oh, I don't know. People ask me that question all the time. And it's not just that piece of it. And this is more of a personal part. I also take care of my mother who has dementia. So, I tell people this. I can jeopardize my life if I wanted to jump ship, but I can't jeopardize mom's life. So until I'm comfortable in that, I'm going to continue um you know doing what I need to do to make sure that that is never jeopardized. >> Shannon, is that an issue of health insurance or just the the salary that you make from the bank? >> It's care. It's not even the health insurance. I do a lot of traveling and everything else. And I just need to make sure that, you know, basically mom has whatever she needs and when she needs it. That's something I cannot negotiate. Well, I suspect uh we will be following the story for quite some time. I'm delighted to hear that you are invested in the idea of owning the business and remaining the face of it and we will continue to discuss that with you as as time goes on and you continue to meet new challenges. Uh but thanks for joining us here. Well, >> thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it and I'm I'm I'm excited to talk about this and you know I've been hiding for quite some time my face and but now I'm out and I'm just excited to be here. [laughter] >> So uh Paul I'd love to talk to you a little bit about the the year you've had. Uh at the beginning of the year you kind of stunned us by telling us that your phone had essentially stopped ringing. Uh your business got off to a very slow start. I think you said March was maybe the worst month you'd ever had, at least since you'd started keeping records. You had to lay off, I think, a third of your uh workforce. What's happened since then? Have things turned around? >> Yes, things have turned around. Um, part of the that you left out was that we were coming off our best year ever in and sales had gone up about 30% from 2023. And so all through 2024, I was hiring, adding people to the team, and kind of anticipating another pretty strong year. And then that just didn't happen. So, not only did we have no phone ringing, but this very hungry pile of of workers who were eating through the backlog in our cash very quickly in the first couple of months. And so that's why I did the layoffs because I could just need it to uh slow down the burn rate and stop us from going through all of our backlog. And that worked and uh but it was helped by the fact that in April the phone started to ring and sales have been pretty strong uh ever since then. And I've been keeping records of my business for the last 40 years. So when I'm not sure what's going to happen, I tend to look back and think, well, what year is this most like? And really nothing like any of them. And and mostly because what should be happening to the economy is not necessarily happening at at the rate I would have thought. You you have all this uncertainty from Washington and and that affects many of my clients who are in the government and uh many of them who are not in the government. And um I was just thinking, okay, the shoe's going to fall at any moment. We already had one giant pause in incoming sales and they're coming back. Not quite at the same rate as from 2024, but looking like a solid year. And so all summer, I have resisted uh increasing my headcount in order to get back to the productive capacity that we had with that many people. Because in my business, the amount of product you can put together and ship, that's your crude revenue, is pretty directly related to the number of people we have. There's no magic thing that makes furniture go together faster other than another pair of hands. >> Paul, you you did hire some of the people you laid off back, though. >> Hired a couple of them back, not all of them. And it became a a chance to uh think about who we wanted to have here. But then also a couple of the people I hired back then subsequently uh left again uh for reasonable reasons, you know, commutes and one retired. And so I'm I'm back at at 22 from 28 last year. And uh we have a couple of of young interns that we picked up from uh the local high school. But in general, we're we our productive capacity right now is well suited to about a $4 million a year rate and we're just about to cross 4 a.5 million for this year in new orders. And so our backlog has been getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And I have been struggling with the thought that well you know maybe we should hire to get that under control but maybe not because I felt so burned by last year and uh as a matter of fact I just came to the realization that we've got to put some more people on the shop floor. So I put an ad in Indeed this morning. Part of the reason why I'm not just letting the backlog uh dial up is is because the staff that we're carrying in the beginning phases of our production stream, which is the sales team, the project managers, the engineers, they're difficult to replace. And so we have uh the right number for about 4 and a.5 to 5 million. But on the shop floor, we only have the right number for about three and a half million. So we've been struggling to get work out the door all year and on an acred basis we have not been profitable. Now the the other thing is doing the headcount reductions and I also did a temporary pay reduction that absolutely fixed our cash position. So our cash position has been very strong all year. Matter of fact, I got more money in the bank now than I have in previous years by a long shot. But I always was like, you know, that's my reserve just in case things go to hell again. So, I've decided to take my foot off the brake and put my foot on the accelerator and see what happens. And I hope that we don't just have a replication of last year when the first quarter was so difficult. >> Do you know why your sales picked up? Did you do anything differently to generate those sales? Uh, I can't tell you for certain, but much of the bigger sales this year have been military related. And my suspicion is that the military units that we deal with or maybe all the units in in the military were uh spending out fiscal year 2025, you know, 2425 funds, which would have been the last uh budget allocation from the Biden administration. And Trump is not necessarily going to be cutting military spending, but he may be reallocating dollars that went to this thing to go to that thing. Nobody's really sure. So, I think that a lot of our clients were like, "Let's just get some of these things done and upgrade our our conference rooms while we got the money and then we'll deal with whatever happens next year, next year." That's my suspicion. So, we've had a number of headquarters upgrades that were just nice solid jobs for us. And aside from that, uh, it would probably be about a 3.8 million year. >> Have you been affected by the government shutdown? Well, the government shutdown was awesome because I was just about to get into a GSA audit of my GSA contract and that is an extremely painful experience and uh had been given a long list of very difficult to put together things I needed to do and was just about to submit it and then the government shut down and so the guy who was supposed to be torturing me is now sitting home twiddling his thumbs and I feel bad for him but I feel better for me. So I [laughter] don't I mean it's just deferring it, but I really wasn't looking forward to having to deal with it just in the last few weeks. So >> is that a routine audit or is did something trigger that? >> No, it's every year. And it's because we're relatively new to uh doing these audits, it's it's still a ton of work for me to dig down and find the information they're asking for and present it in a way that uh that they can digest. And that's more a reflection I think of the the basic GSA processes are designed for the most part to be um done by larger companies than me which have staff to do nothing but deal with this. Whereas with me you know this thing just lands in my lap because it's too complicated to explain to anybody else. I don't have anybody else to do it. >> What's the overall goal of the audit? What are they really looking for? Well, I suppose that that they are are hoping that they're going to audit uh all of their contractors to prevent fraud. Now, the way laws tend to get written is if you're in that ecosystem, everybody has to do it. Even though if everything I did was fraudulent, it would still be a pretty small drop in the bucket compared to Loheed Martin. But I'm swimming in the same pool and we have to comply with a lot of the same regs as things that are designed to uh apply to much much larger, more complex organizations than I am. >> So when you say you're going to put your foot on the gas, uh obviously that means hiring more people to give you more production capacity. Does it mean anything else? >> Well, I'm I'm sort of revamping or vamping out a marketing effort again, too. I've gone back and forth on on that, but um we just in case anybody doesn't remember, we get most of our uh leads through Google searches. So 20ome years ago, my web page was chosen by Google to be the top organic search result for people looking for a custom boardroom table. And we've been riding that stream of inquiries ever since. And we have gotten to a pretty good place where the website scores very well and we get usually somewhere between 3 and 15 calls every day. And that's reliably producing more than 4 million a year in revenue. And what terrifies me is the idea that everybody's switching from doing Google searches to find stuff to doing AI related searches, which is something that is, you know, it's kind of hard to resist, just typing into Perplexity or Chat GBT. Hey, who should make my boardroom table? >> You're probably doing the same thing for other searches. >> Well, I do that for a lot of stuff, too. Not necessarily for shopping, but for certainly to answer questions. And so, uh, Google put me on the path to prosperity and I want to make sure that we don't miss the next boat. And so, I'm trying to think my way through how do we translate success on Google into success on these other platforms. Now my suspicion is that success on Google is actually the prerequisite for success on a lot of these other platforms particularly for search strings like what would be interesting to me which is who makes this thing. You know you can search however you want that there aren't any more manufacturers who are capable of doing it. uh we're we're part of a pretty select group of people who could actually do this product. And so because we already score very well on Google, we'll most likely do quite well as Google switches its search results to an AI based result as opposed to just a link based result. But how do we make sure that we're scoring well on chat GPT or you like whatever one pops up? And my thought is that what we want to do is highlight something that we already kind of emphasize, which is that if you come to my company, you're going to be dealing with an actual human being and uh that there's not going to be, you know, a lot of nonsense. We're just going to put you right in front of people. So, how do you convey that on a web page? Well, part of it would be not using AI to write the whole web page. And part of it would be making sure that the information we present on the web, and this is just a suspicion of mine, but this is what we're going to try out. We're going to repackage that information as more textbased posts and make sure that uh my name is prominently sprinkled through there. And a good example of that, we just uh took our FAQ page and which is just questions and answers and I threw it in chat GPT and said, "Hey, turn this into an interview with Paul DS." So that it's the same information, but instead of being just like bullet points with answers, it'll be like, "Hey, Paul DS, what's the answer to how much a table should cost?" And then it'll say, "Paul DS, here's my answer." you know, just like try to try to infect these textbased uh knowledge bundles with my name so that we emphasize that connection between we're the guys to do this particular thing. I don't know if that actually makes sense to anybody, but that's was the best thing I could think of to do right now. So that's an effort where we're going to be doing a lot more blogging and uh so I've hired someone to help just do the mechanics of that, making sure those content gets posted on our two websites and then also as blog posts and that we're just keeping the site fresh and receding it with textbased answers. Does that make sense? >> I think it does. I'm curious. Did you plot this strategy by reading what other people have written on the on the topic? By asking chat GPT what you should do uh by hiring somebody uh who claims to be an expert? How did you come up with it? >> None of that. I just thought about it. I'm pretty smart. So just thought about okay, you know, like we've been playing this game with Google for 20ome years now. What does Google really want? And sometimes Google will give you indications of what they want. So 10 years ago it was we want to make sure you have a mobile responsive website. And then in a world where people are looking at reviews for everything, we make sure that we're doing everything we can to get Google reviews so that Google is noticing that we're reaching out to our clients and people are coming back and saying great job. And uh I've always maintained an AdWords campaign, not because it actually does anything much for us, but it's just a way to give Google some money. So those are my three main strategies for keeping Google happy. And then just thinking about, okay, if we're going to a textbased world where everything goes through, you know, sort of passes through a filter of having to be described by text and the answer is now often a textbased answer as opposed to a linkbased. What would you do? Well, you better come up with some good text and it better not look like AI slop. and it has to be something that even if it's written in a way that isn't keyword stuffing uh somehow ties back to my company. So those are the things that just in my mind are going to work. But I don't really believe anybody knows exactly what the path to success is in the near future because nobody ever knew. people were always guessing about SEO and the people who run these large language models don't even know how they work themselves. They they can't predict what's going to happen. So, you know, more text is probably worthwhile. Making sure that we're emphasizing our current position is probably worthwhile. And that's just a thought I had. Shannon or uh Lena, have either of you been thinking about what you need to do to show up in generative AI searches? >> Yeah, I'm redoing my website and we are talking about doing blogs. Um, not just short blogs, but a series of blogs. So, I remodel kitchens and bathrooms and it's a a long process. So, we're going to do a case study that is similar to a real project that takes like two years. So from the idea, a potential client would think, "Oh, you know, I'm not happy with my kitchen." When they have that first little inkling. So that would be the first start of the blog where we're saying, "Okay, so you're thinking about your kitchen. So here's what you want to do. Keep a wants versus need list." You know, put some helpful tips in there and just guide them on a weekly basis as to what things are going so that this can be highlighted on the blog and live there forever and anybody can come into it. So if I go through a year and a half to two years and I have these blogs as a series, they can come back to it and jump in at any point and it will always be a fresh case study for somebody to follow from where they are. So we're hoping that that's going to grab some of that professional expertise, help guide you, but not give you all the information that you need. Just this is what the process is like. That's kind of the thought right now. Have you sought any guidance uh on that, Lena, or are you like Paul, are you kind of gaming it out yourself? >> Um, I have a marketing agency I use. Um, and it's not cheap. You know, we're talking tens of thousands of dollars for a year, but I think it's a good investment and especially in the times right now where uh people who have money are still doing kitchens and people who don't are holding on. So, it's not too bad for me because I'm leveling up the types of projects I'm doing. But, yeah, got to market all the time. Always be marketing and uh I'm paying somebody else to do it so that you know I want to do what I'm good at. I'm letting the other people do what they're good at. So, that requires setting a proper budget for it. >> How about you, Shannon? >> I would say right there with you. You got to have a budget. So, yes, I'm, you know, I have a marketing team now. So yes, chat GPT comes up all the time. Just getting it um you know set up and properly getting that algorithm out there and I think it's happening already because when I uh get things in from my website, it's coming from all sources of places. So yes, I am just uh trying to make sure that the strategy is there. Um that I've got the right connections and that um like I think Lena, you just said blogs, but it's how you get it out there and how you get it to show up. Like I know that I just showed up at I think it was Apple News the other day. Um and it's just based off of how things are set up, how you're driving things out there. So yes, working with the marketing team and as Lena said, let the people who know what they're supposed to be doing do that because I'm not that person. >> We only have a couple minutes left. Uh Lena, I just wanted to follow up. Last time you were here, we talked a lot about your efforts to buy a building. You put in a bid on one place and it looked like that wasn't going to work out, so you were still looking around. Uh any update there? >> I am still looking around. Um there has been no new real estate available in the area I'm looking at. So I am broadening my search. Um I'd still like to stay in the one town that I've targeted, but I have dug into a few other towns that are also good areas and um I may end up somewhere else for a temporary time. So yeah, it's a continuing search. All right, my thanks to Paul DS, Lena Magcguire, and especially our new member, Shannon Kennedy. Thank you all for sharing, and I really appreciate it. 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