Should You Be in a Business Group?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week Sarah seagull Jay goz and special guest Leo barari have a hype-free conversation about why peer advisory groups like vistage YPO and EO can be life-changing for business owners and why they're not for everyone Sarah has been wondering if they're for her Jay who's been in six different peer groups says it can be worth the price of admission just to see how other owners run their businesses but there are reasons he keeps leaving the groups he joins and Leo is a former vistage employee who has written multiple books on peer groups and has built a related Consulting practice surprisingly few business owners belong to a peer group are they missing out all three of my guests suggest questions to consider before deciding for yourself even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these week conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which Inc magazine recently named the best newsletter for business owners and which you can subscribe to at 21h hats.com where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews joining me this week on the podcast are Jay goz whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason Hol Sarah seagull who is founder and CEO of seagull Communications a public relations firm based in San Francisco and Leo batari who is founder of peer inovation and please take a listen to my quick chat with Rob Levan co-founder of our sponsor work better now the episode is titled should you be in a business group welcome Leo Jay and Sarah it's great to have you all here especially you Leo thanks for joining us can you just start by for someone who doesn't know uh isn't familiar with these groups can you first give us a sense of what's the goal what's the purpose how does it work so when you're a CEO there's all these books on leadership and followership and all these other kinds of things there's very little out there that tells you what it is you're supposed to be doing as a CEO especially for companies that could be you know 2050 hundred million and you still have CEOs there that play the role of Chief everything officer more than they understand about chief executive officer so if you can assemble and essentially facilitate whether it's self facilitated or you have someone do it it could be 8 12 16 members whatever it happens to be but the idea is you put all these CEOs in a room they share the common challenge of what it's like to sit in that chair and have to run their companies and consider all of the stakeholders involved it isn't just you know having the luxury of looking at your company through an HR lens legal find or whatever it's you've got to look at the whole shoo match with everything involved and to sit around with a group of people where there are so many challenges and opportunities and dynamics of the job that you have in common the the ability to share those things with one another in real time in you know dealing with real um issues if you will uh going on in your company and real aspirations going on for your company they're really really powerful just to be able to set in a room in a confidential setting where you can really sit and be yourself but here you can be in a room with people and be real with one another what don't you know what are you afraid of what do you what are you concerned about with regard to the future is there a basic format uh for these meetings Leo so you know different organizations run it in different ways for sure I think um by and large people come in and gather and just spend casual time with one another and then often times there some kind of a check-in where everyone just talks about hey how are things going since last month and they kind of just give an update about where they are and what's going on uh many groups also have speakers that come in who provide some type of expertise and it could be on whatever the needs of the group are could be on organizational culture could be Finance could be sales it could be anything like that and oftentimes this content can be very powerful and really helpful but I think the meat of these meetings really come together really you know you know again when you have people who engage one another they will bring challenges and opportunities they will frame them as questions to the group they give the group background information they talk about you know what they're looking to do what they've done about it so far they have some uncertainties about next steps and this is where they can engage group members and really dig deep into uh some of these questions that can be either big questions that have to do with the entire future of the business or they can be more tactical from time to time often times there's certainly all the lack of a better word call it kind of an accountability aspect of things so let's say that I brought a challenge or a question to a group and they help me with that in some way what I would want to do in the next meeting is say hey I I get some great you know information from you folks here's what resonated with me here's what I decided to do and here's where we are on this because sometimes you know we can all get together in a conference room and up with genius plans that once they meet real life they can deal with a little something different so we want to obviously show how our actions are working on one hand from an accountability standpoint but on the other you want to make sure that the learning opportunity is not lost for everyone there the brand names that I'm most familiar with are vistage EO and YPO are there big differences that we should know about between those organizations um or they basic the basically the same concept ccept there big differences so vistage started in 1957 for example and it's largely their core was peer advisory groups now YPO has been around a little bit longer but that really wasn't the core of what they did that came on decades later where they started to run pure advisory groups as part of their overall value proposition where you get Executives and spouses and everything together I think you know helping one another and and and networking and connecting and all of that EO tends to serve I think by and large um some smaller companies you've got Renaissance executive forums out there right now that's really looking to build I think a global ecosystem and they're doing some good work but there's a lot of organizations out there there's the there's the alternative board there are many many organizations out there there are people you know who start their own groups uh as well who may not lean on an organization to do that which there can be some advantages to that there's two huge differences between YPO and vage and I've been in both in vistage there's someone paid to run the meetings and in YPO you take turns on whoever's month it is that's the first difference and the second difference is you have to I don't know what the number now is but it used to be you had to become the president by the time you were 40 to be in this group which means there aren't a whole lot of older people in this thing which I think is a huge disadvantage especially now that I'm older I know way more now than I did when I was 38 and as a result the YPO groups got mostly people who took over the family business because it's pretty hard to I did it but it's pretty hard to get to that size by yourself if you started from scratch and pay the big fee to be in it so I do think there's a big difference between those two groups there is um now YPO the people who do run the groups do get some facilitation training groups tend to be a bit smaller there's no question there's a bit of a different Dynamic there than than vistage but yeah you know every one of these groups can be a little bit different and and I think this may go to where we're headed with this which is well how do you know what groups right for you you know what does that look like and I think a lot of that starts with you what am I looking for out of this group and as specific as you can be about that the more likely you're going to be able to find a an organization that fits uh with your needs but also the actual right group and the right members and the right leadership of that group where you feel the fit can work for you as well those are exactly the kinds of questions I was about to ask Sarah Sarah I believe uh you've mentioned on the podcast that you have an interest in in joining a group is that still the case and if so what are you looking for I am a joiner by Nature I have to say I love joining these kind of groups I'm part of like PR groups because that's what I do and my area of expertise there's one that I'm part of which is PR Council which is um mostly leadership um focused um which is great but I have not I've been curious about vistage I've been curious about EO and other organizations like that just to get perspective I'm I'm too old for YPO sounds like yeah they you can be older and get into YPO I think it's called YPO gold sometimes they like to remove the G um it's not it's not YPO gray so these organizations I'm part of are fantastic but you tend to find yourself in a bubble of knowledge right and I'm a big advocate of siphoning uh new ideas from other Industries I think that it's been really great for me as a business owner for my clients so I would only assume that it would be beneficial for me as for my own business to you know see what somebody's doing with their real estate firm and seeing if it's something I could apply to mine so Sarah what has kept you from joining one of these groups to this point well they're not free no so I think that's number one and it's just bandwidth you know making sure that if I'm going to join something like this I'm going to be able to get the most out of it and figuring out you know do I have the time and if it's going to be worth my money I don't want to I don't want to be like you know subscribed to Netflix and then not be able to actually sit and watch my series I want to be able to actually Focus my energy on it so I think it's timing but also like you know is this the investment that I want to want to make and so yeah I've started exploring it a little bit but I haven't I haven't invested it in yet no and unless you see it as an investment it's you're and you'll OB see as an expense there are many people who are members of groups for 10 or 20 years they don't do it because they need more friends or because they just get used to going to the group meetings they do it because they can absolutely quantify the exponential value that they get in hard dollars from what they do versus you know what they're getting so again the the more clear you are on what you want what your metrics are and all that the easier that's going to be to evaluate let's just be clear that correct me if I'm wrong vistage these days is probably about $188,000 a year correct I it's close to that I think you're right yeah that's a lot of money yeah it's it's somewhere 16 18 something like that I don't exactly know what the CEO group membership is in the big picture and I've been in vage twice I've been in president's form I've been in YPO I've started my own groups two or three times J let's let me ask you how many business groups have you been in six over 35 years and there's a common denominator as to why I left each one of them I'm a major I totally believe in business groups I would say that if you go into the right group if you can't make $188,000 more from this then there's something wrong I mean we're talking about making huge changes in your business here's my three things what are three things I got out of groups number one you get someone else to look at your business and ask questions that maybe you didn't think of okay that's valuable number two is you get to see the way other people make money and run their businesses and I will tell you I'm in a fairly unique situ situation I've never had a job I got plopped out of the sky at 22 went and started my own business and I spent years thinking everyone knew better than I did and I got to tell you it's a tremendous confidence Builder because you look at other people and you think God compared to him I'm Einstein three there was a couple of speakers that I listened to one in particular lifechanging and I don't say that lightly lifechanging but I'm going to tell you right now what I why I usually leave in almost every case the group started to dwindle they got down to seven eight people and this is my problem I look around the room and I'm usually one of only two entrepreneurs the rest took over the family business and it's different how's it different Jay I don't say this factiously I say this aggravated I don't want to hear about the golf anymore I just I don't want to hear anymore about golfing every single group and you think second generation plays more golf than first generation yeah or let's get back to the roots the parent was successful therefore they grew up in a nicer neighborhood and they grew up playing golf I didn't I was a working class kind of family so so I really just don't want to pay $118,000 a year and hear about their golf trips and every single one of these groups had that and some of these people are simply unqualified to be running the business and I've literally watched them go broke I've I've sat in groups and watched them slowly but Sur take the family business and destroy it there's not a lot to learn from that and in hindsight I should have spent more time investigating the groups to figure out I'm envious of people that have been in groups for 10 years and have great groups and dynamic things I was in groups that had like I said I was usually only as I'm looking back literally there was only one or two people in each group that actually started the business and it's different Leo have you heard that uh concerning before um not articulated quite that way um I will say that um is is some of obviously is not only Jay's experience but is it some of what I've seen so I've delivered workshops for about 400 groups um throughout North America and different parts of the world and there is no question that not all groups are created equal there's also an aspect of this too that this is just a you know it's a big relationship really among a lot of people when you think about about it and so when you have pick a number 10 12 14 members whatever it happens to be in the group sustaining that level of energy where that group is constantly growing and getting better takes a lot and you know when people start to lose focus for example on why it is they join the group to begin with and it starts to become more about the relationships more about the golf conversations more about those kinds of things than something that really drives the reason that they're there I've seen the efficacy of those groups Fall by the wayside in a very big way it takes a lot and it's not just the leader of the group it's every individual member and it's the group itself and I think also when you are a member of a group I would really highly also recommend that if there are certain kind of members that you want to make sure are added to the group by those voices around the table that you think are necessary for you and others to get value then by all means figure out a way to add those voices and I think that's really really important things change people go they sell their company they leave for whatever reason there can be any number of things that happen and and there has to be just a hyper you know focus on making sure that we've got the group that is going to be serving Us best and and it's it's a lot that's why you pay $188,000 a year because I believe they're supposed to be bringing in the new members in my experience has been they failed at it they couldn't find new members and in every one of these these cases by the time I left there was only eight people left in it and I don't think that's enough I don't know that it's got to be 16 but I think it's probably got to be 12 and and they just couldn't find new members and that's why I was paying the $188,000 a year and when I did it myself it was even harder obviously sure so the only thing I would suggest there and I talk about this a lot to groups some groups that have been together as many as 20 plus years some that are brand new groups I think recruiting new members and making sure that all the voices around the table necessary is everyone's job everybody owns a piece of it it's the only way that that becomes sustainable and and the reason you pay $18 isn't to pay someone to recruit new members there's a lot of aspects of the entire Dynamic and the way and the resources that are available to you both in and outside the group meeting I think groups have gotten a lot better and a lot more attentive to not having the group be the only thing but also I think people are getting more sophisticated about how to take our group experience and make it that much better I mean the groups that I speak to have been together a long time in many cases and they on one hand when it starts they're like hey I think we've got this figured out it takes about a half an hour for them to realize uh no we don't and they get it can you walk me through kind of what a typical month of activity for a group with be like so some groups meet in person some groups meet virtually some are a full day some are a half day they tend to have some pretty good structure about what they do and how to be prepared for that meeting so that when you come together you get you know the the best value you can from that time you spend together and then obviously you don't want to just go from month to month to month and you never talk to anyone again many groups have and especially for CEO paer groups they have onetoone coaching with whoever is leading the group you know which can be part of it and they also um are encouraged to engage with other members during the course of the month also in a way that's designed to help one another get to know each other's businesses better their aspirations more clearly Because unless you understand that you don't know how to help someone and they don't know how to help you one of the things that CEO members in particular admit to me time and time again is that this is the least prepared they show up to any meeting on their calendar so when you get people together when you realize how important it is and can be for them to just prepare in the same way they would for a board meeting client meeting or staff meeting everything goes up you know in a huge way are they embarrassed when they admit that to you a little and then sometimes they'll point to one member in the room and they'll say you know what you are visibly better prepared than all of us every single time every single month how long does that take you and I've never heard anyone say it takes them much more than 15 or 20 minutes they go through the notes in their last meeting they figure out what they need to talk about themselves they look at who the speaker is going to be at the present meeting they try the best they can to clear the decks of whatever head trash is you know going on because whatever is going on in your company you want to leave that behind at least for a half day or a day when that meeting's happening so you can be fully present for yourself and for everyone else so there's an intentionality I think about it and the reason that I speak to now so many new groups is because people join these groups and they think they know what they joined and they have a good sense of what they're looking for but once you can really get them focused um and and I walk them through five intentional conversations to have about how to make this your group you could run under the vistage banner the Renaissance Banner the YPO Banner it doesn't matter this is still your group how do you make it your own and what's going to work for you what's going to give everyone here value and when you can do that now I start to see new groups flourish and then I see groups that have been a long time completely re-energized what's the benefit between or you know joining one of these Vis places or just like starting your own group like Jay has I can tell you it's very hard if you do it on your own it's very hard to find the eight or 10 people to join given that it's free or next to free there maybe is a little less commitment on their part and I've had been in groups with some very lovely people but at the end of the day as my company got bigger my company was way bigger than Mo the one I'm in now I'm the biggest place in there and it it's it's not necessarily an ad it's not an advantage because you know a lot of these companies are a fraction of the size of mine and it's a bad matchup Jay from your experience what makes an effective uh chair or leader of one of these groups and and what can go wrong well Leo I'll ask you this I think this is just like running your company and I I hate to be the jur but I'll be the jerk as usual there's people that just don't bring any value to these meetings you tell them every meeting you say hey what are you doing with this production manager what you're right I need you know what I need to get a different production manager then you go there a year later and you go what's going on isn't this the same guy that was well yeah they don't do anything and I don't want to sit there in meetings and go over the same thing over and over so in my mind a great person that running the meeting who makes a living off of this you got to fire some members sometimes and I don't think that happens a lot I think there are some people that don't bring value to the group Leo what do you think of that um I think good leaders fire members all the time because I think no different than what you're talking about with your company and your company team one bad team member can spoil the group and can certainly spoil and hurt the value that everyone else gets from it and this is where when we talk about the right leaders and the way I kind of Define it is so I walk people through a workshop that basically says do we have all the right people in the room what does that look like for us so there I find there's another issue which and the reason I keep joining groups is I find them very valuable even when they're not perfect I I run out of steam eventually partially because the numbers of dwindle plus I've seen the businesses three four times and it just gets boring frankly so here's another issue I've noticed though some groups there's people that are very sensitive and it and everything's got to be couched and other groups let's just say it the way it is and I I want to be in a group just say it the way it is I can take it you can take it there are some people that really don't want to be that environment there is a difference as to the way some groups operate Leo you with me on that and it's a great question by the way to ask in terms of talking about group norms and what the culture of the group is like it's no different than if you were applying for a job at any one of a number of companies they could all be successful but they all go about it in a very different way so um in terms of what that looks like if you are seeking out certain things those are great questions to ask it must vary greatly Leo have you seen that and do you have a sense of which tone works better it's which tone works better for them what have they agreed upon what do they have clarity about how do they understand what the rules of the road are for them this is their group that's what I mean so you know as Jay pointed out you can have a lot of groups where things are very you just you just throw it out there there's there's not a lot of sugar coating there's not any of that kind of stuff and other cases there can be a little more of a respectful Tone If you will well you know what I want to stop you there for a second I don't find it disrespectful to say Leo this is the third meeting we've been at you keep talking about the production manager for God's sakes don't you think you I call that respectful but so and other I think vistage is the one that always says don't ever give suggestions say in my experience oh vomit really I've got a couch every actually that's EO not vistage but I hear you okay good well a lot of group I mean that's AA as well um that that's a pretty common precept in these kinds of groups Leo do you think that's a a good way to run a meeting or not so YPO and EO basically have said we're out of the advice giving business and largely because they believe it compromises the psychological safety of the group and that when someone is giving advice it becomes more about the one giving the advice than the one receiving it do I would I take it that far no I think it's about the group and about by the way any individual member who seeks assistance for the group who wants the group's help should be clear on what they want do they want them to just listen and don't say anything do they want them to just share their experiences if they happen to have one or I could be asking something of the group and saying I don't know what to do tell me tell me what to do give me all the advice you got and Jay I think you're right um my my point wasn't that that behavior is disrespectful I think that to what you mentioned some people are more sensitive to those kinds of direct conversations and again the culture of the group is going to dictate how that goes and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer I just think that whatever gets him there no my perspective is my perspective is not only am I paying $1,500 a month I've taken a day out of my entire week and I don't want to hear about you complaining about your production you're you're stealing my time and and and I wouldn't go you're an idiot I'd say Leo I got to tell you this is really getting old but Jay let me ask you you you've raised a number of concerns this is a big one what has happened in the groups you've been in when you've addressed these issues have you gone to the chair and said look I can't listen to this guy talking about his production manager anymore or oh I've absolutely have talked about and I think it's been a long time and a lot of different people but I can tell you here's you want to talk about a business model problem the people running this um Leo you know better than I do how much of the $118,000 doeses the person running the group get half it depends on there's a lot of variables in there but it could be half let's just go with half for a second I'm telling somebody hey I want you to get rid of that guy and it's gonna cost them nine grand how motivated is he gonna be to get rid of he or she gonna be motivated to lose nine thou it's a problem and um I've I've seen it where there's people coming to these meetings that absolutely bring nothing to the meeting I'm sorry it's it's kind I didn't join a self-help I didn't so join a a pity party group I didn't join a support I'm joining a group to make my business better to make myself better to learn and to give both back and forth and there's some people that are just there because their parent left them the business all right first I want to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor we'll be right back I'm here with Rob Levan co-founder of work better now which provides top remote Talent from Latin America and the Caribbean Rob I gather you found that businesses are using your remote workers in ways you weren't expecting can you tell us about 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there are no contracts and if you mention 21 hats when you are having your free consult you get $150 off your first 3 months and that is for each assistant that you hire where can we learn more work better now.com thanks Rob and we're back Sarah I want to ask you are are you losing interest in joining a group well you know I was just going to ask Leo like my question is is you know whenever when I talk to clients and they're work they want to they consider working with us one of the biggest questions that they give us are what is the return on my investment in you going to be can you guarantee anything which is a whole another topic for PR and how do we measure that what are what are the kpis that we're going to the key performance indicators that we're going to use to gauge whether or not we're we're Meeting those goals my question for you Leo is how do I know I'm getting a return on investment what kind of return on the investment can I expect I think it's different for everyone but your example is fantastic because I owned my own PR firm as well and there's nothing worse than when you're in a situation You' think you've done really great work and then all of a sudden you're talking to the client the client's somehow disappointed and you're like wait a minute you know and what you realize is that you you didn't have clarity about what success looks like from the very start and I think that's what has to be clear on both sides when you imagine joining a group it's it's thinking about why am I doing it what are the key performance indicators for me that will let me uh have a sense of what success looks like um so that you're clear on that and then how do we go about measuring that how do we think about that together and what that looks like so I think that's an essential part of this or quite frankly any relationship like this right that we have whether we're joining a group or hiring a PR firm or whatever it happens to be I think this is like asking how do you know when you're in love I mean this is not like I disagree I don't think this is like PR or anything like if you're in a group and it's working every meeting you go home thinking wow that was great whether it's giving you confidence whether it's giving you Insight whether you learned something important that you can use in your marketing St I mean this could be a lifechanging event being in a business group and I just think you're either going to know it or you're not I it's or you're going to leave there thinking oh my God I just wasted a whole day listening to that guy wine for four hours I think that's 100% true except you have to meet people where they are the question related to whether someone who's considering first joining a group what does that look like and how do you set those um expectations for what's going on there's no question that once you join the group you begin to discover all kinds of things and all kinds of benefits that are very very powerful and you start to look at that Roi very very differently than when you uh did from the very beginning so I I kind of agree with both of you in that regard I mean I think the questions at the beginning are really important and I think over time when you experience being part of a group you're and you're in a good group you're going to get exactly what Jay talked about I mean I would almost say the opposite I would say and I respect 18 Grand is a lot of money of course I respect it I'm saying I would ask the question could you sit in the room for 12 months with other business owners and not figure something out about management marketing or finance that is going to change your trajectory of your business even just a little bit it's kind of hard to imagine if you're in the right group that it won't pay for itself I think that's that's a fair point but it's the perspective of someone who's been involved in six groups uh in their life and I think that's a really good one and I think it provides people some sense of of what's to come I think for someone who's looking to participate in this experience for the very first time they'll have to discover exactly what you have and I think that that's a you know a fair you know addition to the conversation for sure so here's a question about the groups though in terms of the makeup how how big are these groups because I know that that Jay has mentioned like size of eight at one point during this conversation and are are there going to be other PR agencies in there like and and what's their incentive on on divulging and providing me guidance U if essentially I'm a competitor or for one thing at least in the mixed groups if you will right people that come into these groups who represent different industry sectors and all of that most groups that I know of in terms of organizations that run them do not allow for competitors to be in the same room and for good reason you know the you want to be able to talk about your business very openly and not have a competitor in the room but you can learn from other people who are in very different kinds of businesses but who share very common challenge with you but by the same token can offer a really different perspective so you know it's it's a great question Leo why don't we ask the opposite question are there people that shouldn't be in groups and I would say absolutely there are some people's personality they don't belong in groups they're too sensitive or they're too afraid to say what's on their mind or they're not really into their business there's plenty of people that really are better off not spending the 18 Grand and going to meetings every month and doing a little soul searching on are you really trying to improve your business do you have an open mind are you open to change do you have a thickish skin I'm not saying people are yelling at you calling you stupid but sure people that are overly sensitive it's like do everyone a favor please don't join a group or or to your point the opposite of that is the person who's going to be borish who thinks that I'm going to join a group so I can teach everyone else what I know about the world right so there's no question you know being part of a peer Advisory Group is absolutely not for everybody I mean statistically correct me if I'm wrong there can't be more than one or two% of business owners are in a peer Advisory Group the math doesn't I mean there's a lot of businesses in the United States and there aren't that many groups so most business people are not in a peer Advisory Group that's right it's barely that and right this is the whole reason for the first book it was the idea that how could there be something out there that exists that is so powerful and so effective for so many be used by so few and I think the idea was at least try to put together a narrative so that people would have an understanding of what this is all about if it's for you great you know you're going to be opened up to A Whole New World that you're going to find to be incredibly valuable to you but if it's not that's okay too but at least you have had the opportunity to evaluate it Leo is there some other reason why there aren't more people in groups I mean it's hard to believe that it's a question of marketing I think most business owners are aware that these groups exist or am I wrong I couldn't disagree more Lauren they do horrible marketing they do no I mean it I very seldom have anyone ever calling I don't see any ads on it I I don't think they are doing a great job maybe they've heard about you Jay maybe well I don't think so they were always happy to get me how do they find you I mean like for example like I've I've run my own business for you know a while um and I've never been reached out to by one of these groups first of all second of all what is the application process like yeah so I I think that's a fair point clearly regarding the marketing because I I think that most people actually are not as nearly aware Lauren as you might think about these groups and the fact that they exist and and that it's for them you know at all and part of it too is many of these organizations even if people look at vistage and YPO and they think they're so big and all that stuff they're really not when you consider from a marketing perspective they don't just compete with one another they compete for every marketing message thrown in your direction in the course of Any Given given day week month or over the course of the year and it's not even close you know I mean it's extremely difficult to cut through in many respects and also people you know get into a flow of what they're doing and how they're doing things and to introduce something um brand new into their lives which is essentially what these groups do is is a tall order and it's it kind of I think is is a lot of work um for people Sarah you had a second part to that was it about the application process yeah like am I am I applying for college again I wouldn't say you're quite applying for college again I think that um I'd like to think that the best groups out there and and the leaders of those groups even though it can come across this way literally aren trying to sell you for being part of a group they're trying to figure out it's more of an executive recruiting initiative than it is a sales one it's it's trying to hopefully figure out whether there's a good fit here and and whether this makes sense for for everyone that you become part of a group and they ask all the right questions I think you know to make that happen and and and you know this has come up a little bit in terms of you know incentive for leaders to either recruit members or not kick members out and all of that I I think any good leader of a group recognizes that you know when you have one toxic member it's a it's a problem that's going to create a huge you know issue for down the road and and then when you're bringing a new member into the group you've got to bring someone in who on one hand yes they have to bring value in a way that's that's different and additive but at the same time culturally they have to be kind of fit for that particular group that makes sense I haven't found one person in these six groups that was toxic the problem was they had nothing to bring to the group one of these groups there's no question about it I don't care if it's any peer Advisory Group any company team whatever it's only as strong as its members and so um if if you've got members that aren't bringing value there's a conversation we had there Sarah do you have other questions yeah I just do they all go to a restaurant together do they sit in a conference room like do they you bring is there food and lunch sered during these things like what is the vibe I'm just kind of curious about that also I apologize for my dog I have a dog these are good questions I mean the reality it is that there are a lot of groups that either meet at a particular location where they get everyone together and there's usually a little bit of breakfast and mingling at the front and they have a morning session they'll have lunch together and they meet in the afternoon other groups will meet at in a rotating basis at whatever member's location and this can be particularly interesting if someone is running a manufacturing facility for example and you get to see maybe over lunch and you get a little bit of a tour about how they make their product and what they do what they do um and you know there's other entities in the same way that have workplaces that are actually really great to be part of to see where these people live and and what they're doing so the the meetings will shift from month to month to the specific workplaces yes there is typically as I mentioned breakfast and and lunch and just an opportunity to spend quality time together once a month that um can be obviously really important to these spok Leo do you have uh questions you would suggest someone ask before choosing a group uh if you're meeting with a chair if you're meeting with members of a group what do you want to know yeah I'd like them to walk me through a typical meeting and what they think is a really successful meeting what does that look like for them um you know I think would be a great question I think um how do people you know accept being challenged um in in a group setting like this what is the dynamic like and you know how do they tend to handle that I think would be another that's kind of Jay's question question yeah yeah here's the questions I'd ask one is I absolutely want to know the background of the person that's running the group where did where did they learn about business what's their experience why do they run a group I want to know what that's all about two I want to know about what do you do to you know vet people that are coming into the group what's important to you as the group leader what are you looking for in a person three I'd want to ask can you give me an example of maybe you blew it on one and you shouldn't have had them in the group have you fired anybody from the group and why did you fire them from the group and then maybe four I'd ask okay Bob you said you have 12 people in the group what's the Dynamics uh are there a couple of lead dogs in there that are usually the ones that are I walk me through who's and find out who's in the group and and and in my case and maybe this is just my thing I'd want to know how many entrepreneurs are in the group because in my little experience I've been only one of two and I'm told some groups half of them are entrepreneurs and and business owners are not entrepreneurs it's not the same thing entrepreneurs take risks start things and other people run businesses they might be really good at running businesses extremely good they might build up gigantic businesses but there is a difference in mentality and I'd want to know what's the com what is the complexion of the group and I did not do any of that when I went into the groups frankly so I should have but who knew I think Jay's asking questions about things that are important to him and I think that's what everybody should do you know I'm unusual because I'm a business J I just love figuring stuff out and I love business so I don't want to talk about golf I don't care about the wine I want to talk about the business and maybe I'm onedimensional that's okay I'll live with that and there's other people that do want to spend a lot of time here's a question for sure I'd ask what percentage would you say is business and what percentage is personal I'd want to know that if they say 75% business 25% personal I probably would go look for a different group because that doesn't interest me now let me ask you this so you said 75% 25% personal and it's not interested to you because that's too much personal at 25% no no and when I say personal I want to be specific if they're having a personal issue I'm happy to I'm talking about hearing about their vacations and the golfing that's what I'm talking about chitchat I have no interest in that so I'd like a group that's 90% business and 10% chitchat so would it surprise you that of all of the groups I visited I would say that by far and this is certainly not true of every single group or every single person but that many of these Business Leaders find it actually more difficult to share business issues with the group than they do personal issues with the group difficult in what sense Leo they don't want to compromise their currency as a CEO and that in a group of other CEOs in particular that they don't know something or they're afraid of something or they're not um you know aware you know of something and of course groups that have been together long enough soon and quickly understand that not everyone in that room is an expert and everything and it's among the reasons they're there that everyone brings different strengths to the table and this is how they help each other but sometimes it can take a little bit of time for people who have to stick their toes in the water a little bit and feel like you know I'm I'm going to have to admit that I don't know something that then they don't want to have everyone else in the room feeling like they're being judged for not knowing that so that can that can be tricky I find that very sad and probably true I just to me that's why you join a group to you know I I just find that very sad and they get there eventually do group members sign ndas in a lot of groups yes they there's a confidentiality agreement Jay Laura Xander said uh on this podcast that she doesn't want to be a member of a group because she doesn't want to compare herself to a lot of you know highly successful people that are going to force her to leave every meeting thinking darn you know there's 12 things I should be doing that I'm not doing and I have the opposite approach I would leave there thinking wow I need to work on that all right we're just about out of time here I got two quick questions before we end uh first Sarah are you still interested yeah I mean I'm not going to jump in into the water like head first um I think that what Leo said about asking a lot of questions is is a good place to start maybe even going and and sitting in on a a meeting I am a kind of person that is I'm always looking to make my business better so yeah I'm interested um and you know if my my p&l allows me to do it next year maybe it would be something that I'll put in my budget last question for you Leo my friend Jay here obviously has some strongly held views about business groups my question for you is if you were a vistage chair do you want Jay in your group I would want Jay in my group W because I I think Jay listens but he also has clarity about um what he believes and and I think that's good I think that's a perspective that people need to hear you know the issue isn't whether everyone agrees or any of this other stuff it's that Jay brings a a history of someone who's been involved in a half a dozen groups for well over 30 years his business experience his business Acumen um things that are I think nuggets for everybody in the group and and I think that um they would grow to appreciate Jay just as we you know do on this podcast you know it's it's great so I would welcome him in my group all right my thanks to Jay goz Sarah seagull and especially Leo B and also thanks to our sponsor work better now have a good week everybody wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that that's l o r n at21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you really think you can take it and if you got something out of this conversation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcast follow us on Twitter subscribe to the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by just through Baron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone hey