The Most Expensive Hire You Will Ever Make

[Music] hello everyone welcome to what used to be the 21 hats podcast and is now the business Advantage TV podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman for years I listen to business owners talk about how tight the job market was and how hard it was to find good employees well so much for that funny thing though in this week's episode William Vander Blum and Jay Golds talk about how in many ways hiring has gotten even harder during the crisis part of it is having to rely more heavily on Zoom as Williams says if the work you're hiring them to do is virtual work then virtual interviewing is awesome but of course that's not always the case perhaps an even bigger issue is having to sift through the many people who are suddenly available to find the right person the fact of the matter Jay tells us is that when companies lay people off they don't generally lay off their best people first bottom line Williams says is this the most expensive hire you will ever make is hiring the wrong person I mean you can spend all the money you want on a search firm and it's still not as expensive as hiring the wrong person even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will if nothing else let owners know they are not alone in facing these challenges this week's lineup features William Vander blumen who is CEO of Vander blumen Search Group a recruiting firm based in Houston that works with churches and other faith-based organizations and Jay goz whose businesses in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home the episode is titled the most expensive hire you will ever [Music] make so William we haven't uh spoken with you in a few weeks how's business well I mean it's just great Lauren everything's wonderful I'm glad to hear that no I I think it's as good as I had hoped and you know we'll have to wait and see I I have a friend Lauren who has a he's a preacher and he has a sermon titled the longest sentence in the English language and you're like oo what's the longest sentence in the English language and it's it's the whole message is built around the the sentence we'll have to wait and see and that is the longest sentence right whether you're at a job interview or at the doctor's office or waiting to see what happens with the pandemic but uh you know I think I think things are moving along the course that we plotted way back in March I wish it were faster but it's not give us a status report Can you estimate you know what what percentage of normal C capacity are you operating it we had retooled our business to sustain a 25% drop for the year and we're running a little bit ahead of that we're probably year-over-year looking like more like a somewhere between 15 and 20% drop now I think the big tell for us will be in about October because that'll be about you know six weeks after schools have pretty well started back and you know what we're able to we'll see how we're doing with the virus if it's a total breakdown breakout and a shutdown then we'll have to retool things again if it goes with some semblance of normaly then you know we that'll that'll mean a better year than 15 to 20% down uh we just did a a really interesting survey we don't have all the results in yet from all the people that received PPP funds that had contacted us during the flurry of activity for PPP just to remind people you helped a lot of churches get PPP funds is that who you primarily referring to and faith-based schools I mean we had synagogues we had Jewish schools we had Christian Schools I'm fairly certain that of the faith-based organizations that received PPP money we interacted with over 20% of them in the country that's right wow it's kind of Staggering if you think about it so we're wait isn't that thousands of people how how many would that be wouldn't it to be thousands tens tens of thousands yeah we we interacted with over 20,000 and I think it's something like 990,000 receed date so it it was unbeliev and and probably only 2,000 of those were people we knew before all this when you say interaction that doesn't mean that you handled the application for them you're saying they they attended one of your uh webinars or something like that right yeah although I would say the vast majority of those people it was we didn't fill out anybody's application I don't want that liability but but we did walk them through things like we created a calculator that was free like enter your payroll enter your headcount enter you know we we had seminars on how to fill out your forgiveness thing and people would write in I mean hundreds of people a day would write in with the most minuscule question and we'd get back to them real fast so it was somewhere between filling out their application and oh they just clicked on a link does that make sense sure that sounds like you had a lot of contact with a lot of potential customers for the future is that what you're hoping well what we were hoping was to serve some people right right so sorry to backtrack but we looked backwards at uh when when when all the junk hit the fan you know I had a couple of options in front of me one was to massively cut our payroll just to the Bone and cut expenses the other was to do a fire sale lower our fees to uh in during this crisis time D and uh save money squirrel away money for the future and we chose to do neither of those uh we did trim the staff some but we chose to say we're going to apply for PPP we're going to use that money that salary money to pay our people to serve other people and we were frankly taking a queue from some of our church clients that were spending their payroll money having their their staff get out and serve their local community whether it was feeding centers or you know just direct help so so our Hope was to help people but I think a byproduct of doing the right thing sometimes is is a good business benefit and we have geometrically increased our database and our mail list and all the things that we would have been paying Google AdWords to try and do for us I I think that the monetary like we back ended it and looked at the monetary uh spend we would have had to make to increase our database by the same number and it it was well into seven figures I want to get back to to this William and to whether churches are actually hiring to do searches right now but first Jay I want to check in with you how how are you doing business is good people are framing pictures I got Plexi hanging over every sales counter everybody's wearing a mask um the home store is doing well my wholesale business selling other frame shops is is picking up nicely I mean people have been stuck at home and um you know they're out and about and you know I would say going off of what William just said you know going into Retreat mode it's all about cash flow if you don't the cash you don't have the cash but if you do have enough cash which the PPP did help it's never a good thing to go into Retreat mode and he just Illustrated an excellent example of doing the right thing is always a good thing to do and he's helping out churches and I'm helping out customers and you got to be careful not to go into defense and go oh we can't deliver this week you talked to us in the past about uh a competitor that might be going out of business uh are has anything come of that so I've met with him um I made him an offer he wanted to sell this whole building he inherited the business he's turning 50 now he's had it he wants to move on I my kids are in real estate you're not implying that anybody turning 50 is no he's just done I'm just saying he's I'm just painting the picture for you he he wants to be done he doesn't need the money anymore he wanted to sell his building my kids who were in real estate figured out what the building worth made him an offer and he said oh no I think it's worth more and then I said okay well how about if I take over the store because if you go to sell it to a third party it's always good to have a tenant in there well I want to get a 5year lease I said well I don't really want to come in for five years and at the end of the day he decided he doesn't want to do anything and it's all friendly but he's just doesn't want to do anything with you does that mean he's going to keep running the store no he's closing it apparently he has enough money and there's a whole emotional thing to this he took over the business from his father who died and it was his grandfather's and he just wants the name to be you know put away in a tomb somewhere and never be used again and and like sometimes it just turns into two things doesn't need the money very important and emotional it gets down to just because something makes a whole lot of sense doesn't mean someone's going to make the right decision Jay you also have a uh a home store are people buying furniture right now yeah absolutely no the home Jason home is doing nicely and I will tell you what I've learned through this whole thing just because there's a pandemic doesn't mean that customers still don't want good service don't want delivery don't want with that being said this sounds this sounds small but it isn't my hours for my frame store from the day I opened I took from my father's Dime Store who opened in 1957 so I've been dealing with 1957 hours which is open at 9: close at 6 well the world has changed in the last uh you know 63 years or whatever I open I decided to start opening a 10 now because and I gotta tell you it's just made life a lot easier that extra hour you for you for everybody I mean for me it's like it's it's just like you know I can leave a little later in the morning even though the traffic's much lighter now still I miss the traffic my employees are missing missing the rush hour and like you know what nobody died it's okay we're opening a 10 now and it took a pandemic to get me to do that frankly I probably should have done it 20 years ago you know the other thing that's changed is everyone's got your hours right on their phone now so it's not like in the olden days that oh my God I got here and your clothed are you staying open later no no we were open till 7 I think we frankly I'm embarrassed to tell you I I don't I don't know the even open at night now I think we're closing at 6 but like people are okay with some small adjustments but this made life a lot easier for everybody it just but it was a small thing but there's other stuff like deliveries we're we're not cutting back on stuff for instance this big restaurant chain I order a mushroom burger it's like they don't have mushrooms you know what I want mushrooms on my mushroom burger I don't know what to tell you there's supply chain issues for everybody right now Jay but that's my question do you really think there aren't any mushrooms out there I have a hard time believing there aren't any mushrooms maybe there aren't but I just think there's a case of somebody there said oh we don't need to get mushrooms we're in a pandemic really I don't know I I'm going somewhere else now that is mushroom I don't know every week I hear something surprising that's in short supply maybe maybe but an Italian restaurant doesn't have bread I stopped ordering there because I really want bread with my Italian stuff so you know I I think that you got to be careful where you're cutting back William uh back to you uh are churches hiring you to do searches right now yes um the type of searches has skewed much much more toward a senior pastor search so and and schools now schools hire cyclically it's mostly January to March is when the hiring happens but the schools that are hiring us it's for ahead of school and I think the a couple things have happened um I mean you'd think with unemployment High although it went down a little bit in today's report um who needs a search firm when there's so many unemployed people actually you need one more because you don't want to hire you know A desperate person who just needs a job especially when it's a faith-based thing where you're supposed to be going for a calling and not just a paycheck and and then the other piece is um you know people are like we we're without a leader now we can't be without a leader during this time that doesn't that doesn't work and we've got to get it right and how are we going to get out there and and search on our own I even had one person this is kind of funny uh I didn't even think about it I was talking to a sweet person on a search committee at a church and they said well don't take this the wrong way but I'd rather pay you to risk getting on a plane than [Laughter] me so yeah no no problem we'll take the business but uh yes they are hiring and if we talk again in a week I'll have much more thorough details from our survey of PPP people we'll have thousands of results in a week but the early results are very consistent that over 80% of the people who receive PPP have not changed their staff headcount from a year ago today so the the the massive layoffs that you might anticipate with charitable giving organizations not happening and and that's really good news I think well partially because they did that because they want to make sure it gets you know taken out as a grant you know as a grant and you you got to keep your head count up well not now not now that day is passed expired a month and a half ago that over so you could have gotten through whatever hold on I got to go a few people hold on I got exactly exactly I think that people are still kind of keeping their powder dry trying to figure out what especially larger churches where you know they're not going to have in-person Gatherings for a while so it it's it's everybody's kind of in this wait and see mode you know longest sentence in the English language but it's better than I thought it would be what's changed about hiring William uh is it easier now because there's so many people unemployed no it's way harder it's way harder why would that be uh well for starters interviewing over Zoom is nothing like interviewing in person and I you know zoom's a great way to talk to people you already know but first impressions over virtual are very very difficult especially if you're talking about working together and and especially if the work is not going to be virtual work like one day you're going to be back in an office so the the skill that's needed to assess someone and whether or not they're fit is much more acute than it was um before we were you know bound to remote interviewing secondly you know if you look at search firms historically do very well during churn so when when the labor Market's tight and there's you can't get anybody search firms come in handy because they can convince people to believe the other side of things is when there are lots of layoffs search firms do do well because you've got unemployed people out there and you know if I were unemployed I'd apply with every search firm and with every but with every possible job opening but but employers have to be careful they're not just hiring somebody who just wants a paycheck uh because undoing a bad hire is uh you know more costly it slows the organization down and and people just can't afford it so we're actually pretty bullish on our need in the future it's kind of like the you know I'm reading all these you know business interest stories now you know we still watch the how many hospitalizations every day but like it seems like the media cycle has turned toward isn't it interesting how the pandemic has affected this like Revlon is expecting 70% drop in sales this year because everyone's wearing a mask so no one's wearing lipstick you know oh I never thought of that well search firms are kind of under that same heading like I never really thought about it but I guess you would rather pay somebody to help with the search than get it wrong when there's so many new ways to get it wrong there's another issue here which maybe you're too nice to say but I'll say it for you the fact of the matter is when people lay people off generally companies don't say okay let's lay off our best people first I mean the fact is when the layoffs start there's a lot of people in the marketplace that were barely holding on to the job so you're saying there are a lot more people to choose among right now but it's more dangerous because yeah there's more people out there and and the best people in the marketplace probably you're the last ones that get laid off so there's just a lot more is that not true generally and I mean I mean we could go on and on this is going to turn into a commercial for our business but think about this so you want to go after somebody who's happily employed right yeah so how are you Jay going to convince someone to move across the country and inject a whole new level of uncertainty in their life during the most uncertain time in the last century like you know anytime you move you're adding uncertainty am I gonna like Jay are we gonna work together I have to tell you I gonna fit in Chicago every single thing you're saying makes perfect sense as someone who's been hiring for years it all makes perfect sense that just because unemployment's higher doesn't mean it's going to be easier to hire no there's more people looking and now there's a smoke screen out there oh well you know it was a pandemic so they had to let me go you know it's a smoke screen and that's certainly there are hardworking great employees that were laid off through no fault of their own there's no question about that so the people are getting mad at me hear me very clearly I'm sure there are some great people that got laid off through no fault of their own okay I said that with that being said there's lots of people that were marginal employees that no one had the stomach to fire lay off that just gave them just gave them cover to do it and there's no question that they all look alike the resumés though that's the problem and that's where the search firm comes in it's it's trickier so William you raised a couple of interesting issues uh one how do you connect with someone over zoom in that situation do you have any tips for anybody who's trying to do that on their own and and how do you convince somebody to move across the country at a time like this yeah I have a couple of resources if you just Google uh Vander blumen zoom and you can spell Vander Bloomin however you want it's weird enough that Google will pick it up right the right way um you'll see things I've written for various business Publications one for Forbes U several for our blog that kind of we've created a whole toolkit of resources to try and help people but you know I'm reminded uh I I'm guessing you two don't listen to country music I'm just guessing but uh I live in Texas so you know we do and there's this old song by Brad Paisley that says I look so much better online this he's this short fat guy that lives in his mom's basement and plays online all the time he says but online I'm 6 fo5 and mysterious and girls think I'm cool and you know all and and there's so much about interviewing and searching that's true about that I mean it's never been easier to look better online than you really are the most expensive hire you will ever make is hiring the wrong person Bar None when you spend all the money you want on a search firm is still not as expensive as hiring the wrong person so the the the quick tips I would Google Vander blo and zoom and you'll find tons of Articles just little simple things to look for U but at the end of the day give us one oh um you know are one are they on time I mean that's the easiest one that's your first contract with a person your first goal that you're setting your first kpi is meet me at 10 for well if they're late you know golly can I give you my opinion up here's mine mine is it is easier to make a to to be a great interviewer and be a a mediocre or bad employee than it is to get people to lie for you so I would say one word references and people go they roll their eyes oh people just give their friends baloney I've gotten I've called lots of references that within 30 seconds they cave because no one wants to lie for a bad employee so people frequently do not check references and if they do I just had one last week they're just looking to validate themsel you you I just threw him a bone even I said the person's good at this this and this but they have absolutely no management skills whatsoever do you think there was a follow-up question what do you mean by that no okay thanks they just hired a really bad employee and like I'm not going to volunteer it but I I played fair I gave them an opening to ask me the question and they didn't take it so almost never have I no I'm not almost never never have I had someone call for a reference on someone and really put the screws to me and make me tell them something that I didn't want to tell them because people don't do it so I think people under not think I am confident that people undervalue calling references and I would agree that nine out of 10 times is the waste of time but that one out of 10 you just saved yourself from hiring the wrong employee that's what William was just saying absolutely it makes up for the other nine you called it were just it's people don't call ref es generally am am I wrong William no you're not wrong and by the time they call them they've already made up their mind absolutely it's like just as you said just validate my conclusion please and and I've done the same thing I've heard our coo I happen to know very well I knew he was the right guy I checked his references and and I if you're in that spot that's not necessarily a bad thing but but what you can do that's a great reference question that people don't think of is you can say all right I was talking to Sutton's reference Todd I said Todd I think you and I both know I'm going to hire Sutton and I'm doing this perfunctory reference call let me turn it and say this if you were hiring Sutton what would you do to maximize his talent and to minimize risks and and that's a very disarming question so all of a sudden you're not asking me is it a bad person or a good person you just saying where are they good and what do I need to watch and he was like now that is a really good question so it it freed him up to say and of course we still hired something that's been great but but it could be a great reference question I I think there unfortunately though Jay you know most people don't call references until late in the game and sometimes it's just necessary you can't call a current employer or they'll get fired right so so I do think honing interview skills is critical and I don't know how to replace face-to-face interviewing with the with virtual in the with the one exception of if the work you're hiring them to do is virtual work then virtual interviewing is awesome but if if there's any in-person interaction that people are going to have particularly if they're client facing I it's just incredibly difficult and Lauren I don't know how to tell people to get good at that I have well I say I our team has about 25,000 reps of interviewing people over Zoom or Skype over the years so sometimes you're not you're not the expert because you're smarter you're just the expert because you've got more repetitions and that's where I think people are going to see it's worth the money to pay somebody who's good at this how could it not be if your odds of successor how could the math not work to go hire someone to help you if they're better at than you are I you know I want to ask you both there's a big debate going on right now about the uh $600 Federal bonus that just expired that uh was being paid to uh unemployed people uh some people focus on the $600 per week per person that was being injected into the economy that it's helped keep the economy float uh a lot of business owners have complained that it has made it harder to get employees to come back to work and maybe even uh to hire people I'm I'm curious what you both think William have you has that been an issue for you um it has not been an issue for me people have uh we didn't have anybody that we fured that we tried bring back what about is your function as a search firm have you dealt with it with some of the organizations you represent no most of our uh because we're an executive Search firm and not like a staffing Placement Firm most of the jobs we're asked to fill or the salaries are well in excess of what is it $30,000 a year is $600 a week um so yeah but but I do have plenty of restaurant owner friends uh I was over VIs visting with some neighbors last night and we were 6 F feet apart but we were visiting in their house and uh they own a a gym and they're like we can't get people to come back we can't pay them as much money as the government's paying them right now so I think it's real it hadn't impacted our business though I've seen people on TV going oh it's exaggerated you know what all these Talking Heads I wish one of them ran a business just one of them just I just just one of them would run a business because that is just not true there are lots of businesses out there that are having a problem with this because even if somebody makes $40,000 a year which is not minimum wage they are literally getting twice as much money not working as if they were working that's problem that's a problem and then the problem isn't they can't just go oh I'm making more money at home they say oh I'm really worried about coming into work because you know my grandmother visits me once a week it really puts people in an impossible situation so I simply ask government would it be so hard to just say we're going to make sure no one makes more sitting at home than they is it really that cumbersome to just put something you know you know Jay it's so interesting that you bring this up because no matter where I look I've never seen our country more politicized than it is right now and more polarized and and everything is a political and do you want a new president or do you want to keep the current president or whatever and the one place that I see it differ is uh if you ask business owners questions I have business owner friends that I vehemently disagree with politically and we 100% agree on things like this yeah there's just something about owning a business where you're the you're the bottom line that that changes perspective and sort of depoliticizes things it makes it more about common sense or it's called reality we're dealing with it and and and I'm not saying get rid of the 600 I'm going if somebody was making 80 grand a year okay no problem but for someone who was making 40 to get double their income to not work how does that make sense to anybody and we're not talking a little money here we're talking about literally millions of people that have been making it's it's going to turn into billions of dollars how does that make sense to anybody it is putting money into the economy there is a benefit that business owners derive from that so I'm not saying I I'm not an economist I'm not saying I know have the answer as to whether this was a good strategy or a bad strategy but let's not pretend that there isn't some reason for doing this take that same money and give it to the other people who did take a pay cut and that extend it longer why don't we give it where the pain is instead of just all just oh you got lucky here you're gonna make twice as much income further than that this isn't people who got lucky these are people who are unemployed they're unemployed but they're making more they're making twice the income not working why not take that extra money and give it to people who really need it why would they need more why would they need to make as much money sitting home is they were making Lauren Lauren Lauren you're you're losing this one two to one buddy I I couldn't agree with you more I have good friends who were cutting their household budget and they they're an affluent couple and they have a a nanny and they you know pay the nanny a very fair wage but they realize we need to cut our budget a little bit so we're going to furlough The Nanny because she's going to make about ,000 a month more sitting at home than she is working for us and I don't think it's just about the money Jay I think that people were made to work and and if you sit at home it does not help your overall well-being for the record I'm trying to uh illuminate this discussion and point out some of the Nuance that I think Jay was missing I'm not missing at all I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong but I think there there issues to keep in mind here and Jay you raised one of them I you know some people don't want to go to work because they do have a compromised person at home and that's that's a legitimate issue no problem stay at home that's fine stay at home and get unemploy no problem but don't make twice as much money but the other thing is what does it say about a person if they're really for no other reason choosing not to go to work because they are temporarily getting more money from the federal government on this bonus which has in fact expired right now doesn't exist as we speak um why would some someone choose not to take a job that presumably is going to go on for a benefit that clearly has an expiration date even if they extended well here's the difference I have I have I have personal contacts and friends who were fured by their company and have and have been told you're not coming back and have opted to not even begin to look for a job until it's expired I think there's a reason and I'm not an economist but there's a reason unemployment came in better today than expected and I bet now that this is expired unemployment continues to drop a little bit because hiring is a two-way street you got to have employers that want to hire but you got to have people that want to go interview and and I think I think you're going to see it start to correct itself I do hate that the spet gets totally turned off I I'm with Jay I think if there was some way if there were some way to say we want to make you whole until you can or partially whole or enough to get absolutely yeah yeah absolutely yeah extend it longer don't and and and the theoretical thing with you have a hard time believing it well that's unfortunate but that's the reality Lauren I'm on the front line of it so are another three million business owners it is reality there are people that would like to sit home and get twice as much money and play this thing out it is reality it's not a theory and that's the part that that the Talking Heads don't seem to accept take that extra money extend the benefits from hey Jay I think that extra cup of coffee is kicking in I needed it see I knew you were G to give me a hard time in this so I wanted to get ready for it so yes I had my my double my double coffee thing and I don't drink coffee so I'm I I knew I was ready to go to battle and I feel like I've completely dominated this so thank you super coffee as seen on Shark Tank all right we only have a few minutes left I'm curious if we're far enough into this thing that you guys have already identified things that have changed that aren't going back um William are there things that you've learned are there Technologies you've adopted has your process changed in a way that you have no doubt will continue on long after this ends whenever that is you know we're not in an industry that has been utterly disrupted I know there's some that I mean my goodness they're doing things differently and oh boy how I would have loved to have owned a plexiglass company a year ago oh they're doing pretty good this year but but our world I think what I've noticed and and not just our business but our clients business is co might be remembered as the great accelerator so there were changes that were the church is not known for accepting change quickly right I mean historically churches and bad and new ideas are they don't get along um but you know a lot of our clients are fairly Innovative and entrepreneurial they already had an online service it my mother attends a wonderful traditional Presbyterian Church of 200 or 250 people in the woods of North Carolina or the mountains if you want to be a chamber of commerce but it's the woods and if their new pastor back in January if their new pastor had said I've got an idea why don't we live stream all of our worship over the internet for the whole world to see he would have been laughed out of the boardroom no way it was a change that was happening but it was happening very slowly and would have come a long time from now now for that low Presbyterian church now they're online all the time so there it was a great accelerator uh for us you know we do exec search which is top level search but a lot of our clients need help with middle level positions well that's not really what we do but but we have learned how to do that so Co accelerated us into we actually it'll launch in a week but we're opening a new business for mid-level search it'll be completely virtually done that would not have been acceptable uh you know 5 years ago 10 years ago and it might not have been accepted five years from now were it not for this great accelerator and to be utterly clear so I don't sound like I'm contradicting things I said earlier this is help me find a high school math teacher for the school we serve help us find a staff accountant for you know midlevel sort of staffing agency things that where the the the process now can be done virtually and done quite well and and uh it's not that there are changes that are here to stay as much as changes that got here quicker than they would have without Co totally totally agree got it Jay I want to ask you the same question and you can take it wherever you want have you already seen things change um I'm GNA give you three things completely all in different categories of Entrepreneurship one I'm gonna have to consider there's going to be some people that want to work from home which I would have never considered before it's working okay I don't know where it's going to end up but that's an open conversation now people working from home two William used a phrase that I've used a thousand times that I want to I want to remind all the entrepreneurs he said Dry powder so I've said oh I've got my building it's paid off it's dry powder if I ever need the cash it's dry powder in a keg that's nailed shut and I don't have a hammer I have been through nine Banks literally I'm not exaggerating eight I went through eight Banks and wanted to get a 50% loan to value on the building I've got plenty of assets to cover it I've got a huge life insurance policy it is literally a zero risk loan and not one of these banks will lend me against the building because they're afraid I'm not going to make money even though I've got plenty of okay so what I learned though and I just figured this out yesterday my kids in real estate he went to his real estate Bank the real estate bank is throwing is ready to do the deal no problem so what I've learned is now's the time to figure out whether you're at the right bank or not because when things get bad nobody wants anything to do with you and unfortunately in business you go through some Cycles so I'll be changing Banks to this real estate bank and three is um good business practices are good business practices and I feel very good about the fact that we haven't lowered our service level and that customers appreciate that and that I just have to tell you one funny anecdote huge company Home Depot they have a sign in their front door you'll appreciate this it says we're opening earlier for our elderly customers that's senior elderly so we're elderly now and I looked up the definition of elderly most people call elderly 80 plus or something and I'm just thinking this is a huge multi- gazillion dollar company they couldn't come up with copy that they all stuck to so and it's on their front door and everybody sees it nobody thinks anything of it except I looked at and I just I just laughed like elderly so 60 is now El elderly according to Home Depot like I said before there's some bad decisions that are being made so um those are my three things William Vander Blum and Jay goz as always thank you for taking the time I really appreciate it always good to be here always good Lauren thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman 21h hats.com see you next time [Music]