The Vomit List

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week Jay G and William vanderlan talk about what it takes in the throws of an unprecedented labor shortage to hold on to your best people the ones whose departures might send you looking for a trash can they also discuss whether high or slow still works whether it's a good idea to rehire a former employee whether it's still possible to do a meaningful reference check how to use 360 reviews and personality tests and finally whether Jay and William would be ready to sell their business if someone were to come along and offer them twice what they think it's worth even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which highlights the most important news of the day for business owners and which you can subscribe to at 21h hats.com where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Jay goz whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and a home furnishing store Jason home and William Vander blumen who is CEO of Vander bloomen Search Group a recruiting firm based in Houston that works with churches and other faith-based organizations the episode is titled the vomit list welcome Jay and William it's great to have you here William we haven't spoken in a while how are you what's going on no it's just been a regular year you know nothing oh wait there's been a great resignation I called this uh great resignation or covid job churn or whatever I think you called it the co turnover William yeah about about a year ago almost exactly to the day and by the way I think that's a better name than the great resignation it's it's really about turnover people aren't just resigning and you know leaving work yeah well I called it and was bracing for uh you know a a big rush of churn in terms of jobs we were being asked to do candidates coming through our door that sort of thing I I failed to consider that it might actually happen to me and so we've had our own version of musical chairs this year but but we're coming out on the other side really really well so here's a lesson Lauren here here's one of the lessons I learned in the pandemic um as a small business owner if every one of your clients has to close indefinitely it will change your year right right so 2020 was the first year ever that we had them grown in fact we we uh We Shrunk some and uh less than I thought we would but but our goal for this year has been uh to have to be within 5 to 10 percentage points of 2019 which was our record year ever and as it stands today we're actually a little ahead of 2019 um with fewer people on payroll and uh so you know lot of lot of churn Even in our own house um but I think we're coming out on the on the other side stronger more efficient uh more productive and uh you know we've got some new team members that have really added a lot so I I try and tell our clients you anytime somebody leaves it's not a chance to replace it's a chance to ratchet up and and we're we're in the middle of doing that ourselves so it's been a fun year I have not worked this hard in a long long time where do you think we are now William what what do you expect in the coming year more more of the same I don't think that I don't what whoever's shaking the tree they're not finished yet and and some of that is going to be more of the same Dynamics one that I did not foresee a year ago that I think is an aggravating Factor that's going to prolong this job churn is inflation um and what I mean want to say that well depending on where you are in the country you're going to have to pay your people 4 to 7% more next year just to match the wages of this year and uh not everybody's going to do that and that's going to lead to some more churn very very smart that is true the shake see I would call the metaphor differently I would say the shaking of the trees continuing but most of the loose fruit already fell out so I don't think I'm going to have a lot I only had a I only had a well really one that I didn't want to leave so but I I but but you're correct I believe we're ratcheting up the cost of living increase and some people probably aren't and that's going to that's going to continue the shaking for some other people and um but I would also say it's changed the environment in that there are some people that worked to me for years that were like they needed to move on they were at the end of the thing they were already kind of stressed out and this just put them over the edge and um so I did lose a few like that but to your other point I got to tell you I hired some great people and I I wish you know people like to pick on the Millennials you know what there's still some lovely wonderful hardworking well-adjusted Millennials out there plenty of them and uh I hired some of them so I know for a fact that's true is it harder now yes I I have to yes for sure it's harder now William what's changed about hiring um you know one of the things you used to hear constantly was um higher slow and Fire fast but is higher slow still a thing well I think higher thoroughly might be the way I'd say it right now because there is a little bit more time under the gun I mean it's like you know if you buy a home you ought to buy it carefully well I don't know how your Market is but here in Houston if you see a house you want you better put an offer in right then and and hope you don't get overbid that's what Paul down said to us about hiring people at at his shop he was asking them what they wanted and if if he likes someone and offering them more uh and trying to get them to sign before they left the room yeah I I don't know that I'd go as far as Paul but I'm not as smart as Paul I will say I I actually got through to one of my teenagers with a line the other day and uh it's an old line but but I thought wow if this gets through to a teenager it might actually be worth repeating and I I just said to this teenager uh hey if you don't have time to do it right you really don't have time to do it twice that makes sense do you think people by and large are adhering to that my my guess is they aren't no no I I think it's quite the opposite and I think it's it's going to mean guys that are running search firms are going to be busy again in two or three years when a lot of hires get fired or leave the number one mistake that I see in Staffing or or search whatever you want to call it is people hire too quickly and they fire too slowly you know we the nice way we say it is you should have long hell and short goodbyes the classic mistake when people are not under pressure is to hire quickly now they're under pressure they're reading a lot of headlines telling them you you better grab somebody good and hang on to them and pay them more and I think it's going to make people who were already prone to rush all the more rushed I think we're letting people off the hook too easily to say they're hiring too fast no they're hiring stupid and there's a difference like okay call the people back quicker call the references quicker move quicker I got all that but I still see people hiring without checking references and I'm sorry but I just have found that to be a disaster and yes I I would agree with someone 90% of the time it's a waste of time to call references they're just going to give okay fair enough maybe it's 80% but for the 20% that it makes a difference is the world like like it's going to take up so much of your time for that one bad hire that it's worth calling all the references so I don't even think it's about fast or slow I think it's about naivity and oh what am I about gonna bother call the reference well I don't think it's just naive T I think it's it's also what William said comparing it to the housing market people feel like they just have to move and I'm sure there's some people out there who are thinking you know what I I I I need people I'm just going to hire them and if it doesn't work out I'll figure it out quickly and I will fire fast don't you think people are doing that but Jay I totally agree with you let's call it the standard issue reference calls yeah they're worth nothing I mean you know they everybody lists their mother as a reference you know and never their mother-in-law no how about the companies they hire to do the reference checking that ask you nothing that like couldn't care less they just want to get the thing done you know you can thank lawyers and a litigious Society for that but but I I will say we're finding some new ways some new new things we're exploring with reference checks because you know you can only ask how long did they work here and what you can't ask about Behavior you can't there's so much off limit wait wait wait I got to challenge that I don't know that that's true what you just said what do you mean you can't ask you can ask the question is maybe they can't answer but you can ask correct true state byst state they're they're varying rules on what someone can say when they're asked a question that's exactly right what what I think I'm finding is you know you it's on you to do background to do criminal to do or hire somebody to do it we do it all the time for people when we're not doing a search we we'll do the background reference um but but when you do background reference uh you know we make we require credit check and some people don't like that but it's legal to ask for it and uh I think it shows how people manage their own house and if they can't manage that here's a new problem as of this morning my HR person literally this morning said Jay I'm going to have a problem if we hire it's taking me two weeks to get those those checks back like those those that's a problem yeah well and you're beholden to whatever the references will or won't do so I just tell the candidate I'm not going to be able to make an offer until I get these references so you might text them or give them a heads up that I need to have a phone call with them and and you know that that's the only way I know to push it along but then another thing that we're exploring is um if you don't run a social media check uh you should and you can run a really really thorough one uh and it's just it might show you some things that are helpful to your discernment and and I know a reference call is like you know the last firewall before you make the offer but you might see things that uh are worth noting I had one lady tell me when I had a store in New York a few years ago I did a popup and I knew it was critical I didn't make a mistakes I'm not there this guy got a a a a letter from his boss saying how wonderful he was I called her within 30 seconds she told me she had a fire him because he couldn't get along with anyone else 30 seconds she told me this let's go back to the social media thing uh I'm really intrigued by that Jay does your process include checking a candidate's social media absolutely absolutely there is some controversy about that William I've read some articles from uh quote unquote experts saying that it's not a good idea to do that because it's very likely that you will run into information that you're not supposed to have about a candidate how how do you think about that I hire a firm to do it for me wait Lauren walk us through that what would that what would that information be that we shouldn't know about William help me here the age what whatever your questions that you're not allowed to directly ask a candidate uh will likely turn up in social media we asked them to sign a release allowing us to do a social media scrub so they know it's coming and if you want to hide your birthday you can hide your birthday people put stuff online that you think to yourself oh my God God why would you go put that online but they do for us it's nearly all of our clients that we're hiring for we're hiring a very public facing person whether that's a CEO or a head of school or a head Pastor um and how they present themselves publicly in the social media sphere is pretty Salient to what whether or not we need to hire them even down to silly things like we have some clients where part of their behavioral C Covenant for employment is you're not going to like it's just a for whatever reason they've got a belief thing they whatever um well then why is your social media full of you knocking back cocktails at 10:00 a.m. and you can find that out we we can actually filter for is there alcohol in a picture that the person liked it's frightening and when you say the word scrub that even sounds aggressive to me I'm suggesting you don't have to scrub anything you put their name in and the whole thing comes right up there and like if they think it's okay to put all that stuff out there that was their choice like so we're supposed to ignore that it's out there that the person that just told you they don't drink has got pictures of 12 bars they're in I mean they put it on there well I I think it's I think it we're talking about two different things you're talking about go to their page and take a look I'm talking about a scrub where everything they've liked whether it's on LinkedIn Facebook Instagram I get about a 100 page report on and I don't even share the whole thing with our client cuz he wouldn't hire anybody okay that's news to me I okay that one makes me squirm a little bit but okay I I understand that's different than what I'm talking about I'm just talking about going out there to see what they put out there I think the the other thing with reference calls that I'm shifting I'm shifting when I do my own reference calls to two things Jay um you know I'm calling you about Lauren it's a reference call you and I both know reference calls Happ at the end of hiring I'm probably not calling you unless I'm going to hire him so rather than go through that is he a good guy or not why don't you tell me if you were in my chair how would you Steward the time I'm going to have working with Lauren what do I need to know to maximize that time and then you get some answers that are really good like well that's a great question now he's just going to get a lot done but you're going to have to tell him every now and then no means no like he'll keep asking over and over whether he can ask you something on the podcast you say no he keeps asking you say no well that's helpful to know going into the thing so um or another question that I'll ask I'll say Jay you know probably gonna hire him when you worked with Lauren how did his presence in the workplace affect your culture not just positive or negative like what changed oh everybody loves Lauren they love getting along with him people like being on projects with him well that's really helpful right or man he was productive and that his productivity allowed us to overlook the fact that he he he was a little awkward or he was you know and and I think you you can start to get at some things by approaching how do they affect it culture and if you were me and hiring him what would you want to know going in I ask one major question which is are they eligible for rehire and and I'm telling you I've learned that even though they've got lawyers all over them and they say don't say anything negative I've learned that people will not let those words come out of their mouth they can't they just can't say yes if they know if they wouldn't so I've never found somebody wait they can't say yes to what question are they eligible to re even if they've got a room of 12 lawyers screaming at them say yes they can't there might be a rule at the company I got the answer to that this is like playing chess they say no uh that's against our company policy so then I say what if it wasn't against your company policy and then you get the long silence like they are not going to lie for this person I have found they are not going to have the words come out of their mouth Yes that I would rehire them if they got if they left under some bad terms I have never met a human being that will allow those words to come out of their mouth so I find that very helpful that they're not going to lie for them and then they have a long silence and then I say wow sounds like you're struggling for an answer like I would if I fired somebody and I really didn't want to stick my neck out are personality tests still a thing or is that too much trouble at a time like this I used to use them they were very helpful I haven't used them in years why'd you stop if they were so helpful you know I'll tell you why 2008 happened the world fell apart and I wasn't hiring any anybody and I just save some money and I sto using them but should I use them is it a good idea I I think that some I would say this this I think I know for a fact some of them are great and some of them are worthless so I I think the ones that are great yeah they're probably worth doing but I just haven't done it because we seem to be doing okay without it and I do have a problem with this I'm a little uncomfortable making someone sit down and spend 40 minutes filling out a personality test and then you don't hire them and you're in that awkward position of was it the test what do you think of them William well I think that first of all you be be really careful um legally not to use or appear to use a personality profile as a litmus test for hiring uh some of them are fine others in some states it's like you can't do that it's and and the the legal rational it's like asking the person applying for a flight attendant job to step on the scale they can't change what they weigh it is who they are and you're discriminating so be careful first of all secondly I just wouldn't use them as a hiring mechanism I think it's super helpful for onboarding super helpful for team communication but some of the best hires I've made were not what I would have expected on the dis inventory or or what have you now we make everybody go through right now we just use disc CU it's quick and it's cheap and it's pretty thorough um and you're going to do that no matter where you are in the process so you know it's it's not a I got all the way down to the end they made me take this test and then they didn't hire me so so we're kind of covering ourselves there but I think they're far more helpful for onboarding and for team communication than they are for Discerning uh who to hire and let me just say with that hiring is a scary thing it's an anxious task and my experience 13 years of doing this and 2500 searches is people want a Smoking Gun to say yes should hire them no we shouldn't some test some inventory some that will make the decision for them so they get out of the anxiety of having to make basically a discernment call which is at the end of the day what hiring is about now you said something that I find funny you said that the government or state could say that oh that's discriminatory they can't change who they are what if they're a total jerk is that discriminating I don't know the personality profile that um asks if they're a jerk or not well but you can tell no I've had some they go from zero to you know 10 where do they fit on the scale of empathy and some people get ones I mean that's a problem and I I when I used to use them I learned watch out for the ones that Peg the needle either a 10 or one but but I agree with you there's probably some true discriminatory things in there based on you know all the things that are protected it certainly is going to tell you sometimes that this is not going to be a good employee I don't think you can call that discrimination I think that's what you call Discerning I don't want to hire someone that it's not going to be outgoing if they're a salesperson and those tests from when I took them years and years ago some of them I took they were amazingly on the money um so I but I also on the same page with you I'm not really comfortable using them at this stage though we've gotten much better at hiring I don't if I wasn't much better at hiring maybe I would tell someone maybe you should use those so it's It's Tricky though few weeks ago on the podcast Jay I think you were there the the topic of hiring rebound employees came up bringing people back and Jay I think you'd had a good experience with one wait I need to stop you the truck driver guy quit he wasn't making enough money I said you should have talked to us blah blah blah he comes back two weeks later he went to a crummy job we fixed the pay thing it was all good he just quit again um last week gave us one week notice how long was he back uh he was back since February and they offered him $3,000 signing bonus and this is a horrible company he went to and did the same thing all over again I go gee uh you couldn't give us more than two a week's notice it's holiday season well you know I they really wanted me there okay and um I had to this is fresh I had to think about this for the next two days so I thought what if he wanted to come back again and my new conclusion is bringing somebody back the first time I would call gracious and smart taking him back the second time you're probably a sap and you look bad to the rest of the employees and I believe if he shows up again and wants his job back I think I'm going to have to say know but you're not sure I'm not to totally sure it depends on whether it's tomorrow or whether it's in two months from now but I'm not happy that he only gave me one week's notice really I mean that was just not right and we always treated him well I gave him CB tickets every year to take his F it's it's kind of I'm not mad at them I'm certainly disappointed though what do you think about rebound employees William well Gail my exec assistant I just hired for the fifth time they say fifth times the charm I feel like like Johnny Carson or something you know like how many times have y'all been together five now you know but she she moved one time her husband's job took her away so she left and then we hired her again and then she had a baby and was going to be a mom fulltime and then we hired her again and then same thing with the second child and then we hired her again and then I laid her off when we cut back last year and all right that doesn't count she didn't quit she had good reasons to quit I fired her why would she come back I was I kind of wondered if she'd still like me take your call you wondered if she'd even take the call exactly I did a speech to some business owners about you know sometimes you have to fire people and blah blah blah and this guy comes up to me afterward and he goes you know I have to tell you I used to work for a big printing company and we bought a company in Chicago that had 150 employees and we did the math and we realized they got too many employees they should only have 120 they put me on a plane and said go to Chicago and you need to fire 30 people so I come to Chicago I don't know what to do so the first day everybody that was late I fired that day that was easy day one okay now it's day two he's just randomly firing people so he calls Moren in and says Moren I'm sorry but we're gonna have to lay you off she goes wow I'm surprised can I just ask you one favor he says what she says when you hire me back I want you to double my salary so he thinks yeah sure I mean he laughs to himself how arrogant is that so she leaves he's tired from firing people so he decides to go back into the production area he goes back to production and he says to the guy in charge he goes how many orders do we have uh going through this week and he says I don't know you're going to have to talk to Moren oh um I just fired Moren you fired Moren she's the only person here that knows where all the orders are he hired her back and doubled her salary it's a true story according to this guy so yeah uh people do come back well these are different times William you gave us one kind of exception situation in general do you think hiring rebounds is problematic a good idea I mean I think it I think it depends on why they left you know I've had people who left because their career progressed like our you know our Holly who you both know uh I hired her when she was what 23 or something and she stayed nine years did an amazing job as our chief marketing business development person um and and she outgrew us she's at a much bigger company now got a bigger job I'd kind of wonder why why do you want to come back you know I'm going to have to ask a question about that the trust her you know love her work love working alongside her but kind of Wonder you know always and uh I don't know have y'all seen pet cemetery I don't think so no oh wow okay well you can't bring them back all the time sometimes bringing it back doesn't work that's the bottom line there are other times where you know Gail each time there was a life circumstance and then it passed and I convinced her to come back to work and it's been wonderful I we've had other cases I won't name names but where the company outgrew their ability and you know they did a great job but we needed a higher capacity person and we help transition them out well and unless they're coming back to a different job that fits their capacity I I don't know even if I like working with them if it's uh if it's worth it what why did I bring Gil back again hey I love working with her I trust her she's my sister from another mister she's you know all that but she has been a part of our culture when it has been at its very best and has institutional knowledge and we've got a lot of new people after Co churn hit us and more than anything I said Gail I yeah I'm paying you to be my assistant but honestly if I need something done just to say William you deal with it I'm going to go work on culture out there and I'm going to Mentor some of these younger newer employees so um there there are times where bringing somebody back has enormous value not just in their work output but their cultural influence with the labor market so tight has that affected the way you manage people it's affected the way I'm paying people next year for sure and that's more it's it's a tight labor market and inflation I've done a couple retention bonuses early in the pandemic so so Lauren you're a key player here we're about to go through a really tough year and a half right or let's call it a year and you know we don't really do bonuses but uh I'm going to bonus you a year from now I'm going to give you an extra I don't know what give you $10,000 or whatever the number is right if I stay by the way it's it's a bonus you're going to get in a year but actually I'm just I'm going to go ahead and give it to you now okay now I want you to think about this before you say yes because I'm also going to have you sign a piece of paper that says I'm accepting this bonus in advance and if I leave the company for an unfireable offense between now and a year from now I'll pay this back with interest do people sign that I had one not and two did wait did you give this to everybody no how does that work well I probably shouldn't say it on a podcast if my whole office listens to it w I wasn't on the list that's what I'm thinking so I had a friend who used to say you need to keep a vomit list so he I what's a vomit list he said it's the it's a very short list it's probably no more than three people that if they walked in to your office and said can I have a minute at the end of the day and you know what that talk is that's right you would before you even let Them Sit down you're looking for a trash can because you're going to throw up yeah right and if you frame it that way I I'm yet to meet a a team leader who can't immediately name the two or three people and it's not always the two or three best paid people it's like I get a church that's going through a building campaign and for them their Finance director for the next eight months is a very important role that they don't want to have to train somebody new and and so It's that or for sometimes it's an admin person that we I mean like you can leave in a year but for right now through this tough season I got to have you around and I'll pay you a bonus in advance and of course you get you need to give them time to you know I give him a week you think about it if you don't want to sign it no harm no foul I get it life changes you might have something else going on but but uh it's yours if you want it all I can say is wow I I just don't know yeah wow well you know if those really are employees who are that crucial to you I would think if other employees found out about it that's a defensible situation oh my Godly Lauren you think the average person is GNA feel okay about that well this is what I said I assume that no meeting is actually private you know words going to leak out how are you not going to tell a friend or a coworker or whatever so I just said listen I I like you you're great for the team you do good work I like working with you but this bonus has more to do with protecting the company while we're in a very vulnerable season your role during this next year is super critical to the whole team and for the good of the team and everyone that works here I'm making this offer to you and and I don't even tell them if I do it with anybody else so you really can't be sure whether anyone else heard about it and they're pissed about it no you can't William what happened with the person who refused to sign did you give the bonus anyway no and they had a job offer within 3 months and left and they're in a great sit situation I it really stunk to lose them and they weren't our highest paid person but did you know that day that they were on their way out I think they probably knew yeah no did you know no but I did after they didn't sign it yeah that's what I bet and the flip side of that my I have a good friend who is a partner at one of the best management consulting firms there is and they do this with their compensation and uh you know if they don't sign then I know I better be preparing for the day that I do have that meeting and I need my trash can you know what I have to say I'm obviously not in the management consulting business I'm not in a high-tech business I have to say I'm proud and appreciative of the fact that I have had almost no one leave in 43 years the people that I would vom it they're still here and I feel good about that that's great my graphic designer left years ago she was great but there's no I was a little naive there's no way if you hire a great graphic designer that they she's not working at New York at a big magazine I I couldn't hold on to that but sure I feel great she sent me a note one time not long ago she said Jay you didn't realize it but you were running I can sit there in a room full of suits and and hold my own because of you and I've never been prouder of a comment to me that she said you didn't know it but you were running a woman's empowerment Zone there but other than her I can't think of anybody who left that it was like oh my God but I'm sure it will happen eventually well I think it changes for me season to season like there are times where you know close of the Year operations is as an es Corp when you got to zero everything out and figure out budget for the next year and pay like that's a that's a 90-day window that I'll boy I really need those people then January is usually a mad rush people our clients feel like it's January so we have new money a new budget whatever that means so they go higher and so sales people are incredibly important and they're always important all of my people are always important but there's there's zones of the calendar where different types of people are mission itical for a window of time and that sounds cold but I I think it's really trying to protect the rest of the team you know what I could see because I'm mostly a retailer I could see if your business was built on having outside salese I could see a situation where the rest of the employees would understand if you said listen it's a competitive market out that we need the sales to keep coming in and if they heard about it I could see where they would they would swallow hard but they already have to because they know the sales F will make more money than them anyway anyway it's always a problem but I always say to them well I could fire so and so but I'll have to fire you the next day because we'll have no business I mean it's it is a problem and I've had to live on both sides of the world of being a retailer my whole life and then understanding the Dynamics of running an outside sales organization which is 180 degrees different I mean you need the sales people to bring in business William here's something else that came up recently I wanted to ask you about we talked about the idea of giving uh employees a 360 review and Jay in particular was very uncomfortable cringing was the word I used I cringe yeah of asking employees you know what they thought of other employees um I'm curious what you think do you have a a strong feeling about 360s you know I turned 50 year before last and I had a whole new kind of physical that year and it reminded me of 360s yeah and was that enjoyable fortunately I don't remember remember much of it who wants know that someone's going around saying hey what do you think of William and like I just think it's it's certainly if there's a problem I deal with it absolutely but to go ahead and look for trouble and start quizzing people what do you think I just find that to be extremely uncomfortable and not productive as far as I'm concerned I tell you where I tell you where it has come in uh a lot more handy I I know they're necessary I know they're good they're just not much fun but in interviewing I am 100 100% fan of 360 interviewing absolutely or if there's a problem I'm all for it if there's a problem to go find out how bad's the problem and go talking other people I'm all for that but to just go do it for without any reason in particular William when you say they're not much fun are you talking about doing a 360 review of yourself yes receiving the results of your 360 well what about how do you view it in terms of your employees do you do 360 reviews of them we don't maybe we should um I think the closest we get to that is uh you know like best places to work or culture surveys we do them we administer them for clients all the time so we self- administer one each year and and invariably there'll be anonymous comments about this department that leader um but that's that's not the same thing you're asking that's where I have a problem I I don't believe in Anonymous anything I I believe I have a corporate cult like if they want to do it in honestly keep it I believe say something say something to your manager trust that they'll take care of it trust that you can have a conversation and I know by my no means do I think people should live in a bubble I have developed a culture here that I know works because people will tell me if they think I did something wrong they tell me right to my face and I appreciate it and I thank them so I don't think you need that I'll just say for myself I don't want to say to anyone else in my particular case I believe I'm running a healthy organization that if somebody's doing something that's not right someone's going to speak up about it and we will address it I do not see a value I could see it being counterproductive to go up but you've been surprised a few times absolutely that people said something sure absolutely but I they do say something yeah I mean most people are not going to come to the boss's office but I find that if you go down there and talk to them in their workstation or the truth chamber the car driving to a dinner together driving to anywhere they'll tell you stuff in the car they would have never in a million years told you in an office so I found there's ways of finding out stuff just go talk to people you know that whole management by wandering around I found that that works you go talk to people they'll tell you if you ask them if you think there's a problem William I can't let this go without asking did you learn anything interesting about yourself when you had that uh awful process of the 360 I have to go back in 5 years no come on he's blocked it out he's got PTSD from it and now you're bringing up all that stuff leave him alone I think it was uh an old Plato quote the greater part of instruction is being reminded of reminded of the things you already know so I think the older I get the more I'm like dang it am I still making that mistake um or or you know I'm going too fast or just the St the the the things that I've heard I'm not getting a lot of surprises put it that way as someone who's older than you I can tell you that I've accepted that I do some stuff that's wrong and I'm trying to improve it I'm always trying to improve it so I accept if somebody tells me something okay and I will I the part that changed my life is simply the revelation of I'm somewhat obsessive and I've had to I've come to the conclusion I'm just not going to be perfect I get it and I'm gonna try I'm gonna absolutely continue to try but I have accepted that I'm gonna screw some stuff up and it's okay because if you don't do that you will torture yourself and it's not healthy J that reminds me you told me you told us at the beginning of this year that your goal for this year was not to do anything stupid how'd you do wow you know what I'm happy to say I feel really good about i' I've had some very difficult management stuff I've had to work through and I think we've done a very good job with it um I would say um I've done well with that I I've um I think I've learned from the past and um I think I've done very well with that now do you want me to give you my wife's number and call her up and see if I've got it I was gonna say Jay you know my morning prayer U it's not original but uh was Lord thank you so much that I've just had a good day and I've not I've treated people well and I've been honoring and I've been productive thank you so much for this day that has just gone without flaw but I'm about to get out of bed yeah no I don't want to brag but I think I've I've made every single mistake you can possibly make in business and um I've learned from it and uh so yeah I I think I'm I still got a few weeks to screw up now you put some pressure on me but so far uh I think I've done well this year all right um we're almost out of time and this is the last one we're going to take this year so I want to ask you both uh the same question I asked you both last year just as a way to kind of gauge what your mindset is if somebody were to come along right now and offer you twice what you think your business is worth would you be tempted to sell William um well everybody thinks their business is worth more than it is so it it'd be a big number I don't know I I think I'd have to drop back and say but then what would I do because I you know can only play so much golf I'm doing something now I I try and advise candidates I say here's the thing and I tell my kids this to if you can find something that you're good at right that's needed that leaves the world better than you found it and that you enjoy doing there's your perfect job you get all four of those to overlap there very few jobs to do that hopefully I've got a fair amount of time left in a career I I don't know what that job would be because right now I'm doing something that I've had some modum of of uh Good Fortune with uh it is desperately needed to our clients I do think it's leaving the world better than I found it and I enjoy it so I it's hard for me to imagine what I'd do with my time if I felt like this is a once in a-lifetime shot I can secure the future of my grandchildren and then I can figure out some nonprofit to go you know there's always room to think but it would have it would have to be a pretty special offer so you you didn't quite say no that's right all right let me help I'm gonna say no because I've realized that I have I never thought there was a phrase like this but I have enough money and that if I got all this money I don't know what I would do with it and I would not be happy watching them destroy the company because I'm confident they would and I feel like I owe it to my 130 employees to not do that so I believe I would think about it for 10 seconds but no I don't believe I would do it because I like going to work every day I like my employees and I feel good about what I'm doing and I'm happy that I'm in a situation that I could afford to turn that down all right my thanks to Jay GS and William and bluman uh for this conversation and for many conversations this year as always really appreciate it thanks for sharing guys wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that's Len at21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you you really think you can take it and if you got something out of this conversation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcasts follow us on Twitter subscribe to the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by Jess Theron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone