Those Who Can, Do. Those Who Can’t, Uh, Coach?

[Music] Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. This week, David C. Barnett, Jay Goultz, and Lena Maguire talk about their experiences hiring consultants, adviserss, and especially coaches. There are, of course, lots of great business coaches out there, but as the owners explain, it's easy to be led astray by coaches who don't really know your industry or who address your specific challenges with their cookie cutter solutions. And here's a question. Does it matter whether the coaches were successful in their own entrepreneurial endeavors? I've seen some of these people in the picture framing industry, Jay tells us. These people that were coaching and were giving advice to people, and every last one of them failed in their own business. But when coaching works, it can be transformative, says Lena, who is absolutely thrilled with the coach she hired. So, how do you tell the difference between a coach who can actually help and one who just talks a good game? Plus, Jay explains why he's thinking about opening a pizza shop. Seriously. Well, sort of seriously. Even in good times, owning and running a business can be a lonely pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges. In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hats community, engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insights only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning more, you can sign up for a free trial of the Morning Report newsletter, which highlights the most important news of the day for business owners and shows how other owners are coping with challenges and finding opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. You might also try our monthly Zoom mastermind where owners from around the country gather to compare notes. It's a lot like this podcast except you get to be part of the conversation. Shoot me an email at lauren21s.com to be my guest and to get more information. Joining me this week on the podcast are regulars David C. Barnett who is based in New Brunswick, Canada and helps people buy and sell businesses. Jay Gold, CEO of the Golds Group, whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business, Artist Frame Service, and a home furnishing store, Jason Holm, and Lena Maguire, CEO of Spoka Kitchen and Bath, which is based near Syracuse, New York, and designs and manages home remodeling projects, especially for those looking to age in place. The episode is titled Those Who Can Do, Those Who Can't Uh Coach. [Music] Welcome, David, Jay, and Lena. It's great to have you here. I want to talk about business coaches today. It's gotten kind of trendy to hire them, although I sort of wonder what's going to happen with AI coming. Maybe we'll talk about that a little bit. But I'm eager to hear about your own experiences. Lena, why did you decide to hire a business coach? >> Uh because I was at a plateau and at my age, I don't have a lot of time. I had a little bit more money, so I wanted to take the faster approach. So, I started researching uh who was going to be best able to help me and get me where I wanted to be. >> How did you do that? How'd you do the research? >> Well, I started by asking friends um and doing a little bit of research about what types of coaches are available. And then I asked friends for recommendations. And then I interviewed coaches. Um, and then I sat back and did some analyzing to see what it was I really wanted, how involved I wanted to be. And I found three people that I was interested in, and I interviewed with them at length, about an hour each, and I made my determination. >> When you were asking about what kinds of coaches there are, what what did you find? >> Uh, there are coaches that can um help you with specific things. There are coaches who specialize in groups or individual. Um, they can do one-on- ons. What I was looking for was somebody to give me the accountability I need because I know myself if I don't have homework and followup and accountability, I will not get best value from it. So, I was looking for somebody who could help me on a weekly, monthly, annual, quarterly basis. So, I had constant communication. So, the coach I ended up picking, we had weekly Q&A sessions with a small group. We had um monthly motivators that were basically group sessions where we were doing exercises for 2 hours each session once a month. We had uh calls that were small groups, just two people. Then we had quarterly where I had the one-on-one coaching with um with the actual coach. And I had a mindset coach that was also a one-on-one monthly one-hour call. And then we had um group workshops that were once a month for two days, 2 days a month for 4 hours each time. And then we had annual workshops. So I had a lot of a lot of interaction with other people and it was a focus thing about growing my business. And then the mindset issue um was really relevant in my coaching sessions. So, I didn't realize how much I needed that mindset shift and that was like the bonus from actually doing the coaching. >> What do you mean by that? What was the mindset shift? >> Like working on your business instead of in your business and realizing the value of your time. Um, not to do those $10 and $20 an hour jobs and even the $50 an hour jobs because my job is to move the business forward. It's to have the vision and to set the goals for the business and those are things that only I can do. Um, and then to do the things that I'm good at, that I enjoy, like working, doing the one-on-one consultations with the clients, getting the sales set, things like that. So, it was letting go of those things that can be delegated to other people that they would do better than me at a lower cost. >> So, what is the background of these people that make I'm just fascinated by the whole thing. Like, where do these people come from and what qualifies them to be giving advice to other people? I just wonder if they're so entrepreneurial, why are they doing coaching? >> There are people who have coaching experience. Uh they they get certified as coaches. A lot of them come in from the life point. So I know my mindset coach uh was a certified coach and the person who was doing the business coaching for me had actually uh been in the business and recently maybe 10 15 years has been coaching but before that was doing what I do for 40 years. So, you know, she had relevant experience doing that, but also had the uh the coaching experience. It basically comes down to the coaches who do this are the ones who really want to give back to the community. They want to see other people be successful. So, they just naturally gravitate towards it as they start getting out of their business and their businesses are being run really well. They have the extra time and they want to help people. And that's basically the kinds of people I were talking to. I see a lot of ads online that say that coaching is a great way to have a highinccome business that doesn't require a lot of time or or employees, you know. So, I I think there's different groups of people being drawn into the whole coaching world. >> I agree. Yeah. I'm just speaking from the types of coaches I was looking for that that's where it was because it was more experience based. But yeah, there are a lot of coaches that are doing it because you can work from home, you can have a remote team, and depending on how specialized you are in your program, you can charge a lot. My program was not inexpensive. I I interviewed with coaches who charged anywhere from $3,000 for a year to $45,000 a year. >> Wow. >> Can you tell us where you end up? >> Went in for 3 months um at a monthly rate and then if you decided within 90 days you got a discount and um so my $25,000 fee came down to around 23,000. >> And were you happy with what you got out of it? >> Absolutely thrilled. I feel it accelerated me uh to where I wanted to be. For me, I wanted to get my systems and processes together. I wanted to be able to get to the point where I could sell my business in five or 10 years or have a general manager take over. So, I didn't have a lot of systems and processes. I had my own way of doing things, but nothing was documented. My foundations were a little bit shaky, so I wanted to firm those up a little bit. So, all of that has happened. Um, and I also have wonderful people now that I'm out of the coaching program. I still stay in touch with about seven or eight of the women that I was in there with and actually I have a a informal Zoom meeting that I work with these uh five women every Tuesday for an hour. So we we do a best practices and we still are helping each other. So it's more of a a round table now rather than a coaching group because I didn't want to spend another $23,000. >> I was just chuckling. I I I I totally appreciate that Lena's last comment there about about the cost. You know, I've I've uh done some different coaching programs to try and get some of the benefits that that Lena was talking about there. And and I I run a business which also provides a coaching program to some of our own clients too. And so I've I've um my experience has been a little bit different um from from what Lena has had. I was really happy to hear she got positive results. the coaches that I hired um I I found were very formulaic and I found that they didn't really take the time to understand my business and when they started to give me feedback they were giving feedback that if I had followed it I know would have actually probably been at odds with you know a course of action that would have helped me. So, I went I went through a few of them and I've also had some long chats with people that are in the coaching business when I was creating my own coaching program that I host for other people just to try to figure out what may have been wrong with some of the people that I had met with what what I needed to make sure I had in order before I started to to do this with other people. >> How did you go about finding someone? What was your process? >> I went did a little bit of networking. Um, I did some just some open Google searching, looking for different people. I would find some different people online and dig into some of the content that they had created. You know, listening to some maybe podcast interviews they had done um to try to get a feel for the person, their background, um, what their experience had been. Um, you know, Lena just mentioned that uh, one of the people that she uh, had hired as a coach had a background in doing the thing that Lena does. And and I think that's key. you know, someone who's got applicable direct experience with a specific industry uh and type of business that you're trying to do so that they can have an appreciation of what you're going through and maybe understand uh the path that might be ahead of you. uh you know to to echo um Jay's question earlier um you know to me if somebody trains as like a life coach for example I really question when those people try to get into business coaching because I wonder where the background or understanding is going to come from >> you said something in the beginning you said they didn't take the time to understand the business I don't think it's about time they don't have the ability to do it which is what you just finished up with basically like the fact is there are some instinctual things about business and entrepreneurship ship that you you just have to have. And I just don't think this is the same as coaching golf for or whatever. So, I'm sure there's some great ones that work out well and I'm also sure there are some who are not great ones who failed at their own I I've I've seen some of these people in the picture framing industry. These people that were coaching and were giving advice to people, every last one of them failed in their own business. Yeah, I'd be I'd be suspicious of somebody who didn't have a very successful business. And I do agree with Dave with the podcast. That was something that I did too. Anybody who I was interested in, I listened to multiple podcasts that they had because that would give you an idea of their personality and their coaching style and the ones that I gravitated to were the ones that were answering questions that people were submitting based on what they were looking for as advice. So that was very helpful to do that Google search and and get those people and find their podcast, listen to them, read about their blogs. >> That probably is the critical piece to this that you couldn't do 20 years ago. That I could see where if you listen to enough of the podcast and get it, I could see where you could really get a good feel for whether they're the right one. But without that, I don't even know how I mean I think it would be very difficult to sit down with somebody for an hour and really get a feel for. So that that makes sense that that was what you did and it worked. >> Yeah. And I can and I can tell you that um now even though I'm done with the coaching program, I've been out of the program for a little over a year now. I still listen to her weekly podcast. I still get excellent value from that. >> Lena, was it hard for you to find someone who was familiar with your industry or um did you consider other people? >> Yes. Um because I do kitchen and bath design uh and I do work with a lot of contractors. So, it's design build is basically what I'm involved in. Most of the coaching is in the interior design world and interior design. Uh people will do mood boards and put do space planning and furniture purchasing and things like that, which I can do, but that's nowhere near the focus of my business. My my business is on the nuts and bolts of creating a a kitchen and our bath from right down to the studs and then building it back up. So, you know, interior designers who are coaching, they're not talking about loadbearing walls and putting in a laminate beam and working with an engineer and an architect. So, finding somebody who had that construction experience as well as the interior design business. Um, I did not find somebody who was a kitchen and bath designer, but somebody who was an interior designer who did construction work. It took me a long time to find somebody, but it was well worth the effort of finding somebody. Dave, we've talked in past podcasts about how it can be hard for business owners to find someone who does what you do, helping business owners buy or sell businesses, uh, with a real knowledge of the the small business end of the market. I guess it's not surprising that it would be also hard for someone like you to find a coach who's familiar with that. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I I was open to any kind of coach that had any kind of uh small business consulting experience, you know, anyone who was selling to other business owners, uh any kind of uh consulting or or or things of that nature. And and that's what I went looking for. some of the ahas I think I arrived at through the my own experience with coaching that helped me with the program I run for for people that want to buy a business is I I think that if someone's going to get a coach, they have to have some kind of framework for the journey they're going to go on. So there there has to be some kind of plan like this is where you start, this is where you finish, this is the goal, this is what we're going toward. Um or if it's just going to be this this general kind of I'm coaching you to greater levels of success. I think that there has to be that depth of uh industry experience. We have people that go through our coaching program that want to buy a business and when they buy a business, they say, "Wow, I really liked working with you. Can you stay on as my business coach and if you know, for example, if they buy a janitorial business or something, I'll say, you know, like I'm not the guy. I mean, I I can help you through this process of doing the transaction, but you really want to find the person who retired after 30 years of running a janitorial business." like they're they're going to have the tips and the tricks and the insights and and the background to know what you're going through and what the next thing looks like and you know what to do when you have uh you know that one big client that you rely upon who suddenly starts to take longer and longer to pay and how you navigate that situation right and and so it's tough and when I hear you know Lena talk about the amount of money she invested in her coaching program one of the things that I look out for is what are the terms of payment I mean, is is somebody got enough confidence in their coaching program that they're going to let you pay monthly or quarterly so you can get a taste as you move forward and can bail if you're not getting value? Or is there, you know, a big incentive for a big upfront payment, right? As with all things in life, you know, once once you've made the payment and and you've sent over the money, you kind of lose part of the leverage in the in the commercial relationship as a customer. >> Yeah, that's very important. So yeah, that was a consideration for me too. Uh I was on the monthly payment plan and that was very affordable to do it that way. But after three months I saw the value so I jumped on the cost savings. >> Or if it isn't leverage, it's simply a case of being able to just cut your losses and figure out after yeah this isn't the right person. I mean I I'd have a hard time paying someone all upfront like this isn't like building a house or something. I mean, you might have the wrong person, and why shouldn't you be able to leave after 3 months if you realize it's the wrong thing? And why should they be guaranteed income for the next 6 months if they turn out to be the wrong person? So, I I would definitely coach people to not go paying up front unless there's some compelling I can't imagine a compelling reason that I would want to do that. >> Jay, you you you do sound a little skeptical. I'm I'm curious. You've spoken here often about how you never had a mentor and you know when you were getting started it was much harder to find the kind of advice and help that's much more available today. Do you think you could have used a business coach earlier? >> There's no question I could have used especially in the beginning my business grew so fast. I doubled in size for the first three years. I was completely out of control. I was in my 20s. the business was just growing like crazy. I could have absolutely used someone. And the part that's so frustrating in hindsight is I have an accounting degree, but I never went into accounting and I really didn't like it. But here's somebody who's growing super fast. And unfortunately, I think most entrepreneurs think, "Oh, well, I've got a good accounting firm. They'll take care of that." No, they won't. They probably are doing your taxes. I look back at some of the fundamental mistakes I made in the beginning and it just blows my mind. I went to a decentsized accounting firm between them and the banks. Not one of them said to me, "Hey, you're growing too fast. Raise prices 5%. You don't have a big enough. >> We'll do another podcast on accountants. I don't want to go too deep." >> No, I know. I'm just saying these are the people that were available to me back in the day. I didn't have anyone else to talk to. There was no such thing as business coaching 30 years ago. Could you imagine hiring one today >> at my stage at this regard? Um, probably not because I frankly think I built a company from zero to 120 people. I I don't really think there's many coaches out there that know anything more than I do. I don't. I'm sure there are some. >> What about for aspects of the business? I mean, you you can't be expert in everything you do. Um, you know, maybe for help with technology stuff or something like that. >> For sure. For sure. Hang on. I think you're you're you're crossing the line here between coaching and consulting, right? So, so if if Jay needs a new inventory management system, yeah, sure, there there's probably an expert out there who can come in and set it all up and train the staff and and then they're done, right? And that's consulting. And there's there's a there's a difference here. And I I think some people blur the line a little bit whether intentionally or not. >> I was going to bring that up. That's a great point. >> No, no, you're right. Absolutely. I fully agree with that. Let me try to articulate the difference and you'll tell me if I get it right. I think the difference is that a consultant just as you suggested tends to be more projectoriented, maybe more strategic oriented, uh looking to find a solution to some specific issue. Uh whereas a coach is more about developing skills and goals and helping people just improve the way they do things in general. Does that sound right? >> Or how to operate as the boss. Just if if I was a business coach, the first thing I would explain to people, you're the boss. Let me explain to you what that means because I didn't know what that means. When you're the boss, you're in a whole different category of human species. And um don't take things personally when someone quits and gives you no notice. You know, oh, how could they do that to me? Cuz they don't care. So, yeah, there is a difference between coaching and consultant. That's for sure. >> There's a big difference. I have an adviser from SCORE. An adviser gives you advice. that's relevant to you. They understand what your business is, how you your personality plays into it. Consulting, I will hire a consultant. Like when I brought on QuickBooks online, I hired an accounting consultant, a bookkeeper kind of person. Pay them $125 an hour. We worked for two or three hours. We got done what needed to be done. They did the work for me. That's a consultant. And then coaching is helping me so that I can do the work so that I can make my business better. So I use all three. >> I'm I'm realizing that you've sought the input of a lot of people in the process of building your business. You know, a coach you just told us about consultant. Uh you have an accelerator in Tennessee that you that you work with. >> Maybe there are others. You're you're part of a Zoom group. >> Yeah. >> Um are you at all concerned that you might have >> too much information? Are you getting conflicting advice from the various sources? >> No. Uh because I uh I'm a oneperson business with 1099 uh virtual assistant, I don't have the support group for what I need. So I'm building my own support group and I wanted to get my business together properly. So when I'm doing things, so when I talk about consultants, I'm basically talking about my bail team, my banker, my insurance agent, my accountant, my lawyer. So, those are like the four big people that I would get um consulting from. But the coaching, that's like the well-rounded thing and I can ask questions that are very pertinent to me right now. >> I want to bring up an important aspect of all those people you just mentioned. I've gotten bad advice from all of them >> and that's why I have these different venues because I can get advice from, you know, I'll go to the accountant first and and talk to them and then I'm thinking in my mind that doesn't sound right to me. So then I go to my business group and I have conversations with the other people who are entrepreneurs and we hash it out. So that's why I have my Tennessee group, the brain trust. This is a group of seven other women. It's a round table and we go through our challenges and I can say, you know, I have this advice and I'm not sure this is really the right way to go and they'll say, "Oh no, I've gone this way." Or somebody else will say something else. So I'm getting that balance I need to make good decisions on my own. >> No, most of these professionals are riskadverse. That's why they do what they do for a living. They get a paycheck every Friday if they're risk >> adverse. >> Jay, do you have good buddies in the framing or furniture business that you sometimes talk to who are in the same business, but they're not maybe they're not competitive because they're not in town? >> Yes, absolutely. I have two of them I'm tight with. One's in Florida, one's in Arizona, and I talk to them regularly. >> Yeah, I I do the same thing. I've I've probably got uh three or four good business friends and uh and we talk to each other and we bounce things off each other. And uh a couple of them actually were in a mastermind group with me at one time. I can't say enough good things about mastermind groups, you know, where you can go and and and have these kinds of conversations with other people. And uh I I was asked the other day, if you don't have a coach, how do you fill that gap? How do you, you know, sort of test your ideas or things like that? And uh my answer was that they're my business friends that uh that are also running businesses that uh will either give me feedback or give them give their opinion or tell me that they don't think they have a qualified opinion which I think is one of the most beautiful data points you can get from anybody >> or I tried that and it didn't work. Here's why. Oh, I didn't think of that. No, and I'll tell you trade shows phenomenal. The fact of the matter is I'll just use picture framing because that's what I'm most familiar with. probably only 20% of people that own picture frame shops go to the National Trade Show, which to me says it all. I I I don't know how you can be in a business if you're really into it and want to grow it and not go to a national trade show. And then when you go to the national trade show, instead of sitting next to a guy who's your competitor from six blocks away, there's somebody in a completely different state to your point that you have no competition with that you can have a very deep, honest, revealing, insightful conversation with. And trade shows were one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century. As far as I'm concerned, >> they're absolutely necessary. >> Dave, when you went looking for a coach, what problem were you hoping to solve? >> Um, I I was I was looking actually to fill the gap uh in my mind space from the end of that mastermind group that I alluded to earlier. So, I was in a mastermind group for a decade and what started to happen is people in the group started to sell their businesses and I was one of the more junior people in there. And so as they started to sell their businesses, the type of conversations and people's sort of uh you know vigor and enthusiasm etc. all kind of changed from let's roll up our sleeves and do this and get to work etc to a more relaxed kind of attitude atmosphere going towards their retirement. And so I I I said you know what I I can't keep spending time here because I'm not getting out of it what I used to. And so I left that group and I went looking for some way to replace that missing thing and that that's why I started to look for a coach and I I was open to other kinds of mastermind groups and things too. So I kind of went shopping along the whole gamut of coaching peer help sort of uh stuff um you know that lean has been successful at buying or or signing up for or finding. And I think you said that you realized that the people you were seeking coaching from really didn't know your industry. How long did it take you to figure that out and break the uh the relationship? >> Well, in some cases it was one conversation. In other cases, I I did sign on with a guy and I was with him for about six months and um you know, he he would he would give me advice and then I would say, "But but that doesn't fit within the marketing funnel framework that I have established that we talked about two meetings ago." And so so it was just it became clear that that he was um had this a bag of tricks that he was pulling stuff out of and he wasn't really putting his head space into into my business or what I needed and and things like that and and I I realized, hey, you know, I'm not getting from this what I thought I was going to get it and I should probably just back out. >> That's very common when I was looking for for a coach. Um they were like you said before, it was very formulaic. They have a plan. this is how they do it and they're teaching you their way rather than coaching you to figure out how to do it. It's like teaching a man to fish instead of feeding them. And if you find the coach that can listen and say, "Oh, this is what your challenge is. Have you tried this or that or this way and this is the experience I've had and I can tell you that this always works. I and I can tell you that this never works." Um, then let's figure out what's going to work for you. And those people who have that formula where they're going to teach you like, "I'm very successful. I can do this and that. Let me show you the way. It's their way, not what works for you. And I think that's the key that um helped me find a good coach because once I found that person who was going to speak to me on that individual level and help me on my path rather than teaching me her path, that makes all the difference. And I think that's what Dave is trying to find was somebody who could fill that gap. >> I've also learned somebody actually admitted this to me an accounting firm. Some of them don't want to give you the brutal truth. Why? They don't want to lose the account >> and one one admitted it to me. I I want the kind of accountants to go, Jay, you're being an idiot. Stop doing this. Do it this way. That's what I want. They would not tell that to someone because they don't want to lose the ongoing stream of doing the tax work. >> Well, and and the other thing about some advisers like accountants, and there are some great accountants out there, um but their sales processes are often a skew. So you can have an accountant who does accounting, tax returns, tax, you know, financial statement preparation, etc. And they also do advisory and consulting, but they have that in their name, they have that on their advertisements, etc. But I I've asked one of these guys, "What percentage of your clientele is subscribed to your advisory services?" And like he he looked at me with a blank stare. I'm like, "Well, you sell the tax return preparation, you sell the financial statement work. Who do you sell advisory services to? What are you promising them? what what's the deliverable etc. And and so I think there's a lot of people who maybe go to that accountant. They have not purchased advisory services. The accountant has not tried to sell them advisory services, but the person believes they're getting some kind of advice. >> Dave, did your experience trying to find a coach that would work for you uh inform your coaching services that you offer? Do you think you learned things that have helped you? Yeah, because because what we do is we coach people through the process of buying a business. And so we've got it kind of broken down into steps and we have all the things that we are sure to teach people and then we guide people as they go on that journey. And so we are able to then show that kind of plan to people and we say this is the plan we were going to coach you along. If you would like to go on this journey, then this is where we'll we can do that. And so so people know very clearly what they're going to be getting into. Um, and then they're doing it, uh, we do it in a group. So, uh, there's two there's a couple of tiers. Uh, one is just the group activities, the other tier is the group activities plus a monthly one-on-one with me. And, uh, about half the people choose the the one that includes the private meetings with me and the other half stay in the group activities. But, um, they're all on that journey. They're all following that kind of pathway and then they get to see each other on their deals. So people in the group sessions are talking about their conversations with bankers, with sellers, with brokers, etc. They're sharing the things they've are learning in due diligence. They're warning each other about this weird thing that they came across and how it's affecting the deal. And it not only is it me giving input in those meetings uh as they're asking questions and things, but we've got many members in the group who've already done it now who are still there wanting to share with the other more junior people. And so you get this real synergy that adds to the value of being there. Um I thought when we started the group that people would sign on, follow the group, follow the methodology, buy a business, and then leave. And you know, the majority of people who buy a business do that. They leave. But I was surprised by how many people are sticking around. And for a lot of them, it's because they say, "Well, I intend to do it again and I want to learn and I want to see what's happening in these other deals cuz I it's it's like a muscle they're working on. They're getting better and better at this whole deal making thing." And so I I I think what has been helpful for me in learning through my experience was that like I said earlier, there needs to be some kind of framework or map or journey so you know what to expect, what you're going to go through and and there has to be some kind of definitive outcome. I think to just have a coaching relationship where you're saying, "I want to be better at business," I don't think is as powerful as I need a coach to help me grow revenue by 50% and increase my gross margin by by 20% or something like that. >> The beauty of what you do is I can't imagine that that someone who's going to buy a business for the first time could possibly have the background and experience to do this without that. I mean, how how would they have that? And and then on top of that, many of the people that are selling the business also never sold a business. So yeah, I'm not even saying they're trying to cheat anybody. They didn't even know themsel that wait a second, the problem's going to be after they buy it. This owner had an extremely high expertise in this particular thing that you don't have and that's going to that's going to kill you. So I could see where that would be extremely valuable to anybody who's going to buy a business. So um good for you, good for them. And it sounds like your coaching program is doing really well. If people are sticking around, there's obviously a value. And I love the idea that when you put it all together, you're like, what are the deliverables? Because that's something that I looked for when I was looking for a coach. Like, I want this. What are you going to give me? And then that allows me to make a decision as, is this program going to be good for me based on what I need and, you know, how much I'm going to pay. Am I going to get what I want? Uh, and it sounds like you did exactly that. And I'd like to ask you, are you doing podcasts also because I know that was something we just talked about how valuable that was when you're evaluating a coach. >> Yeah. Yeah. My my YouTube channel just celebrated its 11th anniversary and and uh and I do u videos by myself where I answer people's questions, but I also have guests on the show too where we have conversations about either deal making or small business operations. So, um, there's people who hear me, read one of my books, find out about me. If they want to go do a deep dive and find out more about me, there like they can they can dive really deep. There's all kinds of stuff out there. I >> I went to a a seminar that the bank put on that was very interesting about selling your business and the multiples and stuff. So there were like five people on the on the deis there and they're talking about how many deals they did last year and it wasn't that many deals and I was a little surprised and I said to him I said in city of Chicago there had been thousands and thousands of deals but you're only doing x amount of them and I said so what was the multiples so they said well most of these deals were in the I forgot 70 to hundred million range I go wow I go I assume these weren't the founders then they were second or third generation and the guy looks and he goes no I'm thinking about it in my head most Most of them were not. They weren't the second or third. I go, "How could that be? How could there aren't that many people that could build a company, but he he finally gave me the insight. He said, "Here's the key. Most of these people were buying businesses along the way. That's how they got it so big." >> Well, you know, now that you've said that, I I've got to tell you that 50% of the people in this group coaching program I run are already business owners. >> So So they they are they are business owners and they're in the group because they want to grow through acquisition. So it's exactly the the road map that you're you're talking about. Yeah. >> So, let me ask you guys this. How is this all going to change as we enter the uh the age of AI? I talked to more and more business owners who are using chat GPT or another uh chatbot is something of an alter ego running pretty much every big decision they make. you know, from hiring people, entering resumeumés, reviewing uh asking for a ranking of the candidates to deciding who gets promoted to making decisions about expansion, whether it's geographic or adding products. Uh people are having all these kinds of conversations with AI. Are they still going to hire coaches? Well, I've started doing it, Lauren, and it all comes down to the context and the and the information that you feed into it and how you set up the prompt, right? And so, one of the things that we've noticed or we see as an opportunity is to couple the desire to use AI with some of our products. So, this is this is what I'm working on right now is some of the programs that we have in the education courses and the the group coaching program. We're looking at how we can use the base of content that we have developed and then create AI tools for our clients to use. So, we're we're trying to do that for them and and I am playing with it myself to get ideas and stuff like that. >> Are you at all concerned that people will stop looking to you as a as a coach if they can just turn to Chat GPT? >> Uh, no. Because if you just ask chat GPT questions about buying a business, you get really bad advice because chat chat chat GPT is is programmed by reading the internet. And I don't know if you know, but some of the quality of information on the internet is not the best. >> What? >> Shocking. Absolutely shocking. >> Yeah, I'm still working on regular intelligence, not the artificial stuff. So, as soon as I get the regular intelligence figured out, then we'll move on to artificial. I see AI um coming up in a lot of the conversations that I'm having with the different people and the different groups I'm in and it is starting to become a very dominant conversation. Um I see more of the future being in the consulting so that you can use AI for very specific things. Help me get this set up. Show me how to use this. As far as coaching, um I think u like Dave said, incorporating the AI tools into his coaching, yes. But replacing coaching with AI, I don't see that happening. And I I can see the importance of the mastermind groups and the roundts because now you're like, okay, I'm trying this kind of AI. What kind of results have you had? And just the sheer volume of information out there, you know, which AI engine do you want to use? Um and how do you want to use them? I'm just have a running list of all these different AI agents and search things that we can use and it's overwhelming. So having six or seven other people that can come in and say, "Hey, I did this and I used this. This is how I did it. You might want to try it." >> Dave, you you told us that you're you're trying to incorporate AI into some of what you offer. Have you started using it to answer questions that you have running your business? Uh yeah, I' I've created a few different personas and um I'm feeding information into it and and programming it to interview me and then come up with, you know, sort of lists of strategies or ideas to a a solution or to a problem that I I pose to it. And I find it interesting um a lot of the stuff that it gives me back uh will be not useful. like there would be things I would never do or I I just know from reading it that yeah that would never play out. But I I find it very useful because it's acting kind of like a a bit of a muse because you can have a bunch of silly responses to a question, but there could be inside of that the a little nugget or grain that plants the seed of uh what is a good idea, right? And so I I I find it interesting to brainstorm with and I've recently started to play around with brainstorming it with it in voice mode while I'm driving almost like I'm talking to someone on the phone or something. And I and I find that the experience for me is a little bit different verbally than it is in front of the screen too. I don't know if other people have tried that. >> I haven't and that sounds interesting. I do want to try that. Now, >> Jay, there's at least one business we know that AI is probably not going to destroy, and that's the pizza business. And I know from a recent conversation with you that of all things, you're actually thinking of getting involved in the pizza business. Can you tell us about that? >> My real estate taxes have gone up dramatically on my storefronts and volumes not what it was. And I've decided I need to make the space. I need to condense, take my gallery, put it in with the frame business, and which will free up some space. And I'm thinking, gee, what can I put in this new space to bring in some new revenue? And all I know is people like pizza. So, I'm thinking, there was an old pizza place in Chicago that closed years ago that was the greatest pizza ever. And I I know the owner. And I'm thinking maybe I should put a pizza place in there. Or maybe not. Cuz probably when I look into it more, I'll realize that's another one of my things that I thought about that didn't do. So, >> like the firehouse you bought. like well I bought a firehouse yeah 10 years ago which right on the right on the Kenny Expressway and I fixed it up and I had a great time with it and I was looking at different businesses and then I realized yeah I don't need any more businesses so I sold it at a small profit but I have to say I had a good time with it. I don't regret it at all. So this might be another firehouse thing but I like pizza. If you're in Chicago everybody needs to think about opening a pizza place. You seldom see them go broke. >> Well you can't go wrong with having food. >> That's what I'm thinking. Well, except that restaurants aren't known for having >> It's not really a restaurant. It's pickup. You know, it's a pizza place. Just they pull up, throw it in the car, drive away. It's not exactly a restaurant thing. And I probably won't do it cuz I'm still a recovering entrepreneurial holic. So, you caught me the moment that I took another drink from the entrepreneur hose, but I I probably don't need another business. So, maybe I should just rent to somebody that's got a pizza place. But then one of my people said, "Jay, the whole building will smell like pizza. It's going to be a problem." And yeah, so I wouldn't bet on me doing it, but it is a fleeting thought and I do like thinking about those things. So that's my hobby. >> Well, Jay, you probably don't want to have a a fire opportunity next door with a pizza oven. And you know, if you had a business that didn't have an oven there, you have less chance of the building burning down. >> Yeah, there you go. So, there's another reason not to do it. I'm sure there's 20 more that I'll reveal as I look into this. Jay, if if the pizzeras are really as numerous in Chicago as you say, I would tell you before you build your own pizzeria, write a letter to all the pizzeras within 25 blocks saying that you are looking for one and see how many eagerly reply to you looking to sell. >> Well, this guy that I know truly had the best pizza here and everyone that works for me, everyone agrees with me. And I called him and I asked him, "Do you have any PTSD from it?" So he said he was doing consulting for a while and I go maybe would you consider >> he's a coach. >> Yeah. No. Exactly. And he's thinking about it. So I haven't heard back from him. Maybe he'll never call me back. But >> why isn't he making pizza? >> This is kind of an interesting business story. His rent went up where he was at. He bought a building like 2 miles away, but two miles in the city is like going to the other end of the earth. So it was out of the market and he went broke. And I said to him, "Why didn't you just raise your pizza prices? $2 a pizza and he said, "Oh, Jay, you don't understand. When I raise prices a dollar, you know, somebody would complain." He put himself out of business because of it got in his head that someone was going to compl it. It's a shame. He should have just raised his prices two bucks. He'd still be here and I'd still be enjoying the pizza. It just shows you this is an extremely emotional thing with entrepreneur. They get it in their head. Oh no, I can't charge anymore because Joe complained last week that my price return. And honest to God, he put himself out of business because of that. So, we'll see. I probably won't do it, but I I'm also looking for something that's home furnishing related that would fit in there nicely. But, but I just to illustrate, you got to evolve in business. And like the building I bought, the the factory building, the warehouse, the taxes were 28 grand when I bought it in 2008. Now, they're 228,000. That money is coming from somewhere. So, I need to reallocate space and condense a little bit and rent out. And it used to be that space might rent for three $4 a foot per year. Now it's 12. So I'm reacting. I'm evolving. I'm going to go rent out some of it for 12 bucks a foot and that'll take care of the tax problem. But it just is another illustration of one has to evolve as the world changes. >> Well, Jay, if your pizza guy had had a coach, he may have had a better mindset about realizing that he has to charge more to keep his profit levels there. >> I honestly got it could have been one conversation with just telling him, "Get over it. That guy that was complaining still would have bought the pizza probably. And if he wouldn't have, you're not going to lose 20% of your customers cuz your pizza went up $2. Maybe you'll lose 5%. Look, if you raised your prices 10%, you'd have to lose 25% of the business to lose money. You got to charge what you got to charge at the end of the day. My thanks to David Barnett, Jay Goldz, and Lena Maguire. I really appreciate you taking the time. One thing before you go. Everything we do at 21 Hats is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd, or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. You can sign up for both by subscribing to the Morning Report. If you have any questions, you can email me at lauren21hats.com. And if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report, please tell a friend, tell an enemy, tell every business owner you know. Your word of mouth owner to owner will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us. Thank you. It means a lot. This episode was produced by another entrepreneur, Jess Stubberon, founder of Blank Word Productions. Thanks for listening, everyone. [Music]