Walking Away From a Salary

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren Feldman this week Sarah seagull tells sha busy and Jay gz why she's decided to take her public relations business back after selling it two years ago to a larger firm so it could handle the backend stuff and allow her to focus on public relations for Sarah the immediate result of the decision to break away has been an exhausting few months starting over including reincorporating finding health insurance and reducing her own pay meanwhile Jay suggests an old school marketing tactic that involves leveraging an envelope a stamp and the post office and Sean explains how he created a sales process that has allowed him to remove himself from day-to-day Sales Plus a listener asked the three owners when do you know if you've made it or do you ever know Shan Jay and Sarah three owners at very different stages of building a business offer three very different answers even in Good Times owning and running a business can be a lonely Pursuit our hope is that these weekly conversations brought to you by our principal sponsor the great game of business will let owners know they are not alone in facing challenges same thing with our daily newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report which Inc magazine named the best newsletter for business owners and which you can subscribe to for free at 21h hats.com where you can also find transcripts of our podcast episodes and lots of other articles and interviews joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Sean busy CEO of Kinesis which is based in Portland Oregon and works with small businesses on marketing culture and strategy Jay goz whose companies in Chicago include a picture frame business artist frame service and home furnishing store Jason Hol and Sarah seagull who is founder and CEO of seagull Communications a public relations firm based in San Francisco the episode is titled walking away from a salary but before we get started I've got a little news I've scheduled the first 21 hats live event for Chicago from May 17th to May 19th this is your chance to meet the regulars on the 21 hats podcast along with other owners and CEOs in the 21 hats Community this will not be a traditional conference where people talk at you it's going to be an intimate Gathering limited to just 20 attendees we'll have several Deep dive peer group sessions where you'll get to raise your own challenges and issues you'll also get to participate in the taping of a podcast but most of all you'll get to engage and connect in a relaxed setting over good food with other owners and CEOs on similar Journeys let me know if you want more information you can do that by replying to your Morning Report or by emailing me at Lauren 21h hats.com if you're interested please let me know soon as I said we're only taking 20 attendees now now on to today's episode welcome Jay Shan and Sarah it's great to have you here Sarah let's start with you I think you have some news to share yeah a little a little news to share so two years ago um I was offered the opportunity to be acquired by a larger entity and I was being brought in by somebody that I respected and really saw the the opportunity to to not have to handle my backend stuff anymore and really kind of cross collaborate with a larger team and and the the opportunity was there and we did it for two years but uh end of last year um I had a nice chat with him and I said you know what I don't think it's going where I wanted it to go and I think we should break up so we broke up what wasn't going the way you wanted it to go well there were a lot of just varying factors like I really like the people like there is no doubt about that like they were super smart wonderful warm encouraging supportive I learned so much over the last two years but in terms of my business and the growth of my business I wasn't seeing a value that made me want to continue to kind of I I felt like I was kind of hit my head against the wall in terms of finding better ways to integrate our businesses um and cross-pollinate with their teams because their teams are fantastic it was a an issue of finding the right projects to work on together but also the majority of their folks were on the east coast and the majority of my people are on the west coast so it's a time zone it just it was not the right time or place and the vision the person that kind of prompted the whole acquisition left shortly after um we were Acquired and so that visionary was never around really to kind of see it through so I don't know if that impacted what it would have been but it just it never blossomed let's put it that way was it more that you had hoped that they would refer business to you or was it that you just didn't work well together oh no well we worked fabulous together when we did have the opportunities but the natural flow of business opportunities wasn't there and that was kind of what incentivized me to do do it was that oh yeah we will we'll have all of the stuff that we can push your way and it was it was pretty limited it was because that that person that had started the um the whole idea um wasn't there to advocate for it there's no no one there to do it and I you know I was busy working running my business that and I didn't have a knowledgebase necessarily of every opportunity um and probably a lot of that is on on me not taking being more initiative but sometimes you just got to say you know what let's be friends so January 1st we're our own entity again and they have been nothing but awesome and supportive and uh encouraging and a great resource for me and help me find a new general counsel that I could use on contract like it wasn't a bad experience it was just not the right experience that's all did you have to buy the business back no I mean you never they never really gave you what check in the first place right I got a little bit of a check but it wasn't anything substantial um it was more the opportunity for growth right it was like a collaborative effort and nothing Venture nothing gain so okay yeah exactly Jay so how does it feel um well last two months of the year I swear like I probably had a heart attack probably about 15 times because it's not my first time at the rodeo when I first started my business I had a business partner she left so I had to I literally had to restart again Rebrand all of that kind of good stuff and then I was acquired and the idea initially was that I would merge with one of their existing Brands and that didn't work out so I had started that process and then we paused on that and then when we finally fully integrated there everything was great so but I you know dissolved my LLC I didn't have health care independently like so the last two months of the year I literally was restarting an entire um business and so January 1st I had zero dollars in my account and that was a little stressful I bet clients paid this month so things are things are good and I didn't leave on my own like my entire team is still um showing up to work every day um and they're getting paid and that's all that really matters so you're not really you're obviously not a startup you're more of a reboot I'm more of a reboot yeah but if anybody wants to know how to start a small business business from scratch I've done it many times now you're a glutton for punishment I am but I you know I and but I learn things like when I I'm not going to say anything terrible about providers and vendors but there were a couple vendors that I used when I first started they were terrible and then I found better vendors so I think that I'm more set up and and this time around I also have the benefit of what my first employee that I had hired she transitioned into an operations manager role and so she has been instrumental in helping me with all of the nitty-gritty so I W I haven't been doing it totally on my own again um I I have had somebody who uh is helping me figure it out so on the entrepreneurial dashboard there's three major gauges marketing management finance my guess is you got the management thing down what is your weakest spot that you're most concerned about is it the finance piece is it the finding new business piece what is is it that that's keeping you up at night maybe I hate that phrase but maybe that's the right phrase well I think always is just making sure that I can meet Peril that's always going to be the the number one thing and I've reduced and negated some of my income over the last since the beginning of the year just to make sure that I start to have a little bit of a pad and they always say when you you're the owner you're the boss you're the the last person to get paid um and I'm fine with that position I'd rather make sure that things keep going along in the way that they should so that's probably my biggest stress is the finance part as far as New Biz it's very weird but we're getting a lot of New Biz like knock on wood but I I think we're just starting to be more of a presence um because of the the various things that we've done over the years to kind of establish ourselves that's interesting because this is a bit of a tough time especially for tech companies and I know you have a lot of them in in your neighborhood can you tell us a little bit more about why you think your business is picking up yeah we have Tech clients for sure so there are a lot of agencies that will be very specific about what kind of clients they work with they'll say we only do food and beverage we only do technology we only do B2B we don't do that um and that's saved us during covid i w I think I've mentioned before I watched 1hc literally dissolve into to nearly nothing because they were only hospitality and so uh while I would love to say I want to have a absolute focus and only do beer clients I thought it was chocolate I thought it was picture framers chocolate's my goal I like to have a diversity of clients and so does my team because it keeps you kind of fresh on uh what's happening in in various industry so to your question yeah all the big guys are dropping employee like hot cakes but my theory about that is that some of them are doing it not because they need to do it but because other companies are doing it it's okay now it's normal like I read an article the other day about Microsoft and you know their earnings have been pretty good they don't really need to to lay off as many people as they did but they may have done it because you know they wanted to trim the fat and why not do it now when everybody else is laying people off yeah I think a lot of it's that you know it's so much uh somebody was pointing out the other day that I can't remember which tech company it was it might have been Amazon you know they laid off 10,000 people and they made the point that they hired 40,000 the quarter before so it's like these numbers look really dire part of that's the media um wanting to create a narrative that that gets clicks even though you know people are losing their jobs and it's pretty awful yeah but they the the unemployment rate is still what two three % it's still super super low like we're actually hiring right now we're looking to hire two new people um I'm actually interviewing um two people today does that feel different Sarah hiring now are are you a little bit leery of that uh out on your own no well I just have to make sure that it's the right fit and we it's just it's a process I just I know I need to make sure that I have the the numbers to pay that person right um the problem isn't necessarily it's hard to find people especially in the Bay Area that that do anything besides B2B and Tech like we we have beer and wine and jewelry and metaverse I mean we have a diversity and we like to find people that are happy to do both but if you worked at a tech company like in their Communications Department and then you want to work in an agency we're not going to be able to compete with your salary the challenge is finding PE good people for the right price how did your existing staff uh react Sarah were did they have to be reassured were they excited what was their take they were a little bit anxious they hadn't been through it before um Sarah on my team who's my operations manager she came into the company with me and left the company with me she wasn't concerned necessarily I think that everybody just wanted to see the dust settle and we we now have a nice little office in San Francisco our desks are minimal but we have three more desks set to arrive next week they're seeing that there was no change in their day-to-day Andor their paycheck and I think that once that was apparent people were a little bit more relaxed how far is your office from where it was four blocks oh good so nobody said oh this is hard for me to get here now or something okay no I'm in like I can I just show off like my location I have a tiny it's not a huge office but it's a fine office for me and it's literally like uh a block from Dragon's Gate which is the beautiful gates to Chinatown um a block from the financial district and then um there's a really nice hotel about a block away with a a nice cocktail at the end of long day that sounds good I'm surrounded by dim some let me ask this question cuz I I think I remember when I first met you you had just you know you the partner had left and you were just picking up steam and then as you said you thought this was a good thing because you wouldn't have to deal with the backend stuff so my question is I don't know that you ever fully hit stride on your own so I'm just wondering what piece of that quote unquote the back room stuff did you never really have to deal with that now you have to I'm one of those people that I really I like to know how to do everything it's hard for me not to know how to do everything I'm like a generalist list right and I'm realizing that more and more that I can't know how to do everything like for example I have a social media team and they know how to use this you know scheduling program and they knew how to do all these bells and whistles on social media I'm like I have no idea what they do and if they were to ever like depart like I'd be in the hole because I wouldn't I couldn't step in and help you need them to write down their processes Yeah we actually are we're working on a a best practices and a you know a sop Sops document right now but like still it's like I can't even if they were and I had it written down like I couldn't F those shoes congratulations you've made the jump from profession to running a business I certainly can't do everything that all my employees do and that is a jump that you have to finally get to I mean you know there's people that are running businesses can't do every single thing in the business that's just the nature of Beast so and that's been a big thing Jay like I have to realize that it's it's not even a good use of my time to know how to do everything that's I have to tell you good for you because there's lots of people that never get to that stage and they they go their entire career like that with three employees because they need to have their hands on everything and it does stunt your growth so I'm glad to hear that you've you've come up with that realization and you're dealing with it good for you Sarah has it changed your outlook for this year is it affecting your goal your hopes and dreams for what you hope to accomplish this year I met with everybody on the team and we did their goals for we're doing quarterly goals for team um this year so everybody has three goals just for the quarter um I haven't done my own goals yet just because I finally have come up for air and I think that my biggest goal and Jay will probably be proud of this is to do what he's always advised you know working on the business not in the business and that's part of the reason we're hiring some more people so I can get out of fully out of the dayto day congratulations again oh that's you know you don't have to do that but if you want to grow you have to do that and like I said there's lots of businesses in America most probably 99% of businesses never get past that they run their business they've got their six or eight employees everything goes through them and they make a living and then they retire one day uh there's very few companies statistically that get that big that you you have to do that and some people don't have the head for it or really don't want to so it sounds like you're making good progress with all that yeah I mean my I mean if if you ask me like I want to grow I mean I definitely like I don't know that I'll ever be you know fleshman Hiller size but uh I want to be a contender and establish something I mean I feel like if you look at my growth in general over the last 5 years it's been substantial and if I can keep up that momentum or even double it but I want to grow smart you know I don't I don't want to get ourselves into trouble I've actually thought about the idea of like it would it be great to like acquire a smaller agency that really is a you know two-person show with a bunch of clients just to get some grow that way but I haven't totally figured out my goals yet sah how do you get new business um in terms of is it predominantly through your network is it through marketing you do uh something else so we do a lot of original content and so that's number one and so we're we're constantly pushing that out we have a a newsletter that goes out on a regular basis I am part of several organizations so I try to be as involved as possible I was just elected to the board of directors for the public relations Association chapter here in San Francisco so it's just you know talking to people and being referred and then literally asking my clients say hey refer us say something nice about us and then working we work with a bunch of marketing agencies as well on great projects and uh I will constantly refer them and they will refer me back most of the relationships I have they're like yeah you'll get me back and then I'll send them work so because we don't do digital marketing that's not our thing um and most marketing agencies will have like a PR person but they don't really do what we do there's not much competition so we're happy to refer um either direction how do you see your involvement in the sales process as you grow and and scale and bring more people good question my sales process is not fine-tuned and it is I listen to podcasts a lot outside of this one Sarah blasphemy I know no there's a big pie plenty of room and you know how do you systemize it how do you systemize your process for new business and I would love your thoughts on on that um but also I don't want to systemize it so much that it's impersonal I am still trying to navigate what that looks like I can tell you an opportunity after 45 years I've used I don't know I think I've had three or four PR firms over the years how many people call me send me a letter on an annual basis saying hey we've been looking at your business I I think you've got an interesting story I would love to talk to you about being your P how many of those outreaches do I get zero zero in 45 years I think there's an opportunity for brainstorming like what companies would you like to work for and then sending them a letter and an actual paper letter with a stamp in the whole routine and an envelope really says I've been looking at yeah I I I've had this conversation with Sean I seldom get one I I certainly when you get when you get an envelope that's typed out to your name when you you know this is like the the Lady or the Tiger it's either going to be a I love your company thank you so much or you're scum of the earth and I'm suing you it's one or the other or it's a legal thing now I never get those I haven't had one of those in many many many years but I always open them and uh it's it's it's it's surprising to me that the amount of emails I get every day pitching me I I get like you get I get 20 30 a day and like I'd open the letter and I'd read it I literally get at least two maybe three either LinkedIn inails or regular emails every day with somebody saying hey we can send you new business leads with our magic skills and tools like I never open those up I get them I get them never I delete delete delete like literally it's hard for me to look at my LinkedIn mail nowadays because it's like that's all it is it's somebody wanting to prostitute my business for me and they're usually not even written well and you know you think yourself if you can't write a letter to me trying to get me as a client why would I hire you to help me to help me go out and Market it you can't even Market yourself yeah and as a PR professional it's interesting because I have clients that will get solicited by another agency and then my clients will send me the email like what is this because it's another agency we actually had a funny scenario where there's this agency that I swear that it was just going down my list of clients that I had listed on my website and they were emailing every single one of them and so it was just this kind of running joke of like oh they're back at it again that's tacky that is very tacky I mean if I could if we can step back just to sex sah um and just an experience share on the sales side of things when I finally sat down and shifted from Sean's intuition is the sales process to okay let's map this out and build a system it really changed our company so we mapped it out into like a discret seven or eight steps and then we map that to our CRM which would make Gene marks really happy um and and essentially what it allowed us to do is to start optimizing the process and see like where were we losing people where were people really affirming us as a as a choice and it really helped us scale and it also then allowed me to do the magic trick which a lot of companies struggle with which is for me to actually get out of sales um because now we had a way to do it that I could train somebody in and we could optimize that so I started training my internal teams and how to do the work and and even yesterday we were looking at making an announcement to all our clients and I was looking at I was like wow I have no connection to these three clients because the sales process was run by other people first of all I did literally um that was one of the January things is is one of my staffers like she's she's really interested in in doing more of the New Biz and the strategy and all that kind of stuff so I had her on a New Biz call with me yesterday and she's going to start doing the proposals and all of that and she's just natural at it she she makes people feel awesome and so it's a natural fit so yeah I'm and doing that B I want to hear about your process tell me about your process I'm curious yeah sure um so what one of the things we did is we picked a CRM that was easy so ENT we could make the process easy too and the rough outline is first stage is the initial conversation so somebody's curious about what what it is you do they have an interest but you haven't validated them and that's um you know kind of like the inbound inquiry level and a lot of stuff comes into that and then never goes any further because a lot of times they don't have budget they don't actually want to buy what you're offering they're confused etc etc but then those that make it through that you know essentially what we're trying to do is discover what they're trying to achieve and and that's a lot of inquiry inquiry inquiry they should do more talking than we do less pitching from us and more them sharing what their challenges are and then that becomes the shape of subsequent meetings which is uh starts to become us talking about how we can address their needs which is probably very similar to you in your pitch process from there there's an we try to get to an agreement at the end of this meeting like hey do you do you feel like moving forward for us together makes sense do you want to set up another meeting to talk about our engagement agreement and you know kind of the nuts and bolts of how this would be so every step is designed to get more and more specific to where the last meeting is about the engagement agreement where we're actually reviewing the agreement together and getting them to either say yes to everything or to answer the question that they're confused about and the idea being that we're never sending a proposal like never yeah it's well what I mean by that is I'm never emailing somebody something it's always a conversation to get to an agreement and the prop the proposal for us is to engage in what what I I think we talked about in one of the earlier podcasts about that uh Discovery process what we call true north um which is the kind of short engagement you know four months to kind of get to the essence of their business and make sure that when we work together it's really a great experience and if it's not four months is no big deal what is your first point of contact how do you are you actually using that thing that's on a desk with the telephone are you actually calling people are you sending what is the first what is the first point of contact so if you're talking top of funnel like how to get people into interested a lot of times it's like Sarah it's referral it's centers of influence it's word of mouth before the pandemic the most powerful engine of new business generation from for us was speaking like you know going to a conference and being a speaker and workshops so inviting people to be part of something where they were going to learn as what we discovered is that business owners who want to learn are really a good fit for us because if they want to learn then they're open to new ideas and they're not the kind of business owner who comes to the table thinking they know everything and so um learning environments are really good for us so that's top of the funnel I know I've said this before but I'm gonna say it again I actually answer my phone and I'm telling you 95% of the people to call are so incompetent first they start with how are you today the second they say that I know it's a sales call and it's like I know you don't care how I am today can you just get to the point Sean or Sarah do you answer the phone if you don't know who's calling well there's no way for somebody to reach me which is sort of intentional from a sales perspective that would be no yeah Sarah our old office we had like what are the system Uma we had that system and everybody had a number um and nobody ever used it so yeah um and everybody uses their cell phone so here we got internet service and it came with a free telephone line and I just set that up to where it automatically goes to um a digital voicemail so I we'll get those but nobody calls yeah I've been getting the ones that are literally every day I get a call from these these loan these oh we can get you the employee Tex I don't know where these people came from but it it's on my cell phone too every those are scammers the employee retention tax credit they want yeah they want a huge percentage of it you you want to stay away from them well I don't even answer them but I think i' get more new business if on my website I said hey text me because so many people just text they don't want even want to send Emil I mind that I think that's a good idea like hey text us if you want to talk and you there are there are ways that you can set up text where you can establish a a a a text um that goes to a different um phone number but it routes to your number so it's a it's it's not your personal text but you still get it on your phone in a business like ours A lot of times you have to create create awareness for the buyer that they actually have a problem this is why for us education has been a really good play right you have to get folks to understand the nature of the challenge in order to sell to them you know what I can't argue with that you're not selling phone systems you're not selling car leasing you're selling something that it would be it might be too difficult to actually find that customer that you could actually get a hold up but then get them to understand what you do so in your particular case okay I maybe maybe a phone calls is not it's it's difficult I think there's plenty of other businesses though stuff that I would absolutely pay attention to that don't call I mean Lauren and I are starting a new marketing podcast I I hope it's okay to announce this but essentially you know one of our first guest he did that Jay he did that and it is transformed his business I mean he is on he's got Rocket Fuel F fundamentally he identified very very carefully his right fi buyer was and what the need was he was solving and how he solved it in a different way and I think the problem with all these spammers is they have terrible messaging and and to your point they don't get to the point they try to use this like would you like a free Yeti cooler in order to talk to me or I'll take you to dinner if you spend time it's like what you know what are you what are you trying to sell me I have a question Sean yes what do you do to drive inbound newbiz outside of referral yeah well like I was saying pre- pandemic it was education it was so I would go to say a manufacturing association and and say hey are your members concerned about employee recruiting and retention and they'd be like yeah they suck at it and they're struggling really hard like great I have a presentation I can give it's not a sales pitch but it's all about how they can become better at recruiting and retention and so I would give that presentation and basically basically give away our IP and say Hey you can absolutely DIY this stuff here's how you would do it and then 10% of them would look at me and go this looks kind of hard and also I don't want to try to do it myself because I have a job how about you help me with this and you know I would get lots of business through that it was a great methodology you know teaching people you don't do that anymore well the pandemic screwed that up and and what I found is over VI so to J point the medium matters you know email is becoming less and less of a thing people want to pay attention to he's saying Hey try a letter because I don't get those anymore and you know I think he's on to something uh so for us we found like Zoom did not work in the pandemic for that type of approach people just don't buy because they don't have the kind of relationship they have in person right so it was really tough on us it was this podcast told me to like go and do our pitches in person and we started doing that and it just it just makes so much a difference because in all honesty what we do right now as in the services that we provide it's similar to what a lot of agencies do we you know we're not we're not doing brain surgery we've not reinvented the process or or the deliverables and what it comes down to really is whether or not you gel with the client whether or not you speak the same language where you feel comfortable talking to them and whether or not you're smiling during the conversation and you can't really do that on Zoom yeah because we're in the business of trust right we are selling trust because what what we do there's a lot of black box to it especially in the early days so you have to create a sense of trust and Affinity in the marketing process and email doesn't do that email doesn't create a sense of trust and Affinity it's just garbage Sean are you going back to what you were doing before now uh that they they're more Live Events are you trying to pick up where you left off totally I mean and then what's good about it is people are really hungry for that so I'm seeing a lot of Engagement for going to events um the other piece that we have started doing that is new is we've started shaping our own events so we did our Catalyst event in the fall and then that was an in-person event for um small business owners and then um the digital side of it which has actually been working really well are something we call Catalyst Labs which is where we create a small group Round Table of business owners that are addressing a specific issue could be you know how to be remarkable as an engineering firm could be um how to work on your employer brand and then I make specific invites so to Jay's Point that's where the opportunity is to go out to the market and say hey I saw you on LinkedIn and you posted something interesting would you like to join us for an educational session on that topic and share your Insight and learn from others you know we can compare notes um get to know each other that's been really effective I I I haven't gotten any business from it but I've gotten a lot of a lot of Engagement and a lot of new connections so that's working really well I want to get to one more thing uh we got an interesting listener question it came from the owner of of all things a picture framing shop what are the odds of that this is from Jay it's from somebody no it's it's from an owner named Rich Aron houseee who uh was curious to see what responses he would get to the question when do you know if you've made it or do you never know I'm at a stage where I feel the business is set up for success in the future assuming we continue to get things right but I'm not there yet part of me is afraid I'll never feel I've got there until I'm retiring but I really hope it is sooner than that you guys are all at different stages have you thought about that absolutely I don't think a an entrepreneur should ever feel like they've made it I think that once you have that feeling then you're not moving forward anymore and you're complacent I mean I I feel like an impostor when it comes to running a business every day and it makes me work harder at what I do um but I also realize that everybody feels like an impostor in running a business do do you think that's true everybody I completely disagree with pretty much everything you just said really yeah I'm older than you so I to be fair I'm older than you I've been doing it longer I'm just telling you I feel completely liberated that I made it that there's a certain number that once you have a certain number you say you know what I will never be hurting for money I can buy anything I want life is grand I made it and as far as being complacent I'm still you know going to work I'm still trying to grow it not like I used to because I don't need to when did you know you'd made it Jay uh when I turned about 50 you know I've been being I've been buying real estate all these years just for the business and I needed it and I finally woke up and I looked at what they were worth and I realize oh my God I'm I'm far more successful than I ever imagined and like it's good and I cannot emphasize enough I've got this Albatross off of me about never doing enough never being enough and I hear about people making gazillions of dollars I watch Mark Cuban on Shark Tank good for Mark he's way smarter than I am no problem I don't care I don't care about who's making how much I made it and I can't tell you how liberating that is so I fully disagree and I I hope that everyone in in entrepreneurship gets to the point that they can say I made it I don't think grinding it out every day for the rest of your life thinking I'm not good enough I'm not doing enough I've been there I I it's much better to feel like you made it so that's what I wish for everyone Sarah what do you think of that well I think we agree to disagree because I don't I don't knowing myself I'm never going to feel like I you there going to be aspects of like you know I've done a good job whatever but there's to me there's always another Hill to climb and another opportunity another challenge like I'm a constant learner like on my way to work today I was listening to a COR era like I just I want to understand and see what I can do to improve myself and my company and so I don't know that I will ever say hey I'm I've checked that box I would love to be able to get to where Jay is but I don't think I'll be able to do that until I retired well we're not disagreeing I do exactly what you do I still think about ways to improve things but I I I maybe your personality type you just said maybe you'll never feel that way maybe maybe but that doesn't mean you're wrong or I'm right yeah I'm My Own Worst critic like 100% And I used to be but sometimes it's it's important to tell people when you think that you've made it like my so when I was a TV reporter in Binghamton New York my roommate was the morning anchor there a lovely woman by the name of Kristen Wright and you know she's bopped around from various television stations since then and uh she went uh out of broadcast for a while and then she got a job at uh at the NPR station in Washington DC doing so and I'm sitting there this morning listening to NPR and she came on and did a story and my first reaction was I texted her and I was like you make made it you are my hero and I think part of it is hearing it from other people I'm never going to be the person that says it to myself maybe someday someone will tell me I made it and you just set it up perfectly for me and my message to everyone is be your own hero that's my message I don't need I want to be my own hero and I'm 66 I've been doing this a long time I wouldn't have said what I just said to you 10 years ago well maybe 10 but it took me a while to finally get to this Sean how do you think about this issue I mean I think it kind of boils down to e extrinsic Rewards or intrinsic rewards and you know earlier in my life I I was much more extrinsically motivated uh as I built the business it was all about how do you get to a million dollars because that's a threshold that a lot of people can't get past so I work and work and work and work I get past a million dollars like okay well what now and okay well let's see if you can do it twice which is build a$2 million business right and you work and work and work you do that and I've just kind of come to a place in my life where I've realized that it's less important to me how other people measure me and uh you you see we haven't like applied for Awards in a long time um because that just hasn't been of value for me you know just personally just like kind of as an emotional I don't need that validation from outside sources so I would just encourage your listener to seek seek within himself you know it what makes him happy I think business is a trap to put so much energy into what others say about you and I I feel like Jay's a little bit at that point in his life where he's realized that and I don't mean to speak for you too much Jay but you know that give it a shot some of those things that we believe when we're younger are important you come to realize are a lot less important Jay this question did come from uh the owner of a picture framing shop just so you know it's not a picture framing shop he does high-end beautiful finish Corner frames he's of M but still he's in the picture frame business yes I had a long talk with him he's got a lovely story and he's on a great path and I think he will absolutely get to a point where he feels successful he's just only been in it I think seven years well well thank you for correcting me on that and I guess I just wanted to ask is there anything about that particular industry that would lend itself toward an answer to this question well the high-end frame suppliers like there's not many of them left and he's running a great business that makes those frames for frame shops and I think he could very easily in the next I don't know five 10 years get the business up to a size that he's making plenty of money and life is good I love picture framers they're doing they work hard they're trying to make customers happy and it's a small industry but we do good things we make we make customers happy so he's in that he's in the making customers happy business and that's why I love picture framing all all right my thanks to Shan busy Jay goz and Sarah seagull and of course to our sponsor the great game of business which helps businesses Implement open book management and employee ownership you can learn more at Great game.com thanks for sharing everyone wait wait don't leave yet if you have a question or a comment that you'd like the 21 hats owners to address send it to me by replying to your Morning Report or by email at Lauren 21h hats.com that's l r n21 hats.com do it now before you forget and don't be afraid to tell Jay what you really think you can take it and if you got something out of this conversation help us reach more business owners tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcast follow us on Twitter subscribe to the morning report at 21h hats.com this episode was produced by just through Baron founder of blank word Productions okay now you can leave thanks for listening everyone he [Music]