When Your Business and Your Values Collide

Hello everyone. Welcome to the 21 Hats podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Feldman. For the past six years, we've done our best to avoid talking politics [music] on this podcast by focusing on the business realities owners confront every day. We've tried to create a space where people with very different perspectives [music] from different industries and different parts of the country can still learn from one another. That's something we take seriously. But we also live in the real world and lately [music] the real world has been making that separation harder. On this episode, Paul [music] DS, Kate Morgan, and Liz Picarazzi talk about those moments when business and personal beliefs collide and when staying silent may not feel like an option. They've each faced uncomfortable questions. What do you do when an employee says something you [music] find objectionable? Are there customers you simply won't work with? How do you [music] stay true to your values without putting your company at risk? There are no easy answers here, [music] and not everyone will agree on where the line should be drawn. But as always, [music] there's real value in seeing how other owners handle tricky situations. Even in good times, owning and running a business can be [music] a lonely pursuit. Our hope is that these weekly conversations will let owners know they are not [music] alone in facing challenges. In fact, that's the whole idea behind the 21 Hask community. engaging with other owners to get the kinds of insights only another owner can offer. If you're interested in learning [music] more, you can sign up for a free trial of the Morning Report newsletter, which highlights the most important news of the day for business owners and shows how other owners are solving problems and seizing [music] opportunities. Just search the 21 Hats Morning Report to subscribe. Joining me this week on the podcast are regulars Paul D, CEO of Paul D's Cabinet [music] Makers, which is based outside of Philadelphia and makes custom conference tables, Kate Morgan, who is CEO of Boston Human Capital Partners, [music] which is based in Boston and offers recruiting and fractional HR services, and Liz Picarazzi, who is CEO of City Bin, which makes [music] trash enclosures and package bins, and is based in Brooklyn, New York. The episode is titled When Your [music] Business and Your Values Collide. Welcome Paul, Kate, and Liz to uh what will probably be [music] the least downloaded episode I published this year. Um for obvious reasons, I normally do everything I can to [music] make sure we do not talk about politics here, and we're going to stick to that today. But we do live in interesting times and there are times when what's going on in the country and the world can become a business issue even for the owner of a small business and that's what we are going to discuss. Not the merits of anybody's political thinking but when if ever it makes sense for a business owner to speak up regardless of whatever business risk that might entail. I want to note that each of you has volunteered for this mission and each of you has had a recent experience that has raised related issues in your minds and that's where I want to start. So Kate, I think it's safe to say that your recent experience was the most dramatic of the three. Do you want to tell us about it? >> Uh well, it's probably dramatic because I make things dramatic. Uh yeah, I happened to be uh I wanted to go see uh the Super Bowl halftime show and I uh decided I'm in a very purple state right now in in Arizona. So I figured, you know what, I'll go to a Mexican restaurant cuz there's probably a better chance I'll be able to watch the halftime show. And uh I went and throughout the entire halftime show there was four women uh who were loudly carrying on about uh Bad Bunny and how he was speaking Spanish and it was just racist remark after racist remark and it was rather alarming and um I am not one to shut my mouth when it I mean they were specifically trying to draw attention to their ideas. So when it was over, I walked over and I called him out on it. I called him out really hard. And uh >> give us a little bit of a taste. How did you call them out? >> Uh well, I called him racist. [laughter] He said, "You know, this is clearly your your your views are uh steeped in racism, and I cannot believe that you'd come to a Mexican restaurant carrying this and loudly talking about it." And they quickly were trying to share the the well, we're just sharing our opinion. I'm like, "Well, I'm here to share my opinion as well, so I won't lie. I'm from Boston. I'm you know, so I have a temper. >> [laughter] >> I leaned into it and clearly I was the aggressor so I was asked to leave and uh as I was leaving the bartender and the manager were so apologetic to me and I looked over my shoulder and I saw the entire weight staff uh standing in line and smiling and nodding to me and I just really appreciated that. And I went home and I I recorded this video talking about it because I was just so beside myself and I posted it and a friend of mine, she goes, "I you have a lot of clients and candidates that that see you. Aren't you worried about that?" And my response is, "Why would I?" Cuz you you led opened this up with talking about politics. For me, I don't see that as politics. I see that as social justice. I don't know how politics got involved in social justice, but it's it's now politicized. >> How did you answer your friend's question? Were you at all concerned about the impact that no >> this incident and your posting it and appearing on this podcast as well might have on your business? No, because I don't want to do business with people who don't share my same values. And if you are loudly uh in in an antagonistic way objecting to my core values and belief systems, I don't want to do business with you. I'll find more business other places. There are people who might not have agreed with those women, but do view this as politics and might choose not to do business with you. Does that concern you at all? >> No. Not not in the least. Again, I talk so much about company core values and I I extend that into the vendors I work. I I the clients I you will never have harmony in your life if you're having to bump up against these folks in my personal opinion because I run a professional services organization so my people are everything. I've had people that didn't subscribe to my political beliefs and I'm okay with that but when we start talking about racism uh then I'm going to have a problem. Where do you draw the line? >> Um, >> what would you disagree with but tolerate? >> Well, I I I think anybody that voted for Trump, quite frankly, would not necessarily be somebody I would want to work with, but I would as long as they're not uh being overtly aggressive with it. Like, I'm not overtly aggressive with my agenda. Uh, but if somebody's going to be I I'm going to step up and I'm going to speak my mind. So, if people can stay in their lanes and they want to be polite about things, then everything's fine. I don't have necessarily a line just if it's going to uh directly target my belief system. >> Liz or Paul, any thoughts or questions? >> Uh, yeah. Who threw you out of the restaurant? the manager and the bartender, but I was the aggressor. >> How did they put it? >> They were like, "We're so sorry. You have to leave." [laughter] And we walked around the corner and they're like, "No, seriously, we're really, really sorry." And I'm like, "No, it's fair. I was the aggressor." Uh, and that was clear. It was just very uncomfortable. And it wasn't just the manager and the staff that were as I was walking out. Somebody, you know, gave me thumbs up, you know, a couple because they're they're having to sit there and listen to this and it was just so inappropriate. So inappropriate. It'd be one even if they were being quiet about it and talking amongst themselves, but they were there to put a billboard uh you know, a vocal billboard of their opinion to make everybody feel uncomfortable with their opinion. >> Have you heard anything from any of your employees? Are they aware? >> Um, yes. And I think there's a superlative for me that I am the one most likely to get shot or run over in a protest. But uh they they know I'm a very [clears throat] strong person and if I'm going to see something that's inappropriate and making other people feel uncomfortable uh for no reason, yeah, I'm going to speak up and they support me. >> Well, that's a little move of you. Glad you didn't get shot. [laughter] What happened to those people? Did they get thrown out? >> No, cuz they they were just talking loudly and we I mean I think it would have been interesting if it wasn't in a situation where I mean these people like I don't know if they have undocumented workers at this restaurant. It was a Mexican restaurant. So the way I look at it is, you know, if we were in Boston, I think they would have been asked to leave or somebody would have said something to them. So nobody was saying something. I interjected. >> Was anybody else talking while this while the halftime show was going on or was it dead? >> It it was it was pretty it was pretty quiet except for for these four women. That's why we were like, you know, there was a few of us just like kind of looking around at each other and I mean I was there by myself. I, you know, I just literally just ran in there to kind of sit and grab a bite to eat and see the halftime show. So, uh, but watching everybody like just rolling their eyes at them and all of this, but here's the thing. You know, they say if you see something, say something. Well, you know what? I'm of the belief if you hear something, say something because I can guarantee I can't go into exactly all that I said to them, but I can guarantee they will be thinking twice before they speak so loudly. Even though there's four of them and I'm not a big person, uh, I was pretty fierce and I hope I scare them under their racist rocks that they live and belong. >> Well, I recommend you never go to Alabama. [laughter] >> Yeah, there's a lot of places you shouldn't go. >> Kate, do you have any rules about political discourse at the business? Do do people know what everybody thinks politically? Is conversation encouraged, discouraged? >> No, we don't. I mean, people are are certainly they're allowed to have their opinion. Um, I'm never going to, you know, I mean, that you can't fire somebody for that. It's not a fireable offense. You know, I remember I had a woman working for me when Trump first was going into office and we were on the president club trip. So, she was my guest as a a trip winner and we had walked five miles down this beach and for the whole time she was going on cuz she knows my political beliefs and I had to sit there and take it and that's what I did. you know, she was talking about her opinion in ways that weren't, you know, I mean, yes, she was disparaging uh, you know, some of my opinions, but there's opinions and then there I think there's beliefs and I think that's where I I kind of look at things. I don't know if that makes sense. >> You said she was aware of your political opinions. Is that because you're particularly open about them at work? >> Um, yeah. I yeah, I'm I'm fairly I mean like I'm not going to necessarily try and sway people, but you know, I'll make a a joke or kind of a side comment, but I won't be necessarily scathing. Uh now, I think I'm starting to escalate it a little bit. Um but you know, I have, you know, one employee that's just totally non-political at all, and that's okay, too. >> Well, why wouldn't you fire someone you disagree with? >> Well, you can't politically. Sure you can. >> No, you can't. >> Why not? >> Uh, it's like religion, race. >> I don't think it is. >> Yeah, it's it's right up there with a religion. You can't talk about religion. You can't talk about politics because bad things happen. Yeah. No, it's it's uh definitely definitely not something you you should do. >> I think that would be inviting a lawsuit if you fired someone for their political beliefs. >> Yep. >> I'm not sure it would. It's actual federal federal law. >> Well, um that's interesting. I mean, my understand we have a policy that you cannot engage in conduct which is injurious or bothersome to others. And you could certainly make a case that somebody expressing a disagreeable political belief that is, you know, basically disparaging their co-workers would would rise to that. Who defines what disagreeable is? >> You. You're the boss. I I defined all the policies for my company. >> But if you're saying that you're going to fire somebody because you don't subscribe to their political beliefs, that is uh legally and ethically an issue. Now, if they are attacking people, if there's cause for uh termination because of aggressive behavior. Yes. Absolutely. >> But you're saying you can't fire someone because you think they voted for the wrong person. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Well, what if you found a reason to fire somebody who you didn't care for? That happens. >> Yeah. it. I mean, it happens all the time and that's what gets people sued because then they say, "Okay, well, it was because I was political and that's why you have to be documenting these things." Uh, because otherwise you could end up with a lawsuit. >> I'm curious about this. >> Paul, have you fired anybody for their political beliefs? [laughter] You seem more interested in this than I would have expected. >> No, but it's kind of the logical conclusion of where Kate's heading. I mean, you refuse to work with certain clients because of this and uh so that's depriving your employees of the opportunity to make money from those clients and it's just you know it's a continuum. >> So again I I want to be clear when I talk about I look at social justice and politics separately. So, I've had plenty of people who have not agreed with me on politics that have worked with me. I have ample clients that politically I do not subscribe to what they believe in. But I'm talking about racism that that is an egregious offense to me. I don't disagree that racism is is egregious, but this is one of those situations where when you erect some kind of boundaries about who you're going to do business with, you're having an effect on the overall prosperity of your company and your employees by by one one step remove. Now, as it happens, I'm pretty liberal, too, but I do business with a lot of people who aren't. And I think that it's difficult to say exactly where political disagreement shades into whatever I define as racism. But I've decided that I will happily take anybody's money with one person's exception, which I do regret. Uh but you know, we do business with a lot of conservative organizations. We do business with all kinds of people all over the country, all regions. We do business with the military. We do business with defense contractors. I mean, you could make a case pretty much for almost all of my clients that there's something objectionable about that. And just to clarify, the one person I regret taking the dollar from, and this is before I really understood who he was, was Alex Jones. And we made him a table. I'd never heard before. This was like 2007. He just wasn't on my radar. It was like, "Send me a check. Great. Here you go." And also, it's a table. I'm not I'm not equipping anybody to to actively do anything in particular. So by making decisions about who to do business with and who not to do business with, you affect the ability of your company to grow and the ability of me to enlarge my tribe and take their money and make it my money and let me take their money and do what I want with it. Whereas if I say no, then somebody else is going to get the money and they're going to do whatever they want. Paul, you you sell product. My product is my people. And in consulting, there's this 80 20% rule. 80% of your clients are going to be amazing. They're going to be phenomenal. The other 20%, they're just going to suck the energy out of you. Your will to live. And no, I don't need it. And you know what? There have been clients, you know, not for for this reason, you know, political or social reasons that we've cut and my company always does so much better because it doesn't drag on the morale of my team. >> Well, I would I would just like to clarify one thing. When you make products, there's a couple of different ways to do it. One is you run a factory and you're making tin cans and you're sending them out in trucks and you never meet the people who use them. That's not how we operate. We know every single one of our clients and we spend significant amounts of time talking to them. So I don't think it's all that different from from your business in that way. And just to make it clear that I made a decision that that uh I'll sell on the table and for the reasons I stated >> I have an an example with this that is very apt. So we started getting calls last year from the Trump organization for one of his buildings that has a lot of restaurants on the first floor and the restaurants were you know making a mess of the trash. it was becoming an issue and the first few emails and calls we actually just sort of refused them on principle. [clears throat] We just didn't like the idea of it. Um, and then we sort of thought he's known not to pay on time and he's certainly not involved with this, but if we essentially, you know, invoice them for probably some of the hardship that they would cause and we make them pay in advance, um, it would be worth doing because we would actually feel like we were sort of, I hate to say it, we were sort of oneupping them. Like I'll be honest, we were going to charge them more than an average client pays. [laughter] I'll just admit it. And that would have delighted us. Um the issue was that there was a zoning technicality that prevented the job from happening and I ended up being glad for it because I did talk to some of my friends and family and that was sort of like blood money. um do you really want to take their money and are you taking a risk as a contractor with someone who is known not to pay his bills? So for us it was probably you know it good that that didn't happen but it was a conundrum where this official or this employee of the Trump organization left Frank my COO and husband a message that was like don't you want to do business with me? I'm trying to like pay you to put these trash cans here. Why aren't you returning my calls? And Frank maybe got a little bit of a lift out of that that they were pursuing him so much. And um that was an interesting one though because I'm sure that our employees would not have really cared. They're all for like let's all make more money. But uh we had a sort of an ethical debate about it. It went on for a little while until we decided yes, we're going to do this deal and then it ended up not happening. And that was probably for the best. Well, I've done business with the Trump organization, although it was before he went became president and uh got paid. Um, no negotiations. Everybody was very pleasant. So, I think that that uh you know, you're going to make the decision you want to make. I think doing business with them is the right decision and charging them whatever you feel like is also the right decision. So, you wonder whether everybody who works at the Trump organization is exactly aligned with Trump or do they just like I need a paycheck and maybe the Trump organization ends up paying a lot more to get people to work there and that person is basically doing the same calculus. You know, who knows? >> Yeah. But I think that that the point I would come to is that when you put guard rails around who you're going to do business with, you're affecting the possible prosperity of your team. And you can make a decision for yourself. Sure, I'll make more money, I'll make less money. But if you would like to grow your company and you can see that half the country is all for whatever you object to and you're leaving money on the table, you are depriving your organization and your team of some future level of prosperity. And so I I think it's a decision that every business owner has to make about customers. Now, the situation that brought me into this conversation was a conversation with one of my employees who surprised me by expressing an opinion on recent events that was completely counter to everything he'd ever said that he believed in before this, but was sort of the easy I'll go along with uh, you know, one one set of opinions, and I'm not going to get too specific about it, but what struck me was the hypocrisy And this is someone that I a very personable guy and and I have enjoyed for many years. He's worked for me for I think nine years now and just enjoyed bantering with him. But after that I was just like, you know what, I'm going to cool off a little bit. I don't I don't really need to. I don't want to run into this again talking about something and not be surprised by something that that uh I don't agree with. He's an employee. I don't have to be friends with him. So, I just cooled it off and he noticed. He says like, "Hey, are you a little" And I'm like, "I don't want to discuss it." And that was it. When you have employees, you don't really have the right to to understand everything they think. But when they surprise you, you got to have to react to it somehow. I mean, Kate, you must have been surprised by an employee at some point in all the years you've been in business. >> I think I have a pretty high threshold I had a couple of employees that didn't want to get vaccinated and for whatever reason and I'm like okay well now we have a problem because we were going to a conference and they needed to be vaccinated and then they had relaxed uh the requirements and as long as you had like some sort of note you know and I was you know fine all right one didn't want to get a note she didn't go to the conference the other one got a note went to the conference That's fine. I can't impress upon them my beliefs. I can't fire them for not getting vaccinated. That's not my point. You know that. So, yeah, there's always going to be some situations. Again, they if somebody came in and started spouting off racist remarks, uh, no, no tolerance for that. Paul, you were talking earlier about an owner making a decision that could limit the ability of the business and its employees to make money. If I recall correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, you've told us here in in the past that you've actually put that decision to your employees and asked them, do you want to work with this customer, with this client? Do I remember that correctly? >> No. I think that that what happened was after George Floyd that there was a lot of companies that were putting out statements on their website and then the question was like if you're not making a statement you're doing the wrong thing. And personally I I was very sympathetic to that. But as I said a large number of my clients if they had seen something like that on the website that would have gone down. It would have had an a serious impact. I mean, I'm going to say 50% of my business is with people who I have very different politics with. And I didn't feel like I could make that decision without explaining to the company. here's the thing that uh we're sort of being asked to stand for our beliefs and and I'm the owner of this company so we're talking about my beliefs but I'm cognizant of the fact that this would have an effect a serious effect on the company and it's not like 2020 was a time when people were lining up to buy conference tables anyway you know like we were not at all sure that we were going to make it through in any case. So, I put it to a vote and said, "Okay, this is going to be an anonymous vote. You just write down a made printed up some forms so that nobody's handwriting or anything could be seen. Just let's vote on it." And uh the company said vote to make no statement. And so it's like okay, that's that. >> Was it a close vote? >> No, not at all. Not not even. And keeping in mind that at that time I had uh of about 20 people I think seven were from different countries. Some of them recent immigrants uh at least one with somewhat dodgy immigration status which has since been resolved. But they voted the way they wanted to. I I didn't even try to figure out who voted for what. But it was a big relief frankly because if we had put that statement up and business had it crashed even worse and uh and I would have had to lay off half the company that would have been terrible. So I was glad to have it have it uh off my plate frankly. Liz, you employ, as you've told us here many times, uh, immigrants, especially from Venezuela, I believe, and I understand that's become an issue, a business issue for you of late because they're less comfortable traveling around the city assembling your trash enclosures than uh they used to be. Do I have that right? >> Um, partially. So, they don't have any issue in New York City. they've never been pulled over. You know, ice is in the city, not a lot. Um, it's about traveling to other cities where the climate is not as well known. So, as we expand, sometimes we send our installers from New York to do the installations in like Boston, DC, Baltimore. And as ICE is pulling over more and more people, a few of my installers don't want to travel by van anymore, they'll work in the city. And interestingly, they will fly because ICE is not really an airport. So, people that have valid papers, like they all do, they're all able to travel. They'll travel to California, um, but they won't actually travel to DC because the chance of being pulled over is higher if they are to travel by vehicle. So, one of the things I've noticed is that as we grow, we do need to increase our installer network nationwide. We're training people in other cities to be able to install city bins. So, my reason before of expanding my installer network was just due to business growth and now it's actually due to racism as well. And um it's upsetting. It's really upsetting. I do have some employees who have relatives in other states that are being pulled over. I have one employee who calls his mom every day when she's driving to work and when she's driving home. If you're a brown person, there's a lot of risk if you live in certain places that you're going to get pulled over and probably especially if you're in a work van because there is an assumption that if you're a brown person driving a work van that you're somehow you illegal or just there's a lot of assumptions made. They have no idea that the men driving around my van vans are amazing employees. And the way I see it is they were very brave to come to another country and not know the language and then yet come here and work really hard and learn the language. Some of my employees I started five or six years ago. They've been promoted multiple times and they have equal opportunity. The thought of any of them being pulled over because of the color of their skin makes me really really upset. And luckily, I haven't dealt with any sort of racist or people who are customers that have ever said anything negative about my employees. But one thing I have noticed over the years, I primarily in both of my businesses um have hired labor laborers and um skilled workers, skilled trades people. And when I had the handyman business years ago, a couple of times when I was hiring and I took interviews with all manner of people, white people, brown people, black people, anyone who is qualified could come in for an interview. And a couple of the guys that were pretty far down in the process to be hired as handymen also assumed that they were going to be the manager over the existing handymen. And I had to sort of let them know no. Um, these employees, they may not speak perfect English, but they work perfectly. They're incredible at their job. They don't need to speak perfect English. And why is there this assumption that because you're older and you're white that you're going to be the manager of someone who is younger Venezuelan and doesn't speak great English? >> Is Is that the way you asked them? Did you put that question directly to them? >> To the Caucasian men? Um, I did. I did that actually with two that I remember. One was actually the day after Trump was elected in 2016. I went to the job site and he knows that, you know, I was not a Trump supporter and he sort of like laughed at me and oh, you know, I told you we all voted the right way, blahy blah. Well, he was super racist and so the other guys on his crew really didn't want him around. um he was on a trial job. He was not anyone that I actually hired, but part of the reason I didn't hire him was his expectation that he was going to be the manager over my employees that had already proven themselves. And you know, that was another instance I saw. Um, you know, I over the years I've hired people from many, many different countries and I can say that anybody who's from another country never took a job away from a nativeborn American, meaning Ohio, New York, whatever. They were born in this country. So, that's another assumption that is often made is that immigrants are taking jobs away. I would love it if more people applied for my jobs um of all races, but it just so turns out that a lot of the trades people that are coming from Latin America have better skills, have more experience, and quite frankly in this country when we decommissioned or we stopped doing shop classes and anything having to do with technical skills, we hurt generations of people that be working in the trades. Because most people these days, they don't even own a drill. But my employees were taught by their mostly their dads, their grandfathers. It was sort of like you're not a formed human being if you don't need know how to do handy stuff in your home. And that means that my candidate pool is going to have more of those people in it. And they are more likely to get hired because they do have that experience and they have that knowledge. Liz, are you doing anything differently uh to check the status of the people you hire? >> No, I mean we do the same thing. We use the the service papers. We verify. Yeah. >> And just to be clear, my employees are not worried about traveling because they don't have proper authorization. It's just the mode of transportation is more likely to get pulled over than if you're flying. like next week I'm going to Aspen with two of my employees to do an installation and I asked them you know are you worried at all about this travel and they both said no it's easy to travel we don't worry about being pulled like we don't worried about getting hassled from ICE it's really just with vehicles with roads with cars and so that was an insight I hadn't even really thought of before I mean who would have thought that traveling by plane was easier for imm immigrants than traveling by car. >> Liz, [clears throat] some immigrants in this country, especially I think including uh Venezuela, have been here with under refugee status, which I think the administration has tried to revoke. I'm not sure what the current uh status of this is. Um might that apply to any of your employees? >> So, um this political asylum process and yes, it does apply to some of my employees. um they're a little bit further into the process and so they're not as worried, but I do have one employee has some Italian ancestry and he's been taking Italian lessons recently and he's an amazing employee. He basically is like, "If I get any trouble here, I'm just moving to Italy. I know that they're going to be able to take me in and I don't want to deal with this and I don't blame him." One thing that I want to inject here is is important to this is that not every immigrant is actually pro- immigration. So I have a couple of employees that are uh sort of will classify who should come into the country and who shouldn't and have very strong beliefs that they came over here and they worked really hard but there's another class of immigrants that have moved in here and are just sort of on welfare and um I've tried not to clash over anything like that. I feel it's sort of problematic to judge who's a good immigrant and who's a bad immigrant. I mean, among immigrants of any generation, that has always existed. You know, relatives who are immigrants hate immigration. It's it's pretty common. But with politics with my employees, they're definitely not like Trumpers, and at this point, these guys can't vote anyways, but um they're very antisocialism. And so they are really appalled that Mum Donnie was elected in New York and just they're sort of disgusted by it actually and it's really because socialism messed up their country. So I can understand that and I also need to be sensitive to that because a couple weeks ago we posted on Instagram something about the Mum Donnie in administration and how they were doing trash policy and one of my employees contacted me and he said I don't think we should be putting that guy's name in anything unless he's literally standing next to a city bin and like it's something business related. and Frank and I discussed it and we sort of agreed. Um I he's a great employee. I don't want to alienate him. >> That's really interesting. Let me ask you this. It's tempting to think that you running a business is about products and services and customers and employees and all the obvious things. Is this changing the nature of business ownership for you or is this just another kind of challenge that business owners confront or is it changing the way it feels to be a business owner? I think that what's changed is being a human being and that's going to have repercussions in business like in all the other areas of life and uh we're being subjected to a set of forces that is way beyond any individual's control and our businesses exist in that world and so I don't particularly love the way for profit. We're all being divided and kind of encouraged to fight with each other over every single thing. On the other hand, a lot of the things that I find objectionable have always been around, just weren't brought in my face. So, is this a better world? No. Is it a different world? No. just that that it used to be easier to skate to the side of of all of these disagreements and and think that the public square was some place that we there were some boundaries as to what would be considered and discussed. But that left a lot of people in the dust. And in today's world, we're much more aware. We're trying to rectify some of those things. But the desire to do that, to either change things or keep things the same, has been monetized and weaponized in a way that makes it so much harder for us to have any kind of progress. I I'm I'm very distressed by it, but it's not because I own a business. It's because of just the things that are happening. >> Do you feel any kind of obligation to stand up and speak out publicly because you own a business? >> No, not me. As I said that would have repercussions that would affect not just me who can probably afford it best of all the people who I employ but the others and I don't think that if I I made it made an effort to do that and the predictable consequences happened that my employees would thank me for it and I my primary loyalty is to first my my family second to my employees they're my tribe you we we come together every day and and work hard to get along and and to do something wonderful. And to have politics destroy that or for me to insert politics in a way that would harm it, I think would be an enormous mistake. So, I'm not going to do that. >> All right. My thanks to Paul DS, Kate Morgan, and Liz Picarazzi. Thanks for sharing, everybody. Seriously, one thing before you go. [music] Everything we do at 21 Hacks is created by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs to help us all learn together. If you get something out of listening to [music] these podcast episodes, consider joining the conversation. You can do that by joining the 21 Hats sounding board, a Slack channel where you can tap the wisdom of a very smart crowd or by becoming a founding member and joining our monthly Zoom forum where you can be part of conversations much like the ones we have on the podcast. You can sign up for both by subscribing to the Morning Report. If you have any questions, you can email me at lauren21hats.com. And if you get something out of this podcast or out of the morning report, [music] please tell a friend, tell an enemy, tell every business owner you know. Your word of [music] mouth owner to owner will always be the most effective way to build this community for all of us. Thank you. It means [music] a lot. This episode was produced by another entrepreneur, Jess Stubberon, founder [music] of Blank Word Productions. Thanks for listening, everyone.