Why Not Us?

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the 21 hats podcast I'm your host Lauren feldin in this week's episode why not us we take you to a magical place where people leave their homes eat in restaurants buy toilet paper and no one has heard of Tiger King yes this episode was recorded before the Corona virus hit if you've been listening to the podcast you know that our weekly conversations have been focusing on the Urgent matter of surviving the crisis but we still have a few great episodes in the hopper that we plan to roll out as seems apprpriate this week's conversation features the three women among the five business owners who are the 21 hats podcast regulars they talk about their very different Journeys to where they are today and what's changed for women entrepreneurs you can tell me I can't do this says Karen Clark Cole at one point but it looks like I did to which Laura Xander adds my experience now is I have a lot more confidence because I can just tell people to f off we have a decent sized business we've done pretty well my business is my confidence Dana White tells us there are always these stereotypes with women when she gets upset it has nothing to do with what just happened it's all the baggage that she's bringing with her our hope is that business owners listening to these conversations will pick up a few tips if nothing else they will surely see that they are not the only ones fighting the good fight if you know a friend who might benefit from this episode please share it please subscribe wherever you get your podcast review us and rate US it makes a difference also this Thursday April 30 I'm hosting another 21 hats war room this week my guests on the free live webinar will be Ami casar one of the former most experts in small business lending and Ari winw who co-founded Zingerman's an iconic American Business that started as a college town Deli in an Arbor Michigan and grew into a mini conglomerate of small businesses more recently zingerman has had to Furlow nearly 300 employees you can get the link to register for the webinar through our daily email newsletter the 21 hats Morning Report or you can always just email me my address is L Feldman at 21h hats.com before before we get started I'm here with Adam witty who is the founder and CEO of Advantage Forbes books which helps entrepreneurs write and publish their own books Adam I know you think all entrepreneurs should consider writing a book why is that a book is the most powerful marketing tool in the world it's a way for you to share your story and your company's story without anyone ever feeling like they are being sold to it builds Authority it builds credibility it builds expertise for you and your business and we're recording this in the middle of this unprecedented crisis is now a good time to write a book uh Believe It or Not Lauren I would argue now is a better time probably than ever before entrepreneurs and business owners have an unprecedented amount of time on their calendar that quite frankly they did not think that they would have we are working with entrepreneurs all over the world who are using this unexpected downtime to create an asset for their business that will pay dividends for the rest of their career if someone does write a book how will they know if it's effective as a marketing tool they use a book as a sleuth marketing tool to generate new customers uh to advertise their business and ultimately to help convert uh prospects into customers and for many entrepreneurs a customer can be worth hundreds thousands even tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and so one new customer into your business can more than pay for the book uh speaking opportunities PR and media opport unities those are some of the other benefits I know a lot of entrepreneurs who've wanted to write a book and have never quite gotten around to it how do you help somebody in that situation we do our best to make it as easy and painless as possible and we do that by first pairing you with a master book planner who spends some time interviewing you and those interviews turn into a blueprint for your book then we assign a ghost writer to work with you to ask you questions about that Master book plan to interview you it's all done over the phone Lauren so it's super easy those interviews are then ultimately turned by the ghost riter into the manuscript of your book if someone wants to learn more where should they go we have a free copy of my best-selling book titled book the business and we're offering a discovery consultation to any 21 hat subscriber that wants to learn more Advantage family.com sl21 hats you heard him go to Advantage family.com 21 hats to get Adam's book and to sign up for your consultation now back to the [Music] show let's meet this week's 21 hats podcast lineup back with us today are Karen Clark Cole who is CEO of blinkux a digital research and design firm based in Seattle Dana White who is founder of paral Boyd a chain of hair salons based in Detroit and Laura Xander who's CEO of Jimmy beans wool a digital version of a neighborhood shop that's based in Reno Nevada this was bound to happen eventually this week happens to be uh the first time we've done a three uh 21 hats where our three panelists happen to be the three women among our five regulars um my first thought was that this would be a great opportunity to to talk about the issues that are particular to being a woman entrepreneur my next thought was well maybe we're past that maybe I should treat this just like any other 21 Hats episode he and Lauren I went back and forth on it and eventually I decided to just throw it all to you and let you guys decide are we pass this issue or is entrepreneurship still a very different experience for women than it is for men who wants to go first I'll take a stab at it I don't think we're at I don't think we're past this issue at all um I think the only way we'll get past it is if you know women keep you know making the same strides as far as you know kind of like what Karen just did and said hey amen Lauren like you know we have to make it we have to move the group past it and there's a part of me that's like oh gosh as women we have to do more work like why is it on us but I think because we have the vision um that we'll be able to do it but um as it was recently brought up to me about mansplaining I was wondering you know why do I always have to wait for whoever I'm talking to to kind of understand that they're of I'm of equal intelligence and that you know I have to wait for them to get me and get it um and especially being a minority woman whoa so no we're not past it Lauren not at all can you give us an example when this issue gets discussed um publicly it it tends to focus primarily on what happens when uh women entrepreneurs try to raise money um but I'm I'm sure that's not the only time not at all I'm wondering uh you know when you talk about being mansplained to is there a recent uh experience of that that you might share with us I mean there's that happens you know probably seven times out of 10 you know so what happens is you know it's easy to kind of box paral boid and say okay hair salon done but as you all know it's it's actually rather different as far as like the lean manufacturing component and and just the the data collection and what have you um and and I found that I have to wait wait I find that and I hate to generalize but I find that most men when I'm were doing an introduction and speaking with me about my business and what I do I have to wait for them to get it and get past the box right and it's only been a couple of occasions where the man didn't come to the conversation with I'm meeting with a black woman and let me hear what it is it happened when I talked to you Lauren it was you didn't come to the table with that you came and you immediately got it as you know well as a few others but for the majority of the time oh my goodness it's oh she and then the light goes off and then the conversation goes back and forth because they realize hey she is she's she's capable right so you know when you say the the light goes on and they get it what do you mean by get it specifically they take me out of the box right meaning they don't think that you're a CEO or they're not sure if you're the leader or or what do you mean I mean it's not so much that they you know you tell them you know I'm the leader I'm the CEO whatever but they have this perception of a woman-owned hair salon who she is and what I don't want to say what her intelligence is but how much does she know about business I see limited generally limited yeah generally and then I have to go through the motions with them to kind of get them to understand oh not only is the business different but because the business is different she can speak to a c and d and then they start to speak to those things with me once they realize that it can be done but upon the initial maybe five to 10 minutes it's this me waiting for you to catch up right and also me showing you which I I hate that I have to do um showing you that you know this is a conversation you can have with me about lean manufacturing data that I'm not just black female salon owner and you know what I kind of wish that was enough right I kind of wish I didn't have to show more let me ask you Dana is it possible that some of this is just people's expectations about what a hair salon is exactly it's interesting that we're talking about this right the second because I literally was just sitting downstairs with a guy I'm at a big um knitting show in New York City right now and I'm sitting with a guy who comes from a finance background he comes from like the Arthur Anderson world uh young guy about 30 years old and he recently bought a knitting subscription business but before that he spent a few years working with a beauty subscription business and getting that off the ground it's one of it's not Ipsy and not Birchbox but it's a a third tier to that I guess and he said that when he was raising money um and trying to get investors for this beauty subscription box that the men that he would go to because most of the investors were older men um would just look at him and they would give their opinion and they'd just be like this is ridiculous this is so dumb like why nobody's going to want to do this blah blah blah and he had to this is this young guy from Miami and he's just like he had to get to a point where he's like honestly your opinion doesn't matter um go give this box to your wife go give it to your daughter like you are not our target market and you're not our customer and the economics are here the business model is here and quit using your personal experience to make business decisions but I mention that because he is just a regular I mean he's he's a guy and he's talking to guys and so I think sometimes to Lauren's point and me being in a knitting world and a creative world um I think sometimes it's less about who the messenger is and the fact that these people they if these businesses are not within their worlds and their world of experience they just don't get it so we started this uh with my asking uh where we stand on this issue uh are we are we pass it or not and obviously Dana's response was a a very strong no we are not past it h h how would you answer that Laura I was actually that's a good question and I honestly have it's not popular to say but I I've never felt like I I've just never felt it you know I've never felt discriminated against as a woman I've never felt any barriers as a woman in business um you know every once in a while I'll have a woman or a man look at me and not understand what I'm saying or you know kind of be dismissive or be a jerk and um but it has never I don't know I've just I have not experienced it you know Dana and I have talked about playing rugby um and playing basketball and I think part of it is that I just kind of refuse to be intimidated you know so even when somebody is a little dismissive or a jerk um I basically either mentally or verbally say okay let's take it out on the court you know and let's see you know if you can beat me in basketball then great I'll you know I'll seed your point you get to a good point I mean I think it's It's tricky to tell sometimes where somebody's coming from you know a jerk is a jerk how do you know why they're being a jerk absolutely great point I agree but I disagree I think she's right there's this resolve that you have from your experiences that certain things you're just not going to let happen and and quite frankly I don't think any of us would be open if if we let the jerks determine the viability of our business I think for myself I'm keenly aware when there's the that I don't understand which is different than the okay I don't understand and I'm dismissing you because it can only be so much because of who I think you are I think it's there for me I totally and and that's why I'm nervous to even answer this because I'm not dismissing the fact that it's happening yeah um I just I have been fortunate and privileged enough to live in a bubble where I have it hasn't affected my life and my business you know where I've been able to say or I've been able to say you know what I don't want to do business with you anymore then um and I have had to do that but a lot of times I feel like it those the people that I haven't that have not treated me well um sometimes I think it's less about my gender and it's more about the fact that they're just um and they're to everybody but I think if I look back kind of intellectually and academically they're probably it probably is because I'm a woman and because this is a woman run industry and so there are these you know old white males that uh just have these kind of archaic views of how business is done but I'm just naive enough I guess or just like I said kind of live in this bubble and pretend it doesn't exist and I just don't let it affect me I have said the exact same thing as Laura is that I I feel bad CU for many many years I was full-on living in a bubble and I had no idea that there were problems and once I started cluing in I felt really guilty and like wow was I living in a bubble um but it was to my advantage and so what burst your bubble we started in 2000s we've been around 20 years and in the early years I had I just thought oh yeah this is awesome everybody you know all women start companies and run them and grow them isn't it great and particularly in the high-tech world and so but once we started getting more known probably um 10 years ago I started getting calls to sort of graduating them more frequently of you know hey wow you guys are doing great and you know what's it like to be a woman's CEO in a high-tech world when you're the only one and or or first of off they would say you know what's it like to be a woman CEO in a high-tech world and I would say oh it's really great you know like why are you asking and they would say well you're the only one and i' be like well I am not the only one because I just had lunch with several others and I would reel off their names and I said and when you're done talking to me you should call them up cuz they're really great and so part of it I think part of it is an awareness and I really believe that you look for evidence to support your beliefs and if people believe that women aren't running companies that's all they're going to see they're going to see all the cases where men are running companies and they won't even notice if a woman walks right on by running a company so so my goal in talking to these people then and and I actually created a whole nonprofit event series around it because I became so obsessed obsessed with my with my years of um you know wearing covers on my eyes and not understanding what was really happening is I became obsessed with pointing out where it's happening it's like if you say look at all the red cars today all of a sudden all you're going to see is red cars and so uh it's the same idea and so what I wanted to do is start saying hey there's actually a lot of women running businesses successfully here's some examples now start looking for your own and then all of a sudden everybody will start see see them we're already doing it and so that's been my Approach and I like Laura have been very fortunate in that um you know before I started realizing what was going on it was way too late like nothing's going to knock me down and you know I I actually see it as a challenge if I and my favorite thing to do is sit on an airplane and if I get an pardon my father is an old white guy who I love and they are my biggest supporters so you should know that I have many many men who support me personally and lots of other women and but it's my favorite thing when you get an old white guy and we sit down at an airplane and and I look fairly young as well and so is to by the end of the flight if I've convinced them that women can do everything then then my job is done Karen I think all three of you have had the experience of talking to uh potential investors but I think you probably have been uh more aggressive and ambitious about reaching out and considering that possible option only recently it's not in my blood well in the last year or two what what was that experience like for you because because that is where this issue tends to come up the most I'll tell you it it was there a little bit and like I said because because it's way too late to get under my skin I to just see that as a challenge and I tell you I there was one there was one guy who I read the riot act to because I I said to him I will not do business with you if you're going to talk to me in that kind of way and I hung up the phone and um and that was it what kind of way was he talking to you uh patronizing I don't look for this so I don't I don't see it very often but it was my belief that he was talking to me like that because I was a woman um and based on past experience with him um and like I said I don't I don't see this very often because I'm generally not looking for it but in this case it was untolerable I was just not going to tolerate it so well but that does not happen very often to me yeah and but I think Karen you hit on something um and said it really well in terms of we're too far you and I are too far along almost being 20 years into the business now that I'm you know as I'm thinking back through this when I was only in you know when I was at the three-year Mark or the five-year Mark and less than a million dollars I didn't go out you know I didn't I didn't spend a lot of time inter chasing you know with the old white men of the world if you will um and I'm married to an old white man I mean he's almost 50 so I'll call him old um but uh so my experience now I just have a lot more confidence because I can just tell people to f off you know I mean we have a decent sized business we've done pretty well so I my business is my confidence and I can ignore the other part like tell me I can't do this but I looks like I did yeah exactly Laura you started this business uh with your husband did you ever have the experience uh where people uh assume that he was the one who was in charge no no but that's because he's never been the public Fai I mean other than his mom um I think that she thinks I do nothing um so uh no but he's you know we're in the knitting industry so of course people are going to assume that it's me I mean the beauty business and people think my boyfriend is the owner all the time even when we doing press even when people defer to him all the time I'm like in when you're out for dinner or when so if we're anywhere but it's majority of the time if he is standing next to me and we're talking or the the business comes up um especially if he's in the salon with me they defer to him I've literally when I was doing the buildout of peril void I literally walked in and I was at this point I was like I'm I'm done trying to prove and explain to people that I'm the owner so the subcontractor came in and I said hi I said I'm here for the one o'clock appointment and the guy said okay could you let us know when the owner gets here and I said no oh absolutely that's what I'm I'm falling back on the conversation because my experience is very different and so he and did you just fire him on the spot it wasn't it was he was a sub so I just said okay I'll let you know so when it got to 110 and 115 he came up to me who are you I said I'm Dana and he said do you have any idea what I'm the owner I'm assuming that's your boss and I said I just I I'm staring at him and I said well how can I help you and he was you know he goes well I'm not sure you can these are things for the owner to look over I said again how can I help you and the fact that I'd already given him my name and I was done trying to convince or prove or show him you know you have a one o00 with Dana who was the owner but for some reason in quotes when I walked in he assumed I was the other Dana you know though that's what I was going to say is I never got that people thought my husband was the owner but everybody has always assumed my employees are the owners and that I just work there and that's still the case but yeah how does that happen um you know when I started I was 27 and I guess I looked probably more like I was 19 um because people thought I was the high school help uh and my employee was 65 so they always just assumed that she owned it and I was a high school help um and then that's somewhat understandable it you know it is and they and I you know you've seen how I dress I wear a t-shirt and shorts and I you know I look like I'm I I try to pretend I'm still in high school you know it's Dazed and Confused I'm Matthew mccon um so I don't dress professionally I don't have business cards so I walk out very casually and people are always usually typically very surprised so that doesn't really phase me because a little part of that actually Tad Dana's um using her example is I do a little bit of that on purpose because I want to see how people will treat me yes if they don't know who I am and if they treat me like crap then I don't want to work with them exactly um so I'm very I go to events like this I don't wear a name tag Lauren there's the underdog side of it that works in our favor I love it do it all the time tell me more even in my salon I had um another woman who at the time was my operations manager and you know she was white and they deferred to her and one lady got up and she came in and she overheard another person defer to her they said oh this is white owned and she was getting ready to walk out and we said no no no no no she's the owner so when I'm in my salon I I'll answer the phone I know I'm the owner every time I pay a bill so I don't need like I don't need everybody to know that I'm the owner and and and what's another a little anecdote is that I'm in you know Michigan so I lived here for years and I was here young and I had a bully who came in the salon and I was behind the desk a girl from college she was awful and she came into the salon and she said oh hi and I said Hi how are you she said oh you work here now and I said I do how can I help you and she you know I checked her in and then I left um she said oh is it the end of your shift I said it is I love it I said enjoy your Vis God love it so I left and she you know sauntered up to the front desk and she asked the girl at the front desk what is it like working with her you know then ask all these questions and my staff is under their breath laughing and she said you mean working for her she saidwhat do you mean and she said Dana she's the owner and so and and she was the lady was actually upset why didn't she tell me BL and so my staff called and told me what it was like after I left well why didn't Dana so the next time I saw it oh she was nothing but roses and friendly and you know and then I'm like Laura okay you've shown me who you are the first time I believe you um and and you just kind of like flying beneath the radar because it gives you an idea as to who these people people are when they think you're the receptionist versus the owner absolutely 100% you nailed it Karen with the underdog and I think this is such a great therapy session because I'm I'm realizing it's not that I haven't experienced this it's that I am narcissistic and arrogant enough to try to spin it so that I'm in control yeah I'm the one wow that's H well and I I actually I take secret pleasure in it too you know I love absolutely they see this company kicking butt and then you know if they find out it's me later on I think that's sort of fun it's awesome it's awesome 100% there's nothing more fun to me you know really especially the ones that treated you totally the help oh yeah yeah Dana we talked about this it's always the rugby and the basketball for me it's like the bottom line is at the end of the day let's go out to the basketball court and let's see what it looks like you know so don't pretend like you're smarter than I am don't pretend like you've got more power than me because when it comes right down to it you know yeah anyway this is good to know I'm not going to mess with Laura or Dana so yeah that's hilarious so the other issue that uh people talk about a lot is whether or not there's something of a confidence gap between um men entrepreneurs and women entrepreneurs oh you can't actually ask that question after the conversation we just had can you sure I can the the context it comes up in is explaining why there aren't more women-owned businesses that crack uh a million dollars in revenue and you get it leads to a discussion about uh well women just aren't as ambitious as men they maybe they don't have the confidence they don't fake it until they make it they don't push as hard for growth um and and I'm interested in this area because there's an aspect to this that rarely gets discussed which I think is is kind of important I think you know some of those men are who are pushing harder and more aggressively are making huge mistakes I it it's to some extent it's the the finance issue the Venture Capital issue um I'm not a big fan of venture capital so when we see the you know we always see those statistics about the percentage of venture capital that goes to women entrepreneurs and it's a tiny percentage and it's it's it's ridiculous uh but I also think you know venture capital in my opinion destroys as many businesses as it helps maybe more um so I'm sitting here thinking um yeah women have the same right to destroy their businesses that that men do and they should have access to venture capital but on the other hand uh that isn't necessarily the smartest way to to build a business and you know pushing crazily for growth isn't necessarily the the smartest way to run the business so w with all that in mind I'm curious how you guys think about that I think it's a social a societal thing and I'll expand by saying I had a um a fellow business owner she was very excited about expansion opening up a second and third location she got her funding everything was intact and then at the last minute she changed her mind and when I asked her I said hey what happened and I expected it to be you know what I just really looked at the workload and it was just going to be too much it was happening too fast no her response was my husband basically is not handling this growth well and if I do this I will lose my marriage that was her quote to me wait explain that yeah he was her I'm sorry to see your marriage go no no not at all because she was really upset about it and I want to make sure I'm clearly her husband was resentful of her success is that what you're saying to an extent what I what I'm saying is and I had this conversation again a couple days ago with another business owner some of the women are married to men who married them when they were the restaurant Chef not the restaurant owner The Nail Tech versus The Nail Tech business owner the Lash you know what I mean so they're okay when you're going to work every day putting on people's makeup doing people's nails but when you become the CEO or the leader or the owner and founder of something you there's a growth that these women have experienced I know I've experienced it and a these instances these husbands were not ready to stay married to that woman this is the young lady I talked to earlier this week she just opened a location her husband his needs are tertiary right they have kids and it's the business now he's tertiary because she has this booming business that requires her to be there more and she hasn't gotten to that point in her business where she has structured it to hand certain things off which is fine that's part of your growth but when you're asking about women and the confidence thing I think that can be an individually based thing based on your history and your baggage or whatever your growth in business can be lonely and some women may choose to not be lonely and keep the people around them that are more comfortable with them being the Nail Tech versus the CEO well that's depressing I'm so sorry no but I think that's very astute okay yeah um you know Doug and I you know we started the business together I mean I worked he still had a different job for a few years so um but we've had this conversation many many times um and it's so funny on the tertiary because Doug says that he's fifth you know he comes after my iPhone and know um so he comes there's Huck first right then the iPhone then the business you know then the two dogs and then comes Doug in our lives together knowing that we have another 50 years or whatever or guessing that we have another 50 years at this period in time we have to focus on those things and dedicate our time to those things and he said one of the smartest things that's really stuck with me in that our relationship between the two of us has never changed in 20 years what has changed is the outside world and what we're working on but the unit between us um is still there it's just that we're having to spend time on other things uh and so I feel for us like we're very very lucky that we're able to have a conversation and say okay we're not having date night this year it's just not I mean this is just not the year to do it like for us to build the life together that we want to build this is what needs our attention and are you good with that I mean we had to have this conversation with my son as well before this new acquisition we're like this is a family decision it means I'm going to be gone five days a week for you know months are we all good with that and Huck said yes I want new LEGOs you know so we've all got a vested interest and we all opted in Karen I I took your point before when you said you know I'm I'm clearly talking to three women who uh have confidence um and I also know that you are not someone who has shied away from trying to build your business uh ambitiously uh but you also talked to a lot of other uh women business owners do you think uh women in general tend to shy away from that kind of ambitious growth we used to have a problem where women weren't starting businesses um so the council for women and business produces a lot of data each year about research about women entrepreneurs and now the research is focused is showing that there are are few women there there are more women starting businesses but few of them are growing them so what I've sort of changed my messaging in a lot of my Outreach and when I'm speaking talking ment ing is to encourage women to grow their businesses so I I really try to highlight what I've done and and how I did it and really encourage women this is what it looks like it's no harder than starting a business in fact I think it's easier starting the business is the hard part you know again for me I didn't really have a lot of women business owners that I talked to honestly I mean I have a lot of friends who are leaders and companies or own own businesses just throughout my years of being in business but um to me I I try to I try not to differentiate man woman black white old young I don't care I just get inspiration from wherever I need it if there's something somebody that's doing something that I think is inspiring I don't care who or what it is I I try to find mentors in anybody and they may or may not even know me and most most of the time they don't it is really important particularly for girls to see their role models looking like them and I I'm not under valuing that at all and I think it's really important and we need more more of that but at the same time it doesn't mean you can't have mentors who don't look like you so I really have looked at other business owners who have grown their businesses and said hey why not me you know I take a lot of inspiration from Russell Wilson actually the Seahawks quarterback he's my hero I'm like yeah why not me let's go why is he your hero because he he has a whole Foundation the name of it is why not me and and the idea is somebody's got to do it you know why not me I'm why not and so I I think that about our all the time and look somebody's got to be the world's greatest ux firm why not us so you know I just can't find a good reason why not that's a great answer do any of you ever get tired of being the boss making decisions yes absolutely oh my God oh my goodness I don't think that's a woman or man thing is it or maybe it is I just had coffee this morning with a brand manager of a brand we carry and he said okay well where do you want to sit and I'm like David can you please just be my boss for like an hour just an hour like you just tell me where to sit and you tell me what to eat I would be so stoked yeah that's it that's it true I bet there is a male female thing a little bit there be interesting research project I think and to be fair I love the fact that I have the choice to sometimes not want to be the boss I mean I think if we're really going to dig deep am I do I ever not want to be the boss probably not you know I just happen to have the privilege and the choice to be able to say hey David boss me around but do I want that to be my life you're allowed to be tired one day you're allowed to feel like you've had enough yeah but but you were the boss to decide that you wanted to get bossed around that's the important thing yes I think that that's what I'm your decision yes it's the choice yeah so probably no I probably don't ever get being tired of being the boss I probably really desperately love it I don't get tired enough to not do it but there are days where honey what do you want for dinner not another Choice like you you decide where are we going you decide um and they found that people who make a lot of decisions have like a uniform in their clothing because it's one less decision they have to make today and it's isn't that what Obama said Obama said it Steve Jobs said it uh Mark zerber said it that there's you know Dr Dre we wear the same thing because it's just one less decision I have to make today and I think that's a version of just not wanting to be the boss I think being the boss is making decisions one of the things I'll tell you is um in in terms of being like within the company I have often said that I think because I'm a woman leader that I get less leeway to be mad oh yeah oh that's so inter interesting yeah if I'm having a rough day and I'm not my best self and I'm short or I get upset or mad about something or mad at somebody I think the the impact that has on others around me is far greater than if I were a man and that is something that I really believe and I think it's because well I think it might be because people want to give you permission to be upset and if they haven't given you permission to be upset it's jarring to them does that I'm not sure about that because these are people who have known me for a while but I you know I'm a if I freak out I don't think you hear that about Too Many Men leaders if they are if they are rightly upset about something and these are things that are legitimate it's not like crazy business this is you know the numbers aren't right or somebody's screwed up and and and there's really a problem you know I take that stuff seriously and and and part of it is you know for me part of my Persona is warm and caring and I think I think people expect that more from a woman that's what they like to have women in the room because they listen better you know it's known that they can be more warm and more caring and and this is why you need diversity right so we need an equal balanced room it's not all women and not all men you need balance so that we get all kinds of types of personalities moods temperaments these kind of things but but but I think people expect that more from me because they see it and then when they see the other side they're like oh that's not what we expect I don't have permission to be upset even as a leader I don't have permission what do you mean by that I just I just you know there's always these stereotypes that you know with women when you get when she gets upset it has nothing to do with about what just happened it's all the baggage that she's bringing with her it's probably a boyfriend argument or something and so I have found that and and and that's why I rarely do get upset because I don't want to do the work of being validated and I haven't gotten to a point where I don't care right because if I'm upset it's because something's not happening that I need to happen and I need you to care so it can get done right so I have found that it's easier to get upset when I have the permission of people who know that I'm upset when they agree that I should be upset when they don't agree um it can be dismissed and so much with the people that work with me you know there and I don't really get upset like that but when you're talking to a lender or if you're talking to somebody in your administrative or contract work when you're upset I feel like I need their permission and once they agree with me then we make the changes that we do but if they don't agree with me if they think even though it's it I'm rightly upset um it it just changes for me how do you deal with it how does that feel well like I said I I don't get upset and if I do I deal with it on my own I don't express it to them um and when I do express it it comes in in in the form of questions again trying to get you to see where this is a problem um and then they acknowledge it and they move on there is no ownership of it outside of acknowledging it where it's just different on my end um I've seen with women when men are upset with women they're not only supposed to acknowledge it they're supposed to own it and make it better and so I just yeah I don't I don't get upset outwardly if I do get upset not a lot makes me upset I want you to say like there's a couple times where I'm like you know what I totally would have said this differently I totally would have express myself differently if I felt I was in a space where me being upset was okay and not not okay because I you know I was blowing up for no reason it was obvious I should have been upset but because we just don't want to deal with that we don't want to look at that right now you know we're just well I think it's impressive that you can maintain your cool like that I have no but I mean honestly Karen look at me I have no choice I have to maintain my cool I don't I don't live in can you imagine I mean the complex of the angry black woman no and it's always illegitimize it's never validated people don't really want to hear you so you I have no choice but to find something to do with it so we can get something done I don't think anybody wants want to have anybody walking around being angry all the time so I think you I think you're far more effective if you can keep your cool so I think it's excellent that you able to do that and I wish that I could do it better all right I want to move on to uh another topic um as uh as I started last week every week I want to ask you uh a question that Laura actually suggested uh which is what's the worst thing that happened in your business this week Laura let me start with you since you suggested the question yeah thanks a lot what's the worst thing that happened in our business this week um I would say that the I am trying to figure out how to bring two teams together um that work in different states that have a lot of overlapping responsibilities and skills um so that's kind of a nebulous answer but um Team Dynamics and trying to figure out who does what um and try to introduce everybody and get everybody on the same page so there's just a lot of friction as we figure this out and I personally just think that it's just going to take time was there a particular problem that you can share with us um you know not pointing fingers but giving us a sense of where this is becoming an issue yeah um we have you know a couple of different websites and with one of the websites we are asking that any updates to the site be run through the other team for second eyes for a variety of reasons and some updates were made to the site without running it through anybody um and the the updates were not updates that we would have and I hate to use the word approve but they're updates that we would have liked to have discussed before they went up um and so once we found out they were up then we had a whole conversation about it and then you know of course like feelings get hurt and blah blah blah I hope the uh answer to this question is is never uh doing this podcast uh Dana how about you what's the worst thing that happened to your business this week no not at all um this is by far the slowest week of the year when you're looking year overy year so this has been a tough week and and we're counting down the hours to this impending snow storm here in Michigan um that's going to start tonight and go through Sunday morning morning which is always our busiest time the weekend so the hardest thing this week was watching those numbers man was tough what do you do during a slow week do you try to make use of it in some way um we scale down our staff we focus on training um we did a lot we get a lot of admin stuff caught up on but we're also just getting ready for when it gets busier and and some of the changes we want to make and stuff so there's it's productive but it's not Revenue gener gener ating directly Of course Karen how about you well Lauren I'm sad for you but I'm happy for me to report that nothing bad happened it was a great week I don't believe it nothing not even one thing I can't even make anything up really it it doesn't hurt that I'm actually not at work Le let's remind our our our listeners you're you're unsabbatical uh out of the office through the end of the month right I am in touch this week I actually work more than I have the entire sabatical because I'm getting ready to go back so we're working on my re-entry plan and I had a nice all day meeting with my chief culture officer on Monday sort of walking through my um my plan of attack and then I had a great all day or half a day meeting with my coo yesterday and same thing and and everything there there's nothing they couldn't even tell me anything bad that's going on at the office so um I'm I'm happy I'm super excited I go back week after next and I think I'm actually ready I got to have a little week in Mexico first though hey who invited her did you invite her Lauren good question yeah well you do you know a little bit of what happened to me last year that I deserve it come on yeah I know but you're still making me look bad all right so for uh last question I want to ask you about something that we uh an item that we covered in recently in the 21 hats morning report that I found kind of intriguing it's uh an Illinois they just uh legalized uh recreational use of cannabis and uh it seems to have thrown uh a lot of employers there um it's interesting there seems to be con some confusion in the sense that um recreational Cannabis is now legal but uh it it's also legal to to fire an employee who is using cannabis uh during work hours and uh there seems to be some confusion about that I'm curious about all of you has the change in laws had any impact on your businesses have you ever done drug testing would you ever do drug testing um how do each of you look at this maybe uh Laura why don't you go first you know it's funny that you say that because I think we just my general manager just told me that in Nevada um that they it is now illegal to fire an employee for having marijuana in their system um I'm I would assume that it's not legal for people to smoke pot or use cannabis during work hours in the same way that you're not supposed to drink alcohol or anything that's mind-altering during work hours right um but from a I'll tell you one thing um from a recruiting standpoint we got a lot of people who would love to move to Nevada and come work for us because it is legal um and when you're working with a bunch of creatives I'm not sure that that's a bad thing um but from a productivity standpoint and from a warehouse standpoint and from the other employees I it it doesn't affect us I mean if if it makes people's lives better you know on the weekend and that's what they choose to do instead of drinking and sounds great to me so I assume you you don't do any drug testing of employees are potential employees no we have great people though Dana how about you no drug testing at Perle boy um you know Michigan just legalized recreational marijuana so um and even before then I'm I'm with Laura you know what you do on your spare time is up to you um and if it's impairing your ability to work um that'll come out um and you know just by keeping up quality standards and whatever in the salon so we've had a couple of um employees who've come in smelling of marijuana and they've been sent home because in the beauty business nobody wants to smell that while you're doing their hair so um or we've asked them to go change and come back but you need to tell them about Edibles Dana right and well vaping is huge um here so but the policy at perly boy is just no consumption at all um I don't want anybody to get hurt we're using scissors sometimes Hot Hot Irons and such Ken in Washington it's been legal for a long time um we've had no problems and we only ever drug test when a client requires it and it wouldn't be requiring it of a specific person per se but it would be requiring that the team working on their project has to have been drug tested and it and it's probably there's probably some mechanical reason of something that we're doing that would be dangerous I I guess I'm not sure why they would require it that yeah that's kind of hard to imagine is it would this be employees who' be working on the client's uh premises or yes I see yeah and so it could just be that they have a strict policy and you know that has to trickle down to us so it's very rare though has that ever caused a problem for you no no problems you know Lauren can you ask this same question when William is on sure I'd be really interested to hear his answer as a pastor recruiting guy from Texas that's a great thought I will do as for today we are out of time my thanks to Karen Clark Cole my thanks to Dana White and my thanks to Laura Xander appreciate you taking the time yeah thank you have a great day thanks for listening everybody this episode was produced by Jess thubron founder of blank word Productions remember we started the 21 hats podcast to help business owners feel a little less isolated to let them know they aren't the only only ones fighting these battles if you got something out of this conversation please help us reach more people tell a friend subscribe and review us wherever you get your podcast follow us on Twitter at 21h hats and let me know if you have a question or a comment or a topic you'd like us to cover my email address is L Feldman 21h hats.com see you next time [Music]