1st Acquisition, 100% No Money Down Earn In E:46 Gia Cilento & Eric Gesinski Top M&A Entrepreneurs

OK. So, uh, welcome to the top M&A entrepreneurs. Uh, I got a couple of guests. They're in the same mastermind that I am. Uh, the first guest is Gia, uh, Cilento and Eric Kaynski. And we're both, we're all in the same uh mastermind epic, and uh they partnered up to buy a company and then work on a number of things, and that's what we're gonna talk about, just like I like first of all, why did you guys migrate towards each other and partner up? I mean, what drew you to G? What drew you to Eric? Um, Yeah, and, you know, but we, we got into the mastermind of the second cohort. So it was still kind of a little bit wild west-ish, I guess. Oh, just a epic too? Yeah. OK. Yeah. So, um, you know, and I'm, I like talking to new people, and I was networking and meeting people and Eric reached out or I reached out. I don't really remember, but I just remember when we first talked, we got on a Zoom together like much like this. And, and I just felt like, I think both of us felt, um, You know, a synergy and uh something. I was like, You know what, I, I don't know what it looks like, but I, I'd like to work with you on something. And it just kind of went from there. We kept talking and I mean that was like uh in the middle of the lockdown here in Michigan, it was pretty. Pretty severe lockdown. I don't know. Where you are, John. We're in Arizona and uh they say it's lockdown but uh COVID dies on impact in a 100 degree heat, so. So you guys just need to stay away from air conditioning. But yeah, I mean, that's where we started, you know, what was your experience there? Uh, yeah, for the experience there, it was something that it was an early epic, and we were both figuring out something new. It was a space that we hadn't explored yet. Uh, we will give credit to Roland for bringing us in and basically changing our mindset on a lot of things. Uh, but we both came from a similar background in some ways and very different in others. When we met with each other. We knew that both of us had a long way to go, and we thought this will be a little bit easier if we have somebody else that we can talk to and learn with. So it was a space that we could both help each other progress forward at a faster rate than we would be able to do individually, and that's one of the ways that it was very attractive, and we thought, let's go ahead and join up forces. I think we'll be able to help each other, keep each other accountable, and get everything moving at a faster pace than we would have been able to on our own. So that was a place that it was uh a great space and the interesting thing is, uh we didn't really have any other justification or qualification, we just liked each other and we said, OK, let's give it a shot. Uh, another interesting note that to date, we still have not actually met in person. I was just gonna ask that. Have you even met face to face yet? Not yet. We've been all virtual and it's something that has been coming up a year and a half I think is is the time period. Uh, yeah. Is it all or did it, is it uh Zoom or phone calls or texts or all of the above every way that we could sort of smoke signals, you know, we were, we've used everything that we, you know, you know. Well let me ask you, Eric, how was that like, do you, when you have a partner, do you recognize your deficits and say, hey, gee it's got those what I don't have, or, or is it just the like uh 1 times 1 is actually 10 versus 1 + 1 or It's, it's a combination of both. It's a one that I know I have my flaws and faults and spaces that I am not an expert at at all. So that's something that I am. Uh, looking for ways that I can get help and and some of the spaces I know Gia is much better than I am at it, so that's where I will ask her for that type of help. But in other areas we have some of the same backgrounds, so I know this is something that I might be able to do on my own, but if I get Gia's help, it's going to boost it even more forward because I'm sure she'll think of some things that I didn't consider. And be able to move it all forward. Yeah, what's that? What does that help you that he that he comes to you for? Um, I'm really good at at start creating relationships. Uh, I'm also creative and less technical. He's like very technical and he loves getting into the nitty gritty stuff. And for me, I'm like, like, let's, let's get the vision. Let me look at the big picture. And I use my hands a lot. Italian thing. It's an Italian thing, you know, what, you know, don't let, don't make me sit on my hands. I won't be able to tell you anything, um, but yeah, I mean, and I think we, we hand off. Pretty decently to each other and we, we, we've worked with each other long enough to know, you know, when we're in a meeting, um, We both know where to jump in. We don't often jump on top of each other anywhere. We kind of did at the beginning, we did, you know, working in that kind of situation out and now We know how to, to play off of each other and work with each other when we're talking to, you know, a prospective partner or perspective acquisition, um, owner, uh, and then we'll also Text back and forth to, you know, like, hey, why don't you, why don't we lead it this way, or, you know, so we're always communicating our communication. Skills, I think, are both really good. Yeah. And have you got to the point where you can say, Eric or Kia, you know, that's kind of a dumb idea and not the other person say, you know, not to be offended by that. I mean, in a way, in a sensitive way, let's say, yeah, let's probably not go that way. Yeah. Oh yeah, we do that all the time. So I have a big idea machine, so, uh, you know, you have to kind of Eric is like, all right, come on, come on back to Earth here. Let's, let's do one thing at a time. Yeah, I think between this type of communication, we have reached a point where we know each other well enough. There is a sense of safety and be able to communicate those types of things where we think, OK, maybe that won't be good, and usually if we go that space, it'll have a reasoning behind it and I think it might not be the best idea because this and this and this and this. So it's not just knocking it down, it's rationalizing and making sure that there's an understanding on why we think this would be a great idea or why we think this is a horrible idea. And I think we both uh respect each of our approaches and our uh knowledge on all of these spaces so that it works well. Yeah, I noticed how that uh magnetism happens in groups like this because, you know, I, you know, started working with Patch on something and, and it, I, I never said, hey, I wanna work with Patch. I just, that it seems like if I wanna meet my hero or go to my hero, I like, I'm afraid of my hero, you just you're magnetized towards this money we're like, well, that seems smooth, you know, and I'll just keep talking to him and it just happens naturally. Yeah. It's a space that we've met other people and there are some people that you connect with and some people you do not, but I think the more people that you can meet, the more people you start interacting with in the same space that you're trying to move in the same direction with, it can sometimes lead to great relationships business wise. Yeah, so how, how long did it take you guys to work together? I mean, start talking to each other and go, hey, you know what, we should work together and do a deal. Um, we, we formed our company in August of 2020, so we were in the, what was it April, we maybe met and started talking in May, so whatever number that is May, June, July, August. It didn't take too long. 34 months we decided, yeah, we started the company and But well, so what did you decide on, say, hey, we should go for this, our strengths, and these are the company acquisitions we should make. Like how, how did that outlining go and like, no, I don't wanna do that or I don't wanna do oil and gas or it was, it was something. No, I was gonna, I'm sure you're gonna say what I was. There are some things we don't want to get into categorically we knew at the beginning, you know, like growing or or firearms or pornography and things like that. We're both on the same page, um. Go ahead. Yeah, we were, we were sharing uh at the beginning what both of us wanted to move forward with. And so there was a bit of that of describing the things that we didn't want to get into, but a big part of it was talking about what our ultimate goals were and really at the time it was being able to get uh good at mergers and acquisitions, to be able to use the knowledge that we had acquired and to start practicing it. And moving forward with that so that we'd have some way to expand on what we had learned and really use it in a functional manner. So all of that was something that we both wanted to move forward with and we thought this is the same thing that we're trying to do both of us are ready to commit to it. We are in a place where we want to do as much as we can to take that step forward and that's why it went to a company that we said let's start a company, let's go ahead and commit completely to this and make it move. And that's how everything got started at that point you're in Canada, right? I'm not in Canada. I'm Canadian. I will say, I'm actually out of Oklahoma. Oh, you're out of Oklahoma. OK. I, that's cool. Um, so starting a company was an incorporation company or LLC? We've got a mix of, at the very beginning, it was something that we were debating on which way to go. It ended up being an actual corporation and we decided that's the way to go because we're using it more as a holding firm so that we can have all the entities from everything that we learned from Roland. To have all and some LLCs underneath it so that the structure is all protected and to make sure that there are ways that we can add on different companies without them risking each other, exposed to losses or troubles liability, yeah, yeah. Did you guys have any trouble naming the company? I mean, I love your website Gross scale exit. It's something that We got lucky. We were thinking about something like this, and when we looked up the domain, it was available. Oh my God, it's great. We grabbed it, yeah, yeah, and other things too, but so is that the goal to acquire, grow it. scale it and then exit at what, like 233 to 5 years or what? That's a great question. That's something that for everything that we're doing, our priority is to grow and scale companies. The exit is something that is, it's a profitable exit, it's the way that GA describes it, uh, and that's something that The exit can be any number of things. It can be us exiting and keeping everything leaving what we have given the company. They have it and can run forward with it. It can be the owner exiting to a higher level where they're no longer operating, but they're managing their above the business, and we help them with that. Or it could be a full exit where everybody, all of us are partial owners and we own the entire entity itself, and we pull out completely so that the full exit is something that everybody gets a big return on. There's any combination of that. We didn't have any direct outline on a specific way that everybody should fix it, but it's something that we are aiming towards and I will say that one of the things that we've gone forward and this might take us to another topic, but we've been doing a lot of education beyond Epic, so that's places that we've put a good chunk of money and time to make sure that we can fulfill all of the growing, scaling and exiting. And so for the growing scaling, everything we started with Roland and then we got into Abraham, and we've been spending a good chunk of money and time with him. Yeah, he's not, he's not on the side at any point. No, but if you got the best, I mean, that's he's up there, you know, I think it's just flowing out of his ears. I mean, like he can make $40,000 just like saying three things. Yeah, yeah, he's pretty spectacular, pretty brilliant. So it's, it's, we were in a, we started out in a kind of a mentorship program with him. More than a year ago now, so, um, and we. Uh, went through that program and then we just, uh, are, are continuing on, and we meet every, we see him and get to ask him questions once a month, and then we work with his team every week. And it's um It's another fire hose like all the time. So when he does something when he has a specialist, you know, a program like yesterday or the day before, what was it? It was just 4 hours. You know, sometimes it's 12 hours or 2. I mean, it's like, it's intense and and he's he's on you. He's like, if you make a commitment, you need to stick to it and if you don't stick to it, you're off my list, you know, really it is a waste of somebody's time if you. That's why when you pay for something, it has to sting because you pay. Even learning, you know, he models. It's just the way he is, and watching him work, hearing him, listening to him is, uh, is an education, aside from what he's presenting. Yeah. Yeah, I thought his courses a long time ago, the compendium stuff, long time ago. And I, I had no way to contact him for, you know, 20 years, but going through Roland's epic course, like, oh, OK, he shows up on a coach and call me if you have anything, and I had a deal, so I got to talk to him. I'm like, cool. That's great. It's something that Jay is one of the top, uh, I guess, experts, mentors, however you want to label him, and we are happy to be using his information for everything that we're doing because we're building our system based a lot on what he has done for his life, his career, and then beyond that we also went into the Harbor Club. We jumped in on that and went through the whole process. Jeremy. Yeah. And it's a different approach than Roland takes, uh, but there's a bit more that he talks about with the exit. And so that's something that's helped us quite a bit for our model and the financial engineering. I interviewed his partner Lang. Yeah, I saw that you did an interview with him, so I think, let me, let me take this as This first course that somehow you jumped into with Roland was great, but it opened up a whole new world of so many other ways to do it that not saying that Rolling course is bad, but if you really want good at it, you should have optionality. Yeah, breath, you know, that's Roland goes deep in one area, several areas. Jeremy goes deep in other areas, I mean. So. And I was, I was gonna say is, if anything, I would say Roland's course was too good. And it's because it was such an overflow of information and it is a mind shift. It's something that everything that we considered on how business can be done completely changed and that's what motivated us to partner up and start a business company. And it's what motivated us to go and find more information in that space. It started us down the pathway, and I will give Roland full credit for that because he was the one that gave us all the insights that we needed to be able to know there's this much more that can be done and we can do it. So it's something that it's, it's an excellent starting point and I just say that anybody that goes that way, if they're really serious about it, don't stop there. There's more that can be done. I'll tell you that kind of my experience, as you know, I do a lot of works work or work. On Sales Navigator. And when you look at, find somebody that's interested, they got a $3 million software business, and they say, hey, look, we could do this, this and this, you know, it could increase about top line 50% or 100%. It breaks their mind. Yeah. Because they just spent 7 years and, you know, 70 hours a week getting to 3 million. Yeah. Yes, and in a lot of cases it's, it's a hurdle because they don't believe it. Some will not believe it because I've already done all this work and I only made it this far. There's no way you could do that and you have to find out how you can cross those borders, but you really can, and it's a matter of figuring out how you can get that through to a believable point where they will trust that it can be done. And that's something that we have, honestly, we've struggled that a little bit on how we can get. So what do you mean you struggled? I know, and I'll, I'll tell you this because what I've learned from interviewing 46 different people with over 700 acquisitions and $50 billion of value, the people that have done it more, it's all about mindset. The people that have only one or two deals, it's strategy and tactics, and when you're up here, it's mindset. It is to me, it's always mindset, I mean, that's um. That's something I've worked on myself for years, and I've coached a lot of people on mindset, and I, I, it's just, that's all there is really. If you don't have that right, you're gonna struggle. I mean, you might make it, you might make it to a million, but most people don't. What is it like 10%? The numbers are small, let alone for 10 million, you know, we're breaking through the 10 million, so. To me, to me, everything is, it's all about mindset and you have to just, you've got to believe in yourself, you have to have confidence. You have to know where you lack and where you need to bring in um brilliance at the the who not how right and where are you uh where you maybe spinning your wheels or wasting your time doing something, some $10 an hour work or whatever, you know what I'm saying, so, um, but getting your, your head in the right place of where am I going. Not where do I not want to go? Where am I going? Where do I wanna go? Um, who do I need to bring in with me to make sure I get there? And uh that's, you know, there are other factors for mindset, you know, you've got to get over the stress and all those other things that might be pulling on your family. How do you, you know, there's no real such thing as balance, but Yeah, that's the thing it's partly subtraction too. I mean, I mean, I, I, I had this conversation with this guy that was in, uh, uh, uh, he's in a transfer agent for, you know, a large company and, you know, the SEC jumped on him because the two founders were bad and, you know, and every time I talk to him, it's like that is like the 1st 20 minutes of the conversation, and I go, man, look, you've got to cut that off. And to move on to the next base, the next deal. I, and I give him the, the example of Larry King, like, he killed the guy. I mean, then he wound up at the top of his field in boxing, King Productions and all that stuff. He had to let that go. So if I, if I just wallow in my, you know, my pity and my sorrow, and, uh, you know, what I've done wrong, I'll never go anywhere. Yeah, I, I'm just going to tell a little story. I did, uh, I failed at business before and it took a while, the last recession blew me out after my first acquisition, and which I didn't have all of the tools to do it right. And and I wallowed in that for a while. That was one of the reasons I, you know, I wrote about it and I, uh, and in my book, and it was just. I, I had a couple of friends who kicked me in the. In the butt, like you can't, you can't stay there, you have to come out of that and yeah. How do you get out of that? Um, one tool that somebody just popped into my head was like, you know what, if you need to bitch, set a limit, give yourself 60 seconds or 90 seconds and just get it all out. And then you've got to turn your head and your focus to where you want to go, and sometimes it, it's all you can do to just shift your focus. You just, but you have to do it, you have to shift your focus, and if you keep slipping out, you've got to keep bringing yourself back and, and that's the commitment you have to make to yourself. To to do that, to to keep bringing yourself back to where you want to go and not get stuck in that in that hamster wheel of where you went wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a big part of it. I think I agree with uh one of the points I made earlier is just being able to believe that it can happen. And one of the comments I've got a little while back that has stuck with me. It was about the things that you think about are what becomes your reality. And so if you are thinking about everything moving forward with the struggles that you're going to hit, with all the issues you're going to run into with the potential failures you're going to have, and that's what you focus on, it's going to make it come a lot more it's going to manifest. Right, it will. And it's because it's what you're focusing on. It's the things that you are subconsciously directing everything towards. If you can do that with the things that you want to accomplish that you're going to achieve, then it's going to make that a lot easier than otherwise. So I think that's a key point. That's the mind shift. That's the way that you have to change everything to be able to achieve what these before potentially unachievable goals were, they can be done. If, I mean, it's, it's very sappy and I believe in it, and it can happen type of a thing. But there, there is a reality. There's a science behind it that the subconscious does adjust your actions every day. And if you do not point yourself in the right direction, if you do not think about the things that you want to accomplish, and you think about the things that you don't want to have happen, it will affect which direction you go. I, I really believe in that. Yeah. What, what do you guys tell yourself when you see somebody else doing it faster or more? And do you see, I know we're humans, we say, oh my God, I got a little envy in that, but I can't focus on that. Yeah. I got one word. Yeah, what's that? My one word is how I want to see what they did. What are you doing? Yeah. Well, you know, that brings to mind, I'm there was that one, I don't remember his name, but there was one guy and when we were doing the mentorship with Jay, and he's still part of Jay's group, but He acquired like 6 or 8 businesses in a really short period of time and it was like, wow, what is he doing, and you know, I, I admit I was doing a bit of, um, you know. Why aren't you going faster? But you know, along the way, you know, over another couple of months, it came out, you know, we're having cash flow issues and we have to, you know, because I don't think he took the time to assimilate and have a proper system to bring those businesses online. In a, in a way that could he was sustainable. So not that I, I hope that came out sounding right you know, it was really inspirational to watch him do that, but it was also like sobering. To see, OK, that's why we're taking the time to one that's acquiring businesses, but that's not the whole game. Right, it's after. It's like, you know, what you can ask for the first date. What do you do then? You know, you go on the first date and then, you know, so it's kind of, do you remember that guy? I know, I know exactly who you're talking about. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but yeah, he was somebody that's actually operating in Asia and so there were a lot of businesses that he had acquired, but it was that it wasn't perfect. And to your point, John, it was something that a lot of us, when we hear a story like that, we're hearing the highlights of their entire story. We don't get to see behind the scenes, uh, often, and in a lot of cases, the behind the scenes is not that pretty. So it's one that even though it might sound amazing, there are a lot of cases where I know they're still hitting their own bumps. They've got their struggles. They're still learning and it's the same for us. We are on the process and figuring things out. Yeah, that probably should partner or partner with somebody that's good at operations and delivery. I mean, because he's a superstar at acquisitions. But you need a superstar operation superstar delivery. Yeah. That's it yeah that that takes us to and we've been seeing this reference multiple times, but it's Dan Sullivan. It's not how, where he talks about exactly who you need to find that does things better than you can. Don't waste your time on the things that you're not good at that. Remember that in the back of it like that's right. You're right. Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. He careful how to do it. Yeah, he got all the credit, but I think the other guy got mostly paid like uh at least 50%, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So let me, let me talk about the, the, so you guys were in Epic too. How long did it take and how much deal sourcing and you, how many deals did you go through before you found this this first deal? Uh, for us, Epic 2, we did talk to a lot of different people. It was one that we went through some of the ways that Roland recommended, and that was reach out, connect to the people that you're already connected with, to a point we used LinkedIn and just some of that outreach, and there were people there, but the funny thing is the one that was the most attractive to us was somebody that was a lot closer to us because they were also in epic. So that's how we ended up connecting with a prospect that way and uh we made our our connection with that. If you had more to add to that, yeah, I think there's a little more to this story. Yeah, you know, I mean, well, there's always more to the story. It's just, uh, no, I, I think you covered it. I mean, she was, you know, in our epic 2 with us or Epic one, I think. No, she was in 2. I think she was in 2, yeah. And she came in specifically to uh sell her business, which was, she, she went to M&A course seller business. Yeah, she's a smart lady. So I, I don't know if that's the right direction because like if I was trying to get the highest bidder, I want to go to an auction where there's a bunch of buyers that go crazy, don't go to an M&A course where I'm trying to get the best and lowest deal out. But you will find a lot of people that are eager to acquire businesses, so she'll have plenty of options. She, she herself had a lot of people that she was talking to and a variety of mix of them, and it ended up being us just because of personality. She liked the two of us enough that she wanted to move forward because she trusted us to be able to take that step. So what kind of business was it? What was it? Yes, yeah, and so it's one that the the software itself is a little bit older and normally it's something that I know Patch would crucify us for talking to any business that was that old, but no, no, no, I'm cool with that because they have a great niche that you can't, you can't get rid of. Yeah that's right. And and some really, really uh stable clients. It's an old boring market. Yeah, that's right, yeah, but they go, I mean, maybe usually 10 years ago they'd sell a software package and make their money all in one year or whatever it was. Now it's Sass, and they're all like that. Yes, yes, there are a lot like that. In this case, the market is one that is based on software, so it's been around since basically this particularau has been around since the beginning. And so it's one that just needed a little bit of tweaking here and there and we saw it as an opportunity and we said let's give it a try. It was our first. Uh, but it's one that has taught us a lot. We've learned so much from the whole process and from what the experience has been. Well, how big was the business? Like what and what the steel stack look like? I mean, what did you, what skills, like, was it rolling skills? Was it JAM skills, was it Jeremy Harmer style? Uh, well, this was before we even got in with Harbor or Jay actually we closed on this the month that we started Jay's mentorship, although it's not that we didn't look, you know, know anything about Jay or his processes beforehand, but Um, Yeah, it was, uh, we, I'm just actually I'm going to, I, I just got a copy again of, I'm still on Roland's mailing list. For for Epic, and he sent out a gift, yeah, for the channel he sent out a gift to everyone on the mailing list of the um the deal book that they made and our deal is in that book. Uh, yeah, so we used no money down, um, owner financed, we use their software, uh, we use a lot of Roland's um techniques and and and systems, uh, so a lot that we considered and we went through the different approaches we were fresh off of Epic. So all of the different pieces that Roland gives we were looking at reviewing and saying, OK, what can we use? What's a good fit, all of that. Mhm. Oh, but yeah, I did, I didn't mean to cut you off there, yeah. Oh no, that's OK. I mean, we were, we were both there, so. Yeah, so you got it. It was seller financing. Yeah, that 100%? 100%. Yeah, it's earning. So what did that look like? We did an asset buy too, so it was an asset. I'm just reading it, how did you guys do an asset purchase with a software company? because that's the IP IP. It's an IP. It's really what you're buying, you're buying the code. And then the the and the IP they like like trademarks and things like that or funded? No, it's it's something that there was no loan in this particular case. We went up and set up a separate entity and then did a transfer of all the assets into the entity based off of what the arrangement was so there was still partial ownership on her side, but we actually in this case, we got majority ownership. So it's one that we have the majority ownership in the new entity. And all the assets were moved to that entity, so the old one is for all purposes retired, but the new one is how we operated, and that's all where the operations are moving on the new entity, and it's something that's considered pure asset acquisition. So that's something that we hadn't, I mean it was a new concept that I didn't realize you could do that to buy a business before rolling, so I'll give you again. Yeah, so you, you get this, let me go back to the seller. Obviously, was it he or she? She, she, and she's been in the business for 21 years. She was always the owner of it. Yeah, she developed it. She's a developer. And why did she, obviously she wanted to sell, she joined the course, M&A course, so she she had a desire to sell, but what was the reason, what she wanted to just retire and go off. She's got a reason. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we went into that deeply because, um, because we were trained to, and because I find it interesting to find out what what people are about and what they want and um. She wanted to go into. Uh, surviving sustainability, yeah, but, but homesteading in a suburban area as opposed to going totally off grid in the woods, you know, someplace where, you know, you have to trek hundreds of miles to get to your next neighbor. She wants to do it in a suburban setting so she could be comfortable and still be sustainable and have a small footprint, and so she's she's doing becoming a master gardener. Um, and I think she kind of lost interest in the company a while ago anyway because she had gone off into other things and gotten really involved with digital marketer and she has some, some really strong marketing chops anyway, um, but she, she's looking to, uh, eventually roll back and as a side note, working with us for the last year on reconfiguring and building and testing the business has reinvigorated her love of it. And why doesn't have to be responsible for it. Yeah, I mean, she's got, she can do the fun parts, um, and still focus on, you know, the gardening course that she's taking now and uh figuring out all she lives in California near Silicon Valley. She actually grew up in that environment and, um, she's has an amazing backstory as a one of the first. Uh, developers of anything for the Internet and one of the first developers of, um, an online magazine for I I don't know if we're allowed to say that, but, uh, you know, she's she's just, she's a real pioneer in the whole she came, then this system was built the same year that Mailchimp was built, and they were neck and neck for. Uh, 10 years, 20, you know, quite a long time. Yeah. Oh, it's I didn't even know what it did, so it's an email system, right, we've expanded the product line, sorry, yeah, and it's an email system for what niche. So it's not specific to a niche. I mean, it is like Joe was talking about, it was similar to the male chimp model so that it really was for anybody who theoretically wanted to have any sort of auto response. So the distinction was that she built a system that can support large volume. And so that's where there's a difference that a lot of the small businesses don't have a large list and so it's a space where anybody that has a gigantic list she was able to support and be able to do a lot with that. So that's kind of the space where I was in. But yeah, she's the entrepreneur that she is, she's always looking to do something more with her, her abilities, her talents, and the space that she's very interested in going in is into that survivability, the uh basically growing of the produce and she's got a lot going on in her backyard right now. How did, how did your offer or deal stack help her do that with the earn out? It was one that when we went in, she saw that as an opportunity where there was a set amount of time that we were going to come in to take over the business completely. There would be a progress so that she was still helping us to get everything operating and as it's progressing, she's stepping away bit by bit and by the end of it she'll be completely out. She'll still be making whatever the agreement is that ends up being for her revenue and for any sort of return that she gets from that deal. But she'll have the freedom to do what she wants with her that she's going to now. Yeah, I want to make a note that the CEO of HubSpot, the founder of HubSpot, he's not on the org chart at all. He's a billionaire and he just kind of floats all over the company. Yeah, that's good to know, you know, nobody wants to be on, well, maybe I was gonna say nobody wants to be on the org chart, but You know, it's not our, it's not our goal to be on the org chart. We're we're looking, we really liked Roland's model of being above the business and, and just, you know, building those, adding, adding in and and acquiring and growing and that's the fun part you have to hire a CEO or somebody. We will be, yeah, yeah. So you can actively search for a CEO. Yes, we will be looking for basically any sort of sea levels that are needed for the business, not just this one, but anyone that we work with. It will be at that sort of operation and again pulling from Roland, it could be somebody that's already in the business, the existing owner or CEO as it is, may want to retire, may want to go off and Do something else, but there may be someone else inside of that business that would be eager to take the role. And so there could be an exchange that is organized where they could buy in and they could get that position and that level of equity for a price, and it helps with the purchase so that that's something that can go into the whole deal stack. Yeah. And back to the deal stack. So she went through the course. He's obviously familiar with Roland's 119 ways to do it. Did she design what she wanted out, or did you guys offer it? I mean, was it a kind of, like, she's very familiar with. Well, he didn't actually come up with all of those until much. Later, like 8 or 9. He had, um, I think I thought he had like 200 like 200 ways to um, but yeah, I mean, he had all those in hand and I think he added to them a little bit after, after our course and I know they, they worked on streamlining the course over time. Yeah, we got the full fire hose version of it because it was all the information just all at once being thrown at us and so I think it's been refined to this point where people can come in and choose how much of the fire hose they want to get. Um, and it's more scheduled, but at that time, it still was. I, I want to say it was close to the 200 mark on the different types of deals that can be arranged. And so we had a lot to choose from. She was aware of it, but it didn't mean that she wanted one specifically. She just, anything that we came at her with that we were throwing. Uh, the different suggestions as we were coming up with the offer, she was familiar with it. We didn't have to explain it to the same level we would to somebody that had never heard of an earning or an ear out. Yeah, yeah, and that's a, that's a different school, right? You got elementary school, middle school, high school, and then like. The language, yeah, the vocabulary and the language is having a common language set and we've talked to several people that we're working on partnerships with and deals with right now too where that the common language just makes such a difference. It makes a huge difference. So and it helped us in this instance too. Did she have a set, hey, I, I want my earnout to look like this. I want like, I, I don't know what it was specifically say I want $50,000 a month or something like that. That's what I need to work on my sustainability push. She didn't have a strong, strong one in place, but she had a basic structure of where she wanted it to be. And so it was one that we started at that point and then there was negotiations on where we ended up landing, but it wasn't something that she came in blind. She definitely had a direction that she wanted to go and where to take it. So it was, there was flexibility and that's what we were able to work with so that she had the awareness, like I was saying, of all the different deal stack options, but there was enough flexibility that we were able to modify it to make it fit for where we wanted to take it and still fit with what she was happy closing the deal on. Yeah, it worked for both sides. And one of the things that we were all Eric and I had talked about this when we were forming our business, you know, we have some common values that are important to us and that was, I think probably what attracted us to epic in the beginning to start with because we wanted something that was ethical, uh, fair, but we're both really focused on making sure that everyone gets taken care of. You know, um, not to our own detriment, but, you know, so that everything works out well for everybody. Everybody get what gets what they want, and that's um, it's still very important to us and that was. That was how we approached the deal. So we wanted to make sure that she was well taken care of, that we were well taken care of, and that it was mutually beneficial. Fair, fast and friendly to founders. Yeah, that's a good way to say. I love that. Uh, I, I heard that somewhere and I'm, I'm, you guys can use it too. Thank you. Yeah. So did the earnout change the cash flow any to where did it hurt it or did you guys take over and grow it real fast and it would just Uh, you know, didn't make any change. For as far as it affected her, it really didn't affect her much at all just because I like did it affect the business, yeah, or was she already getting her pay? Hey, you know what, you're making $200,000 a year. Just go home, you're gonna make 200,000, but you are only, you're not responsible for anything. It was a structure where she was still like I was describing for the operations she was helping us with, so it's a transitionary sort of process. And so at the beginning she still was doing a lot of the work and we've been slowly taking it over, but it was one that, yeah, she had compensation for it and it was enough where there wasn't really, she wasn't seeing a major difference in it. The only change that's happening for her is as the business grows, she starts seeing more return to her because of the deal structure. So it worked out pretty well for her and that sort of arrangement you guys have grown it? What did you, what have you done it? We've we've been working with it. We made some pivots with it to shift where it was originally at because in reality it was a business built by a programmer. So a lot of changes have had to have been made, and we've tested a few things here and there and it's been a learning process. So we have grown it some, but there are some places that we still are very eager to move forward and we have some specific plans in place. That are all, we always have plans in place for this, but we have a couple that we're excited about that are in the process of going forward with this. We want to start the year with to we feel will be a bit more of a, a big jump than we've seen previously because in the past. More of a gradual let's test some of this here, here, here, here and see what happens and we, we haven't had any of the big 2X3X results yet to be upfront, but it is something that we've seen results enough that we've learned what needs to happen, what needs to go in place here. And to us, this whole process from the beginning has been one of the most educational experiences that we could have asked for. So in a way we've paid for it, but it's something that uh I think it's gonna pay off in the long run, not just here, but for any acquisition we have going. When you say pay off or gee, are you saying, are you guys taking a salary or dividends or or profit on top, or? We're putting everything back in. We're putting everything back in because we want to, I mean, we want to succeed, we want it to grow. And um and we're OK with that right now. We're OK with putting everything back in, uh, you know, advertising, marketing, putting, and we've we've also applied a lot of what we've learned with from Jay and um testing and we've done some deep dives into the history and what, what use cases there have been so we've been able to create a couple of new product lines that new products to to make it a more robust. It's not just email marketing, it's, it's online forms, it's database, it's landing, you know, there's so it's a nice suite and we'll be adding more, we have more in line to, to launch over the next year, but acquire. And the acquire, yeah. I mean, there, we have a list of acquisitions we want to make and different tools we want to tuck in. So, um, you know, it's not something, uh, Like Eric said, what we saw exponential growth right away, but we've been positioning and testing and, and, um, creating new aspects to make sure that as we launch these next things over the next few months. And the rest of the year, we will be seeing exponential growth, and that's going to make a huge difference. Um it is it's, it's sometimes it's frustrating and hair pulling, but it's like, oh, OK, because if you know, one of my things is everything is a test. Even our first acquisition, even everything is a task. It was one of my mentors has always said that I think it's uh. Anyway, it doesn't matter who, but um. Yeah, Russell Bronson used to say that, uh, he goes like, you know, I used to think I am my gut I knew it'd work or my head I knew it work, but I was wrong so many times. I said, well, let's test it. Yeah, yeah, he's another one that's something that I am completely in line with that just because for me it's one that I, if I get frustrated people who think they know. The answer because whatever your opinion is, you don't decide the market decides. And so it's something that you have to put it in front of them and let them decide for you. That's the test. You figure all of that out. Um, but on the point you were talking about, as far as us getting like the revenue that we would see any big revenue coming from this, we have a direction that we want to take it, and we've already started exploring and finding operators, other people that we can work with that will be able to take the place of the existing owner effectively, and then they can take that sea level position. Once we have somebody that's in place to operate it, that point, I think we'll be happy at taking anything on top. And keeping until then everything is going back into the business. We want to keep it growing to a level where we can get to that point and maybe it's not the perfect way to do it, but as Geo was saying, everything is a test. We're learning through the whole process. We're seeing what works and I expect the next acquisition that we do from the first one to the next and the next view will all be a little bit different from uh step by step from the one before. Because we're learning every step of this way. It's now part of our lives. It's what we do and so we're aiming at the end of it all to be experts in this industry on a high level to be able to. Have anyone that comes to us get come out better than they started. Yeah, uh, go back to the wheelhouse, you know, that the Roland designs and that is your first acquisition one of the spokes, or was it the hub? Because you could say like there's two ways to look at that, right? I couldn't get that. I couldn't get the hub because there was nothing available or too high a price or whatever it was, so I get a spoke and then I work around that. And then are you trying to take this uh this spoke and create Wheelhouse around that, or are you still trying to go for getting the core product? You know, it can be part of our, uh, we're creating systems so that when we make an acquisition, we, we, we know exactly what to do and we have the kind of like patch, the infrastructure and the ecosystem to build up that business right away. Um, so with our SAS, it could be, it could be. Either the hub or the spoke, it can be the hub of its own, where we tuck in other businesses around it, and it can also be the spoke of the greater gross scale exit company entity of being part of the system, the ecosystem that builds everything as we acquire. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah, that's something that for its own looking at it from itself, it is its own hub. There will be spokes added to it. That is part of it for sure. And when we came into it, that's what our perspective was. But the long term goal is that our main entity at the beginning, at the center of everything. it's the solar system model where everything is around the sun and so we have that. This acquisition is just one of the pieces that will add to it. We're going to be using the resources that are built within it for assisting any of the other acquisitions that we have, and it will be a benefit to other businesses that we work with. We are aiming to do the same with any of the acquisitions that we have. Uh, on some level. There may be some exceptions where it doesn't fit into that big, big wheel, but in a lot of cases, we are specifically looking for the ones that will fit there. Yeah, I, I had a great conversation with uh uh Trish over at Tenmark Capital, and, you know, they've only made actually 7 acquisitions of platform companies, but 30 total, and the, the other 23 were, you know, taking the plat one of the platform companies and uh buying around this, you know, the solar system around them. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. It's it's, I mean, it's the way to do it, you know. How many offers do you guys have offers out there for companies right now? I mean, love to get the next deal at the same terms. This one came in in, but, but now you've got a lot more leverage just go to a bank and say, or an investor and say, hey, I got a cash flow company. Mhm. Raising money for the next one. Yeah but at the same time, we are still keeping with, but I'd say both Jeremy and Roland, where we don't want to just go ahead and use that to say, OK, we've got plenty of cash to dump into any investment we have. I still am a big fan of the no money out of pocket approach just because there is a skill in being able to do that. And so a lot of what we've been doing is trying to find what are the ways we can do those types of acquisitions. So right now we have a lot of of um Our current deals are, we're taking one at a time. We have a stack that we're going through right now that we have connections to, and we know that they are viable, but it's a matter of just taking one at a time and seeing what works with them. So that's one that we're excited about moving forward with. I think the goal is by the end of the year we want to be at the level where we're doing at least one acquisition a month. One acquisition. How many have you made now? Up to this point, we've got the one solid that's gone all the way through. Aside from that, it's been asset acquisitions. It's not the company. So what kind of assets and that. Yeah, we did go into a couple that didn't, they weren't happy endings, that type of thing. But uh no, aside from that, it's been just connecting with the different people who have the different resources that we've been interested in um it's the type of thing where you they have a good list and we're just doing small things like that where we're going and finding out how can we connect with these people. I know, I can tell you the story didn't work out. I helped the guy acquire a $7 million company and he gave me. $500,000 in shares or 500,000 shares of his company of OTC company, it was worth $1 at the time. It was a restricted stock. Now it's worth 2 cents. So yeah deals that did not work out do not. OTC stuff, yeah, yeah, that's a learning experience, I am sure. Yeah, just don't do, I, I should just, you know, uh. Yeah, standard finder's fee. Yeah, yeah. Do you guys do any of those? I mean, people are people coming to you and doing consulting for equity, I'll charge you $20,000 for 4 hours of work or something. We, we, we like the, the CFE model, actually, we're working with um uh someone else in the In the community to to put together using the CFE model, but to put together a deal flow system. So, um, I don't mind the the see the consulting for equity model as long as it makes sense, I, I. We've looked at because Jay is very, very big on joint ventures and partnerships and he's just come in and I'll take equity or cash flow profit sharing, you know, there are, there are problems with that sometimes, um, and you know we we've tried different. We've looked into, I guess, and researched different aspects and what might work best for us, and we both like the the CFE model the best, uh, yeah, we, we tear things if somebody doesn't isn't into that, we can do profit sharing or we can do straight fee. But it's not really, I mean, we really like the acquisition idea, so, or, you know, holding kind of like um Adam's model and, and a lot of people just let's have a nice amount of equity in a, in a nice uh uh expansive. Ecosystem of companies that bring in, you know, Yeah, you do 5 of those a year. I mean, that's pretty. Yeah, hey guys, it's 11:28. We've been on the Zoom call for an hour right now and I really greatly appreciate that. I, I, I have one ask, like, let's do this in 1 year to see where you're at. That would be great. I think that'd be fun. Yeah. I'd like to that idea and I said, well, let's check back in, you know, and I started with Patch, I started with Marty and I said, let's check back in in a year and see how everybody's doing, what's changed, what they learned. That's a great idea. Yeah, I know this year I am anticipating a lot of changes happening for us, so it should be very interesting to see what the difference is in the conversation we have in a year. Absolutely, yeah, I'm on board with that, and I'm sure we'll see you around, you know, we'll see you in uh Patch's call and. Uh, I'm, I'm gonna jump on more calls with you anyway that you have on, uh, that you have on LinkedIn and. Uh, I got, uh, uh, it's double the last time the event, um, 213 people reserved last time, 420 have reserved now. That's right. Like when you said earlier, the market decides what they want, you know, you gotta have hungry starving students. You can't just throw stuff out there that you think they want. That's right, yeah, but if you're getting a response and they're saying, yeah, give me more, then you've got something that you can and keep on going with. Yeah, well, good guys, I wanna appreciate the time you spent with me today, Gia. Thank you so much, Eric. Thank you so much, top M&A entrepreneurs. Thank you. Let me let us know if you need any help from us. All right, we'll talk soon. See you soon. OK.