Involved in 7 Acquisitions - (9 Figures) Integration, E:49 Jack Stack Top M&A Entrepreneurs

That doesn't make any difference. This meeting is being recorded. Got it. Well, thanks for joining us. To M&A entrepreneurs today. I have a guest, John Jack Stack. So the curious thing is, uh, I met John Stack on LinkedIn. He goes by the name of Jack, which is my son's name, Stack, his last name, which is uh what I call my company Stack Acquisitions, and he went to NAU Northern Arizona University, where I did. So there's some connection there that I wanted to reach out to him. So welcome, John Jack Stack. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so you were, and we talked about this before, you were involved in 7. Or acquisitions and one you actually led, right? Yes, yeah. And how did you get into this role? Now do tell me about this. It was more about the integration of these companies to other companies. How did you get in this role? Well, I, so I've always been kind of a technical leader and then I transitioned to management, um, and then As part of that transition, you end up looking at at the technology and and fit. And therefore, um, started getting more involved on on teams to do that kind of thing, and then um You know, I, I guess my one of my largest roles uh for doing assimilation turned out being more or less a roll up of all my past experience in IT. And uh because of that and because of my degree and, and running businesses, you know, I, I tend to have a blended background that, that was well suited for um all the touch points for an assimilation. Yeah, so let me ask you about this integration. Um, now, the CEO is leading the acquisitions, he acquired the company, did I, I, I'm just curious, is, did he have input on your side? Is this a good fit, not a good fit, kind of like a James T. Kirk asking everybody in his. Yeah, so, so I, you know, let's, let's start back a little bit before that, you know, when you're looking at an organization to buy them, you're looking for fit and finish, you're looking at, um, synergies if it's a merger, um, and you're looking for opportunities. And those opportunities typically are defined as synergies, well stated, uh, with some degree of analysis on On what are the go-gets to achieve those uh synergies, um, and That then um drives what due diligence, you know, the, the due diligence part. And so I've been involved in the due diligence um from the outside, uh, ran due diligence projects, um, not only from a technological point of view, um, but from a business point of view as well. And so those synergies are the key drivers for, for assimilation. As well as, you know, you identifying how you're gonna make money out of the deal. So how did you say you come up with some kind of template and say this is in the synergy level, this is outside, or and there's a gray area that, you know, we can, we can work with. How do you decide that? So, so that's the tough part, right? I mean, you really have to go, OK, how are we going to accomplish this, or, or what is the synergy, you know, whether or not it's a new market, um. Whether or not there's uh customers um that you want to have that that target company actually is already doing business with, um, so it really depends on the key drivers, you know, on, on. That that end up driving the due diligence once again, you know, it's, it's like, why are you getting this company? Why are you even looking at them? Well, is it a market? Is it um customers? Is there uh uh industry movement, you know, as an example that that this, you know, the company you're looking at. is hoping or moving into and, you know, so it's kind of very similar I guess to a uh buy versus lease model, right? When, when, uh, you know, you're looking at, you know, do I buy this or do I lease it, you know, a lease would probably be, uh, um, you know, something that you're going to, you've seen an opportunity and you're gonna just move into it, whereas a buy would be an acquisition. So it it it's very, it's got a very similar ring to it in terms of uh Uh, how it happens and how you look at it. At least that's my point of view. Once you get there, then, you know, you've, you start identifying, well, you know, can we make 15-20% in sales and what's it, how's that turned out to, what's that turned out to in a DCF, right? You know, you know, so you end up discounting your cash flows back to see whether or not you're, you're going to pay for that acquisition. Um, everything needs to be paid for, right? And, and then You know, once you, you have a sales price, you know, you know, I, I listened to one of the podcasts that you had where, you know, typically there's, you know, you're doing it as a gross multiplier of sales, or you're looking at net income and some kind of multiplier there. And then you kind of figure out in your DCF whether or not you can take advantage of all those synergies, right? Um, in order to build up to make it worthwhile in terms of what your capital investment is. Yeah. So when, when you guys, uh, was trying to understand, was it a lot of different CEOs that you're working for, or was it one CEO with 6 acquisitions? How did that work? Uh, one, I, I called one acquisition. Um, it, it actually was 9 separate operating facilities, um, and they each, each had a different line of business. That was, uh, one I did from 2015 through 2018 with Maggot, uh, Engineering and, um, in the UK, and they had purchased, um, nine plants from Cobham. Which was a direct competitor. Um, you may note in the news that, uh, Maggot's being purchased by Parker Hanifin for billions of dollars. Uh, the Mega folks really ended up, uh, they got a nice little, or they're getting a nice little bump in their, uh, stock price from that. And I think a lot of that driver was around the Cobham acquisitions as well as them. Hiring um the former president of Rolls-Royce. So with that particular um uh acquisition, I was over the technology portion of it and the assimilation team um basically reported to the board of directors. So the, the lead of that project reported directly to the board of directors and then he had a a team of uh. Uh, multidisciplinary folks beneath them. I was responsible for all the technology, the entire technology footprint in all of the plants, um, that was from CNC machines all the way to to email, um, and all the applications and, and the blending and the integration of those into Maggot's system. It took 3 years to do 9 plans. So, um, yeah, and uh a lot of travel, uh, everywhere. I, I had a core team, um there that that worked for me that was familiar with the process. Um, there was limited due diligence in that in terms of Uh, integration due diligence, let me, let me ask you about that. Why was there a due diligence, especially with something with such a large acquisition price and not. Yeah, so, so the due diligence was done on the business side, um, you know, in terms of market and, uh, uh, Mega was good at acquiring companies, um, to, as a growth strategy. And so they would go into new markets or do product line infill, um, with, with a player or two when they acquired. Um, Cobham, uh, at the time, uh, was concerned on whether or not the deal would go through whatsoever, and so there was very limited information coming their way, um, until the ink, you know, ink had been placed on paper. And so, so it was kind of like waiting, waiting, waiting for the attorneys, and that took about 4 months and once And uh the first The first, uh, plants that we ended up getting happened the day before Thanksgiving. We did the male integration on on that um on Thanksgiving Day. So, uh, we were waiting, we, we had done all the due diligence we could. We had moved some data that they allowed once, once the lawyers were confident that um the deal was going to close. Uh, but then they, but then they stopped. We never visited one of the plants until, um, uh, the deal was consummated. Um, at that point, then there was a service level agreement from Cobham. Uh, on the backside, because systems were being migrated and they were having to maintain those systems before they were, uh, transferred over to make its control. Hold on one second, let me pause you one second. This meeting is being recorded. All right, so tell me, how did you get involved in that and you're the DD guy. So what, what does that look like? Well, so, So when you're doing any deal, you know, you have the synergies, you know, I'm backing up just a little bit. You've got the synergies, you've got the business objectives, great, OK, but you still have to understand whether or not the organization you're buying has the capability of delivering on those synergies. And that's where the due diligence comes in. You want to look at systems. You want to go, you know, what's their HR look like? What's their sales price process look like? What's their marketing like? How do they actually market? You know, are their customers happy with them? You know, that, you know, when you're buying a company, there's no difference whether or not you're merging or just simply buying a company if you don't know. All everything you can, A to Z, every every single business aspect that you can think of. If you don't know that going in, you might be in for some surprises. Surprises are bad because typically they cost money, right? And they cost time because the surprise to fix, fix the problem, uh, it takes a little bit of time and it pushes your, you know, your dates back on your synergies or whatever you're looking at. Um, as the key drivers on buying that company. So due diligence to me is one of the most important components and not, not just from an assimilation point of view, but from, uh, you know, you are gonna You, you know, you have perfect, the perfect right to be a just a pain in the ass, hopefully not a pain in the ass, but, but just a pain in the ass to get the answers you need to be comfortable that you're going to, that the purchase is going to be the way you intend it to be and whether or not it, you know, and whether or not it accomplishes the goals that you have and the drivers for you buying it. So due diligence is critical, you know, cash on hand, you know, accounts receivable, all the business basics, all of it has to be in place, or at least you have to understand it, identify the things that you can improve, um, identify, you know, what kind of waste you can get rid of, uh, all of those kinds of things are, are what make acquisitions and mergers. And if you, you identify those early on, um, and then start getting into the details, then you can start building a project around them for those various things that you know are gonna either make you money or cost you money. How do you remove the emotion because you want to buy a company, it's a couple $100 million.09 plans, and it goes, oh, this is going to add life changing wealth and stature to my record, but You know, if you look at every area, OK, email is pretty easy. We'll just get everybody change over email. Oh, so marketing, it's not, you know, it's, it's, it's not bad, uh, you know, cost of acquisition of this, so it's neutral, and maybe, you know, in the accounting department, oh there's duplication, we're just bringing our people. How do you like if there's a red flag. It's a deal killer or kind of examples like that. OK, uh, you, first of all, if it's a red flag, let's say what, you know, determine whether or not there's emotion. OK, so you started with emotion, and a red flag to me isn't an emotional thing, um, you know, it's really kind of cut and dried. What are we gonna do about this? Um, it's not about this is a showstopper unless until it is a showstopper, right? Meaning, meaning you're not, you know, just because there's a deficiency, just because there's, you know, something doesn't work at the target. It doesn't mean that it's a deal killer. It means that, you know, if you're still interested in them and and and the red flag is not cost prohibitive to the deal, then, you know, you, you start getting an idea. On how to work it out. And the best thing I can say culturally is, you know, bringing that up with the target and saying, You know, have you, have you thought about this? This has been a problem for you, um, or this is a problem. What, what are you doing about it? What, what do you intend on doing about it? You know, it depends on the nature of the deal. I mean, if you're leaving management in place, you're gonna go, you know, you know that this problem exists. What have you tried? And it might take some different thinking and you coming in and saying, no, I, I disagree with what you have tried. Um, you're going to have to do it this way, OK? So removing emotion is a key component, you know, and that's, that's not only with, with M&A, but that's just getting things done in general. You, you know, you remove all the fear and certainty and doubt whenever you can, um, you know, and, uh, change management is a key component, uh, during. You know, purchases and assimilations. How, how do you deal with the change management? Those red flags should feed into the change management process when you're buying it, when you're buying a company, you know, because there are going to be changes. You try very hard to remove as much fudd as possible, because flood affects profitability, it affects productivity, uh, because people are uncertain. And, you know, when you buy a company, you don't want everybody to leave, you know, the, the second you buy them, you know, you don't want, you want to retain employees for as long as you can until you know whether or not they're, you know, suited for the position. And so you remove as much flood as possible and, and you go, we're gonna have to figure that out. You know, state what you don't know. We're gonna have to figure that out. We, we don't know yet. How do you make that, those connections synopsis, uh, uh, you know, because if you don't want to lose the people, you kind of have to bring them in sooner or later to let them know what's going on. Not a shock. That, hey, gosh, we're just, uh, we've got some new overlords for the United States. Uh oh, I'm out, you know, our cultures are a lot too much different. Um, well, first thing is, you know, On, on the smaller ones, you, you try to pull everyone in um as quickly as possible. You know, I, I, uh, when I joined IBM years ago, I, I, I had a methodology and it worked pretty well. I, I'd bring everybody. I brought everybody in right away and we went for a walk. Every single employee that worked for me, we went for a walk and we just, you know, I'd ask some very basic things like You know, why, why, why do you stay at IBM? What do you like about it, you know. And I'll tell you a short story, which is pretty funny. One of the guys that, you know, automatically put a target on his back. Um, what came out of his mouth when he, when I asked him that was he told me that it was safe. And I'm like, safe, what do you mean? He goes, well, I've had 7 managers and, and no matter, you know, if I screw up or something, you know, I, I, I could care less because I know there's not going to be another manager behind him. It's like Oh, OK. Well, I'll have to keep an eye on you. And, and I told him that. I said, you know, well, and I'm not sure. I, I don't know how to take that, but, um, you know, I, you and I are gonna discuss this later because I, I, I don't want people feeling safe. I want people feeling happy, and I want them enjoying their jobs and safety isn't part of it. Um, so. So, but conversely, I mean that whole safe thing, you wanna kind of let people know, you know, we don't know what the future will bring. We're, you know, there's there's some unanswered questions. um, we're, you know, we're here to leverage, you know, the best aspects of this organization. We want you to be one of those best aspects. Um, and, uh, please stay and see how you like it, you know, and, you know, we're, we're not the thought police, therefore, if you have some good ideas about how, how things should happen or, or if you have questions, you know. Let us know what they are, so we can address them, you know, you get them to sign extended contracts with them, or do they, you know, they can quit at any time. So that depends on the situation, you know, with an acquisition, typically you've got a um retention contract with, with the executives and then that goes down to a certain level as an example, you know, you want all your key execs identified in the deal, of course, um, and those, you know, part and parcel to that typically is they have retention contracts or retention bonuses to keep them on board. Um, then we go down one level, you know, to. Not key employees, not those, the ones that are not identified in the contract, and then you have to take it on a case by case basis and sometimes you go, you know, for an entire department that's determined to be critical, you know, if you stay on for 6 months, you're going to get X number of dollars. And that, by the way, should factor into your assimilation budget or your purchase deal, you know, because there's cost after the fact, uh, once the once the deal is signed. Is there any, I know you handled the IT kind of technical part of integration and simulation. Was there any red flags that just like shenanigans that you've ever saw that somebody was trying to do? Well, obviously there was I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what do those look like? I mean, how do you do that? Yeah. Yeah, we, you know, after the fact on on one of the aerospace deals, not, not maggots, uh, another one that I was involved in, um. Uh, found out that 3 of the engineers were, um, Uh, selling. Um, Engineering secrets, engineering drawings to holy cow, no way, um, they were, how did they Get away with that. They didn't. I went, they went to jail, um, or I, I don't know. They, they, uh, they, uh, went to jail. Did the, let me, what do you, were they doing it before the acquisition or did they do it because they thought they were, uh, We don't, we don't know. Yeah, we don't know. Um. Uh, there have been cases where, um, An individual at one of the organizations was purposefully crashing the system within a two hour period midday. Um, yeah, uh. And it was a key system for that, for that location. Um, yeah, so there are some shenanigans, uh, definitely there are. Certain gray areas during due diligence where, you know, the Company being acquired can't disclose due to legal issues or lingering legal issues and typically they bond those as part of the deal or they say this is a carve out, we can't talk about it, um, yeah, but we're gonna carve out this value and they give the attorneys as much information as they can and and call it a day. So there are a lot of, there are a lot of moving pieces during the deal. Let me, let me go back to those uh employees that were stealing. Now, was that accounted for somehow say, hey, they put a financial number on the uh what was lost, and they said, Was there, was the seller responsible for that and the price somehow or was that some just absorbed in later? I, I can't talk to that specific deal, um, but I can talk in generalities. Um uh. Sometimes there's in in some of the larger acquisitions there is a contingency, OK, and those are put into a contingency and marked against the contingency post deal. Um, so that's, that's, is that a a time frame within 12 months or within Yeah, I mean they every single legal agreement always has a sunset on a sunset date on it, yeah. Yeah, and did you ever involved with one where it was unwound, they unwinded it to an acquisition? I've been in Two acquisitions where it, it, it fell apart, yeah. What were the reasons there? Uh, The first one was just that the organization was moving into a market and it was viewed as a an opportunity by the acquirer, and um the market didn't prove out. Um, and so, so there wasn't money at the end of the, at the end of the rainbow for that acquisition. Um, the second one was just let me, let me go to that. So they were, I don't know what the size was. Let's say it's a $10 million business and they're acquiring it and You know, it's a profitable business, but you bought it because you thought it, you could put your products through that channel too, or, or vice versa, or what? No, um, it was a technology purchase and the organization had, um, was entering a market and it turned out that that the driver behind the acquisition. Just really didn't have the cash flow that would give that yield. And so this company was making a pivot to a new market and That new market was enticing, but once the numbers were, once, once the numbers were checked against the potential of that market, it just didn't prove out to be true. There was a real market. Yeah, so they were in some kind of mature market that was probably, you know, going away at some point, you know, losing its profitability, trying to get into a new market. And say, hey, this is fantastic, we're gonna hit a new market. It's gonna be, you know, 3 times as large, but that didn't turn out to be true. Yeah, and uh then I experienced the same thing as well. Um, I was going to buy a technology and a couple of engineers that had um some technology in the 3D printing business. And, and I was, this was 2013. Um, 14 right in there. So is early, um. And I felt that they were going in the right direction, um, and I, I ended up sizing the market and You know, what they had was enticing and ended up sizing, sizing the market and it just didn't make financial sense to To get there and I had spent a lot of time. I mean, and I think that happens more often than not, you know, especially when you're looking at a company or you're looking at somebody very small and just, you know, even making a VC investment, you know, where you go, OK, or an angel investment in this case, and and that that company kind of was a different was me coming in as an angel. And running it kind of like one of your recent podcasts where you're the you're the money and the experience and they they've got something, um, but market sizing, my my my calculation on the market sizing wasn't worth it. Um, that's a, that's a tough call to make because, you know, you could have a great business, 10 to $25 million and it's moving along, but it's only growing at 5 to 8% a year, and You know, there's nothing you could do if you bought it. It's like, oh, if I came in and I did this to it, and this to it, you know, organically it's just not gonna grow because the market, there's no market need for actually I think I, there are a lot of PE guys that look for 5 to 8% and, and understand that, you know, they They're going to get to They're hoping for 10 or they're hoping for 15, and as a backstop to that, they're looking to uh either roll it into other companies that they've got or uh go in and cut costs, you know, or load it up with debt. You know, like a typical, uh, a, a frequent. PE move and uh go on down the road, right? I mean, I get that. I mean, you can say, hey, I got this $25 million dollar company, it's growing 5% per year, and organically, I'm just not gonna see any anymore. Maybe it's a regional thing, maybe it's whatever it is. It's, it's the limitations. But the only really way to go is to grow by another company doing $25 million at 8%. Now I have a $50 million company. Yeah, I, you know, and I think the other thing to look at is, you know, Looking at looking at companies, you know, they're limping along and you identify that there's just they're they're ripe for a change in management, OK? You know, they they're just getting too comfortable. It's like the old sales guys, you know, that have been someplace for too long and they're just taking their paycheck home and they're not. No new ideas. Swinging for the fences, right? You know, they some somewhere along the line they get comfortable and they're not swinging for the fences. You know, that that's uh that's more companies than than I If those companies could be easily identified, um. There'd be more companies for sale. There'd be more companies being acquired and uh assimilated. Well, I guess that's a, that's a, the key is to find somebody that's stagnant or exhausted and just keep asking them. It's a numbers game. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and, you know, I, you know, I know that there are a few folks down here in San Diego that that market primarily to Organizations that have had family management. I know, I know that's an attractive business for them. They look for family-owned businesses where, you know, it's questionable on whether or not the kids stay with the business and uh you know, they're not really expensive businesses, but, um, you know, they're just cash earners and you know, no, no real big changes as a result of coming with that, but um, you know. There's, there's all sorts of opportunities out there. Have you ever been involved with an acquisition that was in a distress situation and the person acquiring it was kind of a turnaround artist? Uh, uh. I, I think the lot. So I've done due diligence for some uh PE guys and uh um You know, that's their principal thinking usually. I, I think there are a lot of PE guys that look for distressed businesses. I can't say whether or not the ones I've worked with thought that they were distressed that, you know, that that word typically doesn't. Well, let's say it's not profitable. Yeah, there are a lot of, you know, and the employer goes, well, I can fix that. Yeah, there are a lot of, there are a lot of unprofitable or or stagnant businesses out there. I, I just don't think. Um, The term distressed is, is one that's thrown around a lot except by except by MBAs, um, people that write articles, right? Uh, I don't look at any business as as being distressed. I look at every business as an opportunity and I think that's um That's that's where you have to keep your head. Yeah. Well, do you have, let's say a rule book, operating procedures when you come in and say that this is the first thing I do. Like if you were Captain Sully and you lose two engines, you pull out the uh operating manual, and this is what you do. Well, so, quite certainly on the assimilation side, um, Uh, I've got a run book and um, I, there's not a lot of Those books out there, there's a, there's a tome by some former uh Pricewaterhouse Cooper employees. That's an old name, right? But they, they wrote a tome years ago on, on uh the role between, well, assimilation and due diligence and checklists and processes and stuff like that. Um, I I tend to look at the sales side first and what the market is, um. I've been I'd say marginally successful. I got involved in one a little while ago, um. Uh, That I ended up just turning them on to some VCs that I knew and I helped them through through getting funding. They weren't, they weren't a company. I liked them a lot. They just weren't a company I wanted to work with, um, as, as an employee or as a leader, um, and ended up just saying, listen, I This is not for me, but I want to help you, and I like you guys a lot and I like where you're going. I like your market. You need, you need money. Let's get you some money. And um in that regard, it was just cleaning up some things and, and, you know, that their VC pitch um was successful and the VCs. Uh, that they got in front of ended up really I don't know how they did this, but they really targeted the organization's deficiencies quite well, um, and out of the blue they targeted the deficiencies. I don't know how they and you didn't see this, or you just, I, I knew what they were, but you know, typically you don't disclose everything. You kind of go, we're working on this area, and you know, some of the or these areas and And these VCs came in and they They're, it's like they had an insider and we know they didn't, um. It was amazing and uh it it just turned out to be uh uh for their board. One of the one of the questions that they ended up having every quarter to make sure the company was overcoming the deficiency, so. Yeah, I mean, well, look at you, you picked the right VC. There's 1000 out there and you picked the right one that saw that. So good for you. Yeah, yeah, I, I was stunned. I was, I, and I pulled them aside afterwards, like, like. Are you reading people's minds? Jesus, where did that come from? And they're like, you know, it's just kind of random. I, I, I just, it was kind of a natural follow on question. It's like, wow, OK. What was, what was the, yeah, so what was the question that they asked that they got to the real. Uh, accounting controls, accounting, yeah, it was really. Yeah, they had They had uh Had somebody Working in a senior position that had taken some money from them. Well, that never helps, does it? And they identified that early on, or did they, how deep did they go and time go by before they go, Yeah, this is, we can fix this by taking that guy out. Uh, They They asked a fairly pointed question on because it was a they had a lot of cash moving through the business and they asked, well, how do you do, you know, what kind of controls do you have in place? And then they said, you know, you know, within the last 3 years, have you had any instances where somebody's taking money? And um Yeah, that's when they, they disclosed. And, and they hadn't really, in my opinion, corrected the situation, uh, fully. I had made some recommendations, um. And they, they hadn't taken him on yet. Asking the right questions. As well, they already knew the answer to it. They just had to ask the right questions. I don't, I don't think they were exploring. And let me, let me ask you, I don't have a lot of time left with you, but with the acquisitions that you were involved when they acquire, and they acquired companies, how did each one of those, did it increase shareholder value? For the ambassadors and shareholders, all of them, hm um. One was Unwound, which we, you asked me about. Um, it was all all about cultural fit and um it was unwound after probably about 6 or 8 months. And that that company, I was directly involved in that and uh that company ended up vaporizing 3 or 4 months later, uh just like totally bankrupt, just just going away. Yeah, yeah, they just, yeah, so they had, there was something else going on that we didn't really know and and those. Yeah, it, it turned out that their employees were not happy with the company. That we were acquiring and uh and so it's like black rifle trying to purchase Patagonia. It's not gonna work out. Right, right. And so that unwound. Um, and I got to ask you, what was the question again? Oh, it was about the uh acquisitions you're involved with and did increasing shareholder value. So already one of them was unwound and the company blew up. Yeah, um, I'd say. I'd say the IBM acquisition of the company I I put in front of them, um, You know, when you're dealing with a large technology company, I mean they orphan products or they assimilate products into their own product suite, and so, you know, in that regard, they just bought the technology and I think, you know, ended up integrating with the other people into the global organization. Yeah, so that's a very, yeah, well, well, that wasn't quite an aquare. It was actually a technology play. It just turned out to be. Um, cheap money on all sides, so, um, Uh, ROI, they're, yeah, the maggot one, obviously, since they're being acquired by Parker Hanifin three years later, that's a That's a pretty good one. yeah, they spent a lot of money. I mean, we're not talking about trivial assimilations, you know, it costs millions of dollars to integrate an assembly plant into an existing ecosystem of, of plants. Um, you know, when you see moves like that, it's, you know, it's a multi-year, multi-million dollar process, you know, that. You know, you just hope, I personally, I, I enjoyed the hell out of that. Um, you know, primarily because it is like What possible experience could I have that would allow me to up my game plus Um, leverage. Yeah, my 30 years of experience in in business and IT. You know, I, you can't have a better experience than that. And if you still enjoy the business and still like doing that kind of thing, there's, there is no, no. You were in the, as they say in the, yeah, I enjoyed the hell out of it. Yeah. What are you curious about now? I mean, what do you want, do you want to work in your buy your own businesses or be a a part of that or? You know, I, I I really love helping company. Um, helping companies do due diligence, try to understand the market, um, try to understand another business, see whether or not it's a suitable target, and, and kind of Identify um the life cycle, you know, so what I like is, I, you know, I, I've had this opportunity with a couple PEs, PE guys where, you know, they're going, we're looking at these guys, um, we want you to come in with us and And gain your viewpoint on whether or not it's a good buy. Um, and I've enjoyed doing that and you know, I don't wear an auditor's hat per se. It's just kind of like, well, tell me about this, you know, and, you know, there's a new thing happening. Workplaces are changing, you know, and a lot of organizations are having to, you know, like change their, their digital transformation process to accommodate. Um, differences in the way people buy. And that's, that's a big thing, and there are people starting to work in this, this, that arena. Large organizations and small are are having to deal with different buyer mentalities where new buyers are don't want, you know, um. To be lunched, you know, lunched and dined, you know, once a month, you know, they want to be provided information, enough information to make an affirmative purchase decision. So those kind of things are are things I'm thinking about with, with, with acquisitions, you know, and, and that's kind of pulling. Pulling in different, different experiences I've had and just going, OK, there are buyer behavior changes happening right now. There's worker behavior changes right now, um, you know, there's massive labor shortages everywhere. How are companies dealing with that? What are, what are they doing? To make their environment better, are they pawning up more more cash or are they doing creative things? I heard something interesting this week, as a matter of fact, where because of the increase in prices, they're, they're looking at um giving uh debit cards to employees that have a longer than 20 mile commute to work. OK, where, where the company is paying, paying for the increase in gas prices in order to keep, uh, you know, if they don't do that, it's right out of their paycheck. It's coming right out of their paycheck and, and some, some companies are, are recognizing that and I, I think that's a cool thing. So companies are getting creative and workplaces are changing and buyer behaviors are changing as a result, um, you know, they're, they're working from home, you know, it's like, OK, my customer went from being in this corporate office to working from home. Well, I can't, you know, drive 40 miles to their house and take them out for lunch, right? So how I, how am I going to tell them about the product, you know, what, what part of that is your digital strategy? And so I think there's some education for people that acquire companies to start thinking about, you know, it's not just we're buying this company, there's actually new business challenges coming as a result of Of these changes in COVID and, and even gas prices now. And so all of that's interesting to me. Jack, I wanna thank you very much for the time. I really appreciate sharing your knowledge and wisdom and how you did it with these 7 acquisitions and being a guest on top M&A entrepreneurs. So thank you so much, Jack. I really enjoyed it. Great questions. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Bye now.