$325,000 debt mess to client message, Corey Kupfer Attorney, Deal-Maker, Author E: 63 Top M&A

Computer Well, welcome to uh Top M&A Entrepreneurs. I got Corey Cupert here. Uh, Corey's got a book called Authentic Negotiating, and I gotta read this part. It is When the Great Recession hit, his revenue dropped 300, 400, 50k, and he ended up 325K in debt. Not counting lake house mortgages, and another 500 in the hole in terms of the value of the lake house mortgage, and he worked himself back, and we're gonna talk about that. Welcome, Corey Cuper from Authentic Negotiating. How you doing? I'm great, John. It's great to be with you in the audience. Yeah, so when I bought this book, we first, uh, I, I didn't get the book yet, and I read it, and you got an intro from Mr. Uh, Warren Rustin, who lives in my town, who all go to the same school we did, and we know all the Rustins. Oh, that's funny, that's funny. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, amazing guy. They, uh, yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's, uh, they got a big. Compound here over Tucson estates and bought it many, many, many years ago and built houses out there. So, uh, yeah, welcome. So let's talk about this, how you worked yourself back from this negotiating, helping other people to negotiations, and, uh, what that look like? Yeah. Yeah, you know, so one of the things I say in the book, and I, you know, when I, when I talk to people about this is, you know, I've been negotiating for professionally for, you know, 25, 30 years at that point. And, uh, and, you know, I handled some tough situations for other people, and I negotiated very big deals for other people. Uh, and, you know, I had negotiated some, you know, like house purchases, and car purchases for myself. But, you know, you really get tested when, you know, when it, when it's, when you're in a crucial situation that can affect your family on the verge of bankruptcy, you know, we had, uh, you know, like you mentioned, um, our revenue had gone down 30, 40, 50 grand a month. Uh, there were no deal, you know, we're deal lawyers and corporate lawyers during the Great Recession. Money dried up. There were no deals going on. My clients were going, you know, there were a number of clients who were going out of business or, or in business, but couldn't afford to, you know, pay me what they owed me. Uh, new business was down. I probably, like a lot of people during that time, didn't move as quickly as I could have to cut staff and things like that. So, you know, it was, it was the ultimate test, right? You know, it was it was it was uh significant, it affected me, and one of the things, you know, that I really talk about in the book and the approach is to, you know, get clarity and not let your emotions impact. You know, your decision making, right? To be able to, you know, to be able to stay in that place of, of CDE which I can talk about in a moment. But, you know, it's, you know, the real test came for me because it's easy to advise other people to do that when it's an emotional situation for them. But what about when it's really, you know, significantly affecting you and your life and your family, and where you're living or sleeping, or, you know, whether you can put money on, you know, food on the table, not to mention pay your employees. Or if there's a negative in that bank account versus a positive, like a big positive. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I had credits calling me every day, and, um, you know, and, and, and I had a fundamental, the first thing is I had a fundamental decision to make, right? Because many of my friends were saying, listen, you know, declare bankruptcy or short sale the house, or, you know, at least, uh, half of the debts with corporate debt, you know, we were, so at least put the, the, the firm into bankruptcy, even if you don't do it personally. And I remember I, I, I went away, uh, to, to my lake house that was uh on the water financially, uh, and, uh, took a weekend and just stepped back from it cause I was so in the weeds, just, just reacting, you know, and, um, and I said to myself, OK. Um, like, what is consistent with me, cause I, you know, I preach a lot about doing the inner work and making sure that, you know, we're in alignment, right, with our in the truth and getting clarity on that. And, and, uh, and I said, listen, I don't judge anybody else who's who's made the decision to declare bankruptcy or short sale a house or whatever, you know, cause I think that's best for their life and their family. I have no judgment on that. Uh, it just didn't align for me. You know, these were, these were obligations that I made, whether it was through my company or personally. Um, I'm, I'm a big believer in honoring my word, and, uh, I said, listen, I'm gonna figure out a way to pay every single one of these creditors back. Um, but of course, when they're all calling you for money now, it takes significant negotiation to tell them, trust me, you will get your money eventually, but I only have X amount, you know, to pay. Um, and, uh, you know, I mean, and it was fractions of what they were looking for. Yeah, yeah, but I, I, I do have to tell you a story that I kind of was in the same situation where my e-commerce business, and it was entirely my fault because I wasn't paying attention. Google moved from desktop to uh mobile and there's, you know, 14 spots where you can bid on uh selling like PPC to 4. And my cost per click went up 4X, and I just couldn't, you know, my cost of acquisition went crazy. So I had to call my creditors. I had to call my manufacturers, my suppliers, everybody's like, look, here's where I'm at. They came out, flew out and visited me, and I told the story, and they spent 48 hours with me, just like, hey, here's how we get out of it. Yep. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing about it, so many people, and I was having this at the other side at that time. You know, when those kind of tough situations come up, they avoid, they run, they hide, they're embarrassed, they're, you know, and, and that's the worst thing that you can do, right? Because, you know, I, I made, um, you know, so, so I made a commitment. I mean, I could talk a little bit about the, the whole process I went through. You know, on, on my CD process and this CPR that I created. But, uh, the bottom line is I made a commitment that I was gonna return every credit or phone call. I was gonna be open and honest with them. I was gonna reiterate my commitment that they would get paid. I was, I, I looked at my, I looked at where I was and I said, hey, this is the total I could pay every month. Like, that's all I can do and still be able to, you know, eat, you know, and, and, uh, you know, live, uh, you know, uh, what was became a most simpler life. Um, did anybody question you? It's like, well, man, you're still living in a 10 bedroom house and 3 Porsches, like, you know, and you go, no, no, that's the minimum I need, right? Yeah, no, well, I mean, part of the thing was I wasn't living in a 10 bedroom house and had 3 Porsches, but, uh, so it wasn't, you know, I, I mean, but, you know, listen, I did it, did have this lake house, but I had, you know, uh, you know, what I explained to them that. You know, it was that I owed more on it than it was worth, uh, you know, it, it had dropped significantly. I was trying to sell it. Um, and one of the biggest things I did is not just, you know, talk to them is even the ones who were claiming they wouldn't accept, you know, there was somebody who wanted, I remember, $18,000 the next day, and I said, I'll, I'll pay you $50 a month. I feel like when, when are they gonna get their $180,000 back? But I'll up it as I can. So they were like, that's not acceptable. But, you know, I started sending them the $50,000.50 dollars a month. Uh, right? The action to show that I was backing up my words. And listen, there are many other people who were running from them at that time, and they're gonna, you know, focus on those folks, and at least they get money from Comfort, right? So, um, you know, and it worked out. I ended up, I mean, the, you know, to jump to the end of the story, I ended up paying back every $1 I owed. It took me 4 years to do it. Uh, Uh, and I was able to do that and come back and be, you know, putting actually money in my, in my retirement account. And we came back, you know, stronger than ever, and, and thank God now, you know, whatever it is, uh, 12 years later, um, you know, since 2009, 2010 when it really hit me. Um, you know, 13 years later, um, you know, we're, you know, way beyond where we were back then. And the biggest thing is that I kept my reputation, I kept my relationships. In fact, they even strengthened those because Of the way that I chose to handle it versus just the way some other people chose to handle it again, I'm not judging others. I'm just saying this is what was right for me. So what was this plan? Let's tell us about this, this CD. It's like, oh, you, you're, here's where we're at, and here's where we we can do, can't do, here's where we're gonna go, and we're making adjustments on the way if it doesn't work out, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, the first thing I did was, was I, um, I did what I, what I trained my clients to do is, uh, you know, I, I, I focused on my fundamental framework, which I talk about in the authentic negotiating book, which is CDE and the C stands for clarity. And, you know, the first thing in any negotiation, whether it's a tough situation like that, whether it's a multi-million dollar deal, whether it's, you know, whatever, you name the negotiation. The first body of work, and it's amazing how often people skimp on this, you know, even people doing big deals, is getting clarity, you know, and, and there's two pieces of clarity. One piece is getting the external, uh, you know, doing the research, right? What is the market? What is the, you know, this, the people on the other side of the deal? What, you know, what are they interested in? What is, what evaluations, you know, if it's a, it's an M&A deal, for example. Um, but then what people really scu on is the internal body work. Like, what is it that I really want? What, what, like, you know, I talked a little bit about in that situation about looking at, OK, I have a number of options. What is in alignment for me at a very deep personal internal level. And for me it was to pay things back, not to declare bankruptcy, not to should sell the house. Getting that clarity put me on a particular path that would have been very different if if the clarity came up that I should just file bankruptcy, right? I would have gone to a bankruptcy lawyer, and I would have done that. So, getting that clarity is the first piece, um, and you can't design an effective negotiating strategy. I said this to my clients all the time. Unless you, we're really clear on what are our objectives, right? What's acceptable, what's not acceptable. What are you willing to do in a given situation? And that takes, listen, it, it's easy, especially, you know, I, I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, business owners, they're busy. It's easy to, to skimp on that. But if it's an important negotiation, uh, you know, digging down deep and getting that level of authority is the first crucial step. Yeah, I, I, I, I ask you about that because the clarity, a lot of my audience is buying businesses, acquiring businesses, acquisition entrepreneurs. So finding out what the guy on the other side or girl and the other lady on the other side wants, like, do they want to leave a legacy? They want to take care of their family? Do they want to take care of their, uh, partners, suppliers, employees? What is that? Yeah, yeah, it's Johnny, it's so crucial. I mean, listen, I've, I've worked on multi-million dollar M&A deals that, that, uh, are not, you know, that I remember one in particular. I've actually had two like this, but I remember one in particular where everything seemed great, the seller wanted to sell or buyer wanted to buy, they agree on price and terms and all this kind of stuff or whatever, and then for, you know, doing due diligence, everything was. smoothly until some, at some point, the deal started going sideways, and it wasn't logical. It was the, it was the seller was getting cold feet, right? And that happens sometimes, right? You know, it's, it was, it was his baby. He had built this up over years. You know, logically, it made sense for him to sell. He was starting to have some health issues. He wanted to spend more time traveling and all that kind of stuff. But when push came to shove, you know, he, he just started getting contracted, he want to give up his baby. And by going through a process to try to really, really, really figure out in that what was important to him, the bottom line is that by, by uh figuring that out and giving, leaving an office for him in the company space that he can come to at any time. Right? and giving him a title of chairman emeritus. That's what saved the deal. Who came up with the idea? How, how did you, what kind of questions did you ask? Like, what do you want? I mean, like somebody's not gonna say, well, I just want a fake office fake title. How do you ask them? Yeah, I mean, you know, it, it really was, so, you know, there, there were two phases. I mean, one, you know, as the attorney for the uh for the buyer, you know, I, I, I, I try to get some of that information from the attorney to the seller, like, hey, listen, you know, you know your client better than I do it, you know, what, what's really important to him? What does he want? What, what? What is he, you know, what, what's coming up for him, right? And, and this person didn't say he wants an office or whatever, but he, you know, he, he said to me, he's having trouble just letting go, you know, this is his, his baby, his company just to be totally out of it, you know, and he doesn't really, the truth is, he doesn't, I said, does he want like A job that way. Well, no, not really. He just wants to not have it be totally cut off, right? You know, so I got that kind of information. And then, um, you know, I spoke to my client and then we were on an all parties call, and, uh, and I had, you know, I recommended to my client because I had a sense, you know, we'd fill it out. I recommended to my client to say, hey, listen, you know, Joe, making up a name, you know, uh, I've been thinking about it a lot and uh. You know, I've been thinking about the fact that you have such, you know, historic knowledge of this, of the company, and, you know, that's so valuable to us, and, you know, and, you know, I, I'd love not to, you know, it's and it's your legacy, and we're gonna, you know, first of all, uh, to emphasize that they're gonna bring it to the next level and not gonna destroy it, right? You know, so psychologically he felt he wasn't. Um, and then also, you know, they said, listen, I'd like you to No obligation, you know, cause I know you want to move on. But, but I'd love to, you know, have you be able to be around, you know, because maybe I'll have some questions for you, or things like that. So, you know, we were thinking that, you know, maybe we'd, uh, you know, we'd say, hey, why don't, like, I would feel weird to me, for me to be in your office, you know, I'm gonna take this other office. Why don't we leave that office for you? And, you know, maybe I can call upon you from time to time, uh, you know. And, and the guy just lit up, right? He just lit up, you know, um, and, and, and then she said, you know, I was, uh, uh, my client was a woman, she said, and listen, if you're interested, you know, um, why don't we, I'd love you to be chairman chairman emeritus, you know, and I mean it shifted everything, and it was all just from Yeah, you know, like, like, a lot of times they won't tell you what they want, but they will, you can get to the pain point. Like, what is it that, so the knowledge that he was having trouble letting go, and he was a little afraid about the legacy and that, you know, um, but at the same time, if you really didn't want to work, you know, that that's what shaped the recommendation I give. Yeah, that's interesting. I actually had that scenario, not with a business, but it with a family friend who owned a bottling company, and he just didn't want to leave it. It was like 81 to uh years old, but so they gave him an office, he drive in, he shouldn't have been driving, and when he got there, he was pretty cantankerous because he was just having onset, uh, you know, signs of age, and it's just like, hey man, you just can't drive anymore. Yeah. So how did you, you're in this hole, what was like, like, like, I gotta get this next deal, and this kind of helped me, you know, put a solid foot on the first negotiation or deal that I helped with, and the next one and the next one, and how you finally figured out, man, I'm, I'm out of it. I got a clear path. Yeah, so, so, you know, I went through that process. I got my clarity, the D is detachment, right, to stay, you know, detached to the outcome, like, you know, I'm gonna put this out there. I'm gonna, you know, but, uh, and then, you know, and the big thing is the e is maintaining your equilibrium, right? It's so easy to get thrown off in a negotiation, especially you got a creditor yelling at you, you know, we're we're in an M&A deal the other side of the table, they say your company is not worth half of what you're asking, well, you know, what, what Whatever it is that could trigger you, right? Uh, certainly, you know, creditors tell me, telling me they're gonna put a lien on my, on my assets or, you know, sue me at the bankruptcy or whatever they, they say. You know, it's easy to get triggered, but the calmer you can say the equilibrium. So, uh, clarity and equilibrium. And then, you know, I, I talked about it in the book. I, I did what, what I, this tool that I, uh, train people to do, which is called Contests, Purpose and Results. So, uh, a lot of people, the results of the objectives, right? So I got clear on my results on that. I said, hey, Um, I'm gonna pay back all the debt. I'm going to, this is how much I can pay per month. I'm gonna divide it up by the creditors in, in relative proportion to what I owe them, right? So there's a logic to it. I can tell them, hey, you know, you, you, I owe you, you know, 8% of, you know, my total debt, so you're gonna get 8% of what I can afford to pay, right? So I got clear on all these, all these results, all these objectives, all these things that I was gonna do in terms of, um, how I was going to structure the deal and how, and, you know, part of it was staying in the communication with them and being honest and open, and all this kind of stuff. Um, and, and also I had results around being able to continue my business and pay the employees I still needed, right? Um, you know, because, uh, if I wasn't in business, I wouldn't be able to pay anything back. So I get all the results clear, but then you gotta get to a purpose, and this is the wife and. And even in an, in an M&A deal, for example, you know, it's very unusual. Most lawyers, first of all, I get involved much earlier in the process than a lot of lawyers because, you know, uh, most, a lot of lawyers just document deals and frankly, a lot of business folks, investment bankers and others. Often try to keep lawyers out of the process till later, because unfortunately, too many of my colleagues can be deal killers. Um, but because I, I operate very differently, I get involved, you know, much, much earlier. So when people come to me and they're thinking about doing a deal, they have an LOI on the table or it's even before an LOI and they're just looking to, you know, to try to buy or prepare themselves to sell. My first question to them is always why? Which is an unusual question for a lawyer, right? But I need to know the why behind why you're doing this deal, um, to be able to, um, advise you, right? To be able to, you know, cause it's, it's different, right? If you're you mentioned before, if your purpose is, you know, to preserve your legacy, uh, or you wanna make sure your employees are taken care of, or you want to maximize value no matter what, or it's, you know, these are all different things. So similarly, in my personal case, I needed to get down to, you know, my, my, my purpose that was underlying the results that, you know, that I wanted, right? And for me, it was all around honoring my word, right? Meaning paying everybody back, you know, take care of my family and my employees. Um, and, you know, that, that, that's what drove me, right? So, uh, any deal that I was gonna negotiate, I knew I had to be able to pay the employees. I wanted, obviously needs for my family, and it needed to include me honoring my word 100%, which means paying back every penny. Um, So, so, so I did that, and then I talked about context, CPR the C is context. This is the area where most of us skim, right? And this is true even in business deals. There's a being conversation. I was just talking to somebody about this. We had a body language expert, uh present at one of my entrepreneurial organization events. I was in Annapolis, and, um, you know, they, they, they talk all about reading, you know, body language and things like that. And, and I, you know, I think it's useful to be able to read other people's body language, but I Um, but I talk about the fact that the energy you come in with, like, if you're in a place of desperation or scarcity or fear, or ego, or upset or whatever, that's gonna come across, right? No matter what you do. Yeah, you're gonna read that. You can read that. Exactly. Any good negotiator is gonna be able to read it. Even just people see, you know, you know, when you're in a discussion or a negotiation or any situation with somebody and you just get this. Gut feeling that something is, you know, like, you know, you know, right? You know. So it's like a deal. It feels like, oh my God, this deal's dead because of something's going on. Yeah, you got something, something's off, something's wrong, something's whatever. Um, so the context in the CPR process that I talked about in the book, last two chapters of the book are all about this, um, is really, who do you need to be, right? How do you need to come into the negotiation such that you don't. Come, you know, come in with that energy of scarcity or fear, or desperation, or, um, you know, or even, you know, uh, over bloated ego. Um, and so, you know, I give an example of, of, of a, a deal, uh for a client, and I give an example of my CPR in the last two chapters of the book, um, but I did that work. I did that work to create the context, you know, I to get clear on my purpose and get the results. And I believe that's a big part of, you know, uh, what what got it out for me because, and also, so there's the other key thing, it totally shifted. I mean, before I had done the work that I, you know, tell everybody else to do, I was in reaction mode, right? I was just dealing with the credit phone calls coming in, trying to figure out how I'm gonna make payroll in the next week. You know, it was just, you know, and, and I was so far from being in any kind of clear space to create to be able to design a strategy. Um, and it was only when I went away that weekend and just stepped back from it, and then did this work, did this process that I was like, OK, I'm really clear on the results. I got it. I got my context, I got my purpose, right? And then I, now I just have to go and execute. And I'm not underestimating the, you know, the, the journey of executing it. But at least at every point. My decision-making process is clear because I'm, I'm really clear upon, you know, what I'm trying to achieve and what my purpose here is, and exactly the results I want to achieve. And that's what helped me get out of it. And it's the same thing and it helps, you know, me negotiate clients out of tough situations and or, you know, uh, having them get, uh, good deals done. Yeah, so what kind of questions do you You ask yourself to center yourself when you went away? I mean, you mentioned some people that you follow. Bob Proctor, definitely listened to his videos. Wallace Waddles is not mentioned very often, but I have his book. It's a great book. Tony Robbins, Wayne Dyer, he's great, and Jack Canfield. So all of those people like those. Yeah, I, I feel fortunate in that even up until that time coming into the 2008, 2009 and 100, you know, the Great Recession, I had done a lot of work on myself, you know, I had done a lot of, you know, Bob Proctor is definitely a big mentor of mine, you know, obviously it's passed recently, um. But, you know, just the one, the conversation of, of owning my own experience, taking responsibility for my own actions, doing the, you know, I, I, I believe that fundamentally the the world is manifest from within. Now, not, not that you can, you know, things happen, but like Stephen Covey, you know, says, and others have said, I think, uh, you know, you, you are, you are 100% control of of your relationship to what happens. You don't have 100% control over what happens, but you have a 100% control of your relationship, what happens. So, yeah, I mean, when I was up, you know, that weekend, uh, you know, at at the lake house doing this visioning work, and I was and and subsequent to that, I was definitely calling upon all of these things that I believed in, uh, you know, including, uh, you know, and I know that it's been much maligned because it's often oversimplified, you know, the, the conversation is the law of attraction, but I love the way Bob Proctor has put it, is that the law of attraction is based upon the law of vibration. In other words, the vibration you're in, this is, and this relates to the conversation that I bring up in terms of context, right? The being conversation affects what happens in the outside world, and it does because people sense that being and also because it shifts you internally. So for me, when I got reconnected to who I needed to be, to, you know, um, Work myself out of this, right? Somebody who's honorable and honests their word, somebody who keeps in communication with people. Somebody who takes care of their family and their and their employees, right? Um, all of that stuff, right? Those are all commitments at a very deep being level, like, uh, at the level of my character on who I am at a very deep level. Um, once I got clear on all that, that's what allowed me, you know, to move forward, and then I'm, I'm coming in with not only a clarity, but a certain being, there's a certain vibration, so to speak. That, you know, I'm interacting with people about, right? And they, they see that, you know, the creditors see that clarity, and they see that commitment, right? Which is very different from dealing with somebody who's avoiding them, and they're trying to chase them down, right? They're like, oh, well, this guy, wait, he, we, we don't like what he's proposing to us, but He sounds credible. He's not avoiding us. He's actually, anytime he said it, what he's gonna send us, he sent it to us. Like, you know, we got other people to chase, you know, let's this guy seems like, you know, it's like sign this guy off and say, hey, we, we, we count on this commitment. Let's go get the guys that are not. Right? Exactly. And listen, you know, we may not be happy about the $50 a month, but at least we get it. There's, there's 100 other folks that are sending us nothing, right? You know, you know, so. When that vibration, that's part of, I, I'd say, you know, you're you're the new Corey, the new law firm, and the new way to get business, and you're putting yourself out there. Uh, what were you doing to put yourself out there to get new deals, new contracts, clients, um, like, you, you know, you have what Tony Robbins talks about, you've gotta take massive action to get out of a hole, yeah. What was that vibration you're Well, there's a few there's a few things that I, you know, that I did is, is that, yeah, I mean, I, I just, um, I started, I sort of went back to, so let me start out this way. Uh, when I left Big firm practice when I was 30 years old, I had no clients. When I started my firm, I started from nothing, right? And I was actually paying my rent on credit cards. I was doing everything you weren't supposed to do to start up my firm. OK? Uh, and so, you know, I hustled, right? I mean, I, I really hustled. I was at every networking event. I was at back then, right? And, you know, what happens over time is, you know, that when things are going well and, uh, uh, you know, is that you don't hustle as much often, right? You know, and part of it is because you don't need to, right, the business is coming or whatever. So part of what I did was just sort of draw back on what it took to build my firm for nothing and get back out, you know, hustling much more than I did. Um, the other thing I did at that time, although in the long term, it, it was, it didn't, uh, you know, uh, work out in terms of I made a different decision five years later. But I also had an opportunity at that time where somebody asked me whether I wanted to merge my firm with theirs, um, because there were a bunch of synergies in a particular area. Um, and, uh, and I made that decision to do that, which was helpful, um, at least in the first few years, because Um, the synergies did pay off. Um, there were other reasons that business partnership didn't work out, and, and I ended up basically unmerging and taking my team back out in 5 years. But for the first couple years especially, that was helpful because there was an opportunity to sort of fish in a stock pond. Uh, my, my ex-partner had clients in a particular, uh, area of where he did compliance for them, and I could do the corporate work. So that was helpful. So, you know, I, I looked at opportunities where, um, you know, they were revenue generating opportunities. That was one of them. Um, so yeah, I think it was a combination of that and a lot of and a lot of and get back to hustling a lot more and uh yeah yeah I I'm accustomed to. Yeah. So what, what's working for you today that uh brings in, you know, they find you, Corey, as the We need to bring this guy as the negotiator, help us negotiate the best price possible. Yeah, so, so here's the big difference of what I've done over the last 67 years, uh, you know, uh, that I had been doing before. One of the things, you know, I, I had fortunately built, you know, even with that huge bump in the road, uh, and, uh, you know, the few years after that came back up, you know, I built a pretty successful law firm and, and, and, and, you know, uh, doing some negotiating training and that kind of stuff. And doing deals with folks, and I did it, you know, the classic way, right? Networking, building relationships, doing great work for people getting referrals from clients and other senses of influence. But one of the things that always frustrated me was How to stay top of mind, right? When you're smaller and you have a lot fewer relationships and clients, OK, good. And and when you're back at the time when people actually saw each other in person, um, you know, you would go out to lunch and play golf, and do these, you know, all the traditional sort of kind of things. But as you grow, it becomes tougher and tougher to do that, you know, with all of your with all of your clients. And then, you know, they used to have these horrible snail mail newsletters that like some companies would produce for lawyers to try to You know, and the content was terrible. I never did it. Um, and, you know, and then even when the internet came in, I, in the beginning, I didn't really take advantage of it. You know, I had a LinkedIn account that was just a bunch of connections, so I had no idea what to do with them. I had a personal Facebook account, and yeah, you're like, just click, click, click. I'll, you accept your connection. Yeah, but like, why am I connected with you? What? Like you just LinkedIn, like, what I'm, OK, I'm not looking for a job. So that, that was a clear functionality. Otherwise, I got a bunch of people don't connected with it. We all have profiles and whatever. And nothing's really happening. Right? Um, but what, what happened was subsequently, um, is that, you know, I really looked at that and then I started sort of study, you know, hearing about it and seeing and studying what, you know, has become known as the authority marketing, right? Uh, you know, approach, right? Um, and, um, and I said, OK. Um, writing the book was part of that, right? I mean, a lot of it was, a lot of that was, uh, was driven basically by a number of people, a bunch of people, including my wife saying, hey, you have a very, you know, unique successful approach to negotiating. My wife literally said to me, you don't want this to die with you. I'm like, do you have any plans that I don't know about, you know, like, I'm, I think I got a while to go, but, um, any case, uh, you know, but she meant, you know, get it out there, right? So, so. Well, you know, I was driven to write the book for that purpose and to really serve folks, but also, I study models when I do stuff. And, and, and when I studied the book publishing model, I, I, I found out that something like, you know, 80+% of the books sell under 300 copies, right? People don't realize that. Uh, and, uh, you know, and, and, and that you're not gonna get rich, you know, unless you're a, you know, a, a celebrity or the politician or whatever, you're not, you know, you're not gonna get rich off of publishing books. So what's the model? So I started studying the authority marketing, you know, model, and, you know, using it to establish your credibility and to create this, this draw, this incoming, and same thing on my podcast, you know, the the bus podcast, right? So what's happened really interestingly over time, over the last, you know, we started doing more on social media, um, in anticipation of the book coming out, and then I had a book PR company, and then I, I had a, uh, uh, uh, you know, a marketing team that does all that does, you know, help me with my social and, and my the content and the podcasts and all that kind of stuff. And um the whole approach was, yes, to keep me top of mind, to establish me as as as an authority, as an expert, as a, you know, somebody who knows something in, in these areas, you know, which, which was true before, but it's true for many, right? Attorneys are negotiating trainers or whatever, right? A lot, you know, there there there are people who know this stuff out there, but how do you distinguish yourself from other people? So, we started to put out a lot of content. Um, you know, uh, we, we, we, we did the thing with the book became an Amazon bestseller. The podcast is now, you know, Li notes has its top 1.5% out of 2.8 million podcasts in the world. How many downloads do you have? Um, so we, we, we, so this is the interesting part, right? I, I, I watched this niche podcast. I figured if I get 50 people who listen to an episode, it's good because all I need is one or two of them, right? Yeah, you know, to do a deal and it's tens of thousands of dollars to me. So, and in the beginning, that's what it was, you know, it was, it was the first year we're getting 50, 65 people, 85 people, whatever, you know, now we're, we're up to, we're approaching, uh, so, and so, uh, now we're approaching like 6000 downloads a month, um, which again is not millions, right? You know, but it's not a journalist podcast, it's a niche podcast on deals. It's better, it's better than zero, and it's like it opens so many doors you can't. You, you can't understand until you get there. Well, that's right, and, and here's the other thing about it. It's not just the downloads because Uh, we do, and, you know, it's mainly my team, frankly do such a good job at repurposing that content. It's a medium post, it's a blog post, it's a social posts, and to, you know, all these other things that, you know, list of notes measures reach, not just downloads, right, because you really what you want, right? So we've gotten to the point where, again, I mean, one top one, I, I couldn't even imagine top 1.5% of the 2.8 million podcast, this little deals podcast I started, but, uh, and here's here's the, the more important thing. From the authority marketing point of view. And, and for me, it's a lot of it's about impact at this point. So I love that we're impacting more people. Um, but Almost to a person. Anybody who I haven't spoken to in a little while, right? When, when I get on the phone with them, they'll say to me, hey, I read that LinkedIn thing you put out, or I listened to your podcast last week, or, hey, you know, I, you know, I picked up you, I mean the books, you know, been out 4 years now, so a little less of that, but, you know, but for a while it was, hey, you know, I read your book, you know, um. And what I know is that we've grown very significantly over the last 56 years. I mean, significantly. I'm talking about, you know, like a slow growth year has been 20, 25%. There've been years that where it's, you know, way more than that, right? I mean, we'll, we're, we're on pace to be up 50 or 60% this year. So, um, so, now, can I correlate 100%? That growth to, you know, the, uh, all the stuff we're doing, uh, only a small portion of it. Can I definitely say, oh yeah, that referral came from, you know, the, you know, it's hard to measure top of mind. But I don't, I don't feel like I need to measure it. I know the kind of growth we've had. I know that's the biggest change that we've made in what we do. Yeah, I mean, the exercise is, if you had a pyramid and it goes like, well, do I still, still need to keep doing that? I don't know, right? But if I did it, you, if you stop doing the podcast, you would know. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no question. And here's the thing about it that's great for me. It's like, I love doing the podcast, cause I love talking about deals. That's what I, you know, it's my, it's my passion. I love having, you know, you were, I love having amazing guests on the podcast, and we have great conversations and we provide value. So, frankly, even if it, even if it didn't produce a piece of business, I love doing. anyway, right? So I, I said the same thing. I mean, I get to talk to people that have purchased 5, 1020, you know, numbers of businesses and how they did it, how they financed it, how they negotiated the clothes, and etc. I, I love doing it. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's a no lose situation for me and then on top of it. It's very clear that it's keeping me top mind, and there are hundreds of thousands of dollars in business. I can specifically trace the referrals from guests to listeners, to, you know, whatever. So in addition, and then, you know, there's there's way beyond that that I know is coming because, so really what that creates going back to so your initial premise is that Um, we, you know, we get a lot of incoming, right? You know, it's an attraction strategy. It's not like in, in, in, in the beginning of my practice, and then again, you know, after the Great Recession, I was at, you know, I, I did a lot of networking. I'm out there hustling and whatever, and maybe, you know, it's a, it's a very active outgoing strategy. Um, I don't really do any of that anymore, right? You know, um, because this has people, you know, come to me and it also, even when I get, and listen, it's a lot of my business still comes from referrals, but what people are sometimes discount is the fact that Even if you get a good referral, sometimes, you know, an investment banker, for example, is gonna give 3 names, right? Of, of 3 attorneys because they, they don't want to just give one name, right? They want to give the client a choice, um, and they wanna seem, you know, independent, so they're gonna google you, they're gonna look you up. They're gonna see, you know, OK, who is this guy cut for, who's who's got for law firm, who, you know, couple law, you know, all this stuff, right? So when they see that, you know, oh wow, he's got a book out and negotiating. Oh wow, he's he's got a book out, he's got a podcast out, he's got a very active LinkedIn page, and etc. yeah, makes a big difference, you know, you get, yeah, you get, you get bumped up, uh, you know, on the, uh. I, I, I, I don't know if you know this, but I have a little course at Deflowsystem.net that I talk about all of this to do. I said, even if this is your first deal, you need to be a celebrity authority in your market, what you're trying to do. Because if somebody's gonna look like, why should I sell my business to you? If you don't have any LinkedIn page and it's blank, they're not gonna sell your business. If you have a Linked great LinkedIn page, if you have a podcast, if you're doing this, they go like, hey, he's a serious player. Oh, that's right, that's right. And, and, uh, listen, we've we've proven that out and uh and, you know, and listen, it took me a little bit, uh, I mean, I'm not a shy guy, but still. I remember back in the day I had some friends who were way more active and I was like, you know, what am I gonna do videos on? What am I gonna like, I'm, I don't wanna, you know, I'm not gonna, you know, and, and of course she had all kinds of people doing like stuff like showing their food and all, you know, the crazy like bad, you know, I'm like, so one of the things you gotta really think about and I, I don't really think about it, OK, what is it that I want to put out there, right? You know, I didn't randomly pick a Doing a deals podcast. I'm like, oh, OK. What is my brand? Who am I? What am I passionate about, what kind of clients they want to attract, what kind of value you wanna provide? Oh, OK. You know, I'm, I love doing deals, right? I love negotiating. I love doing M&A deal. And not only M&A, we, we, we talk about all kinds of deals, you know, joint ventures, strategic alliances, licensing deals, real estate investment, any kind of non-organic growth, not sales. We don't do any sales stuff, um, because that's what my, I'm passionate about, that's what I have. Where I think I could add value to folks, and that's where I have some, you know, connections. And of course, you know, as time goes on now, we get so many incoming requests, you want to talk about attraction. For guests on the podcast, you know, in the beginning, I was reaching out to my clients and friends or whatever. Hey, would you be on this thing? Now it's like there's just this flow of from, from, you know, all the podcasters and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Same with me at this point now. I mean, I, I don't have a, I don't need to spend money to help me find podcast guests. I mean, like, if I go, if I read about something on a press release and, hey, would you like to be on my podcast, it's usually a yes. Yeah, yeah. You interviewed John Bligh. I see that he wrote something I did. I yeah, I did. I interviewed him twice because I John and I have known each other for years from, um, uh, from entrepreneurs organization, and, uh, I interviewed John very early on. He's one of those friends I called to say, hey, I got this new podcast. Can you be on? He's like, Sure. And the and the first, uh, and the and that was we actually had different branding back in the very in the first year for the podcast, he was on that early. And, uh, he talked about like the 14 acquisitions he had done from day one, you know, to build his, uh, business. But then I had him back on a few months back when he sold, after he sold, uh, or merged in with Apio, um, to say, hey, OK, you were the acquirer, now you made a decision to, to sell. Let's talk about that. So yeah, I've had him on a couple of times. Yeah, he was on my podcast, uh, jeez, I had him on my first. He was #5 for me. Oh wow, OK, I got, now you got me curious. I gotta look back cause he was pretty early for me too, so, you know. Well, I mean, I only started this about a year ago, and I, I saw his book. I had his book for a long time and I go, I gotta get him on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a great guy. He's uh, you know, we got to know each other because, uh, I, we're both active in entrepreneurs organization. I was president of the New York chapter. He eventually ended up being on the global board. Uh, you know, for a number of years, great guy, you know, and yeah, and he talks about the accounting side of business, the numbers side of it. He goes, So that's so important to have that numbers going. Yeah. Yep. That's sweet. All right. Uh, you talked about one last subject. You talked about two really high profile negotiating styles, the one with the equilibrium, and the other guy, the bully, right? And, and finding that style and how to deal with those two styles. I, I love that. Yeah, so it's, yeah, so in the beginning of the book, I talk about, um, a mentor of, of mine who and and it's interesting because he was a mentor by watching his actions. He wasn't the kind of guy who sat you down and said, you know, let me train you to do this, right? And he threw you, he threw you into things. But watching him, and I talk about, you know, this is when I was a, uh, uh, a law student, actually, and I was working at a law firm over a summer, if you're fortunate enough that you get a summer job before they hire you. Permanently, in any case, um, they were negotiating a um a $150 million leverage buyout, which back in the, in the 80s was not that it's not a big deal now, but it was a really big deal. That's on the low end. Private equity firms and stuff like that, yeah, that now, yeah, exactly. So, um, any case, um and I just talk about, I mean I won't go into super detail, but I talk about what I was amazed at is everybody else was flipping out in the room, right? This is a leverage, there's a leverage buyout, the management team has. Mortgaged everything they had just to pay the expenses on the deal, and the deal was falling apart, uh, and, and they were like, there was only half joking that they were glad the windows didn't open on the 32nd floor of the of the building in Manhattan, because these guys were looking like they were gonna jump out. Um, and the other, even the other lawyers were yelling at each other, whatever, and the only guy calm the room was this, was this, you know, this guy, this partner at at my law firm, and I was just, you know, I'm a young kid, I'm trying to just absorb everything, right? And I was just looking at him and I'm thinking to myself, so how does this guy, you know, how does this guy stay calm, right? You know, this is part of where I got this concept of the equilibrium from eventually, you know, in my, in my format was, you know, was studying him. And I remember it was like 2 in the morning, the day before the deal was supposed to close. Everybody else left, thought it was dead, and as, you know, I uh I walk out with him, he puts his arm around me, he says, don't worry kid, this deal will close. I know that's a. And I'm, I'm like looking at him like, what are you talking about? Like, how can, you know, like, this is a disaster right now. Everybody else thinks it's dead. And of course, of course he was right, you know, the deal closed, he had, he had, you know, put things together overnight between folks and whatever and And, and, you know, he had this way that he was just, he, you know, he, he saw the path, right? So I studied, you know, I studied him and then um some a few years later I, I, I left that law firm, went to another law firm, and this is what John was talking about, and the guy over, there was a guy over there, a partner who had a reputation of being a great negotiator. I, in hindsight, I don't actually think he was because he was a bang the table tough guy, you know, kind of guy, right? So, you know, when, when he had leverage, maybe he was able to get what he wanted for the client, but even that, it only works in the short term, right? Cause here's the thing, if if you whether any kind of deal, right, if you crush somebody, Um, then it's gonna come back and hurt you somehow, right? Because usually there's some sort of ongoing relationship with a deal, um, and if there is, that person's always gonna, if they feel like they've been screwed, they're always gonna look for ways to get it back. And even if there's not an ongoing relationship, you do, it's a small world out there, a small community. So maybe you get away with it once, twice, 3 times, but eventually you get a reputation, right? And then who's gonna want to do deal with you. So, and then the other problem is when you're a tough negotiator, is what happens when you don't have leverage. See, the stuff that I teach in the authentic negotiating book will improve your chances of being a bit, you know, getting a better result, whether you have leverage or, you know, anywhere you are on the leverage spectrum, right? Um, tough guy negotiators, you know, if, if you're representing the party doesn't have leverage, you know, especially if they have any kind of good negotiating help on the other side, or, you know, they can get you like, oh great, so you banged the table. We don't care, you know, we don't need to do a deal with you. We'll go. So, so it's, you know, it's, yeah, so I contrast those two styles that helped me, you know, develop my style and pick out, oh wow, that really works, like really in the long term, not just, you know, oh great, you force somebody into something, but that's, you know, that's not the way to do it. Yeah. Love it. Clarity, detachment, equilibrium. Corey Cuffer, great book. I, I jump on Amazon. I am not an affiliate, so, but just get it, authentic negotiating. All right, Corey, thank you so much for the time today. John, great to be on the podcast with you. All right, man, take care. There we go