2 Acquisitions and marching towards $25 Million in Revenue E:47 Peter Oykhman Top M&A Entrepreneur

Welcome to the top M&A entrepreneurs. Today, I have Peter Oikman. He's uh runs a company called Core Partners, originally from Russia, moved here from 1993. He's actually had two companies on the or she's the same company listed twice on the Inc top 500 fastest growing companies. Welcome, Peter. Thank you. So how did you, let's let's go back a little bit, uh, did you have this company Core Partners, when you moved here from Russia or just started it? No, no. Uh, when I moved in Russia, it was, uh, 1993, almost 20 years ago. Um, it's, uh, I moved here on a working visa like, like, you know, a lot of, you know, people, uh, do, uh, uh, and, uh. Uh, basically, then I got my green card and citizenship, uh but uh I worked as a software engineer first and um um then around probably '98 I started um the first company, uh, you know, with a, with a very original name, Software Technology. Uh, and, uh, uh, yeah, yeah, so, uh, so we were doing, uh, a lot of, you know, software development. Um, around this, you know, dot com and, you know, all this crazy stuff, I guess only a lazy person, you know, didn't do anything. Around that time and then around 2003, we actually merged uh with my partner and created this uh core partners. Right, so technically speaking, right, technically speaking, core partners as a result of the merger of, you know, our company. Right. How, how big is Core Partners? When, when, when, when you started then, how big was it and what is it today? Uh, when we started, it's basically was about, uh, I guess, uh, it was two of us, two partners, um, and, you know, my, since then, my partner left, uh, so it's just me. Uh, at the moment, and, um, uh, we had about 10 developers, I think, at the time. Uh, and we also had a product which kind of, it's a kind of a long story, but, uh, we were doing a software development, uh, in this, uh, software technology company or one of, you know, one of the clients, and, uh, the client went belly up, you know, didn't pay us, so we, we owned the product. And uh we, we just, you know, like we're trying to figure out when dotcom crashed like everybody else trying to figure out what to do. And, uh, we, you know, I was like, uh, try to basically start try to sell the product we inherited and, you know, we build it, but I knew nothing about the whole like, you know, warehouse management logistics of that time. So we actually sold a few licenses. Um, and, um, basically start growing and kind of hired more developers and so it's, it's been kind of interesting, but, uh, for a long time up until about 3 years ago, 4 years ago, we were growing kind of a Naturally and, you know, just, just growing and then, uh, frankly speaking, I was like, I, yeah, yeah, I actually probably, you know, we were profitable, so, you know, we could, we could actually buy a company and this opportunity came up and we bought the first company and uh uh early last year. Uh, we bought, you know, it's not the timing was kind of off with the COVID and everything, but, uh, we bought a second company and, uh, let's go back to that first company. Sorry to interrupt, so, so how did this opportunity, I mean, was it in your ecosystem already? Were they a downstream or upstream? Yeah, they, they, they were a customer and uh they basically they had a similar product in a similar space. And uh so they they actually came to me and uh They said, you know, do you want to buy our product? So they, they actually approached you and said, I want out. Yeah. Yes, yes, that that was an original, I mean, it, it was kind of coincidental because it was like, yeah, I don't know. I guess, you know, with all of us, you're just waking up one morning and I was like, well, you know, I probably have to do something different, you know, I'm just, I don't know if it's a boredom or something else. I have to do something different. And it just coincidentally, uh, I started looking at, uh, some to do something else and, you know, to, to, you know, do some, uh, you know, uh, probably, you know, M&A and they approached me, so it was kind of a sort of a happy, happy accident sounds right. So, so, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, so when you say similar product now, and, and this is kind of interesting because I, when I worked for Autodesk, they had 3D studio and animation package, and then they also bought Maya because they found out in a production studio they're used at different parts in the supply chain or the production chain. So they bought them for years and years and years they said. You know, we're not gonna buy a competitive product, but they sit two differently. So is that the case with your somewhere? So we, our core product, it fits into this like middle market. So, and, uh, I always kind of knew that, uh, we have this low market opportunity, like, you know, like a. Inexpensive product for inventory, like, you know, small kind of a check in, check out kind of a, uh, but I, I, I. I can't figure out how to address this honestly, just, just to be completely transparent. So because it's a, it's a different product, right? So, basically, uh people, sorry. So, um, Uh, people, uh, basically it's a self registration involved and it's also kind of a low maintenance, uh, you know, hopefully low maintenance involved so it's a software as a service, it's a cloud-based product. And I'm always, you know, we, we were kind of a middle market, kind of an on-premise installation, this sort of thing. So I was like, I really like to get there, but I don't, I don't know how to, how to start there. Uh, so, um, and that's, that's companies, that's what they've been doing. And, and, you know, the biggest part for me was, um, I was never really 100% sure how to make money there. Because clients or what was the yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, they, they have a quite, quite, they had a quite a few clients and we, we actually, we, we rebuild the product, redesigned the product, and we've got more clients and it's even more robust than ever. But, uh, my question was, like, if you're selling it to a client, like, for example, $35 a seat or, you know, like for two seats, like $70 right? So, um, uh, I, you know, how, how, how, how could you make money, right? So you, you either have to have like a lot of clients, right, right, right. So, so it's kind of a, uh, and, uh, the other thing was also kind of very, very interesting that. Uh, you know, OK, you got the clients who are spending like $35 you know, uh, a seat or like $70 for two seats, but then you've got expenses on, uh, support, maintenance, uh, you know, somebody will have. They will have some questions. Somebody will have to either answer like phone or so, I mean, with such a low cost product, it's really wasn't really transparent for me how to, how to approach it. So, so, uh, in that sense, uh, I was looking at it, but I, I always had some doubts how to approach this. But these companies, they already, they already built the product, they already had the customers. And, uh, you know, I looked at their, you know, a balance sheet, kind of, yeah, you know, you, you actually could make money. Yeah, so when you looked at this, I mean, they approached you, did they, were they looking for, uh, I mean, why didn't they go to auction like a broker site or something like that, they just yeah. We, we worked with them uh before and uh essentially uh we build uh You know, uh, system at some point with them and they looked at our software, so we, we were, you know, we knew each other and, you know, uh, basically, uh, it was sort of a natural, so, you know, like we, we knew the value, we knew. Uh, the, uh, you know, we had an expertise, so it's, it's really, you know, if we're starting from a ground zero in this space, um, in the sense that, you know, you have to explain what, where and how, where we could just skip all these, uh, interesting conversations and basically go to the question, you know, how much and, uh, you know, when. Yeah. Does this product, is this product lead into your product? Will people buy this product and then buy yours? Right, right. So it's a smaller product and uh yes, San Jose's customers went to, you know, kind of migrated to our product and such, yeah. Right. So how did that negotiations go? I mean, did you pay what? Capital stack look like? Did you pay out of pocket or was it a stellar financing or what? No, no, no, no, we, we, we paid, we paid from, from, from our profits. So right, so what was it, uh, what were they asking? It was like 7 figures or 8 figures or, um, no, it, it, it was, uh. It was, uh, 6 figures, uh, kind of like, yeah. It was, it wasn't the product is not that big. So it was a 6-figure kind of sum, which was easier for us as a first acquisition, so we don't have to go and get, you know, some financing and, and. Such so and it was much, much cleaner, so we, you know, kind of, we don't have to wait, we don't have to deal with, uh, you know, banks and such. So did you just pay out of your cash flow? You said, hey, I have this saved up and I'll just. Yeah. What was the multiple on that? Uh, well, uh. I mean, that was a software. This is back in 1990, so it's not the crazy multiples you'll see today. Right, right, right, right. So, so, yeah. Uh, so, yeah, it, it, it was, it was a good number. It was a good number. It's a kind of a, it was easy. That's the number they were looking for and that. Was a number, uh, for us, easy to digest. And did they stay on with you to help run it or did they go off? No, no, no. We basically, we, we just bought it, uh, it's, it was, you know, literally an asset purchase and we, we, we purchased an assets and, you know, they, we, they helped us for, for a couple of months and that's it. So where does that, I mean, where does that acquisition today for you? I mean, what does it mean? Does it, did it really help you understand acquisitions or was it really great? Uh, a leading product. It was really definitely a great experience. So, um, in that sense, uh, we had a really good structure and, and it's very important, like, you know, to understand the structure of the contract, you know, uh, you know, how, what's going on there with the whole, you know, kind of what, what, what's, how it's supposed to happen. And so that's why I'm saying that it's, it was a kind of an easy for us to tie. Digest because, you know, the acquisition wasn't that big and but we we did everything what we're supposed to do, like, you know, for any acquisition pretty much. All the due diligence and stuff, right, right, right. Does that happen to be uh coders from Russia or were we're just like in the United States? No, no, no, no, no, it's uh they they're actually the company in Colorado. 00, OK, that's interesting, yeah. And how does that did that. Over time lead to bigger revenue numbers for you now. Right, right. So, so basically, uh, we already made it, you know, way more money on the company than we paid for it, right, right. So, so that, that was, that was an interesting, but it also was very good experience. So basically we're taking somebody else's code. And, uh, our guys were, uh, you know, kind of digging through the code and, you know, we making improvements. We, we had like a roadmap and, uh, what, what, what they want to do, you know, where they will want to be with a product and such. So, as I said, uh, it's basically, like, we went through all the right steps. It just was a smaller steps, which, which kind of was a really nice and easy way to, you know, get into. uh anime kind of how was the code? I mean, how clean was it because sometimes you look at an acquisition and go, oh, that's really old cold and code and it's gonna be really bulky and it was rewrite it in a couple of years, right, right. It, it wasn't it wasn't bad. Uh, but it was, uh, it wasn't great. So it was kind of a, it's OK. And the biggest part was, uh, you wanna, uh, you know, when you're dealing with software as a service, you want to optimize the software for the cloud. Uh, and because, right. And, and it's not only speed, but, you know, uh, yeah. Number of, you know, virtual machines, number of resources. So, so, uh, basically, better, better you are at that, cheaper, cheaper your cloud is, right? The cheaper your, uh, you know, platform is. So, and we've done a lot of that. And, uh, this, this product was also, um, uh, very much attached to a QuickBooks. And, uh, what we, what we did, we also basically decoupled them, uh, that product from QuickBooks. So it could be totally like standalone product. So that was, that was also on our roadmap. So we did quite a few things, but, uh, honestly, uh, it, it, I mean, again, it's pretty much what we were expecting. So we were, we didn't expect something like great because we had access to the source code, you know, before, right? So we knew more or less what we're dealing with. So, how did you have access to the source code? Oh, during a due diligence they gave us an access to the source code. Oh, OK, OK. So they just were open books, very transparent, uh, yes, yeah, yeah. So, uh, and we, we had probably, of course, not to the whole source code, uh, and, and everything, but we had a, you know. Pretty, pretty big piece of a source code that we could look at. We, we could see what, what we're dealing with. And I, I had the same, the same kind of a, uh, you know, like, well, you know, I, I really don't wanna, I, I don't know what I'm dealing with, so give us a piece of the code. So at least to, to look at what, what's the deal. Yeah, yeah. And so the price you paid for it. Uh, that they ask, they ask for is it the same price they paid? Or was there any negotiation, like, like, oh yeah, no, I didn't like that code in there. No, no, no, we, of course we negotiated and it's like it's like it's it's every time you're, you're negotiating when you're, you know, buying a car, of course you're, if you're buying a company, of course you're negotiating. Yeah, so why did they sell? What was their motivation? It wasn't their main focus. So they, they basically, it was, uh, off their main kind, so they build it, they, they, they, you know, they also made money on it strangely enough, right? So, they also made money on, on the product. But then, you know, it's, if you're, if it's not your main focus, you're, you, you have to dedicate resources. You, you have, you know, it's like you have To support the code. They didn't have a big software development team to, and, you know, uh, as you can imagine, you know, developers in Colorado is also pretty expensive. And that was our kind of, uh, you know, back end. So we had access to it, cheaper resources. And that's why I'm like, yeah, I, I know what I want to do. I know how, you know, where I want to go. So that was it. Yeah, so how was the feeling of that negotiation? I mean, it's, it doesn't sound like it. Hey, the guy is 75 years old, he wants a life changing exit, so I'm gonna take my, I'm already rich, I'm gonna take my time versus this product doesn't really fit in our core products, and we got to divest it. So let's make it happen. Right. So, so basically, it was, it was very nice, kind of a, so we, we both knew what we're looking for. So they, they wanted to do something else. They want to get. Their money out and go do something else. Uh, for us, uh, like we wanna add additional kind of a product, we kind of, it, it would take us much more money to build and, you know, to get to this phase, the number of customers and such. So it was absolutely, we both, I mean, I, I'm pretty sure that we both were happy with the deal and uh it's just Um, you know, I guess it's a whole question of timing. It's, you know, very important. So they were ready to sell. I was ready to buy, and we, we had to, you know, I think we were both happy with like the timing was just perfect, right, exactly, exactly. So, and you integrated that and did you find any complications with like, uh, just the resources? I mean, you need people to work on the code and then people to sell it and then the people to support it. Right. What did you encounter there? Um, nothing major. I mean, again, um, uh, we, because we do have a product ourselves. So we just added another product to, to the mix. So it wasn't, you know, anything crazy. Uh, I mean, yeah, it was a normal kind of a, you know, pain with, uh, you know, transition and, uh, you know, getting people up to speed. And, but, uh, and, you know, of course, we encounter some bugs and, you know, Some, some, some hardware issues, software issues, like, like anything else. But, um, again, uh, our, uh, it's not that we had the low expectations, but we just knew that we had to deal with this stuff and we put a, you know, you know, pretty good people on, on a task to, to kind of, to, you know, uh, to learn everything. And then we, we put it like a junior developers after we, we knew what we're dealing with. Yeah. And how did that, I mean, how did this acquisition kind Change you. I mean, what I'm kind of looking for is like, uh, oh my God, I could just double my revenue and one acquisition or what happened? No, uh, it's basically, uh, I guess, uh, I never really knew what to expect, and, you know, it's like, you're always talking about this M&A, right? You hear about this M&A from, from all kinds of places. You just, uh, you have no idea what you're dealing with, and that's probably the scariest part. And that's First kind of an acquisition, you know, like, first, you have to make a decision, and then when you're doing it, uh, turns out that, yeah, you know, like, of course, we spend on a, on attorneys way more than we, we expected. But, you know, as a first acquisition, but we pretty much then use the, you know, very similar contract, uh, in, in our second acquisition. So it's not like we wasted our money. What, what was the, uh, why was the more time spent or more money spent with the attorneys? Uh, I mean, and I guess the question is like, is there something about that acquisition that you could have done different and said, hey, that was a great lesson for the next one. Right, so, so, basically, again, um, you know, we both were trying to, and they had the in-house attorney and we, we, we, we, we don't, right? So we're sounds like a bigger company, yeah, right, right. So, uh, and, um, uh, the, the problem was that um Uh, kind of they're trying to protect their interests. We had a very good attorneys who are trying to protect our interests and we're just, you know, going back and forth on a few issues, um, you know, again, nothing, nothing unusual, pretty much standard issues, uh, you know, uh, um, uh, terms, conditions and such, and, uh. Uh, but at the end of the day, uh, you know, uh, and that's, that's a good part that, uh, we, we, we could, you know, both, you know, sit down at the table and, uh, and basically, and, uh, talk to each other and that, that actually helps that, you know, we, we knew them before. And, um, uh, so it, it was, it, it was nothing like crazy kind of a negotiation or Anything of that nature. It sounds like the right place at the right time. So, yeah. So fast forward, um, you're moving along, you get those integrated and this, how did this other second one come about? Well, uh, that's, that's kind of a, that's interesting, uh, because, you know, I was, I was honestly ready for, for the second acquisition after the first one because I'm like, yeah, you know, it's, it's not that bad. It's kind of, it's, you know, pretty, I mean, it, it, the biggest part for us was Uh, strangely enough, accounting, because, uh, they were dealing with, uh, uh, like payment system like authorized.net. We, we haven't done anything with authorized.net, and you have to create an account. And of course, it, the painful part comes, like you, you have to talk to them and, uh, you know, basically transfer their accounts to our accounts and, you know, uh, it's, it's just a pain. It's just, but it's. No, I've used the logistics, right, so, but, uh, when, when you're trying to, you know, merge something or kind of a split something with authorized.net, it's always a pain. I mean, it's just like, you know, so, so, uh, the second, the second one, yeah, you asked me about the second one. The second one was different because, um, uh, frankly speaking about, uh, 2 years ago. Uh, I started looking at the economy, and, uh, you know, you know, not, not to get too political, but, um, you know, uh, you're always trying to figure out what's your best case scenario and what's your worst case scenario. Uh, and it was COVID and, um, I'm just, you know, you know, who knows who, who will go to the, you know, White House next, but, you know, you've got the COVID situation that, you know, economy is not doing, you know, so great. So, uh, I was just uh trying to figure out, um, who is, you know, which industry and what, what area is, uh, more, um, uh, kind of a recession. Well, it's not recession pro but, you know. Uh, more, uh, uh, robust towards the economy. I know, I, I, I think that's a person, a great way to describe it, recession, right, right, right. So, um, that's, that's, that's actually, uh, basically, uh, I looked at a couple of different industries and, uh, uh, you know, of course, I, I, I, I didn't know how, you know, COVID is going to hit and how political situation is going to hit, you know, what angle and it's certainly it's a gamble, but Um, I, I figured that if anybody will survive in, in this, you know, crazy situation, that would be SAP and, um, because, you know, typically companies who are using SAP it's a big as companies and, you know, they're, they got, you know, usually pretty big budget and such. So to, to be an SAP partner and to do some SAP development, it's kind of, it's, it's more reassuring. So I start looking and Again, you know, kind of strangely enough, uh, 11 guy I knew before, um, uh, he started talking about like, yeah, you know, too much pain, uh, you know, I, I, you know, don't know what I wanna do next. And, and for him it was a little bit different because He reached a certain limit and he didn't know where else, you know, how else he's going to grow. So I, I, I started talking to him I was like, well, you know, we, we could, uh, you know, we could actually buy your company and, you know, we could grow together, so to speak. Uh, because it's also a question of resources and, uh, you know, capabilities and such. Yeah, what was his revenue like? I mean, 7 figures or what some, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a, it's, it's, it's a good size. It's not a huge revenue, but again, as a, you know, I wasn't looking for because I didn't want to again go and finance that. So, yeah. Yeah, as you know, you know, you're going and looking for some finance, you're, you're giving up something. There is, you know, like, there is a, you know, my, my dad's, you know, favorite expression is the only free stuff in this life is a cheese and a mouse trap, right? So, so, so, um, is that, is that your dad is, I mean, from Russia, I kind of state the phrase, OK, yeah, yeah. And because he was in world survived World War 2, or what? Uh, oh yeah, no, he was born right before World War II, and, uh, you know, his, you know, childhood, you know, was, uh, you know, in during World War 2 and Pretty bleak for Russia. Uh, pretty bleak for the whole world. Yeah. It's, uh, it, it was, uh, it was pretty, uh, unpleasant times on, you know, all fronts, but in Russia, it was especially not friendly. So, uh, so we had the relatives who, who went to this, uh, you know, camps, uh, Uh, Stalin's scams and, uh, so, uh, yeah, it was, it was very, very much interesting. Kind of a purge there of the intellectuals and all types of directions, yeah. Right. And, and pretty much everybody every family had people who died during Second World War, so it wasn't, it wasn't pretty, but. stretch, uh, so yeah, um, so, and your dad kind of instilled that, you know, don't take on debt kind of, uh, belief. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's, it's the most traditional kind of, uh, um, you know, in the Soviet Union, you know, like, and here's a little kind of history. Uh, there is, it was no credit. It, it wasn't, you know, they don't, they don't, not, not in the old Soviet Union. So basically, if you have money, you're buying something. If you don't have money, well, you know, kind of a, you don't buy anything. Interesting. I think more people could do that here. Yeah, right, right. So, so, uh, but, uh, general idea, uh, that, um, you know, uh, yes, you could go and get some money from like, you know, VC and such, but it will cost you and people are not always. Realizing how much it's gonna cost them, right? Uh, and especially for the small business, uh, if you're not, you know, if your revenue is not, you know, if under 10 mL, um, it's going to cost you a lot. Yeah. So this, this, this was an SAP business ecosystem kind of business, but it, what did it have anything to do with your business or it was just it was a software development we do, we do have a part, uh, you know, part of our company we do a software development, so we were familiar with the business of software development. It was nothing really, I mean, it's a, it's a different niche, but it's the same business. So it's not again, not my first choice. Software development is kind of a You know, honestly speaking, it sucks, uh, because, you know, uh, you have to compete with, uh, you know, uh, I, I'm, I'm sorry for that, but you have to compete with Indian developers who are knocking on your door every 5 seconds and telling you that, you know, we have developers that, you know, for $5 an hour or, you know, $7 an hour. Um, so yeah, you have to, you have to somehow somewhere compete with that, uh, which, you know, turns out not to be so glamorous, uh, and I could quote one of my, you know, customers who actually said that, uh, they, they actually, you know, they're using us and they're using other companies, and he said that, um, they changed 5 companies in India. Wow. So, so, kind of, yeah, it's, uh, it, it's $5 an hour, $10 an hour, but not, not that great. Actually, we're looking at opening an office in India at some point. And, uh, I was, you know, interviewing a few people and one of the ladies, she's a project manager, and she's like, if you will offer us a, you know, good, good terms, uh, you know, I will come to you and I will bring my entire team with me. I was like, Oh shit, you know, kind of a, um, uh, you know, kind of a, uh, sorry, sorry about that. Uh, but, um, I was like, yeah, if that's if if that's your business, or you're, you're just picking up and leaving in the middle of the project, I really don't want to deal with you. Yeah, I mean, basically, then, then, then, you know, where is the guarantees that she's not going to do the same thing with us you with somebody else, right? So, so no, so I, I looked at the opening office in India. Uh, and I was like, no, I, I don't want to, honestly, I don't wanna deal with, with this kind of, and it's, it's, it's cultural, and I'm, I'm sure that, I mean, there are tons of companies like Microsoft, Google, they, they got offices in India and they're striving, but as a small business, uh, I cannot uh I cannot have that big of a risk, right? So, developers are moving. They're, they're always moving, but it's not like the whole team will pick up and leave because somebody offered you a better salary. Right, right, right. So how did this, so let's, I want to go back to this. Did you find this guy? Was it listed on market or off market or what? No, no, it's basically he was in my ecosystem, so to speak, and we just, you know, uh, it was another conversation we had, like, you know. And um he's like, I don't know what to do next because, you know, it looks like I, I'm, you know, hitting a wall with And it's pretty much standard with a, with a small business, right? So you're at some point you, you're, you know, feeling that you're hitting the wall because you, you, you don't have enough money to grow, you don't have enough resources to grow, and, and so on and so forth. There's a chicken egg thing that happens and then you're just right, right, right, that's, that's what happened, but And again, um, now, now, you know, you, you're, when you're a small business, your risks are higher, so you, you know, smaller revenue, essentially, you don't know if you'll have enough kind of a, uh, project tomorrow or not. So it's, it's all understandable, but it's, it's, um, and people are getting tired of that, you know. And, uh, that, that's why kind of at some point, it was my sort of a motivation at some point, like, well, you know, I have to go either, you know, like, either sell the business or grow the business, you know? So, uh, that, that's what I was referring to at some point. I just woke up and I was like, well, you know, I'm, I'm tired of doing this. So, you know, kind of, uh, I either have to, you know, sell the business or grow the business. And I was like, well, you know, I'm not ready to sell. Uh, I, I would rather grow the business. So. So that's, that's what happened. Yeah, so how was that negotiation? Was that that was cash out of pocket, um, fair price, overpriced, got a great deal or what win-win situation, right? No, I mean, in my mind the deal only could happen when sort of a Both party will be happy at some, you know, to some degrees unless, you know, there is a kind of an outside, you know, uh, something going on like people will have to retire and then that's, that's a different story or, you know, people going out or sorry, uh. Out of business and you know some something like that but um so no converse I mean uh we, we negotiated, you know, uh he, he asked for, you know, one price I offered him a different price uh but uh you know, we sort of. Met in a happy middle and, uh, you know, that, that was kind of a, yeah, you know, I, I, I think, and we're, he's still, he's actually, he is part of our company. So he, he, he stayed with you. Oh yeah, he, he, he stayed with us and, uh, now basically he's one of the directors and so like we're, you know, pretty happy with everything, you know, he seems to be pretty happy with everything what happened. This is, oh, maybe it was a case of, look, I just don't want to be in the lead with all the stress behind me. Yeah. Um, uh, yeah, that was also, uh, part of the deal most likely, but it's also was kind of a, a lot of things were happening, uh, because he was in Europe, Europe, you know, and the company was in Europe. And, uh, you know, they got some crazy stuff going on with the banks and, uh, with, with all these, you know, taxes and such. And he's like, yeah, I don't, I really don't want to deal with this stuff anymore, you know. If I want to, you know, like, I, I wanna kind of focus on business, but I don't want to deal with that stuff. And we're in Europe. Uh, the company actually was registered in, uh, uh, Baltic Republic in Latvia. Latvia, OK, yeah. So, um, so yeah, so, and, uh, uh, how did that, that acquisition turn out as far as ROI? Uh, it was, no, it, it's, it's really good. It's we're, we're very happy with, with, uh, we actually gained a few more clients, uh, you know, uh, last year, uh, they, they, you know, revenue grew. And, uh, profit is, you know, actually really, really good. I mean, again, you know, SAP if you are not making money on SAP development, you are completely, you have to be completely, you know, clueless not to make money on SAP. It's a process to become an SAP partner, but, uh, pretty much everybody who is, uh, Hey, sorry, that's my baby. We're we're in the office, we're kind of, we're all in the office and I'd say you're in 2022. That's all over the place, yeah, it's either dogs or kids or something walking in. Yeah, no, I mean, we, I'm always bringing my, you know, baby to the office, so my 120 pounds baby, but, you know. Yeah, what kind of dog is it? Uh, it's a giant schnauzer. Giant schnauzer. OK, yeah, interesting, yeah. Yeah, she is, she is, uh, uh, pretty, uh, she has a character. Yeah, so, Latvia, huh? That's, that's interesting. I mean, was there any surprises in that because you're now you're from Eastern Europe originally. Yes, yes. Did the language issues or did they speak English, you speak English or what? Uh, yes, yes, we, we both speak. English and we, you know, both actually speak Russian. It's kind of a most like through the Eastern Europe, you know, you pretty much speak a number of different languages. This is like speaking to somebody in New Mexico or Colorado. Well, you know, uh, you're, you're, you know, or you're going to Europe in general, um, unless it's a friends who are not English friendly and just being, you know, sometimes it's not that they don't know English, they just don't want to speak to you. Um, uh, but most of the European countries, they speak English, so, uh, that's, that's not, that's not an issue, and most of the Eastern European countries, they speak, uh, Russian over a sort. Yeah, so let me, let me ask you about this, how you set this up, because they're completely, it's an SAP, it's different from your LMS. Was it a separate, uh, special purpose vehicle like a LLC or holding company or is it all under the No, no, no, no, we, we again, we, we did the same pretty much the same thing where because it's a European uh country, we, we basically we acquired an assets. Because we, we didn't really know what, what's what's happening with the liabilities or somebody is going to sue the company like, you know, you know, 5 years later, so we're trying to avoid that part, you know, again, based on our attorney's advice. Um, you know, kind of, uh, if again, if you're a bigger company, that, that is not so kind of a critical. But again, you know, you're talking about the small business and, uh, if you, yeah, even, even if you will win, but to go and, you know, to court to in Europe and You know, with, with somebody, uh, because of, you know, the company did something, uh, it's, it's not the most advisable thing. So that's, that's why our, our attorneys, they said, like, you know, do an asset purchase, you know, basically don't touch the company, even, I mean, uh, I don't, unless you have to, uh, but, uh, because of the, you know, unknown liabilities with, uh, you know, EU. Uh, you know, kind of a, um, it's, uh, it could be a big surprise you don't want to see. Yeah. And where, where that's integrated into your stuff, do you, do you like, if you need work done on your LMS, your other products, your commercial products, do you go to your development team and right. Yes, yeah, so we, we do have a development teams and uh we're actually in that sense, right now we got about 150 developers, give or take. It's not a huge number, but you know, just enough for it's a big number, yeah, just enough, yeah, uh, um, but yeah, right now we're looking at a, um, uh, as I said, we, we had a call this morning with a company and, you know, also Eastern Europe, um, and, um, uh, they also do a software development, um. Uh, we're just looking for, um, somewhere diversification, um, and, uh, you know, just, just the, you know, capability to grow, uh, in that, in that sense because, um, uh, we, we, unfortunately, kind of fortunately, unfortunately, one of our development offices are in Russia. And uh with the whole political situation right now, we're we're we're just looking for uh so kind of a Uh, a safety net, so to speak. Yeah, it's getting a little hot in Ukraine. Uh, yeah, and, and you don't really know what's going to happen, but, uh, so that's, that's why we're looking for a sort of a, um, so, I mean, it's a dual purpose. We were looking for expanding, you know, new customers and uh kind of a bigger revenue, but it's also kind of a little bit of a A net where, you know, we could transfer some of our technologies to a safer place. Yeah, yeah. Oh, what is it now you're looking for? Are you looking to kind of Keep acquiring these assets that kind of fall in your lap or you wanna go bigger, like, no, well, uh, kind of a, uh, I, I, yes, bigger, yes, but, uh, my, you know, it's like uh immediate, immediate goals and long-term goals. Uh, my immediate goal is, uh, you know, uh, I wanna again, I wanna grow the business and that's uh. Um, it's not a huge company, but they got about like 4 million in revenue and pretty, pretty decent profit, but, uh, $4 million in revenue. Uh, but, uh, I just want to have a safety net. I, I don't want to hear about this Russia deal and, you know, the, the, the crazy people there and who knows what their president is going to do tomorrow, you know, uh, it's like what side of the bed he's going to. Uh, wake up next day and, you know, go to Ukraine. Don't go to Ukraine. I'm just tired listening to the news. They're like, Oh shit, you know, something is going to happen. So I, I, I wanna sort of, uh, uh, you know, have a safety net there. And then, um, the next part is, uh, I want to grow, uh, logistic business and I want to grow a learning management business. So, so basically, immediate, immediate goal is to, to have to create a safety net, uh, because, you know, I, I, I honestly am, you know, again, grow the company and grow, you know, number of customers political uncertainty happening, yeah, where your assets are, right? I, I, I don't, I, I don't want to deal with that stuff anymore, honestly. It's not that I'm going to close the facility, but I, I just don't, you know, I, I want to know that if something. Will happen, we have an alternative. Yeah. So is that include getting key people to the United States on green cards, or? Well, uh, it's that's, that's actually one of the reasons why I'm looking at, like, for example, uh, countries in the Eastern Europe. So if something will happen, actually, we could move people to, uh, kind of other Eastern European countries. So that's, that's, that's the logic behind it. So if something will happen, we could move people from Russia, uh, because getting US visa is impossible, where getting, uh, you know, Bulgarian visa, Poland visa, you know, Czech visa is very easy. Yeah. So, so, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to create, as I said, like, you know, safety net in a kind of sort of like near shore, right? So uh closer to Russia where, you know, if something will happen, I could move people to other facilities, other offices, uh, where they could, you know, keep doing what, what they're doing. And, you know, visas again. Um, you know, uh, going to the US right now, uh, there is no consulate in Russia, you know, you cannot get a visa in Russia for the love of God, you know, US visa, uh, and there is a, you know, 6 month line right now, so, you know, something will happen. It probably will be like, what, 24 months line. So that's, that's not, that's not an option. So it's like you're trying to get people out there out of Russia, let's say, move to Bulgaria or Poland, and it's just not the, the government there is just not cooperating. No, no, no, no, no, no, uh, no, uh, to, to go to Bulgaria or Poland to check, that's much easier to go to, yeah, to, to go to the US is a, is a huge issue from Russia, from Russia to US. It's, it's a huge issue. So I, I'm, I'm happy to bring people here, you know, like, and again, not to be political. I was ready at some point to send people to our southern border because it's like, we're paying like 25,000 plus, uh, you know, for working visa, uh, you know, plus, you know, Kind of a green card and, and such. And, and, and he was like, why? Why I'm doing this? Because it looks like it's much easier to go through the southern border. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I was, I, I was like, well, you know, I, I, I'm happy to send people to Mexico. I was like, well, you know, go there. Yeah, let's, uh, we'll cut that recording if anything does happen. So what's the long term goal for you? I mean, do you have a number in mind that you say, I want to get this to $50 million and sell to private equity or, honestly, uh, my goal is, you know, uh, fairly, fairly easy and fairly kind of achievable. I, I wanna, I wanna go to about 2025 million or top line. Uh, well, uh, revenue, revenue, revenue, yeah, so, uh, so, uh, and, uh, it's, it's not, it, it's kind of very, very kind of in my mind, very achievable and very realistic. And, uh, then, you know, we could talk about something else, you know, uh, because, um, you know, uh, even, even talking to the VC companies, right, uh, I don't wanna. Talk to them, you know, from a, I, I want to have a kind of a strong position for that kind of a conversation. So, so, and, and you, you, you should be in a, you know, in my mind, you should be in a better position to, uh, kind of the whole, you know, revenue EIA, uh, you know, and better your position is, uh, better terms you will get. Right. Well, the larger it is, the more processes you have in place. So if you get your EBITA over 2 million, you know, let's say 5 million, you're gonna get a In a software company, it's like SAP stuff, you're gonna get double digits probably right, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. So, so, uh, so, you know, that that's a conversation I would like to have. I don't, I don't wanna go and beg for money, you know, it's like that's not. Yeah, no, that'll, that'll happen if you have the right structure in place because if a private equity firm buys you, they may have 5 people in their office, right? They're not gonna take over the business, yeah. Do have you kind of warmed up or A little bit more say, hey, I may have to raise some money to buy something bigger to get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, actually I'm talking to a couple companies right now, um, and, um, it's, it's a little bit, you know, I, I don't know if I will need money for the next deal, uh, but, uh, if I will, uh, I, you know, kind of, again, private equity, um, you know. Um, for me, and again, it, I'm not saying that I'm an expert and you're probably know more about it than than I, I do, uh, you know. Absolutely. But, uh, you know, uh, talking to a private equity, number one, it's a long, long way to kind of to get there, right? Um, and, uh, it's, uh, and the, the second thing that actually bugs me is, um, you know, As I said, you're, you're, you have to give up something, right? So, so, uh, and you, the biggest part for me is you're dealing with a, you know, another group of people with a different dynamic. Maybe their dynamic, you know, will match your dynamic, maybe it won't. But you're, you're essentially, you, now you got a partner and, uh, you know, kind of a, um, you know, it's like a marriage, right? It's, it's, it could be, it could be complicated dynamics there. It's gonna be either equity or debt, right, so, so, so they, they, you know, uh, maybe you, you know, like marriage, it's kind of a I've been married twice, so. Are you married or something? Yeah, no, I, I, I, I got, I got a girlfriend and, but, but yeah, I've been married twice, so kind of, I stepped on pretty much uh all the things I was, I was supposed to. Yeah, I, I think, I think you can get that. I mean, we don't have a lot of time left, but if you got to say 5 million either uh. Uh, then you start reaching out to maybe some of the private equity groups a year in advance and say, hey, this is what we're working on. And, uh, you know, in 12 months you'll get a, uh, it's like this is what we're looking for, this is the number, and, uh, you know, promise me that that's the number we're gonna deal with. Right, no, and that, that, that's what, that's what I'm trying to do. That's why I'm talking to a, a couple of private equity firms and it was like, uh, just trying to figure out what, what they're looking for. Again, it's, it's not gonna happen tomorrow, but, you know, it probably, it's gonna happen at some point. But yeah, I, I, I wanna have at least a few names I will feel comfortable with. Yeah, so you've done a couple of acquisitions, you're working on your 3rd, right? Right. Yeah, and how does it, does it feel a lot easier? Definitely, definitely, you, you, you know, you know, uh, what, you know, questions to ask, what, you know, uh, where to look, uh, and such. So yeah, it's, it's definitely, uh, is there a part of you that said, gosh, I wish I would have started this earlier. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it, it def definitely, definitely. Yeah. And, but again, um, you know, kind of a, I know how to explain, you know, uh, I guess I wasn't ready. So, so, uh, so, you know, when you're not ready, you're essentially forcing yourself, when you're ready, you know, everything is much, much easier. Yeah. Yeah, when, when your, your brain is open, your mind and your hearts are open to that, it's it you'll find it like, like the first one you found. I mean, it came to you, yeah, right, exactly, exactly, depends on what you're wishing for the universe that's uh yeah. Absolutely. Well, Peter, we're already up against an hour, and I want to thank you so much for, uh, talking about your journey here, your acquisition journey. So, yeah, thank you so much. You're welcome. You're welcome. All right, take care. You too. Bye.