A Union Co op Model Co op Cincy 10 Years On

welcome everyone and welcome to our session today on union cooperatives and we're taking a look at co-op cincy and their 10 years of experience with union co-ops this is the second in a series that cooperation works is sponsoring on cooperatives and unions and uh the first session was uh back on march 24 21st that recording is available and that was on the basics of what is a union today we will look at union co-ops coming up next friday april 22nd rebecca luery will be joining us and she will share her toolkit on union cooperatives and then rounding out this series on may 17th we have gems city market uh in dayton ohio sharing their model of a multi-stakeholder cooperative and how they are progressing to uh to ownership and their their neutrality towards union organizing um amongst the uh workers of that particular co-op so without further ado i would like to introduce our speaker we're very fortunate to have ellen vera here with us from co-op cincy ellen is the director of development and co-op organizing she was also the co-founder of co-op cincy and a one worker one vote she helped launch co-op cincy's education arm called co-op u and uh prior to joining co-op cincy she was the national organizing coordinator for the manufacturing arm of the communication workers of america and she was the lead organizer for the united food and commercial workers local ellen holds a master's in business administration from northern uh kentucky university and she is also part of a family with mixed immigration status which helps explain her passion for immigrant worker issues along with people of color and their inclusion in worker co-ops and union co-ops so without oh i would also like to share that this this session is being recorded if you have questions type them into the chat and when we come to the end of our presentation we'll go through some of those questions and we'll we may open up the lines to have a more free-flowing discussion so without further ado ellen thank you so much margaret and thank you guys all for having me here today i do apologize if i have a little bit of coughing or raspy voice i've had cope with the past couple days so starting to get over it but i'm really happy to be here today i'm really excited to share with you guys uh what our experience has been at club cincy um it's been hard to believe but 10 years already um that we've been working on forming uh union worker co-ops here um in the u.s so i'm going to share some slides um and i'm going to share a bunch of information but i definitely want to make sure that i'm giving you guys information you guys are most interested in so please don't hesitate to put things in the chat uh and i'll try to make sure i leave enough time at the end to have some discussions so let me get my screen up okay can folks see that okay okay great okay um so you guys heard a little bit about me um i did spend uh 10 actually 11 years in the labor movement before i became a staff member of cobsinc i am one of the co-founders and for i guess i would say maybe the first six to eight years i was doing both co-op organizing and union organizing side by side um so i want to give you a little bit of background on coffeency um so we were founded in 2011. uh we currently have 13 different co-ops in our organizations uh everything from child care to farming uh to construction to you know kind of food and cleaning and different things like that so we've got a whole array of different types of co-ops and we hold do a whole bunch of different types of services um so we'll kind of be going into some of this but um you know in addition to you know creating new co-ops which we do through our co-op development uh arm through co-op u um we also transition existing businesses to work ownership um through our business legacy fund program and then once those businesses are in our network we provide a whole lot of ongoing technical assistance kind of in perpetuity and we also have a loan fund that helps to support all of our our co-op businesses i'm going to go through some of our co-ops right now that are currently affiliated with unions or on kind of the pathway to be affiliated so our harvest farm and food hub is one of the first co-op that we formed they have about 10 to 14 workers again founded in 2012 just an awesome co-op that um you know is really bringing together both you know honoring both land and labor uh and they are union with united food and commercial workers union we also have this energy cooperative uh they are home insulation cooperative and they're just getting into solar right now they were founded in 2014 and currently have eight to ten workers and they are also union with the steel workers we have scentsy cleaning cooperative they are led by a group of guatemalan and mexican immigrants launched in november of 2019 um currently have three full-time workers and two part-time workers and are working to be unionized with the steel workers as well and then we have shine nurture center which is a child care co-op that just recently transitioned to work ownership um they have a total of 12 staff five worker owners to start um and they are probably going to be unionizing with it with the teachers union and then we have a whole bunch of other labor partners that our co-ops are not currently a part of but that are very much deeply connected to us um that we've done different things with over the years or are currently doing things with um so you know for example the afl cio here in cincinnati the head of the afl sits on our board and has um for almost since the beginning of our organization um we've also done strategic campaigns kind of strategic um kind of co-op development a long time alongside campaigns with iuecwa and with the teachers union and have done different things with with afscme at sdiu as well okay so now i'm going to really get into kind of the nitty gritty of kind of why we really believe in in union co-ops um and kind of what is impetus for us of why we feel like this is an important part of our cult development kind of formula so oftentimes people will say well why do you need a union if you guys are the owners of the business why do we want to have a union as a part of this co-op the workers themselves right this is a democratic workplace um so what we found and i would say well we've also this has kind of been based on what mondergon has found um you know one of the most successful group of work-run businesses in the world um is that they really found that they needed to have this space kind of this labor committee this space where people could work through a lot of the issues that were going on inside the business making sure there was kind of reinforcing structures to be able to kind of truly live out their values and so that's what we've really seen like they mandate within you know any of their clubs that have over 50 people that they have this essentially what is a union committee or a labor committee they call it the the social committee within wondergon but it really helps that co-op to scale with their values by having that collective bargaining agreement where we're really spelling out the wages the benefits the working conditions um it's very clear for everybody kind of what that looks like uh and so the other thing is that you know we know democracy is always something that we all really value and that we aspire to but we also know that democracy can can sometimes oppress a minority group uh within the whole right within the majority um and so making sure that that democratic work environment can be balanced out so this might be that you've got a whole bunch of guys in a copy maybe they don't want to give that promotion to that woman that's in that co-op um or or a variety of whole other different things that can happen so just making sure we have checks and balances and that even though we are democratic workplaces that we're really truly living out our values to the fullest uh another thing that's been really important yeah go ahead could you speak a little more slowly for the interpreter yes yes i can yes um so another important piece is uh improved um access to affordable benefits so for our co-ops at our union they're able to get access to health and welfare funds um so having health care plans that they would never be able to access without being a part of that union so these unions are able to go and negotiate down prices and get really good health and welfare plans by because they have so many workers that they bring together um so that's something that a lot of our co-ops have been able to benefit from from because them on their own would not have been able to get those types of plans without being a part of that union some of the other reasons why we feel like union co-ops are really important um so we know that you know kind of the one of the elemental things that we're doing when we create a co-op is we're trying to create a different uh relationship right within that sector we're trying to create more power for those workers um and improved working conditions however one co-op on its own is not going to be able to completely change an industry right so that co-op may want to pay the highest wages that possibly can have the best benefits but if they are not able to change how that industry is is interacting right if they're not able to change the standards in the industry there's going to be a a ceiling they're going to hit they're not going to be able to do more because they have to be able to be competitive so being directly connected to the labor movement where you have a whole group of workers a whole movement right that's pushing to increase wages and benefits and working conditions in that industry they're able to be a part of a broader movement to try and help improve their jobs as well uh and something that they wouldn't be able to do on their own so being part of that kind of platform to act in solidarity with other workers um and you know there's often lots of times lots of different issues and policy concerns that the different workers may feel you know and carry within their co-op but don't always have the time or the energy or even that club network might not have the time or the energy to truly do the advocacy that they want to do on those issues uh and the union can be it can be a platform for that as well so here's a little bit of the structure yeah i keep trying to slow down thank you margaret um so here's a little bit of a picture on the structure and we'll talk about this a little bit more later um but i wanted you guys to kind of get a sense in your mind you know kind of what this looks like so picture this this big circle on the outside this is the whole business right this is this is the co-op itself you have all the workers right and that outer circle everybody is inside that then as you come to the inner circle you have the worker owners so the folks that are truly that decided to become owners of the business from those worker owners typically they are electing a board of directors and the hat that these folks are wearing is they're thinking about the strategy right they're thinking about the long-term plans for this business they're thinking about how are they going to make sure that this business is really going to that next stage or is staying on track to what they're doing typically the board of directors appoints a management team and that management team is about thinking about the day-to-day operations right how are we going to make sure that these plans that we're developing are coming to fruition what needs to be done today tomorrow next week to make sure that we are achieving those goals and keeping us on track and then you have the union committee and so this union committee is also elected from both the workers and the worker owners so the collective bargaining agreement the union committee is representing both workers and worker owners and so these this is the space where we're working on you know inner interpersonal issues where we are really thinking about what is it like as a as a worker in this business what are my wages like what are the benefits like what is it is it is our work being organized in a way that is very ergonomically safe for folks issues like this this is what is kind of being talked about and being considered within that union committee and again we're representing both the workers that are not and worker owners as long as they're not kind of that person or that group of people that can hire and fire so we'll get into this a little bit more later on but i wanted to give you guys an initial picture so now we'll talk a little bit about kind of what we've learned as we work to form union co-ops so it starts with a foundation so oftentimes people uh who have reached out to us over the years you know will say to us okay we want to form union co-ops too but we reached out to our our the labor person that we know and there just wasn't a lot of interest or you know i had one phone call i reached out one time and nothing happened one thing that we think is really important and one thing that we were doing to try and um you know before we got started was to really build deep relationships um within the the labor movement so it's important that you know this is not a one-way street right so this is something that you know has to it's something that's important to happen over time um and it's important that we're not just you know saying hey we want you to be a part of our movement but that we are also reaching out and going to be a part of their movement um so this might mean you know showing up to that that picket line um or going to that protest uh or really understanding kind of what's going on going to their central labor committee meetings so making sure that that is something that is a priority and that is something that you work on over time it's not just a one-time thing and trying to really build that understanding the next piece i would say is that building a dedicated team built on trust um and and core values um so in cincinnati you know we studied the model for about a year um got together a group of folks who are coming from the labor movement from the peace and justice movement movement from the immigrant rights movement and really made sure that we were strong as a team before we got started and we knew that we wanted to create union clubs but that was important to us sorry hold on one second the other thing that we did early on was we created a foundational nonprofit that was committed to creating this network of union worker co-ops that'll help me slow down right so this was really important because it allowed us to to get different types of funding for our co-ops and have the kind of the goal and the plan that we knew this was like long term what we're trying to do so give me one second i'm going to pop in a cough drop certainly understand yeah covet is going through her family right now uh she's got small children and um yeah not easy to deal with so certainly understand and we we certainly appreciate the time that you're taking ellen to uh to speak with us even though you're not feeling well i appreciate appreciate that as well but yeah hopefully we'll be able to keep keep going without too much interruption okay so the vision so as many of you guys probably know um back in 2009 the steel workers in montergon made in this historic agreement to say hey they wanted to create union worker co-ops here in the united states that they really recognized within each other the power and the importance of what each other brought and since there was this kind of social committee in the monarch on co-ops at that point when that had been what may have been um formed unions were completely illegal because of franco having taken over the dictator and so they created this social committee that acted essentially as a union but as they could thought about okay let's bring this to the united states they realized that having this partner with the labor movement was kind of the key to kind of make that that part of it um continue to to expand that part of their model so competency was essentially the first organization in the us to truly bring that that agreement to life so what i would say for us the vision of mondergon being directly connected to them has been really important i think in the development of our network you know it's really important especially as you're talking to labor folks you know they're dealing with typically you have thousands hundreds of thousands of workers and so sometimes when we talk about co-ops and we think about the typical size of a co-op it seems really small for a lot of for a lot of unions so i think being able to speak to what has been able to be achieved you know where you have over 100 different co-ops over 80 000 workers that are in co-ops that have really been able to transform you know a whole region it's something that can really speak to what's the true power of being able to to really bring this model to life and so that has very been very helpful for us to be able to try and help the labor movement get a sense of the potential there right if we truly invest in this if we truly do this to that type of a scale this can have a very transformational impact uh the other piece that we feel like is really important coming from the learning from montagne is what we kind of call the trifecta so they've done a really great job of alongside these co-op businesses creating you know access to financing they have their own bank and education they have their own university so that's something that we have taken very seriously co-op sensei and that's why we now have our own loan fund and we have our own education arm that's working to really truly kind of bring this um co-op culture to life and you know help to create new co-ops the other thing i would just say is that as we all know this is not easy work um this you know building co-op businesses building any sort of business right um in general is very hard and so just persistence persistence versus is key um and i think one thing that's you know been exciting for me is uh you know we've had we had so many of these visions and dreams early on to start to see some of these start to come to fruition um now that we're 10 years in you know i think it's been really exciting but it's not been easy as all of you guys know and so just continuing to keep that vision in mind to kind of know where we're going um and have kind of that vision of what we're building to has been super important to keep us on track and in addition to the to the vision is really taking action so one thing i really appreciate about the the folks who have been involved with and engaged and around co-op cincy is you know we're all about like going out and trying to make it happen um so building the road as we go not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and just really getting started um and then the last thing i'll say on the vision is that interconnected network of co-ops is also critically important um you know we're really starting to see our co-ops start to really support each other um build off of one another uh you know sometimes workers if one co-op is you know needs to lay off some folks they can go work in one of the other co-ops um referring to one another in terms of clients um so it's something that you know i think in terms of just have not not having just co-ops out on their own but being interconnected can be really powerful and it's also though important to think about though not to create too much structure than is what is needed for at that time um so again kind of building the road as we go [Applause] sometimes we can get bogged down and trying to put together kind of that perfect structure and it can keep us from moving forward so we always recommend you won't have enough of that for thought but not so much that you're not getting moving and getting things happening and getting things on the ground i'm going to talk a little bit about actually starting the businesses and the process that we use to do that the first thing as we think about this is just being really thoughtful about the industries and kind of the approach that we want to go with in terms of starting up a new business or a new co-op co-op since these start off started off doing a whole lot of startups part of that was you know because we were new at this but also part of it was our access to capital at that time we're now doing a whole lot more in conversions we feel like both are really important that you know there's going to be times where the market you know you cannot find that right business already that's going that's going to want to become a co-op and you're going to have people who are very passionate and have great ideas and startups are really important but another thing that we've been kind of working on and thinking about um lately is as we think about scale and our you know where our our area of the country in cincinnati is almost exactly the same size as the area in montergon we have 2.3 million they have 2.1 so we want to see you know 80 000 people in cincinnati employed right in co-ops how are we going to get there quickly so we've been doing much more on conversions in terms of trying to get to scale and the other thing i would say is as you're working with labor that is probably where you're going to get a little more traction oftentimes because of like they can see more of the vision about how you're going to get to scale quicker but again both are super important in terms of partnering with labor the earlier you can do this the better and this is going to take on many forms so as i mentioned you know we started that non-profit in the beginning early on and we brought onto that board right away we had three or four labor partners that were on that board and we were very thoughtful about which industries we were starting to build co-ops in it was the industries that we had deep relationships with these labor partners and it with because we knew that we wanted to deepen that relationship so for example i worked for united from commercial workers our first co-op was in food and farming we also had one of the head of the the former head of the building trades was on um our board and he had gone to montergon several years in the 80s and the 90s um and had been so inspired and so he kind of kicked off the movement you know 20 20 25 years ago in cincinnati and so he was one of the initial ones that we wanted to make sure we were trying to do more in that in the building trades and so so sustainer g was again one of the first ones that we started working on and then of course manufacturing was also really important to us because of that partnership with the steel workers um and that one we're still working on but we do have a couple in the pipeline in terms of conversions that hopefully will come to fruition this year some other just ways in which partnering can happen with labor so it can be you know and essentially in that just that representation and the benefits um so you know like i mentioned each of our co-ops that are a labor partner you know have that collective bargaining agreement have access to the health care funds potentially the pension it can also be around strategic campaigns so in cincinnati we were you know privileged to be able to partner with the teachers union um and some some local uh community organizing groups to work on they were working to you know increase the the labor standards for child care workers and so as a part of that while they were doing the traditional organizing they were trying to organize new shops they were trying to organize existing you know parents and child care providers and and staff to really push to make sure that you know they were getting paid living wages we were helping to create a proactive model an example of like this is the type of business we want to have um so as a part of a strategic campaign and we've had a couple other ones that have been similar as some other examples um as you know labor unions can when when the resource resources are there provide staff so kind of lend staff to a project and or resources you know i was able to work uh you know part of my time as a union organizer on creating union co-ops so i was you know at the um but you know it was a donation from my local to to pay for my time to do that um and we've had times where you know different labor unions have given a grant towards co-op development um you know or been able to kind of help bring resources or information about an industry that we're trying to go into and then last but not least i'll mention um around id and potential conversions so another thing that we've spent some time on is creating more of a i would say an early warning network training up some of our local union staff around how to recognize if one of the shops that they currently represent have um you know they could be sold you know sooner they are at risk of going under so recognizing if that owner is older or if they're not really investing you know in their uh equipment and things like that to try and let us us know as a partner ahead of time so that we can you know help them put together a plan much earlier on and potentially help those workers buy that business and also maintain that shop long term for that union so these are some different ways that you know partnering can happen with labor um for example i want to talk a little bit about again the nitty-gritty of bringing these things to life so the most important thing that i'm sure no one's going to be surprised about but is that the team is the key thing to to making a business be successful a co-op business and really thinking about you know any co-op business any of these things are really hard so do we have the grit do we have the passion we have the flexibility to truly bring this this business to life things are constantly changing you know the planning doesn't work are people able to to deal with that change can we pivot can we can we change that we can keep this thing alive and help it thrive this kind of gets back to that same thing but what's the tolerance for risk you know we've we've had some different folks in our co-ops where it hasn't been a good fit because of where the business is and it just is just too stressful sometimes for some people um and also really thinking about having kind of that balance of people with actual industry experience having some of this expertise depending on what you're getting into but also having folks who really fit in terms of attitude and values um you know sometimes you can train up some of that industry knowledge or those skills that people need but you can't always kind of train people you can but it can be harder to really get them to embrace the full value of what you're trying to to build so having that balance so here's a little bit more kind of step by step so from i would say our first five years of doing co-op development we did a we had a lot of uh of learnings we did a lot of things that we did well and a lot of things that we didn't do very well and so kind of out of that you know we have been kind of perfecting and really trying to come up with a clear way to help groups kind of go through that development process as quickly and as effectively and as efficiently as possible and so we developed this three-month training we call it co-op u uh and it's helping teams to you know develop these union work co-op businesses um it's based on lean startup principles so if any of you guys know lean startup it's very much based on hands-on getting out there and and trying things out as early as possible versus sitting down and writing out a really long long business plan before you've really tested something and then it also incorporates insights and practices from cylon which is mondergon's premiere cooperative incubator so we were very very lucky to have uh one of the staff members of sayawan who've been there for over 16 years spend a full month with us in cincinnati and then um additional months corresponding and helping us kind of bring into the key insights and practices that they had learned over their years of developing co-ops so and then in addition to that you know our um our co-op view of course you know involves weekly training so we meet usually two to three hours a week there's one-on-one mentoring outside of that and then we also support kind of the financial modeling and the financing um you know when we can when it's done so here's just a little bit of a picture of how that looks but again starting off with customer discovery and understanding the problem like i said we do lots of interviews or kind of come up with that minimum viable product right that mvp get out there and test and test and come back and refine and experiment um but really try to get to something that's that's workable to start with and so then you know we have templates now people kind of figure out their their cost structure and then after they've really kind of come up with kind of their full business plan and their you know their their full financial kind of plan and then it's about how do we make sure we're kind of putting in all the pieces around co-op governance and participatory management um and then we kind of weave in throughout all of that you know co-op education as well so now we've got a co-op right we formed our car what happens next some of the things that we've learned around building the business um so many of these things i'm sure are not um it's not rocking science but it definitely things that you know we've had to to live it to learn it um but to really balance ideals with financial sustainability that you know we may want to pay you know really really good wages in a certain industry um and we may be able to get there but we also have to make sure that we're doing it in a way that can work for the business um because if there's not a strong business there's not going to be those ideals right that we're living to achieve um so making sure that we do that being careful uh around projections and the amount of debt that a co-op can sustain um we learned this the hard way definitely with our first co-op of wanting to be really careful about ownership and so not wanting to take on at that point we didn't really completely understand the ways of taking on equity without giving them control of the business so um put way too much debt on our first co-op uh which which really weighted down so being really careful about that um and making sure that one you're starting off small enough that a business can truly get its feet under itself and then kind of you know keep iterating and going back and making it that much better that much bigger and stronger um but making sure that you're not uh yeah taking on too much debt to really try to to get somewhere too quickly and then you know weighing that business down another key thing is just really building financial literacy and business literacy within the co-op team um so you know we've had folks in our co-ops that you know have as much of a master's degree to with folks that have like maybe a third grade education and so how do we together in our quad business talk about you know what is going on financially how the business is doing um and how do we truly live out that democratic you know co-op you know how do we really bring that to life uh and so a piece of that is making sure that everybody really understands right what's going on and so using the right tools to do to do that um for you know a lot of our businesses we use something called the great game of business in terms of open book management i'm sure many of you guys have heard of that but you know kind of turning into a game right kind of how this business works and making sure that everybody understands kind of what i do every day how that affects the bottom line but once our co-op business is it's formed and i would say kind of as getting everything together so in all of our our co-ops we have union neutrality language so this is language in their bylaws that spell out that you know the co-op's not going to do anything to um you know to try and turn to kind of keep the workers from forming a union if they so choose um that they're going to be they're going to kind of you know stay out of it and let them let the workers decide whether or not they want to form a union and that they're also going to use a process called card check um to accept a union if that's what the workers decide to do so card check and you guys may have heard this you know in your last meeting but card check um is essentially saying that we don't have to go through a national labor relations board regulated election in order for the co-ops for in order for the workers to form a union that we can just have workers can just sign a card and then you could have a third party check and say yes the majority of the workers in this business have decided have voted through their card that they want to form a union and the reason we do this you know some people might say well why not have an official vote right to bring this union in but the reality is is that the the the process is broken the process in our country about people being able to form a union is very broken it takes a long time there's lots of red tape so we could go through that if we wanted but we found that to really start on a foundation of trust and that this is a different type of relationship this is more about solidarity versus us versus them that he using card check neutrality which is what most unions would request anyways it's a much better place to start off we also work to do education on labor history and labor co-op history making sure that people understand what the union is and kind of what the history is going way way back about unions and co-ops together we will help facilitate meetings between unions and co-ops um so like as that co-op is kind of starting to be ready to you know to form a union within their co-op helping them know who they need to talk to who to get connected to we help with that and we also have a lead union steward within our network that can help orient orient people as well so i'm going to talk a little bit more about building the culture so i've said some of these things but again if we're going to truly live out these democratic businesses and that true yeah you know spirit of being a worker co-op we're willing to build that culture and that solidarity so the way that we do this at constancy is we have what we call regular team meetings um we meet usually every week to every other week with our co-op teams um we go in and help to facilitate you know a meeting where we're going over things like you know the history of these of you know unions and union co-ops you know communication skills conflict management skills leadership skills financial literacy business literacy helping them to build their skills so they can be a really strong team we also meet regularly with their management um so helping you know having a regular meeting with their management team around what are their goals what are the challenges they're experiencing what are the things that we need to do to help them kind of you know become the best and strongest co-op they can be we also facilitate retreats for our co-op teams typically once or twice a year and then on each of our co-ops um there is one seat that is the co-op cincy board seat uh and this is just to kind of make sure that to do a couple of things but one is to make sure that where the club is staying on aligned um with the values of the network but also just to kind of bring that expertise to connect them to to different resources and things and just really keep them strongly a part of the network a little bit about how we do our team meetings um so we always start with some type of personalized check-in um trying to first remind ourselves that we're all people first uh and then you know come in with whatever whatever challenge or different thing that we're working on so i mentioned some of these things but you know the topics are individualized to the co-ops um so typically in that either management meeting or in that team meeting you know we'll brainstorm with them what is it we want to learn about next what what of the different you know pieces of our model you know do we want to dig in more on we also have a little bit of a passport type thing where we kind of check off okay we've gone through these different you know um skills or or topics um and just making sure that we have a regular meeting schedule as much as possible so some of you guys may know we have published our own curriculum um for kind of building this you know this union co-op culture within co-ops um and so it's that it's called the wow book um and it's the worker owner workbook or the manuel so if people want to check that out it is published on lulu um and you know it's got tons of great um activities and different things in it that can be really helpful um when trying to build you know good co-op culture within your co-op yeah so those are some of the you know the the chapters but we go over co-ops in there we go over mondergon we go over labor the union co-op model financial literacy and then just kind of some general things around cooperativism and solidarity and again it's it's a guide you know we don't always go through it like front to back with our co-ops so now we're going to dig in a little bit more to the structure but when it's time for that kind of co-op before my union um we typically wait till there's at least three workers um or two workers and a board or a manager um you know we try to make sure that we're you know picking a labor partner that really makes sense so that might be um based on the industry that the co-op is in or based on the relationship that's there and the understanding of the model and like i said we we have people sign cards um then those cards are validated um if needed by third party but oftentimes you know that cop board will just be like well yeah we believe you they we know the mean of the majority assigned um and then we negotiate the contract um and you know typically kind of go through step by step kind of what are the wages what are the benefits what are the working conditions um you know how do we deal with challenges and issues within the co-op you know is there a grievance process all those types of things so kind of on a day-to-day basis what does the union call committee look like so i would say what's really different in our co-ops around the collective bargaining agreement is that typically when you have a collective bargaining agreement negotiated it is much more of a combative situation you there's not a lot of transparency you don't really know what the company is making um and so you're coming from both sides are typically coming from a place of distrust i would say com very differently very oppositely within our co-op so far it's really been negotiated transparently and collaboratively you know where we're having clear conversations you know about where the business is financially where we want to go in terms of wages and benefits and you know typically it's a conversation like well how can we pay the most we possibly can right but not um making sure that the business can still be strong um so our collective bargaining agreements have been you know very i would say flexible where they need to be um again we've been able to get access to union benefits which has been really important um even things like you know some of the the unions have access to like free online college um you know for that union member and anybody in their family so things like that you know then just you know great things that that workers can can be excited about um and this space is really about again trying to be that defined space and process about working through conflict um [Music] so that's what we truly try to make that committee that that that space uh and then we also really try to help folks get engaged with their local union and activities and issues and again try to make that a two-way street as much as possible so i'm i'm almost done here because i want to open it up for everybody but as many of you guys know um every other year we have what we call the union co-op symposium and this is a big national symposium where we bring in folks from monarchon we usually have labor folks from all over the country folks who are doing co-op development all over the country um but it's about two days of really trying to just get to the best practices on how to create a union co-op movement on good union co-ops so i'll invite all of you guys to join us in 2023 um so you still have about a year and a half but just put that on your calendar it'll probably be in november um which will be in november of 2023. and so i think yes those are all my slides and i would love to answer any questions or talk about any of this stuff um if you would like to know that was wonderful ellen thank you and and thank you for for working through these and i apologize to the interpreters i sometimes i'm such a fast talker so i'm sorry i've had to do it myself i sometimes have to interact i kick myself because i know i'm like why am i doing this we had a comment from john mcnamara saying that that that symposium that you have extended an invitation is one of his favorite co-op gatherings no thank you john mine too so i don't see any questions in chat so why don't we open it up for and i see john mcnamara he has his hand up sure yeah i just have a comment so john for those of you who may not know me uh northwest club development center also on the union co-op council for the us federation i guess one thing i've been thinking john speak slowly for the interpreter sorry about that um yes so one of my i guess it's more of a reflection i've had recently and and thinking more about but also and maybe you can just comment on it and i had to step out for a little bit so you might have even covered it so if i'm being redundant just tell me um but one of the things i think is kind of valuable about the union co-op relationship is that for worker co-ops there are so many policies that like a consumer co-op doesn't necessarily deal with they just turn over to management but in worker co-ops right the board has to write a lot of things like payroll and or personnel policies and stuff but the union actually really helps streamline that and actually helps the board be able to focus more on the bigger strategic issues because the late collective bargaining agreement really covers a lot of the policy development in a worker co-op through that model and it actually locks it down for so you're not constantly rehashing the same issues month after month yep no you're you're very very right but yeah you you know you can obviously fashion your collective bargaining agreement you know more or less complex but um definitely having a lot of things spelled out in black and white so people know what the policy is about different things is really helpful to have it um and can help avoid right a lot of issues that can happen sometimes okay helen when you talk about the team how many people and who is included in that team yeah so i would say like you know in your startup as kind of who is that initial group of folks that are coming together you know it might only be two or three but who are the folks who are going to really bring that co-op to life um you know in your in your team after the co-op is up and running um you know we really look at the whole like all of the workers in the business um but you know so i would say in like in our team meetings we as much as possible try to include all the workers because we're really trying to get as many of them as possible to become work for owners but if we only meet with and if we only train the existing worker owners the likelihood of other folks joining is going to be a lot lower so um so the team is is changing right it's hopefully growing over time but that's who we think of when we send a team and that team is together was it a three-month process just for the learning and then then it extends out as you're planning the business yeah so yes so the the initial for co-op you if they go through co-op u um is a three-month um process we meet for 12 to 14 weeks uh and we usually do like two two to three hours a week and then they have outside you know assignments and things that they're supposed to do um but i would say that that's mostly for our startups um with our the calls that we're transitioning we try to get them started off you know almost immediately in team meetings and things like that hi ellen this is frank zutera hi frank how are you um i wanted to just ask if you could maybe give any more detail or information about the um the union community that might be resistant to the idea and if you had any experiences yeah i mean we've not had any unions that have just been like no like we think union cops are awful and we're going to fight against you or something like that we've not had anything like that um i think there's been you know there could be times like let's just say for example you're gonna build a grocery co-op and you've got you know a co-op that's representing existing grocery workers like you could see where like there might be a sense of like you're gonna be competition for that existing grocery and so that that could be potentially an issue there although hopefully and i know this is the way my local was was they didn't see it as an issue it was you know we represent all grocery workers and so we want to see more grocery workers and so we're not concerned about that but you you could see that if if the shops that they currently have felt threatened you could see that um i think more so what we see is that the labor movement is so you know underfunded and so under attack that they just either can't most of them just don't have the resources to spend time working on union co-ops um like it's something that's like oh yeah that'd be nice or or just don't even have the bandwidth to try and really understand uh because they're so busy trying to put out fires and just you know defend what they currently have um so i think that's what we've seen more than anything is that there's just they just don't have the bandwidth to sometimes be a partner um you know on things a great presentation thank you um i was tantalized by you know your mention of uh spending so long with cyalon coming in to do trainings with you i was curious as we dive a little bit more into like some of the insights that they had shared with you yeah yeah i mean it's kind of woven in you know throughout the course um but i think you know i mean one of the biggest things that they talk about and you know again is just the importance of of the people right the the team that's bringing it to life that you could have the best business idea you could have all the financing in the world but that the team those people are really the multiplier um but they're the ones that are going to really bring it to life um so i think that was definitely something that they hit home a lot um if anybody came to our 2015 um union club symposium uh you probably met armen who was one of the almost it's not almost the initial one of the initial founders of mondergon but i i love his um imagery that he uses about like how a clock comes to life and starts off as a gas and then as you get more and you know more and more clear about the ideas and whatnot it becomes a liquid and then you keep you know working on it and testing and making it stronger it becomes a solid um so things like that like those types of concepts and i think you know some of their great things around like building the road as you go and just really being about getting out there and trying things out um but different you know pieces like that i think were really um you know key about how they incorporate that into into that curriculum and i was only going to mention sorry just one other thought on what um frank had asked earlier i think the other place that people need to be careful about and where we've seen some issues in terms of there being some animosity between unions and co-op developers um are when a club developer might be working with a company but maybe either not realize that the company's already union um or maybe not engage the union enough um so this is i'm talking about in terms of converting existing businesses to worker ownership because what um has happened in some instances is that that company or could come off as like that it's almost like an anti-union or a union busting attempt that we're gonna form we're gonna form a co-op and and then the the the labor partner might not understand or it might be the actual intention is to get rid of that union they might think that that's what's going on we're going to turn you all into owners and there's no longer going to be union um so i would just say that i think it's really important for co-op developers to you know definitely if you're going to convert existing businesses make sure you know whether or not that business is union and then make sure you very very early on are going and talking to that labor partner and actually to that labor partner not just the workers who are in the union but the actual representative for that labor partner so that there's a clear understanding that this is you know not about trying to get rid of the union in there and i would think would also just be important to make sure you have a clear conversation with the owner to make sure that they're clear that you know if this transition to worker ownership that doesn't mean that the union just disappears so let me just a little cautionary thing i would say as well well thanks so much ellen for for this presentation and for doing it while sick i hope you get some like good rest i'm not feeling much better you probably can't tell from other coughing but i am i feel much better i'm glad um yeah i mean this is just such an amazing presentation and um having come into the worker co-op ecosystem on a national level right before the pandemic started i haven't you know haven't been able to come to cincinnati haven't been able to meet a lot of folks in real life or like uh visit around at other union co-ops but i'm curious um having having been through this contract process with a couple different different co-ops and also different unions if there are um sort of common sticking points that come up that are sort of unique to the situation in bargaining like whether just like there are particularly challenging pieces to navigate um just because of the logistics of a worker co-op and that unique situation and if like both from the negotiation perspective but also just from like explaining they're having the union be on the page that they need to be to work on union on co-op level and not like boss worker antagonistic relationship level yeah i mean i would say we've been lucky and we've obviously done a lot of groundwork for a long time so we haven't really had a labor partner just clueless of like what it is we're creating so we haven't had to you know have like that i guess that fundamental of a conversation for a long time um trying to think if there's we've also been very you know lucky that so you know by including you know some of our labor partners on our board by you know having them be around this a whole lot they also understand like kind of where our businesses are at in terms of like financially like is it feasible for them to actually pay into that health and welfare fund like you might see that typically a union would be like well no there has to be like this is what's you know typically in the in the industry is this health you know healthcare piece and that you're typically making at minimum this wage um but our partners have definitely like they've been hearing about how the businesses are doing on a pretty regular basis and so you know and we come in with open books right so we show them like this is what we're thinking this is why um and it's not just like you know they're saying we want three dollars more an hour and we're saying well we're only going to give you 25 cents like it's it's just an open conversation right so so yeah so i'd say like that you know we've not had issues around that so much per se i mean and i think on our end we understand that like things that they would typically want in a contract like so we're we're in a not right to work state which means you know once the workers democratically decide they want a union every worker who joins has to join the union so we don't you know our clubs don't fight for the like against those provisions of like you know clothes shop or things that would be real sticky points or do you know dudes check off things like that so yeah i would say in general they've been really just like helpful around us trying to make sure when we understand what's going on in the industry and like you know our labor contracts have been flexible enough that um you know it's not hamstringing the co-op in any way that would be um you know a real challenge i think for that question that was a good question there's an another question in the um in the chat and it asks with um with for the startups the startup co-ops that you're working with that as with many startups there are limited funding and to um limited funds for startup services um how is co-op cincy able to accomplish this with some of the groups that you work with for the startups yeah yeah startups are so hard for so many reasons um i mean we've definitely capitalized our cops in every way imaginable but um i would say that what's really been great in the past several years is that we've you know been a member of the seed commons which is a national financial cooperative um and that's allowed us to tap into nationally raised dollars but also raise some of our own funds locally so we've been able to get some grants from some local churches and nonprofits um to just have access to more flexible startup capital um so i think that's those two pieces i think have been the most impactful in terms of trying to to raise working capital and then i think the other thing we've just gotten smarter about how to help guide groups to again start off with that minimum viable product um so i think sometimes we used to have really ginormous grand plans with some of our startups like you know we need to raise a half a million dollars or or whatnot um to get something started and so we've been able to kind of as we've learned you know be able to help folks figure out okay what's what's the smallest most valuable way we could start get that going and then keep iterating uh so i think that combination has been helpful another question that i have from you know co-op development geeky side um i see that in the co-op cincy uh you've got a number of co-ops in a number of different industries would you ever form multiple co-ops in the same industry or would you have one co-op getting larger yeah so within our co-op network we have like an agreement that they all sign that they won't get into directly competing against each other um and that they'll first you know before we'd even let another group in like that co-op that's already in that sector would need to like together as a part of the network we'd have to approve them coming in and make sure it was not like a direct competition um but i think it depends on on the business so like for child care for example like we might have one child care center in one part of town but would be totally not a problem to have another child care center in another part of town um but it might be if we were you know sustained energy is getting into solar like it probably wouldn't make sense to bring another residential solar company you know directly in um to the network like that but there might be it might make sense for standard duty to acquire them or something like that or merge in some way so i think it depends i mean we're you know we're definitely looking at building out sectors so like that's part of our um our conversions plan is we kind of have an acquisition program and so we're going out right now in construction for example and trying to build a portfolio of like residential construction companies um so that they will be able to kind of build off of each other but not compete with each other directly so for example we'll have sustain energy that does you know residential installation and solar and we might have a roofing company that does roofing in windows um something like that yeah thank you thank you matthew asked a good question in the chat matthew why don't you just open up your mic sounds good yeah ellen i was curious so for co-op you i know you kind of mentioned that over time you've gone more from startup to conversion has it also kind of coincided with like a large changing in the curriculum and like the experience that they have going through co-op view if there are startups versus conversions uh well i would say we still do startups like we definitely still do startups co-op u is mostly geared towards startups it can also work towards conversions if they're going to try to start like a new product line or something like that because it's really about creating a business plan um what i would say with the conversions that's our business legacy fund program and we do you know we work with them very specifically like we do help them make sure that they have a clear business plan and a clear transitions plan but they don't usually go through the co-op use so we kind of we do keep them somewhat separate i have another question and i'm just so thankful that you're here ellen to answer these questions um i was i was working in a sector the paper mill industry and we ran into a situation where one of the unions was quite concerned about worker co-ops or a multi-stakeholder co-op being confused with an esop and that that particular union had a bad experience with an esop any um any suggestions for how to um well first of all your experience with what you have what you have heard about unions and their experience with esops and then how to how to come to a mutual understanding yeah yeah yeah no there's definitely been a lot of experience in the labor movement um to have like bad experiences with with esops um and not you know esop the employee stock ownership plans you know that's often because they would be used as a way to essentially like like they would use the pension of the workers to create the esop um and then oftentimes they were bad deals and these businesses wouldn't do well and they would essentially just drain all the the capital that the workers had actually accumulated all the wealth that they'd accumulated over time so they have good reason right to have a lot of concern when they hear esops because that happened many many times um you know what what i would say in terms of trying to deal with that i mean you know we definitely like we will do both worker co-ops and democratic esops we haven't done in democratic usa you know yet um but i think we just try to make sure that our labor partners really understand you know that there's esops just the difference in way that around their structure that there's esops that can pretty much act as a typical company um that it might be about profit sharing but it all just depends on how strong that business and that businesses financials are um and that it's really unfortunate that those things happen and there's you know in are many cases where it doesn't make sense uh and just the ways that we try to you know keep those types of things from happening um but i would say you know most of the time we're talking about worker co-ops and so um we talk about the fact that this is not a retirement plan this is a way of governing the business uh and really try to relate it to you know it's like within a labor you know the labor movement you're trying to make sure that your workers have as much control as much power as possible and so this is you know kind of taking that you know union contract hopefully to like a whole another level right where it's like not only do you have control of your wages benefits and working conditions but actually hopefully you have control over that whole business itself right and you're truly able to build wealth that way so just trying to try to go back to the basics about what is a worker cop you know this is about governance and about truly giving workers the control um and pointing out some of the differences but but also recognizing that they have a founded um concern there so thank you matthew you have another good question go ahead thanks margaret yeah so i'm curious i mean you've mentioned very clearly about like the ways you've kind of yeah i've been very proactive to teach union history as well as co-op history do you find that yeah that's like the label labor partners are also interested in taking that piece up as well and kind of teaching their membership more about co-ops and has that kind of thereby then connected into more conversion opportunity because they've got such a broad reach of folks who are now hearing about co-ops yeah i mean i think we definitely there's still tons of room for deepening the partnership i mean there there has been times where education has happened like that but it's not like a regular occurrence um in cincinnati so i think you know we currently actually have a committee a subcommittee right now that's working on how do we deepen the relationship between you know our labor movement and our co-ops here in cincinnati but i think something like that is you know wonderful and we would love to see right that this is part of the education that like what i would always say is for me as a somebody who was an organizing director was like this was another tool for me in my tool bag like i my kind of you know what i was tasked with doing was trying to lift up the wages and benefits and working conditions of all these workers in the sector and so i wanted to have all my tools at my disposal sometimes that might be like a fight back you know campaign sometimes that might be organizing you know new workers into the union in a traditional company but also i felt like it should be proactive right that i could be able to go out there and help create businesses in that sector um to help lift up you know the the standards in the industry um so i think you know i think there's a lot of room for the labor movement to do more and to become more integrated into this movement i mean i would love to see you know you oftentimes in different you know labor unions you have like a fund that they do for political work they have a fund that they do for organizing well there should be a fund that they do for union club development right like in my mind i feel like this should be another thing that's you know we have a department on organizing we have a department on representation we showed a department on union co-op you know organizing as well so that's my vision where i'd love to see it go at some point but but we're obviously not quite there yet so ellen do you see any i just i'm fascinated do you see any any uh potential industry sectors that are on the horizon that are that are really uh have a lot of potential for unique co-ops yeah well i think that the work that has been done with the taxi co-ops i think is really exciting and they've you know been able to organize hundreds of workers you know into union cop taxis and in different places um also the main lobstermen like they've been able to organize lots and lots of lobstermen into into the machinists um i don't know i feel like i feel like if you did have a union truly embrace this on a national level as a part of a national strategic part of their campaign and you do see some signs of that within like seiu for example um you know in things like child care um i feel like you could have a really big impact if the if the union put you know lots of resources behind it like they do with some of their national campaigns um but i do think that you know that this can work for any industry that it's not you know there's not like a specific industry that is necessarily better than others thank you um another question oh another question came in from debbie is there a point in the development process of the co-ops that you consider to them to be fully the business to be fully graduated or fully fledged or will there always be a an association with co-ops and c well definitely for the ones that are in the greater cincinnati area we we feel like there's real value from being connected together in a network um our co-ops give back 10 of their net profits to the whole to then be able to go into new co-op development you know research and and design i mean kind of they get to decide where that money goes um and so you know we feel like like that is really powerful and we like that's part of how mondragon has been able to be so transformative in their area of the country so we always tell them you're going to be with us for perpetuity and that's the hope right um in terms of if they've like graduated we you know we do kind of have like in our minds kind of a rubric of kind of where we see our co-ops in terms of their development um but i wouldn't say that there's i guess i would say that we have within our network uh we would say try to remember the terminology we use but we have like kind of our full members and then our members that are um i guess still in process and so they have to have at least two full-time worker owners before they can like officially become like voting full voting members of the network um but uh that's i think there's and then they have to that i guess that's the that's the main thing that we judge them on in terms of are they like truly able to kind of like are they functioning as a business and able to to join the network at a at a voting um as a voting member they're they can still be a part of the network but in terms of being a voting member we require that they have at least two full-time worker owners will co-op cincy um always have a seat on the board of of the member co-ops yep that is the plan yeah they um you know kind of that person's kind of imbued with the power to make sure that the values the co-op values are being followed um and again it's just that kind of connector to all the things that are going on in the network and that coach made change it's not always necessary the same person but it it is somebody from the organization or somebody that we kind of appoint we've got a whole advisory board as well explain the network a bit more relation to the worker model um yeah so well let's uh there's a question could you explain the network a bit more in relation to the worker model that was presented yeah so the network um it's it's definitely kind of slow down yeah it's it's based off of the kind of of mondragon of how they've done their network um so each co-op you know elects a representative that then right now is put on a committee within co-op cincy's board eventually it'll be its own co-op it'll be its own kind of spin-off co-op of co-ops where each of the co-ops will you know own that organization um and they each get back 10 of their net profits once they're profitable only 250 if they're not profitable yet and then they get to decide you know where that money goes in terms of you know does it go towards our loan fund does it go towards um supporting the support that we give to existing co-ops um at one point they had hired a marketing consultant to help them all do a better job with digital marketing um but the the network is really there to help provide them you know the training help them build the co-op culture and keep them you know supported and in contact with one another um and help facilitate as much inner cooperation as possible uh and so the members the workers are not necessarily members of the network in that sense i mean they can come to everything but the actual voting members are the co-ops themselves and they you know appoint a delegate from each co-op more of a federated relationship sure yeah sure i wanted to read a comment um because this has been recorded and it's from diane saying i'm trying to start a home cleaning cooperative in portland oregon and i'd really love to bring this union co-op vision to the project i'm looking for all kinds of connections allies and mentorship if anyone would like to connect and she provided her email so yeah well i would say is it quinn is that who quinn diane diane so i would say you definitely want to connect with um one the one project uh if you haven't already i think it's the oregon new economy project because the folks who have started that are very very much connected to the network and or to the union co-op movement um and they are you know working to create a whole network of union co-ops there so if you're not connected email me and i'll put my email in the chat because i'll make sure you get connected all right principle number six cooperation amongst cooperatives and co-op developers totally any other questions or comments okay ellen do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with us um well i'm always interested in what people are working on so i don't know if people even want to throw in the chat or say anything but i'm yeah i'm curious you know if there's any feedback or what people are working on um and i guess the only thing i would just say is that you know this is constantly a work in progress and you know we are you know there's a lot that we are still working to try and develop and do well um so i think there's a lot of room for growth in this but i do feel like for many reasons i think you know having a labor committee within your co-op that's truly making sure we're balancing out and living out our ideals um i feel like is really important so i feel like that's just an awesome thing that this model has brought to the movement of for for cooperators um and you know i think we're constantly trying to work through how do we you know we need to be a part of a broader movement as the co-op movement um and so how to do that well you know it's just important and so yeah i appreciate you guys all being here today so very good this is great does anyone want to unmute and and share brilliant projects that they're working on hey this is quinn diane thoreau i'm from portland oregon i'm the person doing the um cleaning co-op or attempting to i have a small cleaning business going that i started about six months ago that i'm was thinking i would eventually convert into a co-op but i'm thinking i want to bring more people on sooner rather than later because it's a lot of work i have this kind of vision that i'd like to share real quick of um having this cleaning co-op be kind of a vehicle for um educating my transgender community about cooperatives while also serving my transgender community and eventually hopefully giving all of my french jobs um and i'm hoping to like eventually like grow this into a cooperative book of cooperatives um kind of primarily by and for trans folks i'm not exclusively by any means but kind of centering transgender folks because um you know we're under a lot of financial duress a lot of us have been facing poverty for a long time and a lot of us are under attack in um certain states and so i really want to use you know cooperative models to build up our wealth and well-being and liberation um so i guess i wanted to say all that and share that real quick um and i really would love to connect with other folks who um share this because i know this is kind of like a niche within a niche within a niche of a vision so i'm just looking for my people out there okay so thank you so much awesome awesome love love your vision and totally need to connect you to the oregon folks because i think they will love it too and i think you're right this is such hard work that you want to have a team you want to have people around you who are supporting you um but that's awesome thank you for doing what you're doing thank you for that quinn diane matthew did you want to uh you put something in the chat oh yeah i was just sharing a little bit about what i'm up to uh yeah so i'm founder of the georgia cooperative development center so yeah we're proud members of the cw network um but i also i also live directly in the co-op space of working at savvy cooperative as a business director so i get to uh yeah see it from sort of the the 30 000 square foot you know or a foot level but also like kind of at the ground as well so really appreciate all this experience and and everything you should about co-op u is is going to be very helpful for us because we're working on our own co-op academy right now so very interested actually and purchasing that uh manual you mentioned come on good luck could you tell us what savvy co-op is again matthew oh certainly margaret yeah savvy co-op is a multi-stakeholder platform cooperative owned by medical patients and we we facilitate mostly qualitative research primarily with pharmaceutical companies but by centering the ownership of patients and the ownership of their data and the ability to uh receive patient dividends potentially related to the value of medical data awesome so yeah it's a lot um i'm so fascinated by the platform co-op space and you know i see that becoming more of the conversation all the time as well so yeah always interested in that one too anyone else not this has been a wonderful discussion thank you so much ellen for your time thanks for having me thank you to the interpreters cooperative of madison for the awesome job you do with translation and making this accessible to a wider audience thank you and please if you want more our third in the series will be next friday and ellen alluded to it the uh the toolkit that has been developed for working in the union co-op space so thank you everyone for joining us and this will be recorded in both english and spanish so look for the recording thank you