Michael Loftus completed 3 Landscaping Acquisitions E:65 Top M&A Entrepreneurs

Computer. Welcome to the top M&A entrepreneurs today. My guest is Michael Loftus. Michael runs a company called Conner Landscaping. He's made 3 acquisitions to date, and I don't think he's slowing down. So welcome, Michael. Hey, thanks for having me on, man. Yeah, so tell us how this all started. I mean, where, where, what were you doing before you decided I want to do, I want to acquire a company. So I started mine from scratch actually, so it's kind of contrary to a lot of these guys that start by buying, um, not intentionally, that's just the path I chose is just go start it. Um, and I kind of hit a wall with kind of growing where I what I had, um, and being in California, there's kind of some Some issues with growing organically that maybe weren't here 20 years ago, um, in the landscaping space as far as, you know, really a lack of good employees, um, you know, and the space really getting smaller cause there's a lot of big money coming into it. Yeah, because they like that reoccurring revenue. It's huge, and I mean that there's a good and bad in that, you know, there's a lot of competition, but also, you know, if you Uh, put together a pretty decent sized company, the multiples are, are pretty damn good. I, it depends. I mean, I've seen. Um, I think once you get to obviously that million uh 8 number, that's always a big one, but I, I knew a guy that sold his company who was doing over a million with the right overhead, that's the other caveat I've seen, like, we're like, oh, we make a million bucks. I'm like, well, you don't have the right office staff, you're not paying a general manager 150K, you know, there's a lot of like, you gotta have your pieces in a row, but he had those and I think got over 5 million and he got 5.5. 5X multiple on a landscaping company. That's amazing. Uh, but he was big, you know, he was, he was doing like, I don't know, like very big for MySpace, like 10 million, making one, but a real one where like he literally was working 10 hours a week, not, you know, I'm working 70 and I wanna act like I make a million, but reality, you haven't hired the right people yet, you know. Yeah. So I, I wanna go back to the employee shortage or so you having difficulty finding people to do the jobs that you can trust and do hard work? Uh, it's there's definitely a shortage. Um, I'm lucky I've retained a lot of employees that I had, uh, especially the good ones, um, but yeah, there's, there's just a huge, it's kind of like an invisible bidding war for people. Um, you know, some of these companies like they need people, like they're gonna like, what are you getting paid? I'm getting $17. I'll give you $18. And there's a lot of guys that will jump for that dollar. Some of them will come to you and like give you basically an opportunity to keep them like, hey, like this other guy literally could be at the gas station, like they don't care, like they, they know what they're looking for, um, and sometimes you can match it and keep them, sometimes you're like, I can't pencil it. You know, I understand if you gotta go, you know, it's not a personal thing. I think some of these guys take it personal, um, but in reality, these guys are on the knife's edge. Living in California, making that much money. I mean, it's, you're, you're right at the knife's edge. Yeah, uh, so when you started, you, you launched your own, uh, landscaping company just organically, and then what did you do? You said, hey, I'm not growing fast enough. I'm gonna go start acquiring a couple of others. Yeah, so I, I think I did organic for the 1st 3 to 4 years, um, and learned a ton, learned a lot about the industry. I mean it was, didn't know much about it before I got in, um, and did plenty of learning, and then I was like, you know what, like, I had no idea business myself even existed, so I was like, I had a random thought I'm like I'm gonna just Google like landscape business for sale. And of course Best Buyal is like one of the top ones that comes up, and I must have spent like 3 full days just looking at myself like, and not even just that landscaping, you know, like how much the uh Jiffylube sells for or, you know, just these random like this roofing company, like, man, that's huge like holy shit, like, and then how much they want for these companies. I just thought it was fascinating, um, and I don't obviously don't have M&A experience, but I kind of was like, OK, well, what's the next step and I saw a few little ones. I saw one that was around the corner from me. So just did the, you know, fill up the NDA, you know, talk to the broker, go meet the seller, um, you know, that kind of stuff, and how big, tell me about like the deal size. What was like? I mean the first one, they were doing like half a million bucks and making 100-ish. Yeah, um, and knowing what you know because you're in the industry, do you know that that was in the range? Yeah, that, that was what I was looking for. Um, I also Didn't really want to go grab a bunch of debt before I really knew what I was doing. That's the way I looked at it. Uh, I'm not dead averse, but I'm also kind of careful. Um, and so I was like, hey, I'm gonna look at something that I can actually swing by myself, um, and not You know, take on a ton of debt before I'm really ready for it. Yeah, let me, let me get a sense of where were your size of your company at that point? Was it, did you hit a million and top line? Yeah, I was like a million. 34, and I did that all organic and then so this guy would have taken me to like 2 million bucks, um, and I think he had like 67 guys or something like that, um. And then the other two were a little bit bigger than that one, like they're like 70-800 um with some more people, so yeah, I kind of still stayed in that ballpark, but Definitely stayed under the um The group of guys that are getting those big multiples, um, just that's, that's still what, uh, 123, multiples. Yeah, so yeah, we're, we're in the nothing more than 3. Yeah, nothing more than 3, OK, um, at this size, and I think once you get past, once you get to I think 400, 500 grand, you're gonna start getting into the 45s, um. So I think it's kind of a weird sweet spot. The big guys don't want to mess with these, doesn't mean they're not good. Um, and I think there's a lot of talk I've seen on Twitter at least about, you know, don't buy small companies, don't buy small companies. I'm like, I, I agree, but if you're already in that industry, um, they're, they're great as boltons, but I wouldn't buy it individually, that makes sense. Um. Yeah, you're buying a job. I mean, Michael, I, the conversation I had with Michael Gurley, who you've already met, I mean, he bought a whole bunch of hyper niche small $1 million dollar top line companies. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and mine were small, but they had amazing employees, just phenomenal people who still work for me. I think I kept of the three companies I bought. I kept 90% of the recurring revenue accounts and 90% of the employees. Yeah. So you, all those three companies you looked at a biz by sell you bought. So, um, two of them were biz by sell. The third one was biz by sell, but the broker reached out to me. So what I did, this is before I think they cracked down on Bizal was probably 343 years ago, yeah, something like that. Um, I actually put out a I paid to have a spot on business by sell and what I did, I was like a, this is like I wanted, like, hey, I'm looking for a commercial landscape business, you know, even between, you know, I, I figure I put like 800 to You know, a few 100 grand, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I kind of like I put it in the for sale section, so I kind of like backdoored in, um, and I don't know, I was like, I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna try it like they have nothing to lose. It cost like $25 to put in there like see what happens. Sure enough, a guy who was selling his business in LA. The broker was selling a big property management company for a family, and one of the sons also had a landscape business. Who he is selling as well, but it was kind of like a like a small thing that he had to sell for them. He normally sells this bigger stuff, right? And he's just like, all right, like we're gonna find, like, he's like finds me, he's like, let's come meet, let's see, see if it's a good match, and he was just like a noble, no bullshit, no nonsense, like, hey, this is a price, um, you know. Does that work for you? I'm like, yeah, I think I beat him up like 500 or something and made an offer and he's like, that's great. He's like, we're not gonna have to go on it. Let's just get it done. So actually, yeah, so that was just like they were trying to unload some assets for for some bigger portfolio that where this just it was like an add-on or something. This was a small piece of it, um, of a family's kind of uh deal that they were kind of selling off. Uh, they weren't selling the real estate, but they're selling their businesses. Um, and he was kind of in charge of selling the big one, but this was just kind of an afterthought, um, and I kind of fit the bill. I already had the licensing, I already had all the stuff. I kind of was on the industry already, which made it easier. Yeah. How many clients came with that business? Um. like 50, 50 and 90% stayed with you. Did you raise prices, keep the prices the same when you that's a good question. So I, every year on all of my recurring revenue properties, which I, I have like 200 or so, uh, we do do a cost of living increase every year. It's only like 4 or 5%. Um, what you gotta do because if you don't. Uh, it's just like human nature. Like if you, so that, that too, um, and also fuel is through the roof and I have like 24 trucks, so that adds up, uh, that the fuel my fuel bill went up like I think $6000 a month. Uh, yeah, not doing anything different, like we're running the same amount of trucks, same distances, everything. So when you go take your truck to QuickTrip or something, now it's $100 to fill up to at least and it's all these trucks and, you know, uh. It's, it's another thing. It's like being in business like they don't, you know, they don't, they don't tell you what to do, right? I'm, I'm like picturing this in my head. So there's a bidding war for good workers, 1819, 20 bucks. There's prices of gas and expenses just going up. How are you keeping up like charging more, and is there elasticity when you say, hey, customer, I know we, I know we charge you this month, but inflation just went up 8% and May that's, that is a good question. So I kind of, all my all my contracts are net they're 30 day contracts technically, but they're really sticky, no one gives you. Uh, it's kind of like, you know, a Netflix subscription. You can get rid of it anytime you want, but how many people really do? Not many people. Uh, it's kind of the same mentality. Um, it's, it's yours to lose kind of thing, um, if you screw up, make mistakes, dentist, you gotta like not show up. I mean, that's like how you lose them, um. But I, when gas went and so I'm in Orange County, California, and gas went from $4 which I was like, oh this is like not cheap. When it went up, started going up to that $556 range, I was like, you know what, my gas bill has gone up $6000. I'm not gonna take a 6000 bath on that. So what I ended up doing was, I mean, I just made this up. I took The Delta and I divided it up through my properties and actually sent a little surcharge. So if let's say my monthly billing rate is $1000. For a property. I went and said, hey, um, gas fuel surcharge as a as a line item underneath, you know, $45. But I did that across all my accounts. I think I did like either $25 or $50 you know, something like that, and I ended up making up that difference. Um, and even my girl who runs my office who's great, she's like, Mike, are you sure? Like, you know, it's gonna make these people mad and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, listen, I'd rather deal with 4 or 10 of the 200 people that we do work for calling me and crying, or maybe one leaves or what, I'd rather deal with that than take a 6 grand bath. And continue to like that's every month. That's not like a one time deal. Yeah, no kidding. Um, so we did that and I had only one person even say anything to us, and he was like, hey, is this temporary? I'm like, yeah, until gas goes back to a normal rate, which is, I don't know, 4 bucks, um. Yeah, uh, for at least another 3 years. So, you know, I, I, you know, ended up being that I think we end up billing like $6500 more just on these little fuel charge deals, but they're spread out. So, you know, the client's like, yeah, $50 I get it, gas is crazy. No, not a big deal, like, no problem. But, you know, if you don't do it, like you're just gonna lose money, like you're just not gonna make it. So that's how I've kind of kept up with it and we, we just did our cost of living increase, um, and we did like 4.5%. It's, you know, you're battling a lot of different fronts, you know what I mean? But I think that's any business. I don't, I don't think that's unique to what I'm doing. So how did that, that, that was your first acquisition to bolt on to your, did, did you do anything with the whoever was running the legal or accounting, did those stay come or come with the business? So, they had um You know, they had an account that they've been using forever who just was nice but just really slow, um, which I actually found a woman that does all my accounting stuff now who's really quick, really good, has a good team with her, um, that kind of like, I fold these into mine. So basically like everyone it's an asset sale, everyone gets fired on Friday, they're hired by me on Monday, um. And they're basically employees of my LLC now, so I don't really take on their LLC when I buy the company. You just buy the assets, exactly, and, you know, rehire all the people, even though they, the guys don't feel like they got fired because I mean it, it's just a legality like we change, OK, you're on my payroll now. Um, so I've had a, I had a really good uh woman doing the accounting for me the last few years and attorney wise, I have, um, My dad's had a business attorney for 25 years. He's really good and who's your dad? My dad, yeah, is it Ed Loftus? Ed Loftus is, yeah, cause I, I noticed the connection in there, um, you know, I, I was just gonna make a point that a lot of people go in wanting to buy these businesses and thinking these attorneys and legal team are excited about selling it. They're not because they're actually losing a client. Mhm. So they may drag their feet or not want to. Yeah. Yeah, I've, I've seen attorneys screw these people left and around different deals. I mean, I had one at the literally the 5 yard line, uh, about 6 months ago. Um, great, tuck in right down the street from me, uh, everything to go, me and the seller had good connection. Um, you know, the numbers lined up, you know, my business is like 8 times as big as his, so, you know, the seller note wasn't a big deal. Um, but, you know, he brought this attorney and who didn't like the collateral, and that was enough for him to not do the whole deal. Um, even though I even let him speak to the three other sellers that I had completely paid back, uh, which I didn't want to do. But if that's what it was gonna take to get the deal done, like, here, here's the guy's names and numbers. Give him a call, you know, and that ended up not being enough. Yeah, so this first deal that you did added what like 400,000 top line, something like that, 500,000 top line. So you're now right around. $2 million. $2 million on. And then Ibida was proportional, the same. Yeah, cause I, I still didn't have office staff at that point, so I was still doing everything by myself. Yeah. All right, well, that's cool, and it was there kind of a bump in the road where it was kind of crazy for a couple of months, 34 months? Oh yeah, I was shitting bricks, man. I, well, I wired all the money I'd ever saved, to be quite honest with you, um, to have as the down, um. And yeah, you put your money back. Oh yeah, uh, and that's just my personality. I, I just go all in. I'm just, I'm gonna go for it. And, you know, I was like, you know, I'm not gonna have this not work for a lack of effort. That's never been my issue. So I just went in there, I'm like, told the guys, I'm like, hey, you guys are working there. I'm like, hey, just give me a chance. I know you don't know me, um, you know, but give me a shot and I think you guys are gonna be surprised. So. Uh, and they did, and it all worked out and then everybody stayed and I've kept, you know, most of the business and most of the guys and Did you reach out to all the clients and say, hey, there's a new owner? Yeah, we sent out a letter, uh, kind of informing them, hey, we've acquired the business, blah blah blah. We retained all the employees and we always make sure we put that in there. Um, you know, if you'd like to do an on-site visit and meet and talk, like, please reach out, blah blah blah. And you know, other three. I mean I had 10% of all the clients like actually care enough to want to meet me, to be honest, it, it's just, you don't want to like. Think just cause that's what you do, that it's like really people care about it. Um, I'm kind of an invisible service like someone owns like a $5 million commercial building. We come and we mow the lawns, we keep everything clean. you're kind of an invisible service that they just kind of pay. That's like electricity. You don't notice it until somebody's not doing it. Exactly, and you want to be invisible, to be honest. Some, I mean, some of their clients are more high touch like they want to talk to you, they wanna. walk the property and all this stuff, but most of my clients aren't that way, um, but also when they call us, we're all over it, um, and handle it, um. So I also don't, I don't wanna like force myself to meet with him if they don't care enough to meet, you know. Yeah, they're just like, hey man, as long as you keep up the service, that's it, right? And that's mostly what we get from people like, hey, you know, that sounds good, man, like, you know, uh we need, you know, your W-9 and we need a Um, I forget that there's a few other pieces of paper. You also need, you know, to be additionally insured through your insurance policies and little paperwork stuff, but not like, you know, oh my gosh, you're the new owner. Oh this is so different. The dramatic change. This is gonna, most of them don't care and I really overestimated that. I was like, what if they leave and all this stuff. After the first time I realized I'm like, people don't care that much. I'm the one that actually cares cause I just wired all the money that I have, um, but yeah, they, most people just don't really care. Did you offer them anything else like seller financing or some other thing, and they just didn't want to take it? So, no, no, no, I, we did, I did seller finance on all my deals. OK, so how, what was that split? What did that look like? So, first one, yeah, I think it was like 25% uh seller finance. OK, um. And it's been about that or, yeah, around that for all of them. So, and the rest cash. OK, OK. So how did that second deal go? Where did you find that? The second one was the one that I, that the guy found me on business myself, when he had to like offload everything. That was the 2nd 1, OK, um, which was in LA, which is a little bit north of us, um. And then the third one was from Biz by cell, um. Which is, I mean they all were good deals for like different reasons, and they all had a different problem too that I had to solve once you got in, that you didn't find that you, there's no way you could have known in the due diligence. Yeah, so that is, uh, I had a mentor tell me it's like there's a puzzle in front of you. You just gotta figure out what the puzzle and solve where the pieces go. Yeah, every business has, like you just said, its own problem. You just have to solve that. Yeah, and I think when you solve it also is important. I think people don't talk about that enough, like, let's say the last business I bought. Um, The guy was great, everything was fine, um, got in the middle of it, uh, and the squirrel that was in there was he was paying these guys on Saturdays and he was paying them cash to work on Saturday. Um, and that wasn't in the books. That wasn't talked about in any meeting, anything, but we're already in this thing. I'm already in, so it's kind of a figured out thing. So, and knowing how these kind of employees are coming in and decided I'm gonna change everything right now, or I'm gonna change something to do with your check or your money, you could easily lose all your employees in a day, in a week, like all your key people, like you could, they could leave. So of course. The next day you'd love to like stop paying cash, make sure everyone's on payroll, just like everything else, but You kind of have to have more strategy. So what I was like, I was like in the, in the course of a year, by a year from today, I wanna try to be off this cash deal. I wanna make up. I gotta get to know the guys. That's the most important thing. Um, you you, you inherited the problem, you saw it, you knew it was a problem, but you didn't do anything about it so that They built trust in you that you're gonna fix it. Immediately. I didn't do it immediately just because it's already uh a change for these guys to have a new owner to have, you know, office staff that they never met, um, so they're just kind of a bit skittish, um. But so I kind of was like, first things first, like, these guys need to know who know who I am, know that I'm approachable, that I'm not, you know, the scary white boss. I'm like I'm just another guy. I'm just happen to be your boss, um, and I'm up in this, yeah, enough, um, my landscape Spanish is really really good kitchen Spanish sounds good, um, talking shit Spanish like level 10. Um, but, so I, I realized there was a problem, and I was like, you know what, over the course of the year. I want to transition out of that. I'll find a way, I'll, you know, and sometimes you almost have to just blame other reasons. Like, even though in the reality is it's like, hey, we need to not be using cash, like, everything needs to be above board. I don't play games like that. I, you know, we're gonna do everything on payroll. If you worked extra hours, it's gonna be overtime, it's gonna be time and a half. I have to pay workers' comp on every dollar of that payroll. I, I just don't mess around with that because I've worked with you, you can be getting a lot more trouble, especially if they got hurt on a Saturday. all that stuff. So I've worked way too hard and put too much money in to like have to not do it the right way. That's I mean really the the previous owner was actually screwing them, paying in cash, like, OK, you're making cash in the short term, but if you got wounded, hurt, hey, I have no, I have no knowledge of that, right? He could back up, yeah, yeah, there's, there's, yeah, there's a plethora of problems with that, um, so what I ended up doing was I forget at a certain point, I was like, hey guys, like, you know, the accountants, you know, they're, they're not letting me do the cash thing anymore. Uh, we have to put it on payroll, you know, I'm sorry, man, I would love to do it, but, you know, I blame like the accountants, you know, the accountants will do whatever I tell them to do, but I, you know, I'm just kind of like making me not be the bad guy on this one, make the invisible person that they don't know. And, you know, they kind of came around to it, but they trusted me, they knew who I was, they knew I wasn't, you know, trying to screw him. Did you ask for their input to help solve it, or you waited? So I waited and then I thought about how to approach it, and then I approached the guy who was basically the account manager, kind of like the ringleader guy of the that group, and I told him about it, I'm like, hey, this accountant is really breathing down my neck. We really have to get out of the cash thing. Because they're really on me about it. Um, so, you know, I just wanna let you guys know in the next few weeks we're gonna have to transition that over. And he was like, you know, I get it, no, no problem, you know, um. Yeah, did you lose anybody? No? How, how did that, the, how is that coming out was that that cash coming out of the business account? But where was it going? I like traced it doing an audit. Hey, we're paying employees. OK, so. How he, how is he doing it? Yeah, I well, I see it was how he's doing it. It was just getting taking cash out of the bank account and paying them in half, but somebody's gotta write an invoice for that. And cash going out like. Where's the expense going because he could have been just putting it in his pocket. Yeah, I think what he was taking it out of money that he had paid himself, which is stupid because it's like you're definitely, you're pulling out cash after tax pay, you know, it's just it's stupid. Um, I was lucky, so I Have part of my business that I'll renovate homes sometimes, uh, for landscaping. I love it because it's, there's no accounts receivable, um, and, you know, sometimes those clients will pay you in cash, um, which does help with that stuff, but it's, it's, it was just a pain. I don't like dealing with it at all. I much rather have a check for everything, let everything be on the books. It just having to set the book, it's just a mess. I, I don't, I don't like doing it. Yeah. So every, every business I bought has a different problem, but also it was great for a different reason. So that's, that's my experience. So where are you at now, the top line? Uh we're about like 4 4.5, 4.3 or something like that. Yeah, and then what about um 500, 600 in that range. Yeah, we'll see how the end of the year plays out, but are you, do you have plans to entertain private equity offers if you get to the 1 million? Or what do you want to do? I don't, I don't think so. I really enjoy it. I, I like not, I'm not. In a hurry to get big and have an even sell, you know, exit have an exit is is as exciting as that sounds to have an exit. I I don't know. I what would you do? I mean that's a great question. That's actually a bigger question. It's not, most people are like, Well, what about the money? I'm like, well, that's interesting, but what's a better thing I can do with my money, my after-tax money? And also, I'm running my lifestyle for my business, you know, so a lot of things that I'm paying for are pre-tax. So I, I'll tell you if there's an interview with the Tiger 21 guy that runs that, that's one of the biggest masterminds. He said, Usually an entrepreneurs make way much more money staying in their business that they grew, because once they sell and try to become an investor, they usually lose their money. And he, the people in his group are 100 worth 100 million or more billion. They are better entrepreneurs than they are investors. Absolutely, and I'm, I can only speak for myself, like, I know my niche. I know what I'm doing. That doesn't mean I know how to do a bunch of other stuff, um, or know, you know, which crypto to buy or which real estate to buy, or, you know, all this stuff. I'm not, I know my thing, my weird small niche, um, and staying in my lane has worked, so I'm not really gonna change that and, you know. I think it'd have to be like a huge number for me to think about getting out, you know, um, and even then it's like, you know, if you're making, let's say 2 million bucks you die, and they're gonna give you, let's say. 10 million bucks. You know, OK, so you, you're 10, you pay at least 3 in tax, maybe 4 in California, yeah. So let's say you're a genius and you walk with 6 million bucks. Um, You know, what am I going to put that into that's going to give me the same returns that I have. It's just not, and, and in my mind, it's like, OK, I could have run my business for, for 3 more years or 4 and like have my money back, you know. So it's kind of, I don't know, so you're kind of battling that, I think, back and forth. But I'm a long ways from that. So from even making that decision, but I have had a few people ask me to buy me out, which was, it was kind of cool, but I won't do it. But um. So now that you've bought 3 business, you started one organically and you bought 3 businesses, you've got a reputation for doing acquisitions. Are people coming to you now with, hey, I got this landscaping company, it's doing 1 million, top line 2 million. Are you interested? So, I have, um, it's kind of cool. I've, I've gone onto Twitter recently, uh, into the small business Twitter, uh, world, which is really neat. It's really cool to see other people doing stuff and um just being kind of transparent about how Those how that's going cause being an entrepreneur and also, you know, acquisition guy or searcher as you were saying, it's not. There's a lot of community, right? It's kind of like you're on your own and like you're on your own. You're yeah, Michael Gurley said like you you're alone. I mean, until you figure out you're hanging around with other business owners, you're alone. You really are, and, you know, it's um it's just a different path, you know, it's very different from most people's how they do things or how they look at things, um. But yeah, I've had, uh, you know, some really really cool connections on Twitter, different brokers, and, um, you know. It was pretty, I think I've had like at least a few deals got DM to me before they got listed. Um, to like, take a look at, uh, which was really cool. I mean, I was like, well, I think that's worth, that's worth having a Twitter like just because it's like 3 messages, right? Um. So that this is happening because you post on Twitter. I, I guess, I mean, what I just posted about like how I've done acquisitions. I've done some of these podcasts and talk about a little bit and um people kind of like tag me and stuff like, hey, you gotta get connected to this guy, or, you know, it's really cool cause it is kind of its own weird slice of Twitter. It's like this just small, I guess I gotta get more uh used to I I have an account and I post there automatically from all my posts, but I'm not getting that kind of traction and it's. I don't know. I, I laughed about it. I had a friend who was like, man, like other business owner, he's like, hey, you gotta get on Twitter, man, you love it, all the stuff. I'm like, dude, I don't care what, you know, Kanye West is saying on Twitter or whatever, you know, I, I, I just don't, I don't care about it. I don't care to see the news. I don't, I don't, I don't need that. Um, so he's like, no, no, it's all, you know, there's a bunch of business guys and they talk about different ideas and this kind of stuff. I'm like, OK, I'll try it. What's the what's the name of the thread? So it's not really a thread, it's really kind of like this big, I'd say like probably a few 1000 people um that are um it's basically SMB Twitter, so there's a Twitter, yeah, and if you go like, there's a few guys that you could go find that are kind of like they are connected to almost everybody. Girly is definitely one of them. Yeah, the Gurley, Girly said it's funny. I talked to him and he's uh he's not using LinkedIn. I go, LinkedIn is like the B2B social media platform here. There's 58 million businesses listed on B2B, and he's in the acquisition business, so, uh. I think you'd be surprised how many deals happen on Twitter. It's like unbelievable. Like you would be like, are you kidding me? Deals are happening on Twitter all the time. Uh, I gotta, I guess I gotta jump into it, like. Yeah, I even have another guy that I talked to frequently, um, who was at a big law firm who ended up leaving his law firm and now started his own law firm do it just based around small acquisition stuff, uh small the middle market, um, and I think I I haven't spoken with them yet, but they're so packed, they don't even know what to do, and they're not marketing like they're literally, it's almost all Twitter people. Uh, which is acquiring law firms or just acquiring anything? No, no, no, he, he started a law firm that they cater to guys doing acquisitions. OK, so they want to find like a searcher who's like, hey, like I wanna buy this um plumbing company in Des Moines, like, you know, can you help me out? And they will basically help them with all the paperwork and kind of walk through the process. Um, I don't know, it's interesting. So there's a lot of opportunity on Twitter, I think. Um, and a lot of like business happening, which you wouldn't guess, but definitely stuff happening. Let's say that, you know, you idolize the Warren Buffett where, you know, he comes to tap dances into work, uh, loves what he does, reads for four hours, takes a few phone calls and goes, have a, get a bunch of cokes and goes home. Where are you at with kind of structuring that where you have a bunch of general managers and you're working. You know, the time you wanna work. So, I I'm at a really good spot right now. So I have my office staff, my girls are very good. They're paid well, but they're loyal and they kick ass. Um, so my office stuff, phone calls, me, all that stuff is all, all paperwork is done by them, um, which takes a ton off my plate, and then I have basically like area managers for like the three main areas that we do work in, um, and I'd say. I'm working like 15 hours a week. You're working 15 hours a week? OK. So, and that goes back to your ID number, right? There's some people who are the same top line as me, but they try to say, oh well, I make 800K. Or I make like 750. I'm like, well, that's interesting, but you're literally working 60 hours a week, and you don't have the right people, you haven't hired the right people to be in the right spots, and it's not just about like, I want to work less, it's more about I got a lot of runway, so I, you know, growing to that 10 million will be a lot easier if I have the time to actually do it. Right, like, I'm meeting with a seller on Tuesday. It's not gonna happen if you're driving around the locations checking on people. Exactly. So I'm lucky I'm in this like weird middle ground where um I have a lot of runway and you know, I know that there's gonna be an acquisition easy in the next year I'm gonna buy something. I don't know what it's gonna be, maybe a bigger one with an SBA loan. I don't know, but I, I'm gonna be ready for it and um have the bandwidth to do it, cause if you don't have the bandwidth, like, You can't do acquisition, like, you're literally, if you're, you know, the water is up to here, how are you gonna grow? Like you just you don't have the energy or the time. Yeah. So who do you go to? I know your dad, uh, he's in, is he in private equity or what's he do? So he owns his own businesses, um, and he, he has probably 3 or 4. Yeah. Do you go to him for advice, inspiration, and Yeah, me and him are very, very close, but, you know, he lives 10 minutes down the road. Uh, also my brother, my younger brother, um, really freaking smart, uh, who hasn't done his first acquisition yet, but he's not far off. Yeah, well, what does he want to do it in? What he wants to get into something reoccurring like that reoccurring revenue, kind of like how I have the, the maintenance, uh mercial maintenance. What about pool pool supply stuff that's pools are tough, uh. Pools like the the margin isn't very good. There's a lot of add-on stuff like pool construction. There is money in it. It's just I don't know that I pay a multiple for a construction business, uh, that you have to keep bidding and winning, and especially a construction business when, you know, technically we are going into a recession. So, I've already heard like 10 people this morning say technically we are in a recession. I mean, what is it? 2 months of the You know, negative GDP. So yeah, so what does that mean for you? I mean, do they, people, when they start cutting back in a recession, where are you in the process of like, OK, we gotta, we're gonna cut our gym memberships, we're gonna cut landscaping, we're gonna cut our ice cream, Fridays, social Fridays, right? Um, so I am one of the last things, I'll be honest with you, because if you own a $5 million commercial building, um, you know, you might not re-slurry the parking lot. This year, right, you're like, oh, that's good enough, but you're still gonna mow the lawn and keep the weeds out and keep it clean, right? I mean, it's a $5 million building. Like, how do you not pay the guy $1000 to keep it clean? Yeah. Yeah, right. So I think that I'm one of the last people to get cut, um. With the maintenance stuff, which makes it so attractive, and that's why I think so much private equity money is chasing it because it's, it's just really diverse and it's really recession proof, super recession proof. Um, so I, I feel pretty good about it. I mean, I know a lot of people are freaking out about the recession or maybe further than that, but I mean this is why I got into this business is to be ready for these, so. Um, you know, a lot of people got COVID, you know, crushed them and all stuff, and I literally didn't change anything. I, we did the same stuff, just kept going, kept going. Um, do you, when you go have your people do the job. Uh, how do they know like the property manager is checking to do their job? Do you send them pictures? Do they visit once a month, or how do, how do you know that that that happens and you feel comfortable, like, hey, you know, here's your schedule to clean the bathroom, you know, are you on schedule? So, uh, luckily we don't clean bathrooms because that would be, I was just kind of I always walk in a like if you walk in a restaurant and they have over there, yeah. So, normally property managers are um stretched too thin to be checking properties um that they don't have issues with. That's my experience. Um, so if, if there's a squeaky wheel, they're gonna go. And my goal is to have our guys do a good job where there isn't any squeaking wheels and they just pay the bills. So, um, it's pretty infrequent that I have a project manager say, hey, I'm at the property and it doesn't look very good. I mean, I get one of those emails once a year, maybe. Uh there, it's very infrequent, but also I, I pay my guys well. I, I try to retain the best people I can, and, you know, I just don't cut corners on stuff. I don't like, hey, like this property really needs two guys for the whole day to work on it. I'm not like, well, just send, send one so I can like make more money. In reality, I'm making more problems for myself because the property is gonna start looking like shit. Oh yeah, uh, and then I'll end up in a bit yeah. Exactly, it's just short term thinking and I'm, I'm a long term player. I, I don't. Are you in any masterminds? No, not any. I eventually I wanna get in YPO. I really wanna go on YPO. I have a few friends, uh, they're older that have that have been in it that are really big on it, um. But uh I'm not in Vage. Uh, have you heard of that visage? I've heard of visage and then uh what's the other one? um. Another one that's like for smaller than YPO um. Uh, I have the name written down. I know who you're. This is is definitely one of them I've, I've heard about. Um, I've thought about it, you know, I I don't know. I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. I just, I knew YPO YPO is a really good one, but I've that I've heard from personal people that I know, um, that they really talk highly of it, but um. Yeah, I mean. Well, man, I, I gotta tell you, this is like, it seems like it's swimming along, you're working on your 4th acquisition from your original platform company and Some good advice, man. The real world. So I really appreciate the time you spent with me. Yeah, man, it's, it's journey and, you know, it's uh it keeps me on the toes and I have fun with it. So I think as long as you're having fun and making money, you know, keep doing it. Yeah, so you wanna plug anything? I, I like, I have it like, do you wanna plug your Conner landscaping and, yeah. So, uh, just my Twitter, uh, Twitter has signed the fronts, it's a, uh, it's kind of an homage to my dad. My dad would always come home and say, you know, hey. You know, sign a lot of the fronts of the checks today, you know, cause it means he's paying people and not getting paid. Um, so I'm, you know, I'm just signing the fronts, Mike. So I kind of was like, oh, it's actually kind of a funny little one. So that's why I made my Twitter handle is sign the fronts. Sign the fronts at sign the front. Nice. Michael, thank you so much for the time. Yeah, man, thanks for having me on. All right, take care. All right, see you, bye.